ChaosWam
ChaosWam
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I think the issue lies in the fact killers are required to run gen regression at all to have an even foothold on the weaker killers, and make even more of an impact on stronger ones.
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@Azulra said:
If they revert the changes with her condemn being global then that's gonna be the worst change ever for her imo. She has no real chase power so she needs a good slowdown power to compensate for that and her global condemn is what made that happen. The main reason a lot of survivors complained about her being too oppressive/strong is because they literally refuse to spend a few seconds to interact with her TVs either because they're just simply too lazy to even bother learning a killer's counter or they're not wanting to get 2 stacks of condemn from getting hit with a tape which isn't even a problem since the tapes can remove up to 2.75 stacks when you put them into a TV.
I cannot express how frustrating it is for me to be playing against an Onryo and it's not even the killer that is the problem, but rather my teammates. I'll be on a generator and see that my teammates are about to be fully condemned while I'm chilling at like 0.75 stack(s) because I'm using her counter-play of holding onto a tape and efficiently managing my condemn meter like survivors should be when playing against her.
The only reason survivors never complained about her before is due to the facts that she's easy to loop and you'd almost never get hit with her condemn unless she was doing the Slugdako playstyle of slugging survivors to spread condemn. That's why people are complaining now because she's not a total pushover like she was before her rework.
Honestly this is how I feel playing against Sadako. Granted there are ones that still condemned slug/condemned tunnel someone out, but for normal Sadako gameplay of just managing tapes it gets obvious people still don't understand the counterplay and act like new Sadako is just broken.
At the very least with the changes, I want Condemned to be more prevalent than her old iteration and tapes to matter. That's what makes me like the current Sadako. If they can nerf down her problematic playstyles and keep her fun, I'll be happy.
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@jonifire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3598878#Comment_3598878
You mean there are illusions which Sadako can see over the map where survivors are?
Or do you mean the demanifest illusions appear more around her?
Probably not being able to see them as Sadako, depending on how much information that would give her since condemned is a Mori, but something that surrounds survivors that effects them depending on their condemned level. For example 1 condemned would see very minor glitching occasionally but 5 stacks would see it happen more often and sometimes see a false demanifested Sadako standing on the outer rim of the demanifest vision range coming in and out.
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@jonifire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3598172#Comment_3598172
What do you mean with visuel tics in your third point?
What do you think about getting condemned passively in a range around TVs (16m), which gives you a small amount of condemned over time. Survivors would have to take a tape. Also when they have a tape it protects you from the passive condemned not the TV-tp condemned, but instead you get it from the tape. So people couldn‘t just ignore the TVs close to them.
You know how Doctor has his fake illusions? Imagine if by how high your condemned was, you'd see similar distortions that demanifested Sadako has when she's just barely in view on approach, escalating in intensity as condemned rises to the point where you do see fake Sadakos. Just a personal want though.
Passive TV condemned could be neat, but the problems I see are both TV placements are kinda jank sometimes and if BHVR would allow it to happen between floors, since that has been a thing they've tweaked with other powers like Skull Merchant drones and whatnot.
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I don't get angry with the devs over limited communication, but it gets irritating when there's sweeping changes with very little insight as to what they're doing up until near the PTB, it gets tested and things aren't liked one way or another, and then they commit to changes nobody got to test.
Two things I wish BHVR had was a dedicated test server for upcoming changes and more hands on deck to get things patched out/fixed up faster. Clearly they're still riding on the fact that DBD got very popular and their studio is still on the smaller side for a game with many people playing it.
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@jonifire said:
I really hope the old one with no cooldows comes back, because that was why I played her. You made very good points. I never played for condemned, so she was killed for me. After reading everything I agree that with the current one games are slown down a lot and that I ended up three gening a lot before her rework, because it was quite easy to defend the last gen.
I wanted to give some ideas:
Tvs
- Very short to no cooldowns so people if they want to take you the ability to be everywhere instant they have to take a tape
- TVs also have a area around them where you get condemned by just being close.
Tp
- speed boost after crawling out of the tv
- looking around like you said
- the radius close to the tvs which give you condemned gets increased and splitted in three parts. First radius around the radius from before the rework 0,5 stacks, in the radius before her rework 1 stack and close to the TVs 2 stacks. That would reward you to chase them to TVs. I don‘t know, which numbers I should use there.
