Raconteurminator
Raconteurminator
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Pre-MFT nerf, I think a very good argument could have been made that staying injured, against most Killers at least, was far too strong. Now, not so much. It's still very much risk vs. reward, but without MFT, the risk is much more present.
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Badham. It feels like a worse Haddonfield.
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@[Deleted User] said:
It's not about strength, though popular doesn't always mean strong and unpopular doesn't always mean weak. It's about forcing a stale game-state, it's about your team-mates having to run perks because your choice of perks and play-style are negatively impacting their game experience and harming the team overall. It's about Killers having to run perks to counter the fact that you're refusing to participate in normal game-play as much as humanly possible. So yes, if it became meta, it would be a problem, because every game would become massively tedious for everyone involved and would lead to the game being unplayble without 100% of players running the exact same required perks.
- Hide and seek is a part of normal gameplay. Because you dont like it dosnt mean its not a part of the game. When i was a killer main i found hide and seek games a lot more interresting than constant looping.
- I would argue that exaustion perks do exactly as you say, hammering the team - for people who are not as good loopers as others.
- As i said, if you cant find the players because if Distortion then its on you, perhaps you should look inwards instead of pushing blame for your own mistakes onto someone else?? because that is what you are doing right now. - I will not make a build for you, but i already gave you 2 perks that could circumvent it.
- As already i metioned 3 times already, and you choose to ignore all 3 times, everyone can choose to run the perk, if not running it gives them a problem, its their own fault (puching blame once again here).
With exhaustion perks, chases still happen, aggro is still drawn, participation still occurs and other team-mates have a chance to recover. Abandoning a chase because someone uses an exhaustion perk in an advantageous area doesn't mean Killers will choose to never chase those people again under any circumstances. That Survivor is still actively participating and taking some of the strain for their team. It is not the same as never being able to find someone and having to go after more visible players more often, or being targeted more often because of the selfish, non-participatory play-style of your own team-mates.
Chases also still aggro while people use Distortion lol, what kind of false claim is it that they dont?? i think i die 50%-75% of my games with Distortion.
When i ran Sprint Burst i could avoid a lot of chases, killer simply found someone else, so what is your point exactly? also again, stop pushing blame.
- Hide and seek hasn't been part of normal game-play for a long time, especially not to such an extreme extent.
- You could argue that, but it would also be a very poor argument, as you've evidenced by your less than brilliant attempts to argue it. Exhaustion perks do exactly the same as Distortion, "hammer the team"? Because some people aren't as good at looping as others? If you're making the exact same argument as me (your words, not mine), but for Exhaustion perks, and I'm pushing blame...
- Did I say I had problems? I was talking about the game-state as a whole. Attempting to establish superiority by misrepresenting me won't get you anywhere. Get off your high horse. Hilariously, this is also more of the "blame pushing" you're fond of accusing me of.
- No, I chose to ignore you twice. I addressed that point the first time. If the game-state becomes stale, unfun and anti-participatory, more people doing the thing that caused that game-state won't make it better.
Chases also still aggro while people use Distortion lol, what kind of false claim is it that they don't?? i think i die 50%-75% of my games with Distortion
And what kind of sentence was that? I'll respond to the bit that makes sense to me. You die in 50-75% percent of your Distortion games. This implies you have a higher win-rate when you're not using Distortion, also implying Distortion to be the cause of your increased losses. I will speculate that it's because it forces even Killers that don't want to tunnel to do exactly that. Your team-mates die because of the increased aggro while you hide and do gens; avoiding chases, avoiding hooks, avoiding interacting with the Killer. There is then nothing to stop that Killer from devoting the required time to find you. Like I said, pure speculation, but this is what makes the most sense to me.
When i ran Sprint Burst i could avoid a lot of chases, killer simply found someone else, so what is your point exactly? also again, stop pushing blame.
I already addressed this. "Abandoning a chase because someone uses an exhaustion perk in an advantageous area doesn't mean Killers will choose to never chase those people again under any circumstances. That Survivor is still actively participating and taking some of the strain for their team. It is not the same as never being able to find someone and having to go after more visible players more often, or being targeted more often because of the selfish, non-participatory play-style of your own team-mates."
You accuse me of pushing blame, yet your main response has essentially been, "lol if they don't want to get tunnelled because I'm hiding, they can run the same perks!" or, "If you have an issue with this, you're bad." What's that if not pushing blame? You're accusing me of what you yourself are doing. Ignoring what I've said, ignoring the points I've made while accusing me of ignoring the things you've said, accusing me of "blame pushing" while doing the exact same thing, etc. None of this makes for a great conversation I'm afraid. It's deeply, profoundly tiring and, if you're not going to stop it, then this conversation should stop.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3612374#Comment_3612374
If they were as strong, everyone would use them. They would be the meta all survivors (and then there would be no problem anyway) but they are not, only 10% use Distortion, and even less are using CS.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/A9IL9P2LIYCB/image.png
( Source - https://nightlight.gg )
I disagree, windows is so strong because if people run from loop to loop killer eventually give up and find someone else, becuase they cant catch you.
