Basement_Bubba420
Basement_Bubba420
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I looked it up and Legion has a 1 sec CD after hitting a survivor as opposed to the 2.7 sec CD for a normal basic attack. I'm assuming the movement speed is around the same so 0.5m/s but I think its dependent on his movement speed.
Feral Slashes:
- Attack Open time: 0.5 seconds
- Attack Hitting time: 0.3 seconds
- Successful Attack cool-down: 1 second
- Missed Attack cool-down: 0.225 second
- Obstructed Attack cool-down: 0.225 second
I'm making the killer at 0m/s because IDK their movement speed after the hit, a hit in the open often involves a large or a wide swing to counter juking so there is some reorientation time, and the bloody screen/lack of collision makes it harder to see where the survivor went so part of that second is spent finding the target. It's probably around 20% more than the normal speed after a hit but again, IDK. This would be around .7m in total distance I think. I applied this to both scenarios I presented. So if we include the 1 second of inactivity you would get the numbers I got previously.
For the pallets, I was referring to pallets left on the ground during previous chases. Survivors would need to get the pallet stun during a chase or get a single use out of lithe during a mind game before the killer realizes it and breaks the pallet for all subsequent chases. I agree that Lithe is effective when you land the stun but that is dependent on the killer just like Overcome's usefulness being killer dependent.
Yes, I know it's usage is low. DH had a low usage for a long time. I think alot of people are sleeping on Overcome. DH is still the best exhaustion perk overall because when used correctly it can provide a much longer extension to chase times depending on the skill of the survivor. Overcome just lets the survivor run in a straight line to make distance and discourage the killer from chasing them. Also DH is best against the top tier killers who can make up distance easily.
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Hooks per kill, hooks before first kill, amount of time spent "camping", time till each gen pops, length of chases, result of chases, time spent in the dying state, hatch escapes, afks/disconnects/self destruction on hook, map frequency, item/addon frequency, swfs encountered, bp scores in a match, saves/stuns when carrying, sabos
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3360585#Comment_3360585
Balancing around top level play will kill the game.
Balance around the average player.
Yes, the game should be balanced in such a way that appeals to both the average player and the top player. Ideally you would target the upper 50% with more weight towards those in the middle. Players should have to understand that they need a certain level of absolute knowledge in a game.
Looking at the current state of the game now and how changes have been implemented that doesn't appear to be the case. I have no idea who they're targeting with some of these balance changes.
What was the point of killing Self Care?
How did CoH make it into the game with a 100% boost to healing?
Why was the initial decision to kill Eruption?
There needs to be a more cohesive and targeted vision behind these changes.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359949#Comment_3359949
Sorry some of your arguments aren't really making much sense to me
How does the issue between overcome and legion exist with the other exhaustion perks?
The moment overcome activates is when Legion their power bar is refilled. So they will always be able to follow you while in their increased speed power.
With something like Lithe you can wait untill after they exhaust themself and then vault something forcing them to chase e distance you made as a normal 115 killer. That's a huge difference
Also how is Lithe bad on the Game or Midwich? You know it triggers on pallet vaults too right?
Both of those maps have a lot of loops in dead ends where if the killer runs them correctly leave you trapped after you drop the pallet.
With Lithe when you stun the killer you can instantly vault and get out of the dead end and on top of that leave the killer the awkward choice of chasing you instantly or breaking the pallet. Most of the time they just chase you instantly meaning you can use the pallet later again
And while it is true that some exhaustion perks only work well on specific maps (balanced landing indeed being the biggest offender of this) you have some semblence of control over this with map offerings, you have zero control over which killer you face and how nice they will play to allow you to heal after being unhooked
With all said though it does all boil down to preference. If you can make Overcome work then all the power to you. Glad somebody can make use of it. For me it's just not consistant enough but at the end of the day that's just a oppinion
- Yes, Legion can always follow you while they're in their power. Legion will either take the hit on the survivor and change targets or single out the survivor and cut them off after the on hit speed boost expires. With Lithe, you take the hit, gain 6.48m (not entirely sure about Legion's CD on feral frenzy hit) on Legion and Legion reaches you (point blank) in 6.3 seconds. With Overcome, you take the hit, gain 9.96m and reaches you (point blank) in 10.91 seconds. In one case, Legion has control of the chase because they can get in front of you. In the other case, Legion cannot reach you and is forced into the exhaust.
