Blueberry
Blueberry
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@Moz said:
The problem with exhaustion perks in general is with their design. Like Deliverance, second chance perks should require some sort of effort on the part of the survivor to activate. They either need some sort of meaningful negative affix upon use or they need to be earned. As of right now they still have neither of those things.
Something as simple as complete 1 gen to active X exhaustion perk would at least be a meaningful addition. It would require survivors to not play so risky in the early game and equate to more dropped pallets early on.
Totally agree.
They have zero cost, zero downside, zero requirement ect, yet are also simultaneously the strongest perk effects in the game..makes no sense.
Killer perks almost all have some variation of those negatives I listed and the only ones that don’t are very weak effects.
It’s a double standard in perk design.
As you mentioned Deliverance is a very balanced and well designed perk, it’s how the other second chance perks should be.
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I disagree with him. The perk is fun but if it was not strong, it would drop to near none existence. People absolutely would not run DH if it was only for fun.
People run DH because of how strong it is.
People also would not complain about sprint bursts ect, that’s just not a thing. The other exhaustion perks you play around, DH you actually feel cheated out of a down, that doesn’t happen with the others.
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@hailxsatanxeveryxday said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359140#Comment_3359140
I'm not sure about this.
I predrop a lot of pallets, and I'm not a good survivor. I do it because I don't know how to loop, so I'd rather just stall the killer for five seconds than risk going down even quicker than that.
If they just predrop every pallet on the map, you're kicking them just as soon as they can drop them, which is the main goal of a first and second chase in a game with an M1 killer.
If you're talking about predropping against specific killers as a counterplay (it doesn't make sense to not predrop pallets against Nurse, Spirit, Nemi, etc.), that's one thing, but that's how you're supposed to deal with those killers.
Well that’s kind of the problem with pre dropping. It can win you games even if you aren’t good at looping with how fast gens are, that’s why even the really good comp loopers pre drop.
I actually don’t think that’s the m1 killers goal in the first couple minutes. Of course varies which killer as well. if you’re just kicking pallets that are pre drops for the first few minutes you’ve basically already lost the game.
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@jinx3d said:
i play everyone but i used to main ghostface primarily, like 6/10 games id be ghostie over any other killer, but in the current meta and the way his detection works makes him just... unfun. his stalking works like, once a game if im lucky, because once they know its ghostface, ill never get a full stalk off again. Stalking in chase takes longer than just hitting them twice most of the time. i play wesker primarily now. good, fun power with no bullshit detection, useful in most situations, and strong.
I can’t stand the lingered break out. Like I break line of sight and it still has a lingering break out. It’s way too generous on the survivor side for breaking him out. Also the flapping sound so they can hear me coming even though he’s a stealth killer. Those things annoy me about him.
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I’ve been maining Pig for a while actually, currently on a 94 win streak. Her lunge is generally speaking near worthless but her slow down from traps is very good and gives you time to play loops as an m1 killer. If you’re good at multitasking with macro game play you can also pressure the boxes. I get a head pop like 1/3 games and many of those I don’t would have more pops but they basically end up giving me a free down on them as they’re panicking to get it off from my pressuring. I like macro game play killers.
I do still think she’s bad and needs a lot of improvements, specifically in her crouch/ambush/addons, but I do think she’s better than people think she is.
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@hailxsatanxeveryxday said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359060#Comment_3359060
I sure wish I saw more predropping. Survivors I come across try to mindgame every pallet they can. They assume that you'll respect the pallet the first time and don't drop it, which gives them an extra loop or two around the pallet if they were right.
Obviously, not respecting pallets just results in taking a bunch of pallets to the face, because not everyone does that.
It varies. I think you see more pre dropping the higher mmr you go. I do think a lot of groups will test you though as well. If they can tell you’re a good mind gamer they’ll quickly switch to pre dropping.
Generally speaking if it’s an ultra safe loop like a jungle gym for example you never respect as that is extremely punishing if they fake you. The only ones you could consider respecting are the mind gameable ones. Can’t afford to ever respect safe loops.