Also exaustion perks like sprint burst do have the effect you mention, killers give up chases because they know they will have to spend too much time on them and someone else is getting chased. Also adrenaline is the direct cause someone else is getting chased.
Not to mention the effect of 2 people with flashlights.
And for the 3rd time -
everyone are free to use Distortion if they have trouble with survival, no one stops them, if they choose not to do so, its a choice they made.Perks like Gearhead and Nurses calling burns through Distortion really fast, just to mention two.
You could also use perks like Discordance or Tinkerer to find people fast.
So If you cant find people because of disortion, its on you.
But hey, lets remove Lightborn and Iron Grasp, its impossible to save people from the killers with those perks, and Sloppy butcher, survivors dont have a chance to get healed up - its a tunneling perk. (this is Sarcasm to show a point btw.)
It's not about strength, though popular doesn't always mean strong and unpopular doesn't always mean weak. It's about forcing a stale game-state, it's about your team-mates having to run perks because your choice of perks and play-style are negatively impacting their game experience and harming the team overall. It's about Killers having to run perks to counter the fact that you're refusing to participate in normal game-play as much as humanly possible. So yes, if it became meta, it would be a problem, because every game would become massively tedious for everyone involved and would lead to the game being unplayble without 100% of players running the exact same required perks.
Your false equivalency isn't proving anything. Flashlights are nothing like people hiding all game and painting a target on everyone else by refusing to participate as much as possible. Lightborn doesn't discourage you from participating in chases, body-blocking, drawing aggro, etc. By its very nature, with a stealth build, you're going to be avoiding those things as much as possible, increasing the pressure on the rest of your team significantly. If you're not taking chases, hooks or body-blocking, you're a dead-weight to your team.
With exhaustion perks, chases still happen, aggro is still drawn, participation still occurs and other team-mates have a chance to recover. Abandoning a chase because someone uses an exhaustion perk in an advantageous area doesn't mean Killers will choose to never chase those people again under any circumstances. That Survivor is still actively participating and taking some of the strain for their team. It is not the same as never being able to find someone and having to go after more visible players more often, or being targeted more often because of the selfish, non-participatory play-style of your own team-mates.
There's a difference between perks and items limiting particular instances of how the player participates and interacts with others and reducing your own participation and interaction to almost zero, much to the detriment of your own team.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3612318#Comment_3612318
As i said, everyone are free to use Distortion if they have trouble with survival, no one stops them, if they choose not to do so, its a choice they made.
Do you also think Windows of opportunity and Lithe should get nerfed, because people that use them have a higher escape rate and the killer will most likely go for the team mates that dont use them?? (same logic)
Windows of Opportunity/Lithe may indeed lead to a higher escape rate (citation needed), however, it also isn't directly the cause of everyone else dying. I'll wager that no Killer ever has gone, "Hmm, Lithe. I guess I'd better not chase them again." I know I've never done that, nor has any Killer in any game I've ever had.
Killers will, however, say to themselves, "Two people are running excessive stealth perks, I've not even seen them yet, so I'd better put extra focus on who I can find." If you're not being chased, someone else is taking your chases. If you're never getting hooked because you're hiding all game, someone else is taking your hooks and dying. People with Windows/Lithe are at least starting chases and drawing heat from the Killer.
Distortion essentially forces Killers to tunnel even if they don't want to tunnel or forces Survivors to run a perk they might not want to because Blendettes are costing them games on the regular. I don't think, "Oh, everyone can use this perk and we'll all crab-walk around the map and drag the game out for an inordinate period of time" is the answer to excessive stealth, much like how setting your house on fire isn't the solution to your house being on fire.
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Great idea.
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I assume there'd have to be preset pairs of Killers to play as, otherwise I find it hard to believe Survivors could win at all
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@AnnoyingNarrator said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3611548#Comment_3611548
That is because Proxy Camping is how a killer can effectively tunnel. These aren't two separate problems, there is a direct link between them. This statement is the equivalent of *rants about toolboxes while actually pointing out all the problems with gen rushing*. Tunneling out a survivor is the end goal of Proxy Camping. That is why tunneling is such an important part of the discussion.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3611549#Comment_3611549
Honestly, I probably could have phrased this better, but I still stand by the point. Proxy Camping is what can be called a "noob stomper" where it works best against teams don't have the ability or knowledge to counter it. So a more experienced team will be able to deal Proxy Camping, while newer players will get destroyed. Oh, and for the sake of being pedantic, this is an example of the fallacy fallacy, which is just fun thing to say.
