Devil_hit11
Devil_hit11
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all that stuff from OP post is true. freddy became garbage when his -action speed add-on were removed.
demo needs portals buffs, even reddit AMA was asking for this. I already suggested that demogorgon have base-kit lifeguard whistle add-on for portals and that his total portal count be increased from 6→11.
Alien's issue is that all his add-on are near garbage and the turrets are plain annoying for killer. I just wish he had like add-on like increase tail range by +2 meters and like grants +2% haste when in runner mode. like more useful stuff. Alien's add-on are like pre-reworked demogorgon add-on. just all super safe with nothing really attractive to use.
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@Neaxolotl said:
Visible hooks will help people NOT to tunnel, and tunnelers will not be affected because they only needs to memorize hook state of a single person
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756180#Comment_3756180
Those who forget to tunnel is never a hardcore tunneler and non issue anyway, incompetent tunneler is never a problem
your misunderstand my point. no UI creates inefficient tunnelers. The only people that are efficient tunnelers are tunneler that remember to tunnel and play around tunneling. Putting UI will make casual tunneler into hard-core tunnelers.
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@lettuchia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3755798#Comment_3755798
Victor's recall timer has always been 30 seconds no?
After rework, the recall was like 10 seconds. After that, it was nerfed back to 30 seconds.
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@Blueberry said:
Should be visible. If people are gonna tunnel, seeing it or not doesn't matter. All this does is help the killers that don't want to tunnel.
they're more likely to tunnel if they see it visibly attractive. With no UI, they might forget to tunnel.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756112#Comment_3756112
Tackling those both in order:
1: Okay, so, we've already covered that what made CoH so good was that it was FASTER than the 21 ish second timer due to it being stacked with other tools. People DID NOT rate CoH on a 21 second heal, because their heals with it were FASTER than 21 seconds. You can even go back in this forum's history and find people arguing that CoH is fine and doesn't need a nerf because that 21 second number is only alright - all of whom were obviously missing the problem that existed back then, because they were only considering CoH in a vacuum.
If it were used on its own, CoH was just "decent". The same way that what you're describing with Pharmacy would, in theory, be "decent". It wasn't strong, it was just usable. People made it strong by pairing it with their medkits and with other tools, and that is what made it so broken it needed to be nerfed.
What you're describing with Pharmacy is the worst case scenario of old CoH and a scenario in which that perk was just "fine". It's a viable niche strat for hyper coordinated SWFs, but it's outclassed by actually bringing altruistic heal perks instead of bending Pharmacy into being one. It's fine in a vacuum, but a waste of time compared to what you could be doing.
It's also still unhealthy for it to only be halfway decent in a coordinated four man, especially when even those players don't really want to bring it due to it being heavily outclassed by other options. That's still a good enough reason to rework it.
2: This just flat out isn't true. There are plenty of perks that are good for solo queue and that aren't too strong; even setting aside perks like Kindred and Bond that SWF generally don't want to use because of redundancy, there's also just… the usual suite of innocuous meta perks. Deja Vu, Resilience, Sprint Burst, Lithe, Distortion, Off The Record…
Then adding in the off-meta good perks like Lucky Break, Strength in Shadows, Wicked, Alert, Breakdown, Iron Will, Champion of Light, Quick & Quiet, Built to Last…
None of those perks require a SWF, they're all perfectly valid in solo queue. This pattern doesn't exist, the only way you could think that any perk which ends up being good for solo queue gets nerfed is if your bar for "good" is, y'know, broken stuff like old Background Player, or old Made For This + Hope, or old Dead Hard.
Things get nerfed if they're too strong overall, that isn't connected to whether they're good for solo queue or not.
People DID NOT rate CoH on a 21 second heal, because their heals with it were FASTER than 21 seconds. You can even go back in this forum's history and find people arguing that CoH is fine and doesn't need a nerf because that 21 second number is only alright - all of whom were obviously missing the problem that existed back then, because they were only considering CoH in a vacuum.
yes they did. in fact i would argue that faster healing wasn't reason why COH fell off as a perk. it was its ability self-care that was removed from the perk that made unpopular. Just look at nightlight stats. Self-care is 5.74% usage rate and Strength from the shadow is 3.74%. COH ranks as like 5th best healing perk if we just discount the number and just look at ordering. player is clearly prioritizing self-healing effect over anything else. We'll make it is the one exception that i do not want to go into large details. IF coh had self-heal component, player would likely still be using COH to this day.
What you're describing with Pharmacy is the worst case scenario of old CoH and a scenario in which that perk was just "fine". It's a viable niche strat for hyper coordinated SWFs, but it's outclassed by actually bringing altruistic heal perks instead of bending Pharmacy into being one. It's fine in a vacuum, but a waste of time compared to what you could be doing.
As stand alone perk with no items, pharmacy really isn't that bad. a portable self-heal that is moderate quick is decent. It is just that it is better to bring your own med-kit and spend 1 altruistic perk slot than it is to use this perk. that is why i said this perk really only shines in swf because you can equip 1 of this perk and than give your entire team self-care by opening the chests. this leaves room for your other teammate not need healing perks and perhaps choose other perks like anti-tunnel or generator progression choices.
As for why swf don't use this? well…. there is no reason to use it because…. 4 syringe+4 adrenaline is better than pharmacy. also using offering like that makes killer play more sweaty…. due to well.. suspect swf. med-kit in lobby? a lot less suspicious. probably just watch out for franklins.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756100#Comment_3756100
I strongly feel that no players, SWF or solo queue, would use Pharmacy this way if all that changes is that they can see the aura. It's still a waste of their time compared to almost any other healing option, altruistic or solo.
For the record, this isn't an instant heal, it's a slightly faster syringe that requires both opening a chest and rummaging it before you can even do the animation to start the timer. It's not instant like Adrenaline, and it's also not instant to start like a syringe.