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I think survivors have picked up more so on the map design and gen speed issues as well. I’ve started to see more groups just pre drop everything since they know that there’s enough overly safe loops once the pallets thrown that even throwing them that fast the gens will be nearly done by the time they run out. It’s quite annoying as you basically are just playing a pallet break simulator and not actually getting to even try to play skillful and play the game till you’re down to 1 gen or less. Hence all the tunnel someone out asap.
Prior people could at least stack tons of slow down/gen regression instead of the tunneling asap to compensate but as those get nerfed there’s only one option left.
If the majority of the games loops weren’t way overly safe once the pallet is thrown and more of a 50/50 mind game of who’s the more skilled player we’d see way less pre dropping.
Also maps in general need massive shrinking in size to be more playable.
People who don’t think tunneling is ever necessary to win (and no not just comp) I don’t think understand the games balance very well or play killer at a high mmr. While there are people who tunnel because it’s easy that’s not the majority, the majority is rectifying game balance issues.
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It depends what you’re trying to gather from that data. Are you trying to draw a conclusion about balance or just interesting stats? That changes what I would view as more important for recording.
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I would say they both require skill as DH has specific timing and Eruption still requires you to actually down survivors to get value which takes skill. I’d say they’re both heavily game swinging. DH changes the outcome of games at least as much as Eruption does in my opinion if not probably even more.
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If I was forcing a change I’d be closer to buffing her than nerfing her.
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I'd rather them just add increasing bloodpoint incentives for less played killers. So it would essentially scale the bonus on each killer based on their play rate.
This would increase killer diversity without punishing people for playing what they want. Carrot is better than the stick.
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I find LP to be redundant. It tells you information that good game sense already gives you. You have spawn points memorized. That's giving up an entire perk slot for a couple seconds extra aura reading essentially. Which unless you're going full aura reading build (which is more meme'y honestly) to benefit from that you'd be better off just throwing an extra aura read perk in its place.
It's good for learning spawns though I suppose.
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Well the worst we've had for different reasons were probably Twins, Ghostface, Blight, Legion and Skull Merchant.
Most were at least fixable though as they had solid foundations with some even turning out amazing later.
I'd probably say Skull Merchant though.
Even though the others were riddled with bugs and flawed design choices you could see the potential and a direction for fixing them. Skull Merchant is just a mess of unhealthy/unfun design, very weak, extremely rushed, flawed in her core concept, bad perks and frankly not even good looking in visuals or mori. She needs more than tweaks and number changes, she needs full functional changes and features added. It honestly really does feel like it was supposed to be a predator (prey) chapter and when things fell through they had to commit a bunch of time to quickly reskinning everything into an original and that time used for that took away from everything else that other chapters normally get.
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Based on how bad the balance is and the changes for balance we get you already know what the results of that question would look like unfortunately.
The game is currently balanced around a solo queue group of survivors with about 50 hours in the game each. Hence most the balance issues and confusing changes we see.
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This sounds like an awesome idea! That kind of customization would be great.
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That's tough.
Trickster, Knight, Myers, Freddy, Onryo, Ghostface, Pig
All really bad. If there was no addons I'd add Trapper, but his ultra rares bump him up at least off the bottom.
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@YOURFRIEND said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3358515#Comment_3358515
I will say it's absolutely hilarious that both of us independently arrived at BHVR laziness.
I wasn't necessarily meaning it like that. They may want to, just other priorities first.
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@YOURFRIEND said:
I can only assume it's because they didn't feel like making portrait art for more than 100 levels.
Yeah that's what I was thinking.
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@Seraphor said:
Because they only designed 100 prestige icons.
Seriously, it's all arbitrary, why does it matter? Why did you rush to P100 anyway if not for the P100 badge to show off in every lobby?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3358337#Comment_3358337
That's the idea. They don't want players pressured to get to P100, P9 IS fundamentally the last prestige, anything above that is just extra levels anyway.