It is a fun thing to say.
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I'm certain they relate to discounts and the time they have left.
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@AnnoyingNarrator said:
Right now, I think survivors are too strong. I think that if you are a killer, trying to play the game "fairly" (i.e. no tunneling, no camping) is a recipe for failure. This is because trying to beat a team, especially when they begin becoming competent, is really difficult. Right now, there is a lot of really interesting perk combinations that can lead to survivors pulling off some really cool plays and most lower tier killers don't have the tools to recover from these.
So why give them them the chance? Proxy Camping is, in my experience, the most powerful killer tactic in dbd. Why? Because Proxy Camping turns a game of skill between two players into a game of "do you have the right perk" for one player. If a player who is hooked does not have the off the record or ds, then unless someone uses resurgence correctly, then the survivors are put in a huge disadvantage. It is effective because as a killer, chasing someone who is injured and closer to death is almost always better than chasing a full-health, unhooked survivor.
This is a problem that can't be fixed by perks, because if you make a perk like ds too strong to counter proxy camping, survivors will abuse the perk in other situations. I don't blame the survivors for this, because trying to maximize your chance of survival is completely fair to me.
"But Narrator," says that killer main, "Who cares about those evil survivors, proxy camping helps us killers (who are oppressed by society) win against those evil sweaty teams!" Of course, anyone who is more experienced understands that this statement is completely false. Proxy Camping doesn't work against sweaty teams, because they can use the few counter to proxy camping effectively. A sweaty SWF will use perks like resurgence to win, while the Solo Q player get curb stomped.
What Proxy Camping actually does is push survivors to just rush gens, because if you don't get at least three or four gens done by the time that Dwight gets downed 5 times in 4-5 hits (or just killed themselves), then you will lose the game. All Proxy Camping does is push both sides to be the most boring versions of themselves.
So, how do you fix proxy camping?
The answer is that you need to make killing a survivor early on to be a bad option.
I am not going to state what the answer is because I don't know what it would exactly be. I think having a system where each killer has different answer to that question might be looking into, but that is a question that is going to be difficult to answer.
But what is not difficult to see is how Proxy Camping makes the game worse for both sides. It pushes both sides to be, well, just the worst. While I have seen defenses for choosing to Proxy Camp, I have yet to see a good defense for its existence. It's mere presence distorts the game's balance, and removing it will, in long term, lead to both sides having more fun.
"But Narrator," says that killer main, "Who cares about those evil survivors, proxy camping helps us killers (who are oppressed by society) win against those evil sweaty teams!" Of course, anyone who is more experienced understands that this statement is completely false. Proxy Camping doesn't work against sweaty teams, because they can use the few counter to proxy camping effectively. A sweaty SWF will use perks like resurgence to win, while the Solo Q player get curb stomped.
A strawman into an appeal to authority, impressive.
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@_Onyx_ said:
@Raconteurminator My issue with Trickster, ever since the first tweaks and that carries over into current Trickster's state of play, is that the Devs saw Survivors issue vs him and thought "He needs to have less Blades" the throw speed is the issue imo. It's like I touched on in my rant, it's almost like Survivors have less input in the chases vs Trickster now. If they do manage to avoid his Blades (which good players will learn to do or are already doing) then they get about 5-10 seconds longer in a chase. When imo they should have more stuff available to them in order to hold their own against the onslaught of Blades. Getting the balance between Trickster being able to be a huge threat in chase while Survivors knowing there are things they can do to manipulate a chase on their end too, outside of the simple: wiggle side to side, hesitation at corners and gaps, crouching at small tiles every step or so etc. I'm aware my gripe with Trickster is a heavy bias from my vision of what the killer could be, but I also think that the point that Trickster has been gutted from the standpoint of "they traded his fun uniqueness for a Basic version of 1v1 strength" still holds merit.
@OrangeBear nah I haven't, I played the previous iteration and was actually unaware of Trickster adjustments this patch. I'll play as him and see if that changes anything about what I think about him from the as and vs perspective. Just for my own state of mind in this conversation, what is your build for Trickster, mine centre around detection and minimising time wastes with reloads and rotating pressure (Knock Out, Iron Maiden, Ultimate Weapon and Darkness Revealed atm)
@Vanishlord fair enough lol Trickster was definitely one of those chapters that really kept me drawn to dbd, so seeing all the different things that have happened to him makes it hard for me not to wish for bigger and better things with him lol
I'll be the first to admit that oftentimes I'll focus far too much on the positives of something at the risk of ignoring the negatives, so I'm not exactly bias-free myself. I certainly do understand your point, though.