- Yes. Why would a killer leave a pallet up on those maps? They're pallet centric maps. OFC you can stun them and run through them but that relies on you stunning them and then you have to backtrack through them which costs you distance.
- Yes, you cant control over the killer your facing against. You also cant control their map offerings or the offerings of others. What difference does this make here?
- Yes, its a matter of personal preference. I'm just saying that Overcome isn't a low tier exhaustion perk. It's probably just below a well managed SB and below DH. Because of its ease of use and its effectiveness against so many killers it's probably better than having to manage SB.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359907#Comment_3359907
If your teammates brought Borrowed time you had 12 seconds of endurance, most killers just always assumed borrowed time was there so even if your teammate didn't have it there was a big chance the killer would wait to hit you.
The chance of you not reaching any vault/pallet/ whatever you need is so low that i can hardly count it. You would have to be hooked in the deadest of dead zones for that to happen
But in case you need more here's a list of all the situations of the top of my head Overcome does nothing
Play vs Plague, doesn't trigger on broken
Play vs Billy/Bubba, if you are in a situation where you can't force an m1 overcome won't help you
Play vs blight, he will very quickly make up the distance overcome creates, not entirely useless ofcourse but still.
Play vs Legion, either he spreads frenzy and you had a speedboost at a time you didn't need it or they follow you with a refreshed frenzy very quickly closing in the distance you just made. You'll also be helping them so much by wasting time healing to trigger your exhaustion perk
Vs Oni, if he's in rage mode overcome won't help you. Atleast vs him people are more heal happy so teammates will help you stay healthy more
Vs myers/ghostface, get tier 3'd or marked overcome does nothing
And while hit and run was pretty much dead cause of CoH it wouldn't do much against that either cause you'll be getting your speedboost when you don't need it
Killer gets 3 stacks of devour, haunted ground gets triggered, end game rancor, noed, pretty much every exposed perk ever. Overcome does nothing
It's a little better now with OTR and sone killers triggering the endurance to get rid of dead hars but before that it was horrible. You also never saw it. I know cause i payed attention to it.
In the month after it released i saw it 3 times, 2 for adept and one trying a lucky break build with it. And with me playing Legion it did absolutely nothing for them.
The upsides don't make up for the downsides. For me it's the worst exhaustion perk so far. New chapter will probably change that though
Survivors often go down in dead zones and get hooked in a dead zone. Going down is the result of using up the pallets or losing the mind game. Vaults may still exist.
Most of the issues you described can be applied to the other perks as well.
Lithe on RPD, The Game, Midwich.
Balanced on just about every map except Haddonfield.
SB is the generalist perk but needs careful management.
The issues with Overcome and Legion exist with all the other exhaustion perks as well, except maybe not Dead Hard.
Billy/Bubba same thing w/ the other exhaustion perks.
Plague is correct and exclusive to Overcome.
Myers/Ghostface exposed, yes same hard counter.
Yes, there are certain killers and effects (almost exclusively exposed effects) that counter overcome.
But Artist/Trapper/Pinhead/Freddy/Clown/Trickster/PH/Knight can counter lithe very easily. They all have tools that either make the vault dangerous either through hinderance, force damage, or cut off the loop.
Most of the exhaustion perks have counters either through gameplay or abilities.