Goals in video games matter. It gives people goals.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/366370/prestige-cap
Bring other character to P100 you can have more than just one.
Some people like to focus on solely their main.
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Nah man it seems pretty accurate to me. I agree on most all your points.
The difference in survivor and killer games isn't whether you win or lose, it's why you win or lose.
Most solo queue games are lost from either me or my team making bad plays. If we don't play bad, we win, and it's essentially a bully simulator.
What about games you lose as killer? Some lost through misplays, but way, way more lost through bad game design through unbalanced perks and extremely broken maps of which there are a lot. This is significantly less noticeable at low/mid tier games but very prevalent on the high end.
There are literally tons of matches on killer where as you watch it back you're like what could I have played better or done differently to change this outcome, and lots of the time the answer is nothing. This is a lack of agency for killers as you rely on survivor mistakes to win for most killers. This is exclusively a killer experience, you do not have lack of agency as survivor. Every survivor game I rewatch you can see where different choices and different plays could have changed the outcome either by you or teammates. Now we could call it lack of agency if you're playing perfectly but your team is playing bad, however it's a 4v1, not a 1v1, so their mistakes are your mistakes. This whole factor is thrown out the window as well once you start doing 3/4 man swf of which is significantly more common at the top end.
I play my survivor games to relax, as it is a very relaxing experience. Even the worst experience survivor matches with bad teammates and toxic killers is not even remotely close to the experience as the worst killer match. This is even solo queue mind you. Anyone who thinks survivor, even solo queue, is a worse experience than playing killer at the high end I don't think actually plays killer at the high end.
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They all look like decent and fair changes to me, I like.
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Killer perks are all trash and won’t be seen at all outside initial release.
Teamwork perks are awful. The whole “teamwork” gimmick is just a bad idea imo.
Bloodrush is going to be in the meta and way too strong. Unhealthy design as it punishes players for not tunneling.
Background Player doesn’t look great but will be extremely annoying in swf squads. Will see more use than people think.
Cut loose looks like a fun perk we’ll see used. It’s gonna be way scarier than people think it is. Sleeper very strong perk.
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@Defend said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3357591#Comment_3357591
I can agree with 1 and part of 2 (I don't think CtA should be base-kit).
For #3, instead of speed I'd rather have a decreased slowdown for guards when they are going through pallets and windows (based on your patrol distance of course, stronger the longer it is). First reason is independently, guards suck at both looping around objects and going through pallets/windows. If you ever played The Knight on Lery's you know how futile it is to use your power at all when all it takes is one or two windows to make your power have no pressure on the survivor. Too many times have I seen survivors loop a nearby window and grab the standard when I was too far away to react upon it. Even with the speed given to them as long as the survivor has either a rock to loop around or a window, guards will never catch up independently.
#4 feels unnecessary mainly because most of the time your patrol paths should just be hitting a survivor head-on or nearby for an instant hunt.
I think the only nerf he needs is a nerf to his anti-loop specifically. Like make guards vulnerable to pallets if your patrol path is less than 10~ (or less). The reason for a change like this is because usually survivors don't get the chance to grab the standard when used in anti-loop, that and there is no counter when The Knight uses his power in corners.
If a Knight isn't running CtA then I don't think they're playing him optimally to the best of his potential. I would literally even put it as more valuable than Map of the Realm.
"For #3, instead of speed I'd rather have a decreased slowdown for guards when they are going through pallets and windows (based on your patrol distance of course, stronger the longer it is). First reason is independently, guards suck at both looping around objects and going through pallets/windows."
I think this is a bad direction to go. If you aren't with the guard pincering them then this does nothing since they're just run in lines without interaction. It is effective if you are there pincering. That's the problem. With this change you're strengthening the play style that we don't want to encourage. This is the play style the devs are trying to push him away from.
"#4 feels unnecessary mainly because most of the time your patrol paths should just be hitting a survivor head-on or nearby for an instant hunt."