- I didn‘t know before I read your post that the condemned was only applied after the tp animation so that should change too
- Other idea, which someone had in the #bringbackoldsadako discussion was that areas of for example 16m around TVs give one stack condemned. I liked that one.
Demanifast/Manifast
- Faster switch between both forms
- more lagging and glitching around, so that they don‘t know where you are
- pallet immunity like now
- chase count as chases in demanifast
- The demanifast glitching should stay for longer after switching
- I would also like her terror radius to return in demanifasted mode so people would be scared and run into me, because they don‘t know from where I come. As I started playing against her I did that quite often. I heard the terror radius, then I started to run and she just appeared out of nowhere in front of me.
Tapes
- I would want the tapes to be like before the rework, because in the current form I don‘t like that people switch off TVs only to counter condemned. If it was willingly it would be fine, but so I hate it.
- with short/no TV cooldown you have to pick up otherwise she can tp around all the time. So the tv shuts down for 50-70s
- also with the tapes you don‘t get the passive condemned from being close to the Tv. Instead the tape gives you condemned by holding it
- After putting it back in the tv you lose stacks of condemned
- I also would like if you only have one tv to put the tape like before
- Also an idea someone had was that you could decide as survivor to ######### your mates or be a good mate, where one tv was shown, which doesn‘t give your teammates 1 stack condemned and all others do, but you could decide. I don‘t think it would be good, because I would definitely give my mates condemned.
Also she shouldn’t have her lullaby shown in the visual heartbeat like you said.
I tried to find a good use for the tapes and some for condemned, because it was what was important for you in the other discussion, but I don‘t know what would be a good use to interact with the tapes except of condemned and switching off TVs. I personally also don‘t want that stupid immunity of condemned, because that made all people switch off the TVs, so I couldn‘t enjoy her new variant.
There are some very good options you've laid out here. I'd like to go over a few that stuck out to me:
- TV short cooldowns would benefit both increased condemned presence and bring back Sadako's map traversal without dealing with cooldowns. Another suggestion I see people say is attach the condemned to the cooldown and not the teleport, both very good options.
- Increased condemned radius buildup depending on TV proximity is also a suggestion I've seen but want to put emphasis on a great idea.
- One of my wishlists for Sadako's manifest/demanifest, or really condemned in general is she gets visual tricks kinda like doctor madness while you're demanifested and not in chase, but your suggestions for more glitching and such is also a good alternative.
- I'm still split on tapes in general, but if we did go back to her old version the prior suggestions to improve and make condemned more consistant is all I truly want. Tapes being more important then they were made me soften up to newer Sadako.
Overall very good suggestions, I'd be happy if at least half of these things plus the QoL we currently have with no-stun demanifest came to be.
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I feel weird for thinking the current Sadako isn't as bad as the old one, and even stronger than before. Condemned could be tuned better to be less oppressive but thanks to tapes being a side objective and no stuns in demanifest, it feels like the pace of gens is balanced out.
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I feel like basekit hemorrhage (the heal progress reduction, not the blood pools) would have been a good idea if it was adopted earlier in the game. Obviously not at the same speed as Sloppy Butcher, something like 5% a second. Medkits wouldn't have been so oppressive that's for sure. That's honestly a thought I never had.
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Honestly if we're going by the logic of 'Perks have no effect unless they're equipped' to counter bad design, gen regression/progression itself shouldn't rely on perks. Weaker killers shouldn't feel forced to run one to three gen regression/blocking perks to have a fair enough chance against insane gen progression, which survivors shouldn't require kitted out toolboxes and gen progression perks to break 3 gens and insane gen regression. It's a losing battle either way with that argument.
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@Skitten56 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3597011#Comment_3597011
"The problem with pre-rework condemned is it was too easy to avoid in general."
I agree which is why I think they should increase the range or the amount of stacks given if they do go back to a pre-rework style Onryo. It wouldn't need to be might since a good Onryo going for condemn will run old Iri-tape and can apply a good amount of stacks just by teleporting. Just a nice little buff is all we need plus a bit extra to make up for the Ring Drawing nerf.
"the tape can be exchanged quickly and even in your face"
I think they should rework the Iri-Remote Control add-on and have its new effect be to make survivors exposed when they are fully condemned. This would be a great assist to stopping those in face tape drop offs we had before.