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@MrDrMedicman said:
Because slugging is a really evil way to play that's not fun for survivors, and dying on the ground prevents you from getting bps
It's a final screw you to the most toxic type of killer who is ACTIVELY harming the game by playing this way
Is this the new forum meta? First it was calling Killer players mentally ill because they played in a certain way, now it seems to be an increase of people throwing the word 'evil' around. I'll take a thousand matches where I get slugged over the ridiculous trend of trying to denigrate people in the worst possible ways for playing a game in a way some people don't like.
If you've reached the point where you're comparing any legitimate play-style to being evil in even the loosest sense, maybe you've reached the terminus; your journey in DBD is over, get off the bus.
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@_Onyx_ said:
I was always one of those Trickster players that loved the way he was in initial release. The recoil was awful and Main Event was borderline useless, but I loved the amount of Blades he had and the fact Survivors needed to loop every tile slightly differently in order to withstand the barrage he rained upon them.
Then they changed him to reduce his amount of Blades but increased number values for Main Event and damage output.
Now they have made his Main Event very spam-able, but all of the thrill of seeing Survivors duck and weave is gone because the recoil is gone too, so Survivors now drop very quickly in loops that they could have used for at least 5 or so seconds longer if they didn't dodge and weave enough. On top of that, it almost feels like you aren't encouraged to actually use his power much either. The low amount of Blades and the slow throw rate almost make it seem like the Devs want Survivors to be able to drag you to strong(ish) tiles and eat a Basic before the blades come out, which is contrary to what all Trickster players have ingrained into their muscle memory. Before we would always "spam" until the first hit and then try to close the distance with a Basic or keep spamming if need be.
Ultimately it feels like they removed all style and flexing with Trickster. It isn't worth trying to hit sly shots through gaps because you run out of Blades a lot by doing so, and the Laceration timer goes away so quickly that the only add-ons worth using are Laceration time extension. Which, surprise surprise, makes it so trying to use ricochet or piercing Blades, the add-ons that drastically alter the Trickster experience, are not gonna be seen or desired anymore.
Very disappointed by the way they have essentially gutted him. The Devs speak like they understand what Trickster players want but then you realise they think we just want quick damage with little effort via throw speed. And then after seeing how god awful of an experience that is as Survivor they change him to make him throw slower but Main Event be slightly more threatening. No, what Trickster players want is to know we can try to throw Blades in multiple different ways in a chase without fear of being crippled by missing one too many due to running out of Blades or Laceration decaying. If Trickster had 99 Blades, Survivors needed 8 Blades to be damaged and Laceration started to decay after 15 seconds of no Blades hitting them at 1 Blade every 2 seconds (so it would take 28 seconds at most of them not being hit by a Blade in order for Laceration expire), Then they could even make it where being healed accelerates Laceration decay too in order to add more depth to chase manipulation on the Survivor side, I would see that and think "yeah, this is a fun Trickster. Maintaining strength but also not feeling like he is gonna get you at every tile and there isn't a damn thing you can do aside from maybe avoid a couple of the Blades by crouching and hesitating your rotation.
This is a very long rant lol and I apologise for that @Vanishlord
I might make a post detailing my dream Trickster, but we'll see if I get around to it, since the Devs probably are done touching Trickster for a good few years now. This is most likely how our K-Pop star will remain sadly
They buffed his base throw speed to just under what it was with Memento Blades previously, so now his throw speed with them is 0.27. PTB Trickster was 0.25. They also reverted the laceration changes.
PTB Trickster was broken (mostly an add-on issue), live was massively underwhelming, but current is overall a massive improvement.
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I'm pretty sure if you frequently make false reports you just get spam-filtered. If someone is the type to proudly announce that they've reported you for any of the things explicitly stated on the report form to be non-reportable, they're probably already on the ignore list.
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You know what actually protects hackers? The hundreds of burner accounts they can make when Epic give the game away for free. If someone is cheating or breaking the rules, they can still be reported. You don't need their username or access to their Steam profile. In fact, if someone is saying things in chat that are against the TOS, you don't even need to provide evidence when you report them because the chat logs are viewable at Behaviour's end.
Anonymous mode has zero downsides for anyone that doesn't like to leave childish -rep comments (that can be deleted and are therefore pointless anyway) or bring grievances into new matches.
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At last, someone asking serious questions around here!
I find popcorn to be mostly the same except for seasonings, at least close enough to make no real difference. Some salt and butter, and you'll be hard pushed to tell the difference between the cheaper and more expensive ones.
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@Kunuto said:
This is what I consider a fun match:
https://youtu.be/kn5DUdbZlAI?si=rlTv_GpfONRN1vVx
Full control is established before any gens are completed. After that it is just fun and play, having a good time.