Exactly, that's my point. That's what you should already be doing. The difference is how good is the Knight doing it? That's the difference between a good or bad Knight which is entirely what I'm trying to emphasize here. Further rewarding the Knight the more skilled he is, but not buffing the bad Knights.
"I think the only nerf he needs is a nerf to his anti-loop specifically. Like make guards vulnerable to pallets if your patrol path is less than 10~ (or less)."
The change you were wanting to do above is exactly the opposite of what you're wanting here. Your previous change would be buffing his anti-loop. Yes above I'm sure you're referencing past 10 meters, but that change above is doing nothing unless you're there to anti-loop with the guard.
There also is currently a bug making them susceptible to pallets, it's quite bad. If you were wanting to make this a feature to nerf his anti-loop we would need significant buffs on his long range guards to compensate...like essentially at least everything I mentioned above at minimum.
"The reason for a change like this is because usually survivors don't get the chance to grab the standard when used in anti-loop, that and there is no counter when The Knight uses his power in corners."
There may be no counter to when you're in a corner against Knight...however, there's also no counter play for the Knight when the survivors are just holding W on a massive map. So it goes both way, and I'd argue those hold W moments for Knight happen way, way, way more often.
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3357591#Comment_3357591
That tome challenge to get two hits with the Assassin was just SO much fun. Really, why can't we have one for the other two guards? Hahaha ... *notices that we are only on page 3 of the current tome* .. Oh no no no ... oh no no no no!
Yeah I'm enjoying the Knight challenges as well. Not so much the ones requiring us to use his bad perks though, ew.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3357591#Comment_3357591
The survivor player that made the thread thinks that knight is unfun. those changes are positive buff changes. positive buff changes for killer are labelled as unfun for survivor.
Well his dislike is subjective so I'm never going to be able to change his mind. If that is the case, the only option left is improvements for the people that do like him.
I wouldn't try and suggest changes for a problem someone has that I don't think is a problem.
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Before I read what hook # you thought I was thinking 5 as well. 5 is playing decently fair as if someone dies on 5 no one was really tunneled out, but you were still hooking efficiently.
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I'm down for removing those features but unfortunately the game is currently balanced around requiring it at the high end. Fix the high level to where it's no longer required and I'm down for that. Make 12 hook games viable.
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@Mandy said:
They were delayed for the forum rework...they've all got to be created, it does take time to do, and my team has this on the list but there have been higher priorities right now. They will get done.
Awesome! That's good to hear, thank you for responding and keeping us updated on this.
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@jinx3d said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3357616#Comment_3357616
thats odd. maybe they were delayed because of the forum rework?
I mean it seems pretty wild that adding something as little as a profile picture takes almost a year after that chapters release.
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@jinx3d said:
who are we missing?
Wesker, Dredge, Onryo, all the corresponding survivors.
That's just off the top of my head looking, there might be more.
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I've wanted them to add a feature where the person on the hook gains a percentage of the bloodpoints that his teammates gain as an incentive to give them more time.
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No self healing at all, keep the speed on allies, show injured teammates auras when inside the boons radius to each other. I like the snuffing on hook part though.
Gives a reset point for the team and shows each other when someone needs a heal now.
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He doesn't need a rework, just some tweaks.
- 95% of his addons are trash. Please fix. Addon fixes here: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/363129/the-knight-addons#latest
- The few of his addons that aren't trash feel basically required. So even if you did fix his other addons we'd still be required to run these. Those would be Call to Arms and Map of the Realm, most would also add Horse Meat into that. Make these base kit and give the addons a new effect.
- Guards need more reliable hits. I know this sounds unhealthy but bare with me. The way we do this is by increasing the guards speed slightly based on how close the killer places his guard to the survivor he detects, but only if they are placed past 10 meters. This rewards the Knight with more potential for guards downing, but only if he is very skilled with reading the survivor and placing them well. This buffs very skilled Knights at high MMR, but doesn't hurt the lower MMR players as bad Knights wouldn't be able to utilize this.
- Make the guards green circles disappear on distance like the orb does.