Agreed on the range for sure. As well as looking through all the maps again for TVs in weird spots like the swamps having them in corners facing a wall.
Iri Remote idea could be pretty rough, but considering Sadako is an M1 killer I think it balances out okay. I guess I'd need to think on that a bit more but it sounds reasonable.
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@Skitten56 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3596880#Comment_3596880
In my opinion condemn was actually pretty balanced pre-rework, it just needed some slight tweaking. You had to work hard for it sure, but an mechanic that lets you take a survivor instantly out of the game without hooking should be challenging.
Pre-rework the best way to get stacks was to run Iri-tape and constantly harass survivors on gens or mid-chase with teleporting. There was also the dreaded slug aspect to it.
I think it would be great if they got rid of most of the rework and keep the Ring Drawing nerf but also keep the shorter TV cool-downs. They should also either increase the range of which stacks would apply or increase the amount. This would allow Onryo to build up condemn easier without it being unfun for the survivors.
The problem with pre-rework condemned is it was too easy to avoid in general. Unless you're caught off guard constantly by teleports, you could run outside the condemned teleport when you know Sadako teleported near you and avoid tapes entirely. And on the off chance you get condemned built up, the match is halfway over or more and the tape can be exchanged quickly and even in your face unless you have STBFL stacks, making STBFL almost required for those moments.
I'll still die on the hill that the best thing about current Sadako is it makes condemned more of a present thing than before and promotes interactivity with her power, but we need a good middle ground altogether so it's not too strong and not too absent.
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@Dontyodelsohard said:
Here is my ideal as someone who dumped Sadako after the rework:
1. Keep global condemned; however, reduce the stack to 0.5 but if a survivor is within 16m of a TV, increase the condemned gained by 0.5.
2. Untether the teleport from the CD, the CD is now just for global condemn (still get half a stack if in the radius... A strong maybe here).
3. Differentiate the HUD flash from global and local condemn gain so it can be used as tracking.
4. And basically the other stuff you said... Especially Reiko's Watch... I just started picking it up when the rework was announced. Also, I hate that it is exactly the same as the brown add-on.
But that's just me... I want a bit of old and new, just the better portions of each.
I can get behind that condemned idea, good suggestion! Same with the CD on condemned!
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I watched a stream of people with no knowledge of Chucky prior 2-4 man escape across 5 matches.
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@Skitten56 said:
I would be so happy if they just reverted all the rework changes and only kept a few such as the shorter TV cool-downs and the Ring Drawing nerf. The anti-stun while demanifested is a nice gimmick and I think it should stay as well.
Making old Iri-tape part basekit or buffing the range in which condemn is applied upon Projection would be nice too.
All I ask is condemned still stays a decent threat and tapes are still an active part. I love the interactions between survivors and tapes and breaks up the monotony of generators.
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As long as it can't be weaponized by SWF I'll be okay with it.
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I'm quite worried about the Sadako changes. I'm not entirely okay with current Sadako's oppressive condemned strategies currently, running her as a chase/hit and run style right now with condemned being a side objective for slowdown, and if they're planning to 'bring her back to how she used to be' then it's back to the tapes being a joke and survivors ignoring condemned completely while condemned slug starts gaining more traction. Or worse, she gets a huge nerf and ends up like Freddy.
I was good with old Sadako, even better with the new one, and I can still remember how weak old Sadako was compared to other M1 killers. I don't really like current Sadako's image of being an overpowered pub stomper or how players tend to tunnel one out with condemned and I do think she can be tweaked further, but bringing her back to her old version would make her an absolute joke again outside specific playstyles and condemned slugging. And even if they fix slugging on her, then she'll just be weaker.
I'm hoping at the very least condemned will be a present threat and tapes are more necessary to use as they are now, just not as useless and easily ignored as pre-rework Sadako. I do like that her kit now has a threat attached and requires thought on the survivor's part. It makes it more engaging when I go against her and feels like a useful tool when I play as her. Even if I agree with the issues her kit has, I don't agree her old design was any good and required the buffs she got. That said, I'll still play her regardless, just hoping she isn't gutted.
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@lav3 said:
I am expecting she will be in current Freddy state with update.
This is exactly what I hope won't be the case, where she gets gutted past what anyone wants regardless of how condemned works. As much as I wouldn't like old Sadako back, it could be even worse than we all think knowing BHVR's track record.