I don't think it's worst exhaustion perk so far. Definitely better than balanced landing and lithe imo. Maybe on par or below SB and below DH.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359794#Comment_3359794
Not really, you can use most other exhaustion perks in that situation
If there is a vault nearby you can use lithe, if there is a drop nearby you can use BL, if you can pallet stun the killer you can zoom off with smash hit, you can even jump in a locker and head on them
Overcome is the only exhaustion perk so far that does absolutely nothing untill you are healed. Same for exposed the only other exhaustion perk that gets screwed by one shots is dead hard and that is one time cause you'll be injured then.
I can list so many situations Overcome does nothing where other exhaustion perks can do atleast something it's not even funny.
I do want to make clear cause my wording was a little weird that i do think the devs should listen to pro players. Just not blindly and only to pro players
If baby dwight who has been playing for 2 days complaints about trapper being op they should check the data and then see trapper isn't doing well so it's a case of dwight needing to get better
But if a pro player says something they also should check to see if what they are saying is right by checking what is happening in games
The chances the pro players are right are ofcourse higher but it their words shouldn't be automaticaly have more merrit.
I do kinda wish the devs and the higher up players communicated more, looked up how LoL was doing cause of this thread and found like a 3 hour interview between a dev and a pro player.
I would love to see Otz and others be able to ask questions and have more insight on their design philosophy. Sadly i think the hostile nature of the community kinda ruined that from ever happening
All the situations you described require a prerequisite condition to be activated. Overcome has a prerequisite of being healed or having endurance.
If there are no pallets nearby no smash hit.
If there are no vaults nearby no lithe.
If there are no drops nearby no bl.
Overcome can activate with endurance. It's the only condition that's present 100% of the time. The other condition is to be healed. Which is present when another survivor is there which is most of the time.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359677#Comment_3359677
Its definitely gatekeeping.
Unfortunately for you it seems, new players feedback is valuable. If they feel that certain mechanics are too punishing, we should look into that and consider changes.
One current example is Overcharge. Very punishing to new players, not so good against more experienced players.
Couldn't new players just learn how to handle it instead of having the perk changed? Isn't that part of any game.... learning the game?
Sure if its too difficult maybe take a look at it. But if something is actually too difficult it won't be just the new players complaining about it. Either people will eventually adapt and no longer consider it a problem or just complain about it perpetually.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359728#Comment_3359728
Problem with Overcome is that it's only good in specific circumstances
Calculate how much distance Overcome generates if a killer tunnels you of hook before you can heal.
then calculate how much distance Overcome generates vs a insta down killer or any of the exposed perks
Spoiler the answer is zero in both cases
Remember when Overcome came out there wasen't OTR that gave you 80 seconds of endurance of hook. It was pretty much a dead perk the mayority of the maych if you couldn't heal before the killer found you.
It's a bit better now with more sources of endurance but at the time it was a trap. You were basically holding out a neon sign that said Tunnel me i'm defenseless against it
It doesn't matter it's strong vs m1 killers, those are not the killers people need help against. A blight will laugh at the distance overcome creates
As for the experience thing this is what the problem is with listening to pro players
If i had to build a house ofcourse i would listen to the 20 year experienced builder
Thing is pro players aren't builders. They don't develop games.
What you are actually asking when you say who i would listen to is 7 year old experienced home builders (the devs) or people who have spend 7 years in a lot of different houses and know from experience what to look out for.
People who lived in a lot of different houses may know from experience what was wrong with their previous houses and know to look out for that. But they'll very likely not know as much as the person who makes the houses in the first place
Both the first and second case also apply to any exhaustion perk except maybe SB depending on how quickly you get unhooked.
I'm not sure what's significant about either of these scenarios. The problems exist for all perks except for maybe DH.
No, the pro players don't develop games you're correct. That's why they're there to help balance them. They don't need to code, create a development plan, QA the features, etc... They just need to come up with ideas or identify problematic areas.
I am not saying that BHvR should only hire pro players either. It's just that there should be people on the team, ESPECIALLY THE BALANCE TEAM, that have a good mastery and understanding of the game.