Mikaela didn’t know how to loop, gave away 2 free hits, second of which she just stood still for. Bill ran up to you and took a free hit and then promptly dead-zoned himself, someone stayed hiding in a locker after they saw you checking lockers, David ran right into you going for a save, etc. Gens were repeatedly exploding because of numerous botched skill-checks, so clearly there was little experience on the Survivor side.
You carried multiple people past pallets without checking if anyone was near for the save. Other small things like using static blast while facing in a direction that you know nobody is in, which just wastes time. Without spamming the static blast or your aura perks, you seemed to have little ability to find anyone that didn’t run into you face-first.
Your entire strategy falls to pieces the moment a semi-competent team comes along. You’re talking like you’re the Big I Am, but really all you’ve done is creatively tank your MMR to keep yourself in lobbies with people that actively choose to dead-zone themselves or stop mid-chase.
You think everyone was having fun? People were coming to you to be hooked at one point. They only started throwing snowballs because that was literally the only thing you'd let them do. You were refusing to kill people while also refusing to let them finish even a single generator until YOU had had YOUR fun (and you still couldn't resist pulling people off gens only to immediately drop them). You’ve lowered your MMR so you can bully weaker/new players and clearly keep them in a match longer than they’d like.
And then the best part: you let them all go. You’re reducing your MMR to the lowest possible point so you can bully people and delude yourself into thinking you’re fantastic. Actually, I’ll take that back. The best part is you got to P100 on Doctor by bullying people that are clearly new to the game.
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@Kunuto said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3609311#Comment_3609311
Lol. It would be too easy if I did not follow my codex.
To rag on people needlessly it is, then.
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@Kunuto said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3598390#Comment_3598390
Gimp yourself? I play by these rules and I have had full control of every match I've been in for as long as I can remember. Gimp yourself? No, your killer skills ain't just good enough.
I wonder. Do you follow your self-imposed rules because you feel it the right thing to do, or do you follow them so you can tell other people you follow them? It seems like you're just using the Codex Hamstringicus to rag on people at this point. If following those rules gives you a sense of contentment, cool beans, but the way to raise yourself up isn't to drag others down.
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@SirXenomorph said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3607539#Comment_3607539
Look I get you. But I do not agree. When I as a beginner can manage to play fair you can do too. If you lose that much it sure can become a bit demoralizing. But if you start with it what will it give to you? Are you really think that it is better to do it like that then? If so I do not blame you for your decision, even I do not agree with that. If I see they are not to get and rush Gens so what? I am just not able to get them then. Or at least not all of them. It is okay. Maybe it just come down to your own principles. I for myself have decide never to do such thing. And that is just me. I do not say you have to do the same.
I just ranted with my post over there, that I think it is too much if almost every killer does that for no real reason. But it is not effective not efficent or whatever it simply is not. It is just lazy.
Being a beginner, you're going to be at a very low MMR, and that's fine. However, you're committing to tactics that rapidly fall off in effectiveness the higher you rise in MMR - you're effectively hamstringing yourself and keeping your MMR low. You're keeping yourself at a level where going for 12-hook games can consistently work because the majority of people you face haven't stopped running into walls yet. And you know what, that's also fine. Basically admitting you know nothing and then trying to lecture people with more experience as Killer than you, less fine.
"If I can do it, so can you," isn't an argument, it's a fallacy.
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Thing is, decreasing the MMR gain of anyone that tunnels or slugs (good luck programming that) would have the opposite effect. People would be encouraged to tunnel and slug because it would hinder their MMR growth, allowing them to play at a level they were happy at for much, much longer.
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@OrangeBear said:
Wait, there's add-ons that make him usable right now?
They buffed Memento Blades from 5% to 10%. It's not great as solutions go, but not terrible.
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I don't know how much work it'd be to add, but it would be ridiculously good.
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Legion with Frank's Mixtape.
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I don't think it's all your fault, but I do think it's some of your fault. That's a nasty 3-gen that, while you didn't put it there, you did commit your time and resources on all the safer gens first. Preemptively shooting down reasonable criticism as bias worth ignoring doesn't help you. It doesn't change the fact that you all had an opportunity to go for it early but didn't. I'd wager there was a nice view of it from where the free generator that people like to do first spawns, so it's not like you could have missed it.
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Nope.
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Happened to me earlier. Wasn't great.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3601878#Comment_3601878
His problem is not chases, he has no map pressure. Clown is weak for same reason. Strong chase but weak pressure
If it was just map pressure, why did they choose Trickster above all the other Killers with pressure issues, to attempt to fix first? He was consistently under-performing even amongst the chronic under-performers is why. He certainly wasn't consistently anywhere near as strong as you claim him to be.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3601857#Comment_3601857
Not really.
Trickster is already an extremely oppressive killer in the chase. You will down no matter what. PTB version made it even worse and more annoying.