Pharmacy has prep time: You need to find and open chests, and I'm pitching adding rummaging to that too.
In order for the perk to be viable after the prep time, it MUST provide a heal that's faster than options which don't require prep time, IE, medkits. The only exception to this was old Circle of Healing, which had its own unique approach + was broken because it provided WAY faster heals anyway.
The only two ways to make Pharmacy's current design halfway appealing is to either have it buff medkits directly (a terrible idea for a wealth of reasons) or to make it provide a heal that isn't tied to a medkit + is faster than a medkit to counteract the extra time investment. I lean towards the latter, obviously.
As an aside, I don't want it to be only useful or viable for SWFs, I want it to be useful for solo queue as well.
the prep time is less then blessing a totem. chests take 10 seconds to open. pharmacy grants 80% boost to opening chests. This is 5.5 second opening time. if there 10 chests in the map, it is far more accessible to find chest nearby than it is to find a totem.
In order for the perk to be viable after the prep time, it MUST provide a heal that's faster than options which don't require prep time, IE, medkits. The only exception to this was old Circle of Healing, which had its own unique approach + was broken because it provided WAY faster heals anyway.
The self-healing time for 50% COH was 21.33 seconds. it wasn't that much different then 24 second med-kit. this is what. 5.5 second chesting open and 24 second healing. I mean the total interaction time is marginally faster.
The absence of chests spawns in the trial is likely big component for pharmacy low popularity. You have to use an offering every game to utilize the perk in most efficient way possible and soloq 1. cannot coordinate this in the current iteration and 2. most don't see expense as worthwhile.
As an aside, I don't want it to be only useful or viable for SWFs, I want it to be useful for solo queue as well.
Most perk that end up being good for soloq end up being too strong overall. Background player at 200% haste was great example of that. any time that BVHR has tried buff perks that are valid for soloq, they've ended up reverts changes or sometimes deleting the perk out of existence. It is just an obvious pattern that this point.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756088#Comment_3756088
I mean, it sounds like you're agreeing with me now, so you'll have to forgive me for asking for more clarification.
That makes it sound like it's a good idea to start changing some things. If a perk is only even potentially useful for those in a super coordinated four-stack, AND people in that very specific configuration have no real reason to want to run it even then because it's heavily outclassed by a wealth of other options, it kinda sounds like the perk is operating in a pretty lacklustre state and could use an overhaul.
For instance, a rework that allows it to better fulfil its intended role as an emergency self-heal by uncoupling it from medkits and bringing more unique, evocative flavour to its use.
this is more of a problem of not showing your allies load outs and not having auras for items on the floor. Once again aura reading wrapped into a perk.
Plundered instinct is a perk that show aura of items left on the floor. in a swf, when someone drops a med-kit or any item, a player can notify other players to pick-up the item. if you open all chest, survivor might not know you have the perk and might not check chests unless they're near a chest and just happen to see med-kit.
I don't think you should be trying to balance around instant heals. Adrenaline and red syringes are only needed/potencial useful healing perk for a swf. otherwise stacking second chances or gen-rush perks are better choices. there is not much to change. it is probably better to just nerf Red syringe and Adrenaline instant heal instead as these are over-performing mechanics.
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allow me to loot an instant kill mori from a chest, remote pallet breaking, remote hooking or bloodlust exposed from a chest.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756037#Comment_3756037
In order:
1: No, I don't think that's accurate, most survivor perks are perfectly usable in solo queue.
However, if that WERE accurate… does it become okay all of a sudden? Isn't it still a problem for solo queue players to not be able to make use out of perks like this? Isn't it a problem for a perk to be innocuous in solo queue but broken in SWF?
2: I feel like I already addressed this, but self healing WAS the problem with old CoH. It just wasn't CoH ALONE that caused the problem. The issue with that perk was that a very small extra investment (a medkit, and maybe Botany if you're feeling fancy) made CoH a station for ultra-fast self heals that were significantly faster than someone else healing you.
Self healing is problematic when it's FAST. It's not problematic when, like with medkits, Strength in Shadows, and Inner Strength, it's SLOWER than someone else healing you.
As an aside, we're not talking about solo queue in this discussion, we're talking about SWF. You're contending that Pharmacy is a top tier source of healing for SWFs, right? That's why I bring up that perks like We'll Make It and Circle of Healing are significantly better for SWFs. They're also not actually that bad for solo queue because the problem is lack of coordination rather than time inefficiency, but we're not talking about that here.
3: To address your last part about Pharmacy being comparable to old CoH: Only if you view CoH used ON ITS OWN, which it wasn't before and wouldn't have been particularly problematic if it were. Old CoH, meaningfully and consistently, provided FASTER self heals than someone else healing you. Medkits provide SLOWER heals.
The prep time of CoH was considered acceptable and even strong because it paid for itself by making subsequent heals faster. It still does, if you're in a SWF, it's a very very good perk if you have the coordination to use it. What you're describing is putting in more prep time than old or current CoH to make everyone heal slower.
If you put LESS prep time into using a perk like WMI or CoH, while in a coordinated SWF, time spent healing overall goes down, considerably. If you put prep time into opening every chest on the map with Pharmacy, in a coordinated SWF who then use those medkits to self heal, time spent healing overall goes UP.
However, if that WERE accurate… does it become okay all of a sudden? Isn't it still a problem for solo queue players to not be able to make use out of perks like this? Isn't it a problem for a perk to be innocuous in solo queue but broken in SWF?
that is been case for dbd perks since beginning. a great example is like flip+power struggle where dying on a pallet to let a survivor recover and threatening pallet save makes perk much better but in soloq. nobody going to be doing that actively or play around your perks.