Most of these changes buff the Knight without hurting lower MMR much at all and also without strengthing his 3 gen much as most all this extra power is based on long distance placements, not just throw downs at loops that people hate.
The whole idea that guards are meant for wasting time/pressuring another survivor instead of getting hits is flawed and straight up bad. You're essentially giving up your power to be an m1 killer with no abilities in order to keep one other survivor preoccupied for a little bit. I'm sorry that's just bad, really bad. That is not viable against actually good survivors being efficient on gens.
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Most of his addons are trash for that matter.
While a couple like Map of the Realm and Call to Arms are required to make him function as he should at base kit. Many would even throw Horse Meat in there as well.
You're solution for the addon I don't like though. It's still trash. It needs to be something entirely different.
In my opinion it should instead now allow you to see survivors while drawing your patrol path and increase placement distance by 10 meters similar to Call to Arms. This allows even more of the type of game play they want from Knight as well as increasing the mind game potential with his placements.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3356968#Comment_3356968
I do not think so. i think you can have fast healing and unlimited healing but the killer has to have fast hit confirmation and fast hit catch-up. The killers need to be like blight where you get an m1 hit and killer can nearly instant catch-up the survivor to continue engaging with the chase. Blight's alchemist ring is a great example of that gameplay. He bounces 3 times, get a hit, power refreshes, uses ability instantly catch-up, gets a hit. that is what every killer should strife to be. Fast-paced high-action chase interaction.
Because hit confirms for blight are coming at an average of 15 seconds per hit, fast healing makes a lot of sense. Nurse is like that as well disregarding the recharge add-on nerfs, its similar time to down with blink-blink hit, blink-blink-hit. in the context of a strong chase killer, fast healing makes sense. The problem is that this is not your average killer. your average m1 killer is walk someone approaching a generator, survivor is pre-running forward due to terror radius stalling the chase for 20-30 seconds. The killer gets into a chase and starts building bloodlust, the killer finally gets a hit, now the killer has to walk forward for 20 seconds because of speed boost+cooldown and amist all this, you have to deal with safe pallets that force killer to break pallets(because it is time inefficient to bloodlust+some loops are physically impossible to get survivor at), so in between all this gameplay. you have pre-run 30 seconds, break,break, break,hit-break, break, break pallet, hit. this whole formula for m1 killers is way too slow. This problem has multiple issues but in regard health-states, hold-w with health-state should never be rewarding. Healing time should always be slower then running forward for health-states. health-states in my opinion should be second-chances towards looping itself, not some build-in time-waste mechanic for the killer. This is why if they expanded their lower-hit speed burst to 1.5 seconds instead of 1.8 seconds and more hit cooldown reduction similar to their 10 second base-kit BT with 10% haste, hold-w through health-states would be less effective time-wasters and body-blocking(which is one of problems with swf) would be much more difficult to abuse because the killer would be more machine-gun oriented. M1 chase-type killer would more fast-paced at least towards health-states because they would get hits as fast as survivor can heal.
The only type of killer where fast healing does not work is stealth killers. that is because stealth killer are based off the idea of capitalizing off injured survivors, detaching chases and being unpredictable. In order for stealth killers to optimize their hit&run tactics, they need perks that make healing difficult. there are no current perks in the game that reduce healing speed enough for their hit & run unpredictability to be effective so this all whole genre of killers is completely dead and has been completely dead for most of dbd lifespan. in old days, it was dead because of self-care perk healing survivors 24 seconds and in the new dbd, its dead because of Circle of healing/med kit spamming(from increase bloodpoint changes). stealth killer lack perks to off-set these advantages that are normally balanced around top-tier chasing-type killers.
I mean that’s kind of an irrelevant point as of course yeah if hits are fast enough then the fast self healing wouldn’t matter but that’s not going to happen. Survivors already take issue with those few killers that do get hits fast enough. That’s like saying fast self heals wouldn’t matter if survivors only took 1 hit to down now instead of 2…well yeah, but that’s not going to happen. You’d have a significantly more likelyhood of the devs slowing the game down for longer hits to be okay than vice versa which is what you’re referencing. Which slowing things down would be a much healthier route anyway as then the survivors get their long chases which are fun for them but it’s okay because then the games are slowed down enough to where the killers can have those long chases but it doesn’t cost them the game like it does now.