They better just leave this killer to die if they are not gonna rework his power. We don't need another DC monster like Dull Merchant.
If Trickster was extremely oppressive in chase and got downs no matter what, ask yourself, would his kill-rate and pick-rate have been so far down the toilet that Behaviour felt the need to make adjustments to him ahead of numerous other Killers? The only issue PTB Trickster had was his add-ons, the only issue he has now is the fire-rate. If Trickster was downing Survivors no matter what, then no matter what they must have been running in a straight line.
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@Paternalpark said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3601666#Comment_3601666
Survivors have to play as if the killer will slug or camp or tunnel. And that's not even a perk slot used.
If killers proxy camp then 2 survivors should come for the rescue. If they tunnel survivors should smash gens.
Just as killer had to wait out dh, survivors have to circumvent any of these strong plays. It's no different.
Oh, I see. It doesn't relate all that much.
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@Paternalpark said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599390#Comment_3599390
Survivor has to assume killers will tunnel,slug or camp. It's no different to waiting out dh.
Okay, but how does that relate to what I said?
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@mikewelk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599755#Comment_3599755
How would you rework it though? I'm struggling to see how you could prevent tunneling whilst maintaining the health of the game simultaneously. I think DS was fine when deactivated during endgame and the nerf later on was unexpected and uncalled for. I don't really believe a perk should be responsible at combatting such an unfun playstyle to face and would desperately want a game mechanic to address that since perks can obviously be problematic as much as they are useful. But, then again, game mechanics will need to adress if someone is actually getting tunneled at five gens which might be difficult to do with DBD's spaghetti code.
You've already hit the nail on the head, I think. If it is deemed that tunnelling is a big issue, by Behaviour, not the average forumite, it shouldn't come down to a pay-walled perk to fix it. It should be a transparent mechanic that everyone is fully aware of at all times. However, if it's just the reworking of the perk, I also believe transparency is the key. Letting the Killer know that someone has Decisive Strike, say with a buffed effect, would be an extra deterrent on top of the actual effect. No wondering if they have it, no forcing counter-play for an out-of-play perk, no weaponising it to bully people that aren't tunnelling, just a simple warning. Let them know that they can commit to the chase but also let them know it's going to be a bad time if they do.
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@SirXenomorph said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3600493#Comment_3600493
Yeah in that case I am with you. That is a statement which explains it in a good way. It is up to the situation. I also be not nice, even though I do not tunnel than I just got the survivors really fast in that cases, when I for example see that all survivors want to start with flashlights, that always make me suspisious and I want them all to hang as fast as I can, cause in my very first killer round I got a bully squad who do not let me do a single thing without get blinded. So I will be a mean killer when I see all flashlights. From time to time I think it is impossible to avoid tunneling. But my critique goes out to these who do that on purpose every time. And not even that also camping all survivors and slugging, I also had that very often. Killers who than also made a fun out of it. I am sad to say it is at the moment the majority of killers I faced.
Sure thing you are right. That is why I also just said it is not necessary to change the game for it. It is just these killers who do it all the time who should rethink. And since there are plenty of dirty survivors as well it is maybe the best to spare that out for these guys. At least I do it that way. I will be a menace to these survivors who try to annoy the hell out of me, even I do play nice. In the beginning I do give a fair chance. But I am traumatized by these flashlights, so these do make me mad all the time, that will bring you in big danger when having me as a killer haha.
Sry when I wrote it like a attack to you. I just think tunneling should be the exception. And like you said, you are no killer who does this all the time. So do not feel meant by my words.
Sry when I wrote it like a attack to you. I just think tunneling should be the exception. And like you said, you are no killer who does this all the time. So do not feel meant by my words.
I get it, it's a game you enjoy and have strong opinions about. No harm done, but thank you for the apology anyway.
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@SirXenomorph said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3600412#Comment_3600412
So for you it would be "intentionally hamstringing" to stop tunneling, cause it is just normal for you? And you do not think it is kinda a weak playstyle?
For me it is dirty, since it shows that you can not let the just hooked person a fair chance to recover. If you just tunneling every single survivor till the survivor is sacrificed it is not a good playstyle it is the most lame and boring one. Cause you can not go in the time for others, because this one would be a safe kill now so yea make your game easier still unfair though. You know there is a reason why this kind off stuff is called toxic killer behaviour right?
But if I just get your agrument here a bit wrong please tell me. Cause for me it sounds like that for you all these tunneling, camping and slugging and so on is just your normal playstyle. If I get it right okay, than tell me where this stuff is fair at all?
But if I get you wrong on your statement just tell me.