Unbreakable is another perk that actively benefits from that play-style.
This just another one of those perks that falls under the SWF category to gain benefits. the thing is, while swf can use a lot more perks, like in any other competitive game, the top perks rise to the top and alternative weird perks aren't worth messing around.
SWF can use pharmacy but they can also just equip 4 med-kit with charges and red syringes. that is all the healing you'll ever need. if they want more healing, they'll just run 4 adrenaline. Might as well use top perks rather middle ground stuff.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756005#Comment_3756005
Two people could run Pharmacy to open chests twice as fast… or one person could run current Circle of Healing to get vastly more efficient heals for less prep time.
Two people could run Pharmacy to open chests twice as fast… or everyone could just bring a medkit with two heals and get the same effect for zero prep time.
Two people could run Pharmacy to open chests twice as fast… or two people could run We'll Make It and get much better healing efficiency overall.
The fact remains that prep time like that only pays off if the resulting heal is SHORTER than default, but the heal you get from a medkit is LONGER than default. Medkits are good specifically because of the flexibility and lack of investment that comes with them. You just have the medkit, from the start of the trial, and can use it whenever you need. They're also good because their only "decent" baseline can be improved, via addons and perks, which doesn't come into play with Pharmacy here.
Even when medkits were busted, Pharmacy wasn't appealing because having to go find and search a chest for an item you could just bring in yourself was an unnecessary extra step. Now that medkits aren't busted, it's honestly detrimental, whether the heal goes to you or to your teammate.
It's not like the ACTUAL situation old Circle of Healing enabled, where everyone's healing was significantly faster than someone else healing them due to stacking CoH with their (old) medkits or something like Botany. If everyone was forced to actually use CoH's 22 seconds ish as their heal every time, the perk never would've been as huge a problem as it was, because that's only "decent". A version of that, but with a slightly longer heal, way less flexibility, and way more prep time, is flat out bad.
Plus, I'll direct you again to the question I asked in the last post: Isn't that still worth fixing, even if everything I'm describing were somehow wrong? Isn't it bad for a perk to only be useful in hyper coordinated SWF groups?
Plus, I'll direct you again to the question I asked in the last post: Isn't that still worth fixing, even if everything I'm describing were
somehow wrong? Isn't it bad for a perk to only be useful in hyper coordinated SWF groups?Isn't that what 80% of the survivor perks are currently? they're only good in a swf. If they're good in soloq, they're often perceived as too strong/busted perks. For example For the people+Buckle up was a perk that people complained about. it wasn't that good in soloq but it was still good enough for some soloq player to run it that it got nerfed to the ground.
If everyone was forced to actually use CoH's 22 seconds ish as their heal every time, the perk never would've been as huge a problem as it was, because that's only "decent". A version of that, but with a slightly longer heal, way less flexibility, and way more prep time, is flat out bad.
If self-healing wasn't issue than why was one of biggest target nerf for said perk to remove self-healing effect from the perk? COH biggest strength was ability to self-heal without a med-kit. It is one of mains reasons why COH isn't selected by most soloq players anymore. the setup for totem and than requiring two people to heal doesn't have any merit. it is not time efficient. It is why you see we'll make it with 8.16% pick-rate in soloq for Nightlight.
I am saying that pharmacy is close to comparable to old COH in term of self-healing capacity when 4 purple coin offering are used. there is just chest everywhere and searching a chest at 80% of speed and self-healing has similar benefits to setting up a boon and self-healing.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3755901#Comment_3755901
What a strategy….
Kinda funny to say from someone who used it…
but it's not like you need to use remote hooking to do it. Just agitation and iron grasp is enough on most maps. So this sounds as creating an issue out of nothing. I am pretty sure most of the times it didn't made any difference and you would reach basement anyway.
Best thing you could do was leave hooked survivor asap to actually get value out of the time you got. If you just camp, then it seems kinda wasted.
smart survivors can avoid going down in the basement where both perks is not enough to make to basement every time. remote hooking often makes strategy near unavoidable. greatly boosts the killer ability to proxy camp the entire game.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3755860#Comment_3755860
Yes, those perks require two survivors to heal, but the actual time investment would be so much lower that it's much stronger.
What you're describing is spending an insane amount of time running around the map opening chests just so everyone's heal can be slower than you healing them to begin with, after you've spent all that time setting it up. Medkits aren't fast anymore, this time investment doesn't pay off.
Even if what you're describing were as strong as you're describing it, wouldn't that still be a good reason to rework it? To make it so that it's not something SWF can abuse, and also making it so solo queue can benefit from it just as much?
depends on how many people run pharmercy. two people can open chests twice as fast around the map lowering the time commitment. 24 second self-heal is not that slow. in fact, it is only +1 second slower then original circle of healing at 50%. the only risk you have is running out of med-kits. while 10 med-kit is a lot of med-kits, it is not infinity healing but for average match, that many med-kits is sufficient in most situations.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3755647#Comment_3755647
Just use of some logic. Time wise it was nothing compare to pallet breaking.
Remote hooking in reality saved like 5-6 seconds per hook? That is far from broken in my opinion.
Remote pallet breaking is actually effect most killers simply can't get. It basically makes every corner loop a guaranteed hit.
Remote hooking is probably closest to Agitation.
the strength is that it could be stacked with agitation to send everyone into the basement. that was actually my event build for all killers. it was just run iron grasp+agitation, walk half the map away and then press remote hook at last second to send everyone into the basement. What a strategy….