Essentially I think you’re talking about taking the longest and most work intensive as well as least fun route to fixing the problem.
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Some interesting ideas. Essentially medkits need to be generally speaking for healing teammates, not yourself. The fast self heals from them are what make them broken. So keep them good for healing teammates but very limited on yourself.
Self healing in dbd to be balanced always needs to be very slow, limited or require multiple perk synergies. It can’t be as easy, fast, and near infinite as it currently is with medkits and CoH. It basically can’t ever be “good” without heavy limitations and requirements.
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I mean I see people intentionally spam smack people on a hook to get them to dc or give up and increase their chances of winning by moving on to the next camp target. So I guess so? The other two I would just call toxic.
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@IlliterateGenocide said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3356778#Comment_3356778
Unless it's medkits, I wouldn't call most items as "unfair" maybe specific toolboxes
And both those exceptions cover like 90% of lobbies.
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Killers can’t afford to waste a perk slot on franklins, they’re significantly more perk dependent than survivors. Why run franklins when you can dodge the lobby till it’s a fair match? That’s what i see anyway.
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It’s unfortunate those things happen but it’s not holding the game hostage, the game will end. Holding hostage refers to not allowing the game to end without a disconnect. It’s not that big of a deal though. I get games like that every now and then too. I’ll get downed by a ghost face for example and they’ll just stand over me tbagging while I bleed out. I don’t know the person and I didn’t do anything. This really doesn’t bother me much, I just tab out and start watching a video, no big.
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Alien
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A balanced perk, definitely doesn’t need nerfs.
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If items were actually balanced I wouldn’t care that much about this, however they’re not, not even remotely. Medkits are wildly overtuned and toolboxes to a lesser degree.
The different between a match with 0 medkits and 4 medkits is astronomical.
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@Tostapane said:
because this will convince killers at a certain mmr to leave once and for all the game, that's why... I'm talking for experience: playing killer at high mmr is MISERABLE, especially if you don't have the right killers (and most of the times i play with the weakest killers with mediocre addons so you can imagine what i must endure on a daily basis) and you are aganist sweaty SWF squads. If you are lucky aganist those squads you'll do only 3 hooks before all the gens wiil be completed. Sometimes you can get more hooks in the endgame, so if you look at the stats of hooks par game well, those aren't truthful regarding how it went a match... i can tell you a personal anedocte: once i was aganist a premade quite souspitious since they did all gens in so few time that i barely did a 2nd hook, but that match ended in a 4k due to the noed that i had and their excessive confidence/arrogance (for the stats i overperformed so killers need to be nerfed i guess /s)... all this teach us that stats aren't a thing that should be considered to be taken into balancing the game (or at least not a primary thing to consider) because you can play well your cards and win by camping a survivor that was catched before the last gen pop and keep downing the survivors, but again, these downs/hooks aren't made because of you, but because of their altruism (those groups usually want at all costs a 4 escape and this is their only weak point)
This ^.
This is why the only relevant stats I’d want to see are only hooks made by the time the gates are powered, not after, AND hooks, not hook stages achieved through camping. This would give us a completely different view of the game than all these flawed kill rates that aren’t representative of the games balance.
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I don’t see an issue with map offerings, the issue is map balance. If maps were better balanced these wouldn’t be a problem.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3355540#Comment_3355540
i would like one that removes the super loud noises from dredge during nightfall. OP post is exactly what I asked many months ago when Ghostface got reworked, but nothing occur. The whole losing stalk progress is like Myer's losing EV2 progress when m1 a survivor. makes no sense.
Yeah I agree
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I’d also just like the “whooshing” sound removed so he could actually sneak up on survivors.
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Facts.