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@lifestylee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3595817#Comment_3595817
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3595808#Comment_3595808
I like condemned playstyle being strong/very strong. I like being able to bypass the hooking system and get kills without or limited hooking.
Thats fun to me and unique, kinda like tombstone myers.
I'm mainly trying to find the middle ground for both killer and survivor, keeping as close to balance as you can get in mind while having the power be an ever present threat to incentivize interactivity. If condemned only wasn't reliant so much on slugging I'd be fine with that, but even I've experienced those kinds of players who will slug 3, leave 1 up, and rotate for the 4k mori because of a few slip ups from survivors.
Heck imagine if she had an Iri addon that removed hooks and makes condemned a true threat in some way, maybe less condemned removed from tape exchanges. I'd run that myself sometimes.
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@jonifire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3595784#Comment_3595784
That‘s the point where we disagree, you think condemned should be all. I think condemned should be like a passive and the TVs are the main part. I don‘t mind people playing like that, but please let me decide how to play.
Before her rework you were able to decide how to play. Now if you don‘t go for condemned you lose.
She also supported my and your way, the current one scrapped her whole fast tp identity, where she could always come out of nowhere.
For the chase part I made people run to TVs and then tped into them and it worked well. If I struggled chasing someone, I could immediately find another person and get a surprise hit. Now all close TVs are off near survivors!
Except they're never closed off for long with low TV cooldowns. I'm always able to get value out of my TV locations for the most part, and even if not there's usually a close enough TV to get a cheeky hit in because they don't expect me to come from that direction.
And you still don't seem to get it, I never said I agreed with global condemned completely, I only care that survivors have to interact with the power, which old Sadako didn't have and survivors could ignore. A back and forth makes the power fun and engaging, what needs to be balanced are the easily broken/abused parts of the mechanics.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3595780#Comment_3595780
Agree to disagree.
I dont think we will come to one opinion other than that we both care a lot about this character.
I feel like the old version was way better than what we got and I was heartbroken when they just pushed the changes to live and ignored all that we suggested without telling us why they did it.
All I want is to enjoy playing her again.
Sadly I'm always reminded to what she was when I play her and then I stop.
I mean, I kinda felt that way when I first heard the changes. But I realized maybe she's more fun when survivors have something they can do with her instead of largely ignoring it.
The only solution I could think of is TVs never turn off after a teleport, condemned isn't global, and there be some kind of incentive to move tapes to prevent you from being globally present but there would need to be incentive for it aside condemned, especially to keep the extreme abuses of her kit in check.
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@jonifire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3595771#Comment_3595771
In my opinion I was happy that they didn‘t use them so all my TVs were on.
I don‘t ever played the condemned way I just tped around and it was fun. Also I did well and got almost everytime 2-4 kills. It‘s not like it was a problem that they didn‘t take one.
And as I said, it was pointless against survivors who knew to avoid condemned, run from teleports and largely ignore tapes because they simply could and just loop the M1 killer.
It's not bad that survivors need to interact with the killer power. It's kinda weird I have to argue that considering most other killers have that stipulation as well. Heck, I'm even asking for nerfs to her current power, just not gut her back to when she was kind of a joke compared to other killers.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3595771#Comment_3595771
I think I failed to make my point clear. Carrying a tape was way scarier back then.
Also....
Did you read out Ptb feedback back then?
Players like @OnryosTapeRentals and me had long posts about constructive changes and how her problems could and should get fixed.
Are they still somewhere out there for people to read?
I also remember endless discussions as to why the old tapes were pointless to interact with.
And I do remember a lot of Sadako suggestions. I agreed with some, disagreed with others. I still think Sadako's old system was bad and not the best to go back to, and all of the suggestions in the feedback forum won't guarantee BHVR will use them and will make her less mechanically interesting for the simple reason that players don't know how or refuse to interact with her power.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3595759#Comment_3595759
I had Stbfl. No putting tapes in my face.
Tapes back then where way scarier. Sadako was able to predict the correct TV and harass survivors trying to put it in. Also a survivor putting the tape in wanst the end of the world. 3 correct teleports and they where again in the danger zone.
Again....
She was unique and fun.
All that is gone now.
But hopefully it will return and all the hard work that I and many others on the Ptb feedback put in will finally pay off.