@MaddieMage said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3754894#Comment_3754894
The killer should not get insta hooks right after downing people. If they wanted that they wouldn’t have put in any wiggle mechanic at all or perks to help with it. Not to mention as others have said how it also negated DS, flash saves and power struggle. It was clearly an OP ability.
so why do survivor instantly complete the generator after finishing the 90 charges? They should need spend 10 second to start-up generator after fully repairing it. that is like close equivalent to carrying people to a hook. If the killer interrupts survivor before they start-up gen, they reduce drastically reduce charges of a gen from a kick. maybe pop goes weasel as a perk no longer affects normal kicks but increases # of charges when a generator is fully repaired. You know.. like killer version of sabotage. This is just an idea. once this happens, the gen is blocked/cannot be regressed.
Could be good game-delay tactic idea for killer.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3755816#Comment_3755816
In a technical sense, it doesn't apply any progression. Therefore it should be exempt from the Generator Blocking rules.
the definition of progression is being able to finish generator quicker. Reducing the number of charges on generator shortens the total amount of time needed to complete the generator. that is faster progression.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3755805#Comment_3755805
If the goal is to get your teammates healed, there are a lot of better options. Botany Knowledge, We'll Make It, Desperate Measures, even Circle of Healing itself works better as a zone of keeping your teammates healed than you personally spending a whole lot of time unlocking various chests just so your teammates can get a slower heal than if you'd not spent the time at all and healed them directly.
That's if we're assuming you want your teammates healed, too. If we're just looking at what's stronger than 24 second self heals, then 22 second self heals (Strength in Shadows) or a 20 second disjointed self heal (Inner Strength, 12 seconds cleansing and 8 seconds in a locker) would both count. Whether it's considered an altruistic heal or a self heal, Pharmacy just doesn't stack up against the other options.
Medkits are still very good, yes, but they're not that good. The old medkits, absolutely, the old Emergency Medkit was flat out broken, and even an old regular medkit would've made what you're describing only kind of weird instead of a flat waste of time. New medkits, though? Those heals are already slower than if you'd just healed them outright, and that's not counting all the time you spent unlocking those chests.
The only benefit to what you're describing is that teammates don't need to be near you to heal, but that brings us back to the age-old problem with this perk: They can just bring themselves a medkit and it'd be better than relying on Pharmacy. It's a fine niche tactic for hyper coordinated SWFs, but even in that context it's worse than a lot of other options- and a perk only being good in that context would still warrant changes even without that.
Pharmacy is weak and undesirable either way, and since it's pretty clearly meant to be a self heal perk, that's where I'd like to see it improved.
those perks require two survivors to heal. Pharmacy and med-kit don't require 2 people to heal. They only require a single player to go around map opening chests. It is arguably more potent than all other healing perks. that is simply how good med-kits are.
It's a fine niche tactic for hyper coordinated SWFs, but even in that context it's worse than a lot of other options- and a perk only being good in that context would still warrant changes even without that.
i disagree that it is worse then other options. part of its strength is ability to compress survivor's perk slots. 1 person runs pharmacy and everyone has access to abundant amount of med-kits.
There is just simply no perk where using a single slot rivals that much self-healing capacity for a team. Only Old circle of healing and pre-nerfed self-care at 80% efficiency were better perks than this form of healing. Those two perks were some of strongest perks in dbd's history.
if the perk were to get buffed, it could have an additional effect where med-kits found in the chest have double the amount of charges. In other words, they have iri gel dressing and bandage add-on equipped. Now it goes from a perk that SWF can niche abuse to a perk that soloq might run with coin offering to get 2 heals.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3755819#Comment_3755819
I’d basically just like them to be active from the start but not light into a totem for like 60 seconds into the game. So until a minute has passed they’re impossible to find or cleanse. Buffing Undying just uses it as a bandaid fix.
well in truth, undying should be base-kit for all hexes but when hex ruin was good and required more input from survivor to get rid of, it was immediately nerfed. As a result, i don't understand why BVHR tries to implement secondary objectives for survivor when the very first one didn't pass through.
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gameafoot. i just want the perk to give me 5% haste after kicking a pallet. Changing the the perk so that it changes the obsession when hitting a survivor by any means would make it consistent.
@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3755678#Comment_3755678
Honestly they just need to make it not a hex itself so it can’t be cleansed. Then it’s just a flat “totems take longer” basically. Maybe I’m asking too much but I don’t think the notification on totem touch would be too much either.
buffing hex:undying is probably best solution to making hexes last longer. For example, instead of hex:undying only re-lighting itself a single time, make hex:undying re-light itself 2 times. I doubt they'll buff hexes because they're not top 20 worst perks in the game but they're not meta or good either. Just average perks.
I found that they're better than most of killer perks by playing chaos shuffle. I rolled hex: blood favor and hex:crowd control in many builds. it was very useful despite being cleansed every game. Some games, i had hex:retribution and Hex:haunted with some other hexes like hex:lullaby, they at least did something unlike some of the most pointless perks ever like….. predator.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3755810#Comment_3755810
How about no.
Weaving Spiders is an edge case as in it does not provide progression or regression. It only changes the required charges. It should not be blocked when a generator is blocked.
it provides 10 charges of progression in the form of removing charges. it used to provide raw progression before the live release in the PTB.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
Yeah I still don't know why they haven't changed this. They say "blocked gens can't receive progression", but they're not getting progression, they're having the total charges reduced. It's different.
It's not stated on the perk at all that blocked generators don't work with it either. It's really annoying and makes the perk far less appealing. It has a very high cost so it needs to be consistent.
then make generator regress when blocked.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3755660#Comment_3755660
I went back to that dev update to go reconfirm, and it reads like this:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/X4SYC8QLTN1P/image.png
Considering the two options presented are "hope nobody takes it" and "hide it", I think it's fair to say Pharmacy is considered a self-healing perk first and foremost, with the possibility of altruistic healing just being only that, a possibility. The focus is still on you getting to use your medkit on yourself, after all.
It's still important to note that, at the time this update was written, the perk still gave you a green medkit, the only one with a self-heal bonus.