You're not hiring these people to code although if they can that's great! They're hired to think, to come up with solutions, and to provide a better perspective to the people who are implementing the changes. Maybe the Blight hug tech could have been caught before release, maybe his collision could have been better, and maybe the Nurse's problematic playstyle could have been altered.
They're two different jobs and they should be treated as such. If one person can fulfill both roles, great! That's an amazing asset to have on any team for any project.
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After the meta shake up I was pretty excited for the future of the game.
Since the lack of any meaningful changes since then, multiple lackluster killers, and still a huge lack in QoL I've lost most of my interest in this game.
Still no search function for perks.
Most perks are genuinely useless or unfun.
Bloodweb STILL has no quick buy option. I still have to wait half a second to buy the damn node.
Newest killer shows complete lack of understanding of the game. So bad that it's universally panned for its power, lore, and appearance.
Lots of killers are pretty garbage against survivors that actually know how to play the game.
Gen regression meta is still the norm after 6 years.
Still lots of tunneling and camping.
Matches vary wildly to the point I just feel bad for the killer or survivors.
SWF is still king if you want to win.
Meta shift is seemingly a one time thing, didn't actually produce a meta shift, and many perks are left in the dust.
All in all it's a game that's stagnated. BHvR is seemingly at a loss on what to do other than a new killer/survivor every 3 months.
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@BlueHorkew said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/366455/eruption-vs-dead-hard
More rewards bad players to kick gens by stalling matches to no end.
Rose tinted glasses are strong.
Seeing clips of DH plays are exciting, blood boiling for the killer.
Being incapacitated is exciting for no one.
Also, if you are a bad player with DH, he is basically a free kill, he probably can't use it well to begin.
If you're a bad player you're a free kill regardless.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3358877#Comment_3358877
I think the misunderstanding we are having is that i am talking about windows and you about pallets
With pallets you are correct, if you could hit them at the last second they can dead hard and be mostly safe. You can't hit the dead hard and when they reach the pallet you get stunned and don't get the hit
With windows it's different. You don't get stunned. You can hit them while they are vaulting. They can't have dead hard endurance during the vault. Unlike pallets there is nothing stopping you from hitting them.
With old dead hard the distance they gained meant they were out of your reach so you couldn't hit them while they vaulted
Do want to remind that i'm not arguing dead hard is fine now. Just that saying that the devs accomplished nothing by changing DH from dash to endurance isn't really correct
I agree now.
Previously there was no vulnerability "window" when the survivor used DH because the killer was physically incapable of making the distance and the survivor made the vault.
Now there is vulnerability window although because of the buffer provided by DH its rather small and in the survivors favor unless the killer is very close.
So this was a good thing overall but not enough imo.
The survivor should either nail the DH and be rewarded or whiff and go down. Not whiff the DH and still make the vault or pallet.
Introduce a 1 second window of uninteractibility for the survival. Either the survivor nails the DH and gets to transition to another tile or they miss and go down. In its current form, DH can reward the survivor even when they screw it up and that's the point of the perk.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359736#Comment_3359736
So, you're saying that killers should stop slugging for the 4k to combat this horrific epidemic?
By letting the last survivor have hatch, you deflate the kill rates and inevitably guarantee killer buffs when kill rates drop too far.
Yes the hatch thing is true.
It's also true that AFK killers could inflate escape rates. I'm assuming that BHVR knows when killers are AFK and doesn't include them in the stats. It should be easy to tell that the killer was in 0 chases, broke 0 pallets, etc... but who knows its BHvR.
Farm games where the killer farms/trolls also inflate escape rates.
It's why these "kill statistics" aren't very helpful.
As for killers slugging, if they want the 4k they should slug. No sense in playing RNG with the hatch.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359716#Comment_3359716
So you think an organized group of what, FIFTY THOUSAND people, decided to try to skew BHVR's stats on purpose?