One perk to avoid a problem most will run into, a problem most people have with the balance of this game overall.
Tapes were not scary at all. There were games survivors would just rush gens and leave because they could avoid condemned and never touch tapes until necessary. Tapes now are far scarier because they have the drawback of getting hit could result in a death. Tapes before just gained you condemned, which only made survivors avoid them more since you could easily run away when she teleported nearby.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3595743#Comment_3595743
I want the strategic teleporting back. That's all. Spamming my button is boring and uninteractive. Yes. Less tapes will be used. But she will have better map traversal due to no cooldown. That was a big upside of old Sadako. It would also bring back the interaction of chasing survivors into TVs to condemn them mid chase.
Old Sadako was, at least for me more interactive and less spammy. Using tapes was a risky endeavor and lead to intense gameplay in many situations. Right now it's mostly : delete any progress instantly or die on the spot. That's not fun for me.
You still have strategic teleporting now though, I still use strategic movement through TVs and sometimes still cut off survivors if they're not careful. Using tapes is still risky, if not riskier now than ever before. As I said, people could straight up remove condemned in your face before and ruin your entire momentum if you were building condemned. The only real change now is survivors need to touch tapes and there's a shorter TV cooldown in terms of that playstyle. A good example is my VCR/Deadmans combo where, to this day, I still can get 2, sometimes 3 gens blocked because they think I teleported near them.
And my only real complaint with her now is how easy condemned slugging is. Changing how the mori is achieved by second hook is probably the best change for everyone.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3595721#Comment_3595721
I agree on that. She wasn't the strongest. She did deserve buffs. But she didn't deserve what she eventually got.
You don't tell me something new. I played her since she came out on a daily basis.
Sorry if I'm a bit passive, but I very much dislike to repeat myself about her being viable if played well.
It's getting old.
I also don't like to repeat myself, but I will if I have to.
I've dedicated a lot of time to Sadako, as I said before I started the game with her and was oblivious to her power compared to other killers until months later. It was a bit of a shock how weak she was once I tried other killers, and I was getting consistent 2k-3ks with her at the time, sometimes 0k if survivors held W and looped well.
When the change was coming I was skeptical at first, my favorite build was VCR/Iri Tape with Deadman's Switch, Surge, Bamboozle and whatever 4th perk I felt at the time. I felt like the change would demolish that build if TVs were more interacted with. And now after all this time I still run the same build and it's just as effective, if not more so, because of cooldowns and survivors actually having a secondary objective. I was very wrong thinking the changes would nerf her at the time and I can admit that now, but I still can agree on current issues people abuse. I even swapped Iri Tape with Photograph and could still keep momentum in a trial.
Now thinking back to old Sadako and current, we will lose a lot more interactivity and pressure compared to old if they bring her back to that state, which is honestly disheartening. And to ensure there's no bias on my part, I felt the same when flashlight burn got removed.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3595708#Comment_3595708
I didn't slug or tunnel. I genuinely played her well.
Is this so hard to understand?
I was omnipresent and counted stacks in my head. I used a build that made this possible.
Stbfl, discordance, face the darkness and surge.
Addons: only cabin sign.
If you didn't perform well with her. Sorry but you didn't play her well enough to make her consistent.
Did I win every game? No. No killer should.
Playing for condemned doesn't mean slugging or tunneling. I said that back then and I say this now. I'm honestly sick of peoe who reduce her to this playstyle.
Well I hate to break it to you but I did just fine with old Sadako too. I can still say she was very weak and there was a good reason a lot of people wanted buffs.
And unfortunately for both of us, slug condemned is still the biggest issue regardless of what version Sadako is in.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3595664#Comment_3595664
I was 4th in the leaderboards back when she got "nerfed". I cad constistent matches while only using cabin sign. I had consistent moris. It was genuinely a matter of strategic skill. Did i wante her buffed? Of course i wanted that. but that also why i wrote and fought so much on the ptb back then. I wanted what was best for her. This rework wasnt it and perosnally ruined this killer for me. I have since played her very rarely. I still love the character and hava a small rotten remains statue next to my pc that i build over months with clay.
Saying that she was only an m1 killer with stealth is downright wrong and i have to say it: SKILL ISSUE.