As an aside, it's not like it matters. As an altruistic healing perk in a SWF, Pharmacy is still excessively mediocre and not worth running over much better options since it still requires a lot of prep-time for a medkit that isn't any better than any other medkit these days. It still needs to be buffed, and making it more focused on self-healing would still be a way of doing that.
What exactly is stronger then 24 second self-heals? Med-kit are still incredible powerful and dare i say over-tuned. It is because they unlock self-healing action but don't cost any perk slot to use.
Pharmacy is like old circle of healing. you spend 1 perk slot and entire team unlocks an extremely fast self-care action because of abundant amount of med-kits that the perk can produce. It has two downsides to balance itself. the first is amount of heals is == to amount of chest. a non-factor for swf team that just runs 4 coin offerings. The other is that survivor that opens chest must be injured. Also a non-factor in most cases because survivors will be injured at some point in the trial.
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Still just waiting for a revert/rework that makes condemn and phase-shifting(chase) be equally as valuable. right now i only want to play Sadako on Midwich elementary school/Gideon's. everything else looks too weak and ineffective vs 4 man swf.
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They put 30 second of recall on victor and it killed the killer.
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given decisive strike long list of ups and downs, Made for this might get changed in the future. at least i hope it does. I'd like to see come back as exhaustion perk but have more severe drawbacks like -1 hook state.
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because if the perk activates, it has potencial to be good anti-tunnel perk. It is just currently very expensive from perk slot perceptive.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3755512#Comment_3755512
Dbd kill rate is 60% so 2K is loss for mmr. You are peforming under average so your mmr should drop.
i am just saying survivor mmr is slightly undersold and the killer MMR would be slightly harder to go up. nothing more.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3755460#Comment_3755460
I don't think that's true at all.
For starters, I don't think the perk would've given you the only medkit explicitly designed to heal yourself if it was supposed to be for healing your team. That alone says to me that we're supposed to consider Pharmacy an emergency heal for yourself, not a way of healing your team faster.
Second, when they changed it in 6.1.0, the little joking flavour text they put in the changelog was "try stealing my medkit now, Meg" which implies that they wanted to make it LESS likely for Pharmacy's medkit to go to someone else instead of you.
Pharmacy is supposed to compete with self heal perks. It's just not good at it, and never has been.
that was a bit of humour. I think the joke was that meg wasn't going to be stealing your med-kit, instead you will be giving her a med-kit because you have like 10 med-kits to spare.
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@Pulsar said:
As a Killer, a 4K at 2+ gens is a win, anything else is a loss.
As Survivor, two people getting out is a win in this day and age.
what. a 4k is a win regardless if it at 0 or 2 gens. the only time gens would ever matter is if its like tournament and two killer in tournament standing tie for same amount of kills, so then the killer with more gens would win as to break tie breakers.
2-4 escape through exit gate is win for survivor team
3-4k is win for killer.
I know dbd mmr counts as 2 survivors that died as losses but really it should be counting them as draws. when 3rd survivor is killed, the entire team loses. that is how it should work but it is whatever.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3754725#Comment_3754725
Even so, I'm pretty sure what I'm pitching would be relatively balanced. You'd still have a timesink so it's not broken, but you get the efficiency of getting to repair generators for half of it, meaning it's good competition to things like medkits or SiS or Inner Healing.
It'd have to be tested, obviously, but I still think this is the best way to buff Pharmacy. Plus, even if a change did end up being necessary, I think the smarter choice would be to make the animation longer rather than the chest opening part take longer, that'd probably feel less obnoxious to the player while still representing a higher timesink overall.
Pharmacy is not suppose compete with self-healing perks. It is suppose be a perk that you equip to search all chests on the map to floor entire map with green med-kits which act as Circle of healing boon stations. It is team-based perk that requires SWF-level synergy to gain value.
It is extremely powerful in principal. You get injured, you search every chest on the map with 4 of those chest offering and now entire map is floor with 10+ green med-kits all over the floor. that is a lot of health-states and self-healing efficiency. It is not good for soloq because soloq cannot see each other perks and doesn't have coordination to utilize perk its to full potencial but this is easily of stronger healing perks for SWF.
The only balance they put on it to not make it crazy in swf is injured condition but this is also very easily mitigated by using For the people to become injured early on by force. After that. it is just med-kit city.
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As long as they give him 5% haste in overclock, he'll be fine.
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3 survivors on gens for entire game. All 5 generators were done in less than 6 minutes. maybe something like 5:30-7 minutes. Gen-rushing isn't inherently bad but if a killer has like 6 hooks or say a large amount of hooks and the gen still flew in 6 minutes, it feels bad for killer because the killer got "punished" for spreading hooks and their pressure was useless/ineffective.
Gen-rushing should be possible only when the killer plays poorly… like gets 2 hooks or something and does poor chases.
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I just hope they fixed his memento blade animations while they investigate the vergil death by 1000 cuts visuals.
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@Leachy_Jr said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3754743#Comment_3754743
So we just leave him in the state of "Feels terrible to play without speed add ons".
Basic QOL buffs shouldnt be gatekept just because he's strong.
EDIT: Oh yea and why should we not buff him to be just as strong on console as PC?
I'd just revert his compound 33 and iri tag changes. those two nerf were a bit too harsh with the hug tech. he should at least be able to do hug tech or use both iri add-on's.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
I don't think Weave Attunement is miserable to go against, it's just that Franklin's is so damn annoying with how fast it eats your charges.
killer perks are not suppose to be fun for the survivor. they're suppose to be fun for killer. I don't have fun when the survivor hold-w with lithe or uses distortion to block aura perks. Perks shouldn't be nerfed or balanced around the other sides fun.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3755123#Comment_3755123
Maybe I'm just being pessimistic, but I don't think the tone of the complaints are going to change if she becomes super weak and bad. Maybe they'll become less frequent, but you'll still have people talking about how her design sucks and they hate going against her even though she's weak.