Sorry, I'm just not buying it. Proof?
No I don't think that. All that I'm saying is that even a small percentage of players can skew the statistics if they choose to die on first hook. Even if just 1% or .1% of them decide to do it, that's 1% or .1% more games that result in 3-4ks. The statistics they release have intervals of 25%. These are shifts of .25% and 0.025% respectively to the overall kill rate.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
The thing is also that i don't actually believe there are that many people that really know this game well enough to have their voice more important then others
Who should the devs listen too? Otz that didn't understand that 50% speed reduction means that a task takes twice as long?
Scott Jund that was convinced Overcome would be close too if not stronger then old dead hard while it was close to the worst exhaustion perk in the game when released?
I don't want to downplay the skill of these people as they are really good at the game but to say their voice is more important then others doesn't seem right.
They miss the ball quite often too
Overcome is still a great perk. What's wrong with it? It heavily punishes m1 killers for hitting you. In all honesty, it's probably just a a bit weaker than DH but it's easier to use. You literally don't have to do ANYTHING.
Overcome provides 2 extra seconds of on hit sprint. 3.8 seconds at 6.6 m/s is 25.08m.
Killer covers 6.6125m. At this point it would take the killer 41.8 seconds to catch up point blank or 31.8 seconds to get back into lunge range. Assuming the survivor is actually good at maintaining distance and ran directly away from the killer. At this point, it may be better for the killer to just drop the chase. The main issue is that survivors just need to position themselves to take advantage of the incoming hit so they don't waste valuable time running into things or pathing.
Anyway, you can cherry pick these examples as much as you want. Fact of the matter is both of these people know more about the game than the average player. I would trust them to deliver good changes more than the average player. I would trust them to deliver good changes more than the actual devs.
If you really believe what you said in your first sentence, who would you hire to build you a house? An experienced home builder with 20 years of experience or someone with 2 days worth of experience?
If the answer is yes than obviously experience with a task matters in completion and quality of that task. As experience goes up, quality will go up.
Anyway, the point isn't that just because someone plays the game alot or is really good at the game makes their voice "more important". The point is that their opinion is more likely to be backed by solid reasoning and understanding of the game than less experienced people. Just like the home builder example. It isn't carte le blanche for control over the direction of the game. it is a solid foundation to look at and build upon.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359412#Comment_3359412
That's hysterical that you think a game with millions of players had an organized group of players attempt to manipulate the stats and suceed.
Definitely funny, but unfortunately, also very sad.
Even if only 5% of games had someone who offed themselves on first hook that would skew the stats. Losing the first survivor at 5 gens will almost always cost survivors the game and lead to a 3-4k. From my own anecdotal experience, I'd wager around 5-10% of games have a survivor do this or just sit at the hook and wait to die after being saved. This is separate from DCs of course.
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@Peanits said:
What purpose would this actually serve other than encouraging elitism? One person's opinion is no more valid than someone else's just because their MMR is higher. Both of you are people playing a video game, we should be doing what we can to ensure that both of you have a good time. To say that only someone who's among the best in the world should have a say would imply that the opinions of the vast majority of people playing in the middle of the pack don't matter, which is incredibly selfish.
I really can't begin to stress how rare it is for someone to be near or above the matchmaking softcap for MMR. Far more people claim to be 'max MMR' when in reality, there's nowhere near that many people up there.
That said, that's what the community team is here for; to take feedback from everyone, including the people who are up there.
The purpose is that players who are in the top percentiles of MMR have a better understanding of the game. They invest more time and effort into learning the mechanics. Thusly, when changes need to be made they will have a better understanding of what exactly needs to change, what the options for change are, and what the expected outcomes of the change will be.