Playing her well resulted in a consistent but pretty hard killer. It was strategic skill. Thats something most players dont enjoy learning. For me it was what made her unique.
Mechanically yes, she was worse than Wraith. You can say skill issue all you want and flaunt leaderboards but when her only viable playstyle was slug condemned or condemned tunneling it doesn't change the fact it wasn't good or interactive.
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@jonifire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3595664#Comment_3595664
I only meant the tapes shouldn‘t be like now, where they are mostly used to counter condemned. They should counter only her tp. I think they should be buffed to be more useful against the TVs and still give the condemned if you hold them too long and when you put them in it reduced the stacks like before.
You could very well use the tp in chase and get value out of it, I had never an issue with it.
In my opinion she should get her old version with some buffs like the pallet immunity and shorter tv cooldowns ( maybe no cooldown). The tapes should make a longer cooldown (or be the only thing what deactivates TVs). So people will interact with it. Also I would like that the glitching is more effective and the switch between her power, I think it was faster before.
And I'm saying that focusing the tapes to be a TV counter is pointless because nobody cared if Sadako teleported to a TV. I remember back then when survivors could do tapes in your face because of the hit cooldown and negate your condemned pressure. It pretty much created the slug condemned playstyle.
But let's step back from condemned for a second, using TP in chase is a waste of time because you lose distance due to the amount of time it takes, unless the survivor continues to run into your TV in which case is on them entirely, and STILL can be done now with current TV cooldowns.
Personally with her current iteration, I'd like to see full condemned not Mori until death hook, and condemned give negative effects based on how high the stacks are. I've seen good suggestions too, like how tapes spread condemned when hooked with one instead of breaking like the PTB. Going back to old Sadako is asking for a straight nerf to new interactions while doing nothing that's been an issue for both new and old changes.
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@jonifire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3595629#Comment_3595629
Then it would be far easier for you with the old version, besides the condemned everything was better before. Only no undetectable, which isn‘t that good and no pallet immunity.
Except it really isn't. Survivors used to just rush out gens and leave, hold W and barely ever loop, and only touch tapes when condemned was too high, plus being able to just negate your power by keeping their tapes and depositing them when you hit them right in your face.
I bought the game when Sadako came out, and have played her this entire time. I remember very well what she used to be, and I honestly think many people forgot she was a worse Wraith.
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@jonifire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3595320#Comment_3595320
I loved playing old sadako, since the rework I couldn’t play her like before ( tp around switch targets and have fun)
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3595319#Comment_3595319
They could just buff those stats that they are available more often, through a shorter cooldown and I think taking a tape should deactivate the TVs longer than the cooldown is. I heard someone that said nobody picked the tapes because it wasn‘t even worth it.
The tapes should only be the counter to the TVs, not condemned and TVs.
My main problem with her new version was that every TV close to survivors was off, not that they disabled it on purpose, just because of the condemned, so I couldn’t tp to them.
A minor thing with that I could live was the 10s cooldown.
I don‘t know why everybody is so worried about the old condemned, when I played her I never like it on purpose and I had never a game against someone who did it. Also why would anyone want a weaker version of her with stronger condemned if it‘s so bad?
I find that kinda silly with how Sadako is.
Tapes should absolutely counter condemned, thematically with the story of the original and mechanically. You can argue global condemned is an issue but tapes shouldn't just be to shut down TVs. Sadako is still an M1 killer so good players won't even bother with it, her teleport takes enough time for them to get to a safe spot.
The problem with old Sadako is she was an M1 killer with a very unreliable power. Teleporting isn't the same as a hatchet you can throw or a instant down from stalking, Dredge is a prime example of this. There should be a back and forth with the tapes, be it with the current Sadako or with some adjustments/changes. People who want old Sadako don't remember how many Sadako players desperately wanted buffs because she was effectively just an M1 with a stealth ability that can be heard/seen with heartbeat sensor.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3595319#Comment_3595319
I did have great results with pre rework Sadako. I didnt slug but played for condemned. It worked. It was hard but it worked.
So did I, doesn't mean I still didn't see the issue that nobody touched tapes because they weren't required to.
I like having a back and forth with the power. Could it be tuned? Absolutely, and it's better than she used to be.
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@jonifire said:
The Onryo isn‘t fun to play since the rework. I mained her before the rework. It‘s not just the survivors.