It's not like she has a super high pickrate or super high strength right now, after all. I wouldn't call her weak, but she's pretty middle of the pack, and people still act like she has no counterplay and there's no skill expression for either side.
yes they will because if nobody plays skull merchant, you can't complain about a killer that you never play against. For example Twin is slugging killer. Survivor CONSTANTLY complain about slugging but they do not complain twins. Do you know why? Because killer is almost never played.
I still think that skull merchant d/c are silly because summary of skull merchant kit is a killer with Clown tonic traps. I don't see anyone D/C vs Clown when he uses giant speed boosts and giant hinders. You don't see people complaining that they need to "Leave loops" vs Clown. Survivors in my opinion are d/cing because of skull merchant power-level but skull merchant power-level is no greater then Clown's power-level. Most of their kit is nearly identical in function with only added component being stealth+broken component. The garnish kit with 16 meter wall-hack makes up clown not having a radar. that add-on might as well be a radar. those stealth and broken component only exist so that skull merchant is not a worst clown, but alternative pick to him.
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@Laluzi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3755329#Comment_3755329
I mean… yeah? She slows down while holding her power and around loops, I frequently have to put it away because having it up is doing me more harm than good. Different killers slow down to different speeds (Deathslinger slows much more than Trickster or Nemesis), but it's a consistent design philosophy.
4.4 m/s is almost full speed. With worship tablet, she moves at 115% m/s. i feel like plague mains don't really utilize that. Slowdown while using abilities for most killer is outdated game philosophy in my opinion. This is easily seen by last killer release who just had massive m/s reduction.
In my opinion, only killer that should have such slowdowns are killer that force you to sway left to right in long strokes like huntress due to those huntress giant axe hitboxes. Slinger should not slowdown. and neither should trickster.
I don't know about unknown. see the issue with his slowdown is that survivor can remove the weakened. I would personally not remove his slowdown but buff his weakened to reduce survivor m/s by like 3%-5% when the survivor does not look at him.
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@Laluzi said:
All ranged and semi-ranged killers do this. It's a vital design component to prevent the ranged killer from being able to hold their power ready-to-use and chase normally at the same time; that would put survivors in a lose-lose where they have to prepare to dodge the projectile that can be launched at any moment, and start moving erratically, but they also need to gain distance because the killer is gaining on them, so they have to move in a straight line. Zoning is too easy in those conditions. This is also why killers have sound cues when they charge up their ranged attack; it's a cue for survivors to switch from running to juking.
More transparency in the power explanation is good, though.
says plague who moves at 4.4 m/s when holding her power.
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@Blueberry said:
I don’t think they necessarily have to have mobility. What they need is map pressure, that is what they’re getting from map mobility. You could hypothetically have a killer with no map mobility if they had like a built in game slow down that put survivors on side objectives. This would give them pseudo map pressure. Think Pig with her traps, but if her stealth and ambush were actually good.
i do not think it is the mobility. it is time efficiency that makes a killer a killer good.
4vs1 objectives for killers is sort of an indirect form to deal with poor time efficiency in a killer. This is because for every gen defence perk/time waste mechanic, you can trade X # of pallets for said slowdown.
For example if you run corrupt intervention and deadlock, you can trade your game-delay perks for x pallets on the map. so let''s say you break 3 pallets and the pallet waste 60 seconds, the corruption intervention and deadlock eat the brunt of generator efficiency for those pallets.
The pig traps replace corrupt intervention deadlock with incapacitation on the survivor with head trap. you can do gens with trap on but it is not good idea because of the mori. It is indirect incapacitation. saying that killer need slowdown just says that every killer needs better base-kit generator game control. 5% generator kicking certainly is not cutting it. most killer really need automatic game-delay that reward kill for not tunneling and punish the survivor for playing chases poorly. The 5% manually kicking game delay is insufficient because kicking generators as killer consumes the killers time. the reward /= time used up by the killer to kick said gen. In most cases, the killer loses faster by kicking gens than he does for kicking the gen. This said be seen in 3 gens where killer eventually loses a 3 gen in most maps. the maps where killer is most resilient at staying alive in old unlimited kick system are the maps where kicking gens had any merit otherwise it is a strategy that long-term losing preposition.
The major form of mobility for why i think mobility is good two things.
- Counters pre-running. If a survivor is ahead of the killer and spots killer ahead of the time, pre-running is one of strongest form of time waste for the survivor. Virtually all strong killers have anti pre-running tools. This is arguably one of the most important tools for a killer.
- Devalue health's. The fact that being healthy in dbd for killer amounts to +20 seconds of time waste just running forward is massive. Most killer that are good either have instant down capacity or Pseudo 15 stacks of stbfl to machine gun survivor's health-states. Cutting chase time is massive increase in killer's time efficiency. that is why the type of the mobility that rains supreme is Mobility-in chase. For example, Demogorgon has mobility BUT it is not mobility in the chase. it doesn't allow him to machine gun survivors in chase. Yes he can use the perk STBFL+Rapid but it is nowhere near effectiveness that a killer power bring to the table. Dredge and Sadako and Alien all fall into this category of mobility that controls the map but doesn't really help the killer machine gun health-states. Billy for example has base-kit instant down, a 1 hit down ability. He is perfect representation for why there should be more killer that have instant down because instant down is one of the best forms of devalue health-states. Wesker is another example where he can m1 a survivor and then combo his dash after speed boost to get a hit. Killer need Wesker type mobility for machine gun or direct instant down. Nurse, Spirit, Blight, Chucky. all of them just have machine gun mobility.
The other important aspect for a killer to be good is Anti-loop tile-set play.