To be so against tunnelling that you're willing to force yourself into a 12-hook game for people that won't even appreciate it, yes, that's hamstringing yourself. Tunnelling is 'normal' for me in the regard that it's something I'll use when I feel it appropriate, but it isn't something I rely -- or need to rely -- on. If I don't feel it necessary to tunnel for 40 games, I won't. If I do feel it necessary, I'll do so without compunction. I don't go into games with the intention of tunnelling anyone and impacting their experience, but neither do I go into games with the intention of making myself miserable and impacting my own with arbitrary limitations.
I do what I feel is best when I feel it best to do so, and I expect no less of anyone else. Try your best and, if that doesn't work, adapt what you're doing and continue to try your best; Survivor or Killer.
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@SirXenomorph said:
Still tunneling is a dirty way to play. I play killer and survivor kinda equal and I NEVER tunnel survivors I just hooked. Even when I see them after they got down, I just go after the person who get the hooked one down again or just go somewhere else to get some others. I also have to admit I most of the times play a nice killer as well. I saw a lot of very very bad killers, these who just tunneling, camping, slugging and so on so I decided to go more the kind way and even when I do not play kind I never do that kind of stuff.
So the easiest solution for killers who does this things must not have to be some game changes, it mostly would just be good if the players themselves start to think about how they play the game. The same goes for survivors as well. I also have seen very lot survivors who play dirty as hell. Look it is okay that you as killer want to get all survivors it is what the game is about. But still you can look to keep it fair still. If not you may be have to deal with it that you are a dirty killer and have to deal with the point that you are not even a good killer, since you rely on these kind of things to get the survivors at all. So if you can not change your dirty playstyle then you do not have to wonder when the developers someday will change stuff ingame to prevent you from doing it.
If you do not want changes like this to happen someday, JUST PLAY FAIR and if not deal with it as soon as it happens.
Not intentionally hamstringing yourself isn't playing dirty.
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@mikewelk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599680#Comment_3599680
Is it a better idea to buff DS or let tunneling flourish as it currently does at five gens? Dead hard was strong not because you had to expect it from everyone. I faced it in its prime and it wasn't hard to bait. One second of baiting didn't punish me as a killer at all. The strong part about it was the distance which wou couldn't do anything about.
You do get punished if you don't think about Unbreakable. Why do you think SWF use it? They are always there for the save which forces killers to pick up quickly or slug which Unbreakable takes advantage of. Therefore, you do indeed play in a particular way to mitigate the chance of them using the perk or getting flashlight saved.
A huge chunk of your gen regresses even more if you don't expect Pop. Killers run it pretty often, almost as often as old DS, so you are forced to make a decision based on the chance of a perk.
People used DS because they were tired of the tunneling and it got the job done.
False dichotomy right there. You can rework Decisive Strike in a way that helps combat tunnelling without giving it a flat buff that's unhealthy for the game. As I said, Dead Hard was strong for many reasons, forcing counter-play when it wasn't even equipped was one of them because it benefited people not even using the perk. I can support mitigating tunnelling without being all for a terrible idea to do it. Being against A doesn't mean I automatically support B.
Flashlight saves are part of normal game-play, SWFs being tedious and trying to prevent pick-ups is part of normal game-play. It's not Unbreakable that gets someone off the ground in those scenarios. Even if you leave that person to commit to a full chase, it's nearly always someone else that gets them up outside of particular scenarios where multiple people are on the ground. Unbreakable isn't nearly as common as Decisive Strike or Dead Hard were in their prime, either.
We're not even disagreeing on the core point here, we're disagreeing on the how.
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@mikewelk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599629#Comment_3599629
Why though? You can be paranoid of Unbreakable and pick people up quickly off the floor and yet the perk isn't anyhting crazy. You can be paranoid of every perk. Should all perks stop existing? Lets look at the killer side. If I'm paraanoid about Pop, I won't touch a regressing gen so it doesn't regress further. That gives the killer value without it even being equipped.
Other than hook someone, which you'll be doing 99% of the time anyway, Unbreakable does not force you to play a particular way even if it's present in the game. Pop also doesn't require you to play in a way to counter it on the off chance the Killer has it. Decisive Strike, like Dead Hard, forces you to play in a way that would counter it even if no-one has it equipped. Why do you think a perk should provide value by modifying a player's behaviour when it's not equipped?
It's not paranoia for a perk, it's being forced to play in a particular way because A) the perk exists B) it might be equipped and C) you'll be punished if you don't. That's bad design, and buffing DS to the point it sees regular use with its current effect is a bad idea.
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@mikewelk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599390#Comment_3599390
All you have to do is not tunnel, I don't get where the huge problem is here. If you're asking yourself if they have DS, you probably did just that.
You missed the point by a mile. Perks should not ever give you value when you do not have them equipped, they should not ever give you value because you might have them equipped. A perk like that, even if not functionally broken, is mechanically broken and shouldn't exist.
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I'd take a really small Khezu.