The fun part was playing a hit and run playstile. The rework made her a lot worse in her kit, maybe against bad survivors better, but against good far worse.
Why should I want to spam condemned as killer.
Condemned was a side effect before, which was fine, but to force someone to play like this just, because it is the only thing that works. Is just stupid.
I agree that the cooldown should be much shorter, after a tp. Also the tape should be a counter to her tv and the teleport. So taking one to disable one should be worth it.
You don't have to spam condemned with her change either. I don't and still get 3-4ks just fine.
I even run VCR and Distorted Photo and focus on hit and run/chase.
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Kinda how I'm feeling about the Sadako update in January.
I've coached friends on how to avoid Sadako mid match and got 4 man escapes, even when one had full condemned stacks. I do think she can build condemned a tad too fast, and addons like Mother's Comb should be changed, but reverting her to her old playstyle is a mistake that I've seen players praise but I remember it being a slog to do anything with her power because of TV cooldowns and survivors largely ignoring them because you could just loop Sadako and never touch a tape.
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I have mixed feelings.
The new changes, to me, were only problematic because of slug condemned and players refusing to interact with her power. If they bring her back to what she was before, it will just be having no TVs to teleport to due to high cooldowns, no incentives to interact with her TVs because it's not a threat, condemned buildup will be rare, probably incentivize even more condemned slug and have those who don't focus on condemned and play for her stealth even worse since she still has a lullaby. Not to mention she's still just an M1 killer who can be looped mindlessly.
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I think the heartbeat is great, use it myself.
What I dislike is the lullaby indicator. I get it for Huntress because it's her gimmick with the singing, but for Sadako, Trickster, really anyone with a decently sized TR already or has a stealth element it doesn't make much sense to me.
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"Oh look a Sadako, let's DC because all they do is slug condemned"
I run gen block/jolt and mid to low tier addons.
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Basekit decisive strike, but something like:
First hook tunnel, only active if nobody else was chased or injured: 3 second stun, lasts 20 seconds, deactivates on conspicuous actions, no collision with killer.
Second hook if nobody else was hooked: Increase to 5 second stun, lasts 20 seconds, deactivates on conspicuous, no collision.
Current Decisive Strike increases stun by 1 second and adds 10 seconds to the timer and removes skill check requirement.
Granted other things would need to be balanced around it, but I think it's a fine tradeoff.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
IMO the Devs want to avoid that Killers run Endgame-Builds. Because, unlike Survivors, Killers can actually do this. Endgame-Builds for Killers are probably the most boring things so far and the Devs worked against that on other occasions (You can escape with a RBT when you get one once all Gens are done, old Freddy was basically used as Endgame-Killer for 90% of the games).
And they probably want to avoid that Killers run around with a Build which does nothing for the majority of the match and just get their Kills in Endgame. E.g. Batteries Included, NOED, No Way Out, Remember Me. Nobody can say that this would be a fun build to play or play against, when the Killer is basically perkless before Gens are done and then runs around with 124% Movement Speed and Instadown.
As much as I wanna say I've seen far too much Hope+Adreneline to agree that survivors don't plan for endgame builds, I will agree that killer build would be oppressive as hell, especially on high mobility killers like Wraith or Skull Merchant with enough lock ons. I feel like Batteries Included is such a weird perk to balance that they did the right thing, but it's just a weird perk to begin with.
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I'm going to go through this without any bias on either side
Killers did have the gen kick meta for months and SM's extremely problematic 3 gen scenario for nearly as long, while survivors have had dead hard for very long, MFT for months, and still have the buckle up+for the people meta, so I won't say anything about 'that side had this for this long' arguments.
However, if we compare MFT to Batteries Included, Batteries only worked near completed gens with a limited time away from them compared to no time limit as long as you're injured with MFT. I do think they should have tackled haste stacking, but MFT in it's pre-change state would still be an issue with M1 killers because of how maps are laid out and how loops are placed in general, something survivors already have more power to use than killers, and did nothing for dead zones. That aside, Batteries would have been potentially oppressive with NOED at endgame, which is understandable, but it's already a niche perk outside that combo that doesn't really benefit too well since you're already away from current objectives for a haste bonus. Deactivating at endgame is silly, but I understand why it should because of NOED, and unless they nerf the haste bonus on NOED they'd need to tone down Batteries. Honestly I'd rather them be extra careful about haste bonuses than let it run rampant like MFT has been.