I am not saying that only the best players should have a say. It's just that what they do say carries more weight than the 2 day old baby Dwight complaining about Trapper. For baby Dwight, the solution to Trapper isn't to nerf him. It's to learn the strategies to counter him. Check possible loops ahead of time before doing a gen. Check the ground at key points during a chase. Memorize where traps can go inside the terrain and become invisible. Learn what the different addons do. Work with your team to disable traps for them while they are in chase. These are all good solutions that don't involve mechanical changes to Trapper.
Yes 2% of the top rated players is rare. There's 3 million copies of DbD sold. AFAIK, there's around 1 million daily players. There's a pool of 20,000 in the top 2%. Certainly, one can gain feedback from them.
Some of these balance changes just don't make sense. The initial version of the Eruption change was awful. The Incap effect was the problem, it could have been removed or reduced. The regression wasn't an issue. Under the old Eruption, a survivor lost around 30 seconds of gen time. 10% regression on the generator, 20 seconds of incap. The first PTB version the survivor lost at most around 10 seconds from the % current regression. That's if the gen is at 99%. I guess the average would be around 5%. That's around 5 seconds. So it's around 1/6th of the previous slowdown.
This was a MASSIVE nerf and killed the perk. Thankfully the % total regression was returned. However, you didn't need everyone on the PTB screaming to learn this would have been a bad idea. One person who understands the game well on the team could have looked at this and said "Hey, if we make this change it isn't a regression perk anymore, so why even keep the regression? Let's just rework it entirely into something else then." And that's a totally fine change to make.
Maybe the perk could be more interesting, maybe it inflicts blindness and oblivious for a while making rescuing harder. Maybe it starts regressing and locks down pallets and vaults in an area around it for some time period forcing survivors to get out or deal with the killer but still having the opportunity to work on the gen if its close to being finished.
Many of the perks we have are bad, not interesting, and most importantly not fun. It seems like if the game is going to be in a more healthy state with more varied builds there needs to be people on the development team that play it thoroughly and understand it.
This isn't elitism, this is about making changes to a game that's been around for six years and making them optimally. If I am looking for someone to construct my house I'm not gonna choose Bob The Builder with 1 year of experience making sidewalks. That's not Elitism. I am looking for someone who has experience in building houses and who has shown their capability. There's nothing wrong with that.
You can still listen to feedback from average players. Just have a good starting point with changes to gather feedback in the first place. This comes from experienced players who have a vested interest in the game. Maybe the experienced player has some bad takes, okay, but these bad takes will be less frequent than someone who is just starting out.
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@hailxsatanxeveryxday said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359026#Comment_3359026
Insta 5%, not 10%, and it's very easy to hit. If it's a good survivor team (which is your biggest concern in these types of situations), they're going to hit it every time, and against bad survivors, 15% from PR or 5-15% from Pop is still a better deal.
Overcharge works really well in this build against bad survivors not because of the 5% skill check, but because of its synergy with CoB, because bad survivors will run off to heal or try to vault pallets on the other side of the map to distract you while the gen goes back to zero.
Good survivors know that they have to risk doing gens in the killer's face if any of them want to make it out alive, and sometimes it works.
Overcharge+CoB is decent for general regression builds (and Deadlock is good with those types of builds, too), but I wouldn't recommend it for this. (I'm a scumbag, and I have a lot of experience running this build.)
It's 10% for the missed skill check in total right? The extra 5% from OC and 5% from base or am I wrong?
I agree overcharge skill check isn't effective against good survivors. I think as long as the skill check occurs if they tap and they will miss it it synergizes well with CoB and it's own regression as they cant just run by and tap to stop the reg if they're under pressure.
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@hailxsatanxeveryxday said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3358176#Comment_3358176
I run that exact build sometimes, especially on M1 killers with no mobility since Deadlock is a must on those, but if you're just planning on camping a 3-gen from the start, skip Deadlock.
Instead, run either Pop or PR. And also consider replacing Overcharge with one of those perks, because if the 3-gen happens and all survivors are still alive, the gens are going to be getting tapped a lot before Overcharge/Call of Brine even reaches CoB's base 200% regression, and also you're going to have to take some risky chases, giving Pop and PR some value from hooking a survivor.