Safe loops and God pallets are main time-wasters for a killer in chase. the ability for killer to be outplay or ignore these design is massive advantage to the killer. The more god pallet there are, the more important it is for a killer to have anti-loop tile set play. Nurse is high-tier because she ignores bad loop design. God pallets are not an issue for nurse. Apart from Old chucky, None of killer counter god pallets effectively and consistency. Some killer power provide some aid in getting a hit at safe pallets but in the end, most of them are subject to huge counter-play. High speed mobility in a loop allows the killer to outplay loops. Going back to Billy, Billy can curve loops and this allows him to outplay dropped pallets/undropped pallets.
The bottom line, time efficiency is what makes a killer good and most killer are not time efficient at dealing with survivor's gameplay. The major 3 being Pre-running, Devalues health-states & Safe/God pallet loops. Those that have all 3 of these tools are always the best killers in the game because their time efficiency exceed that of killer with no such tools.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3755020#Comment_3755020
I guess it’s necessary for me to point out the errors in relying on stats so blindly. Should we also be buffing nurse since her rates are lower? No, it’s because we have the ability to realize how much lower mmr and bad players influence those stats. Should we also point out the F tier perks in those stats that show high kill rates even though they’re awful? You really shouldn’t be mocking towards people when you’re not understanding stats correctly. We can have a normal conversation without that.
Yeah I was looking some of the stats on nightlight for perks like their overall kill-rate:
I bet the reason why a lot of perks in dbd weren't getting buffed or changed in the past is because… for some reason they have perks like Thwack!, Hoarder, Gameafoot with like 62%, 64% and 65% kill-rate which is like same kill-rate as like Pain res+Pop. As we know, dbd dev loved to balance around kill-rate stats. It is no wonder why the bottom half of killer perks are so extremely useless because the stats show that these perks are as good as the most common perks. either way these stats really do not showcase the efficacy of any perk.
while these stats not official stats for said perk, it is likely that bvhr's stats are likely similar where many perks are shown to have high kill-rate despite having little to no use rate.
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@jesterkind said:
It's a pretty ominous sign for everyone, but I'm crossing my fingers it won't be too bad. The way I see it, there are three broad directions this rework could go, and while none of them will actually address the problem (because the problem is "people don't like her" and their reasons aren't actually moored in anything real about her power for the most part), ONE of them would be a good thing in general.
The three directions I see this going are:
1: They completely gut her power with a series of huge nerfs. Nobody will be happy with this; people who like her get their killer ruined, and the people who hate her aren't going to suddenly reverse course because she's a bad killer now.
2: They do another huge overhaul that fundamentally changes her power, like the change that got us to her current kit. This probably won't make people stop hating her - the previous rework didn't despite fixing all her issues and adding very few appreciable new ones - and it'll suck for the people who like her. Small chance it's also an improvement and people who like her now will still like her afterwards, but it'd still suck to lose her current design.
3: They address the problems her kit ACTUALLY has with a fairly large number of individually somewhat small changes. This is what I'm hoping for, but y'know, it obviously won't fix the problem on its own since her actual problems rarely come up in complaint threads. Since this would include "drop something at loop, survivor runs away", it would at least help, so it's worth pursuing as an option from BHVR's standpoint, but it's not as though most people fully understand even that problem, so. Y'know.
Any one of these options would probably take time, so I'm not too surprised by the timeframe we've been given. There's no way Merchant is a super high priority, and changes take time even disregarding that.
Our best hope, whichever option the devs go for, is that the fire kind of fizzles out and everyone moves on to complain about something else so we can finally be free of this exhausting discourse. I'm not holding my breath, but it's a hope.
1: They completely gut her power with a series of huge nerfs. Nobody will be happy with this; people who like her get their killer ruined, and the people who hate her aren't going to suddenly reverse course because she's a bad killer now.
not sure how true that is. if a killer is really bad and you escape every time you play vs them. you're more likely to have less d/c because it is free win. free win for survivor == fun/bully material. The issue is that if killer is so bad, nobody will play skull merchant. If the killer has like 0.1% pick-rate than the character is effectively deleted from the game and that exactly what these d/c people want from that complaint. her deleted from the game. childish behaviour if you ask me.
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he is 4.4 m/s. 4.4 m/s entirely rely on their ability to be effective.
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@HexHuntressThighs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3754617#Comment_3754617
Shouldn’t have to pay for a perk to keep you in the game. He shouldn’t be able to use his chainsaw within a range of Hooked survivors after being near for a certain amount of time. Good luck getting solo queue teammates to trade with you (they almost never do)
maybe don't get hooked in bad positions as bubba? his strong basement play… aligns with his canonical story.
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@HexHuntressThighs said:
Honestly still clueless why they omega buffed cannibal. He is insane at camping, tunneling and slugging. Can literally shred through post hook BT. Why did they give an insta down killers chainsaw same cooldown as an M1 killers weapon wipe. His tantrum should be 5 seconds again, 3 is insane. And him having essentially zero collision is also a problem, you literally can’t make him bump into anything. For some reason survivors are fine with it though. The amount of tunneling and camping cannibals have skyrocketed and it’s annoying to play against.
says huntress player that can camp basement all game and machine BT. Upset that the killer optimizes the meta strategies? Bubba is gonna get nerfed by new BabySitter perk If they make it good because haste will outrun his chainsaw. so in order for bubba to instant down people through BT, he's going need to use iri-flesh. yay for mandatory iri add-on to equip.
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115% m/s hag is something that i have stated in the past. I am not entirely sure why she is 4.4 m/s but my best guess is that they want to make her bait-trap gameplay from survivor more effective. If she is 4.6 m/s and she teleports, the faster base m/s she catch-up to the survivor quicker allowing her to place traps where survivor has to manually disable it over just use the tech to trigger the trap then run to nearest loop.