I do think out of all killers though, Wraith will benefit massively from it. Why? Wraith can already move fast when cloaked. Imagine if survivors slam a few center gens, you now have an extra 5% between targets while cloaked. Sure you'd need to fit it into a build, but I'd wager with a pallet shred build you could replace something like Spirit Fury and get the movement benefits.
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If playing the match more results in more suffering so I want it over with, if hatch opens up nearby where I'm taking a survivor to hook (challenges get priority though), if it's a match where we farm because multiple survivors DC/Throw on hook, or if one survivor is such a pain in the butt to their teammates as much as myself then everyone else gets to go.
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Some are quite far apart, others are so close together it makes no sense. I remember a single corner on Garden of Joy had 5 pallets within stun duration distance of each other. Not talking 1/4th of the map, this was more like 1/16th of the corner of the map or something along those lines.
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@Xxjwaynexx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3590434#Comment_3590434
Haven't heard this mentioned before, but It wouldn't work either. I haven't used perks on nurse for almost year. I don't need to see auras to know where survs are gonna path most of the time. Renami mentioned a system to charge her power similar to Oni, then she can blink for a set period of time, or longer fatigue that would make misses much more punishing, while making matchbox base kit
I assume if you have a blink you'd revert to her normal speed though right? I feel as if that'd feel extremely clunky as well as the fatigue camera forcing you around, especially for longer if they extend it. Not saying it's a bad idea or anything or it isn't needed, just playing Nurse already gives me a headache even when I do extremely well because of the fatigue, adding the speed changes would feel like whiplash.
I guess all I could recommend on top of my idea is a slightly longer teleport move speed so you need to be more accurate as well as work around the blind? This is just from me playing Nurse a bit mind you, Nurse mains would probably have a better idea about balancing, or at least those with more hours like yourself.
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Honestly with nurse all they need to really do is make her get the blind effect during a blink charge.
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"I think it's fun but it's a time commitment and the community is toxic, play at your own risk" Is what I say.
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I honestly don't want to read another complaint survivors have about perks after the MFT meta.
And I consider myself as fair between sides as I can. I don't see killers defending even UW as much as MFT was.
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@Rudjohns said:
Dull Merchant's wet dream
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/NGNAWTGY1X89/vlcsnap-2023-11-20-09h31m28s424.png
My Sadako with just Jolt would love this setup, what even is this?
Another reason I think the swamp maps need an overhaul.
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Dissolution.
Love playing loops against players who don't pay attention to it.
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I use NSP because I also run Dark Devotion+Gearhead for stealth rushing, and gives the obsession the choice of either following me and revealing others, but giving them a fair head start or running away and hoping my gearhead doesn't show anyone on a gen.
Honestly it's kinda fun.
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The way I see it, it's a double edged sword.
The nature of a Asym game like this needs to have the power tilt toward the 1 opposing the 4, not too much and not too little. All 4 survivors together should be strong when coordinated, but killer should benefit more from mistakes than survivors, at least that's how I'd see it.
As far as coordinated SWF compared to SoloQ, it's a problem that sadly only comms would help with and most of us wouldn't like that knowing this community. And yes, I do think both sides have some very oppressive perks, but I agree survivor has more of them this current meta. I also think most killers can get away without tunneling someone out at 5 gens, others need the pressure.
Honestly I think the biggest problem to me is SoloQ feels more like a 1v1v3, where team based tactics aren't rewarded enough. Survivors have the tools to work around most killers but can't coordinate well enough. And it doesn't help the game doesn't give enough resources to learn how to play around the more mechanically complex killers so a lot of players don't know where to be or what to do.
Some of my best matches as solo survivor was simply taking hits for others or being patient with unhooks so the killer wouldn't immediately chase off unhook, or builds to rush down gens hoping the other 3 are doing the prior. And as killer, I have a lot more fun when the survivors are actually participating in these plays more than just rushing the gens and leaving, which honestly makes me feel like maybe getting someone out asap is the play which I dislike a lot. But we all know this stuff at this point, I think.
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Artorias skin for Knight
Gravelord Nito skin for Dredge
I'd say Sister of Izalith skin for Plague but BHVR would need to replace the puke with fire, visually
Perhaps Manus skin for Oni? Not 100% on that one.