That way, when you kick a gen, it gets maybe 5-10 seconds at 200% regression, which is 2-5% on top of the initial 2%, then another 10% when you down a survivor due to Eruption, then another 15% when you hook, and then you kick the gen again, which gives you an average of 5-15% from Pop on top of the base 2%, plus another 5-10 seconds before the gen gets tapped at 2-5%.
So your total with PR and Pop instead of Deadlock and Overcharge is 38-54% for one round trip kicking, hooking, and chasing. If everyone's alive, you really, really need that, and Deadlock doesn't help you in a 3-gen.
And while Call of Brine and Overcharge are very strong if survivors leave gens alone, they won't be realistically doing that in a 3-gen situation, so in most cases, it's worse than just Call of Brine on its own for that strategy unless survivors are too stupid to hug gens while you take chase.
Camping a 3-gen from the start can be a solid strategy, but if survivors start get all the gens in the 3-gen more than halfway done, and everyone is still alive, that can be hard to come back from if they're competent.
Doesn't overcharge force the very difficult skill check making it a bad idea to just tap gens? If they miss that it's a insta 10% loss.
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@HugTheHag said:
I don't really care for the balance team's mmr. If anything, I wish for it to be varied on different levels.
If the game was balanced only at top level, it would be even more unbearable for casual players and beginners, which are the two demographics that DbD is struggling to retain, precisely because it's so discouraging starting out / playing too unfrequently to improve (which makes it a vicious cycle as people then aren't motivated to play when they know they aren't going to have a good experience).
LoL may work as they think is best, but according to many of my friends who are or were regular players (one being a private coach), the game's been so overthrown by the ambition of making it a competitive professional game that it's barely playable as a casual or outside of meta, both because of balance and backlash from other players (an issue which stems, like most things, from balance).
DbD being balanced completely around top 2% players would probably be the worse option commercially as much manier players would drop / not consider trying the game at all.
What's wrong with the balance in League?
I haven't played in years TBH, but I just took a look at the win rates (this is data collected by Riot that is provided through an API, BHvR take notes!!!!) and 130/162 champions have a 50 +/- 2% win rate. That's 80% of champions!
Since the stats were last released, 16/29 Killers have a kill rate of 60 +/- 2%. That's 55%.
In DbD a players kill rate is related to how sweaty they want to play. If they want to tunnel the first person they see, they're more likely to get a 4k. BHvR doesn't release the stats on hooks per kill so we don't know the extent of tunneling and camping going on. Based on the games I play as survivor, probably around 33% of them result in tunneling or camping.
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@Nazzzak said:
Their SBMM made me laugh today. I'm in low MMR hell atm as I just started survivor from scratch on the PS5. I got matched with 3 very new players in one game, which is fine and expected. They were missing skill checks new. The Huntress we got matched against though was hitting people from across the map lol then the very next game, I got matched with 3 experienced survivors who ran circles around the obvious baby killer. I don't even know anymore lmao
yeah I noticed that whatever side doesn't have the BP bonus has some pretty wild variation in games. as killer you can get baby survivors and 4 man bully squads.
as survivor you can get afk killers and sweaty nurses.
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@Phasmamain said:
MMR is basically non existent so this is irrelevant
Anyway most devs are too busy working to consistently play the game since game development is a full time job and not an easy one
Then how does Riot find these people?
Shouldn't the devs play the game at work and in their spare time because they enjoy it? Not saying they should be forced to devote their spare time to it, but they should be enthusiastic enough to actually play the game.
There are basic QoL features still missing after nearly 7 years.
Where is the search function for perks?
Why is pickup and interact the same keybind for killers? Can't they separate it?
Why are so many perks allowed to be so useless?