Another potencial reason is to keep trapper parity. many people consider hag's traps to be a stronger version of trapper due to the non-requirement to pick-up traps and the much faster setup time+the ability to camp hooks with said ability. In order to keep hag closer to Trapper level in power, 4.4 m/s is put. As for why you would use Trapper power-level as baseline to Hag remains a mystery. Trapper is rated as one of the worst killer in dbd from competitive stand-point so using him, an extremely low perceived beachmark remains a mystery.
At the same time, The 3rd trapping killer, skull merchant receives lots of d/c's because she ends up being stronger then both of these killers. Many players display symptoms to dislike playing vs trapping killers. As a result, the strategy could simply be to keep trapping killer as weak archetype due survivor bias/dislike vs said killer. Whether this dislike comes from Generator camping(3 gens), Hooking camping or the direct zoning of the trap[killer places trap, survivor leaves loop or get directly outplayed with Perceived 0 skill requirement] are all possible valid reasons for said dislike.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3754389#Comment_3754389
If you think 10% hindered is negligible in this game then you’re very inexperienced.
clown has 15% haste for 6 seconds on yellow with cheap gin bottle and he has pink bottles for another 15%. his haste is == to her hindered. clown has bigger burst speed due to pink bottles and has 16 meter of wall-hack. skull merchant has less burst speed, more consistent speed but has the stealth factor. survivor d/c is irrational for skull merchant.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3754171#Comment_3754171
Pretty much, yeah - and there wouldn't even be anything stopping Pharmacy from using a longer variation of it, if I am wrong about how long the vaccine animation is specifically.
i was running pharmacy+appraisal+specialist on PTB. you can farm med-kits while helping you do gens in this build. if specialist was a lot better…. like 2x effectiveness than pharmacy could easily be a valid perk for swf. Soloq? Well…. unless you want spend time giving everyone a med-kit manually, it could work but is very time consuming.
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@Blueberry said:
All of those make sense except Midwich, it's totally fine. Not sure why they're touching it.
Midwich issue is camping. proxy camping hooks is not fun for survivor. they need move hooks in different places and make class room more open. Like instead of putting a hook in middle of hallway with only 2 exists. put hook in class, remove all debree in class room and put it in the center. Move certain pallet loops to accommodate this. Also make class much bigger length.
I can see reasons for changing it. They might also strengthen windows and center of the map as hardly anyone goes in the center courtyard for looping. The map needs more size depth.
They're also buffing Coldwind farm. Probably more pallets for Racid Abbator. Maybe 1-2 extra pallets for Fracture cowshed. The other two maps are ok in strength.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3754281#Comment_3754281
BHVR will probably use the same balancing strategy that they did with Nurse, Spirit, and Blight, where they just pile nerf upon nerf upon nerf, until the bulk of the complaints go away.
the thing is, with nurse, spirit and blight, most player universally agree that their power-level was high. In fact all of those killer were label as S-tier.
Like if you look at otz-tier list over the years, Nurse, Blight and Spirit were all S-tier killers in his tier list. Skull merchant on other hand is not consider good and is rather unpopular where as Nurse, Blight and Spirit were all extremely popular killers when they were broken.
Spirit was like 11% pick-rate when MDR+Original prayer bread existed. Nurse was like 6% with like a 75% kill-rate in her prime. Blight was 7-8% in his prime. even today, blight is somewhat popular. Nurse & Spirit got hit extremely hard while blight is worse, he's primary gameplay remains similar. The severity of changes might explain why nurse/spirit are not as common anymore while blight remains somewhat common.
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we need more instant down killers and less of this 4vs1 game-delay stacking slowdown gameplay.
@Laluzi said:
The counterplay is looping, though? Exposed pretty much always works on a timer, be it perks or power. You play extra safe, drop pallets early. You can hold off Myers or Ghostface or Haunted Ground for a minute if you're good, and if you're not good, you would have gone down in that time frame anyway.
It's harder in the event mode with Tryks randomly exposing everyone against every killer, but for Myers and Ghostface and Oni, there's conditions and tradeoffs built into their power. The chainsaw killers are a little more ehhh, because they counter pallets and that's the main way of keeping an instadown killer away from you. But the only instadown I really consider an issue is Bubba, because he chases like a regular killer (juking won't help and won't gain distance like it does on Billy and Oni), always has his power, and your only means of consistently holding him off is a good window loop… which he can and will counter with perks.
But the only instadown I really consider an issue is Bubba, because he chases like a regular killer (juking won't help and won't gain distance like it does on Billy and Oni), always has his power, and your only means of consistently holding him off is a good window loop… which he can and will counter with perks.
He is my favourite instant down killer to play. That is why I was concerned that if they ever buff bubba, load of survivor mains would complain about him because he has no downsides for having an instant down and only has upsides. I always thought he was strongest instant down killer in the game unlike to what most on tier-list label Oni as the best instant down killer until billy got buffed which now people label Hillbilly as best instant down killer.
In bubba defence, his chasing gameplay is difficult to optimize where even slight mistakes can make bubba easily lose/get bully looped in the chase. In that sense, Billy is also susceptible to mistakes but i think bubba has more control over being consistently good with skill vs billy that relies a lot on survivor making mistakes/playing badly.
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curious for skull merchant response I don't know how they can prevent survivors from d/cing. I don't think making her weaker solves anything other than make killer player that play her not play her a more rare killer than the twins. If they completely rework her from scratch and make an entirely different character than dbd loses 1 of the 3 trap-based killers in the game.
in my opinion, i don't see a clear solution. to me, it sounds like childish behaviour to d/c.
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good because he needs rework badly and good one. my wishlist is for his wall-aura reading in dream world to come back in some form. everything else is a bonus.