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Decisive Strike right now is an underused perk and, unless it gets a substantial rework, that's where it should stay. It's not functionally broken but it is mechanically broken. What do I mean? Perks should only ever impact the game-state when they're in play, not out of the possibility of them being in play. One of the (many) reasons Dead Hard was unhealthy for the game was that not only was it outlandishly powerful, it also forced you to play in a specific way to counter the possibility of someone having it equipped.
If Decisive Strike functions exactly the same way as it does now and simply gets a numbers buff or an additional effect that propels it back into common (or even semi-common) use, players are going to get utility from it without even having it equipped. I don't think that's healthy perk design.
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I have a rule book, well, it's more of a pamphlet.
- Find the Survivors
- Kill the Survivors
@HugTechLover said:
My only codex - The first survivor that hangs once… will hang thrice, before any other survivor hangs once.
Obligatory: you're a monster, won't someone please think of the children, etc.
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@Hex_Ignored said:
the 4.6 ms is in my opinion problematic. Ranged killers are balanced around the fact that they can injure survivors from a distance, so having a ranged killer with 4.6 ms makes trickster really unfun to play against. On short wall loops, he still just downs you with blades with little to no counterplay and on the previously somewhat safe high wall loops he just chases like a normal m1 killer to force a quick pallet drop and hit the survivor with blades while they're moving to the next tile.
If it makes you feel better, he's not fun to play as now either.
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@eyeroll said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3587854#Comment_3587854
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3588416#Comment_3588416
LOL look at the latest patch notes (7.4.0 Chucky) when referring to bots they specifically use "anti-camp". "Bots are once again self-unhooking, having been disrupted by the anti-camp measures.
Well, new user, my response is the same as it was to the "other" guy. I'll take the hundreds of times Behaviour called it Anti-Facecamp (including its own release patch notes) over the five or six times there was a typo. I'll take all the times staff called it Anti-Facecamp on the forum and all the times they explained their reasoning behind the system and explicitly talked about facecamping.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3594982#Comment_3594982
You're a monster.
I prefer "Deeply unethical but very funny."
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@lifestylee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3594859#Comment_3594859
Cakes sounds yummy.
@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3594859#Comment_3594859
No no no no no no noooooo! You can'ty say that. What do you think @HugTechLover is going to do now? Blight mains are known to 'consume' a bunch of weird stuff and telling them, that this is called "cake" will only lead to them getting the munchies.
Don't do it, friend. Don't. Do. It. 🤢
Clearly too late. I'm a terrible influence. The red ones are strawberry scented.
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@Astel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3594925#Comment_3594925
I mean, even Freddy and the Pig are 115%.
In all fairness, Freddy and Pig can't tonk you in the back of the head from 20ft.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3594508#Comment_3594508
That- That is no soap... It's usually used for toilets. That adds even more to the filthy part. 🤢
Regarding Nurse, I agree. Yesterday, 1 survivor almost escaped through hatch and they did 1 entire gen with only 3 BNPs! This traumatised me. I will never be quite the same.
I feel this topic will be much better if I mention the things they use in toilets are called 'urinal cakes.'
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I do wonder how they intend to do this. A lot of 3-gens are, whether people want to admit it or not, caused by the Survivor side opting to immediately do the generators that are essentially 'free.' At that point, the Killer guarding those generators until they can regain some lost pressure -- advancing their power, making Survivors use their items to depletion, inflicting multiple status effects or injuries, etc. -- and find an opportunity to push that advantage is perfectly fine.
Going into a match with the express intention of dragging things out for as long as possible obviously isn't fine in the slightest. However, on the surface, how do you differentiate? Both Killers are mechanically doing the exact same thing. The difference is in the intention, which you have no way of gauging for several minutes at least.
When adding something to counter the latter, you have to consider both sides. If you add something with too extreme of an activation requirement, Killers that want to drag things out will be able to play around it to ensure maximum time wasted. If you make the requirement even close to reasonable, Survivors will find a way to weaponise it in the first 23 seconds of it being added. The worst case scenario with that is Survivors will knock out as many easy, safe generators as possible and rely on the game breaking the 3-gen for them.
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You went from "Survivor is no longer fun anymore" to "Tunnelling is a Joke" to "Killers! Let's all Tunnel, Slug, Hook and Repeat" in the space of three topics. My guy is out here speed-running their villain arc.
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I've read this three times now, and I can't see it as anything other than a massive nerf. I admire your commitment to this and the thought you've put into it, but I'm not sure it's a good idea. I guess look into the vaulting nerfs; 50% is an insane reduction. A fast vault is 0.5 seconds, Legion's vault in Frenzy is 0.9 seconds, while a normal Killer vault is 1.7 seconds. That nerf would bring his vault speed in Frenzy to just faster than a slow vault (1.5 seconds).