There are people who enjoy the game and are devs, maybe in other areas of software development. But it really seems like this game is lacking in people who understand how to make things fun and interesting. Gen regression meta isn't interesting anymore. Not after more than 6 years. It's time for a change.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3358636#Comment_3358636
It matters if there is a window there, which are way stronger then pallets cause they don't get used up
In the situations i descibed one is a 100% escape and the other a 100% down and vaulting a window isn't exactly an uncommon occurance
With pallets it's not really the same either, it is possible to hit between the endurance ending and them throwing the pallet but it's a tight window, there is also the point that you need to use it at the exact right time. Old dead hard you could pretty much use whenever you had a straight line. With the endurance one using it too early or too late means you could very well get hit
The distance you were invincible might be the same but the invincibility never was the problem with old dead hard. They could have completely removed that and it still would have been broken.
The problem was that it created distance between you and the killer on demand and new dead hard just doesn't do that
Not saying new dead hard is fine but it doesn't compare even slightly to the old one, even if it was a full second endurance
I think I see what you're saying now.
Under the old DH the distance gained by the survivor is roughly 3 extra seconds of travel time for the killer. This translates to 12m of total distance gained by the survivor assuming we are at a max range lunge.
The new DH provides only provides 2m. However, because of the endurance effect if the killer triggers it the result is significantly worse for them. They will move 6.6m/s for 1.8s for a total of 11.88m.
Assuming ranges of 6m from killer to survivor and 6m from survivor to pallet.
Before the best option for the killer was to take the lunge. There was no endurance so even if they missed they would at least make distance to the pallet or vault before the survivor could trigger the action. Now the best option is to not swing, if the killer triggers DH its basically a guaranteed transition to another tile unless there's a dead zone.
In fact, because of the Endurance effect there is now a safety buffer zone in place. A good survivor will use DH when they see the killer trigger the lunge animation and won't fall for a flick. So at 6m, a Killer's lunge would be easily detected and countered as there is around a 1 second window for the hit to connect. Plenty of time for a survivor to react and dodge. To have an ample chance at actually hitting the survivor, the killer would need to be within 4m. This cuts the reaction time to about .66 seconds which is still alot. but at least they're more likely to fall for a flick.
This still takes around 3 seconds to catch up. So really, it's just the same situation as before, right? What am I missing? The total distance moved by the survivor in both scenarios is the same I think.
I agree that the previous distance was created on demand by the old Dead Hard. But here, it just exists always. Getting the Endurance proc is terrible EDIT: for the killer.
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i agree
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I really like the idea of the survivors being able to restrict or enable the killers power and this opens up the decisions the survivors have available to them instead of the normal m1 chase and loop. The killer on the other hand can try to force survivors to enable his powers by putting them into compromising scenarios. Perhaps the rarer or more difficult to create scenario, the stronger the overall level of the power.
There are already 3 ranged killers in the game so maybe we can take these ideas and move away from giving this character so many guns.
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Yes. Trying out different builds is helpful for understanding certain effects and their likely effects on survivors.
Going for an Oblivious build with Plaything, Deathbound, Hysteria, and Retribution can show the power of Obliviousness. To maximize this power you will need to path correctly and minimize line of sight towards gens and survivors. You also have more freedom to direct survivors when starting a chase towards a dead zone or suboptimal area.
All of these are important traits generally when playing killer. An Oblivious build just further emphasizes these things allowing you to focus and train on them and be rewarded more than usual for doing so.
Basically, trying out different perk builds will allow you to focus on different aspects of gameplay. Oblivious is more strategic, but a chase build with Enduring, Bamboozle, Spirit Fury, and SBTFL can let you spend more of the trial focusing on mind games and predicting survivors behavior as opposed to playing every tile carefully.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3358234#Comment_3358234
The thing about chases is that total distance traveled doesn't matter that much
What matters is the distance between you and the killer.
Old dead hard increased that distance cause for a short time you were faster then the killer. So you could safely vault the window 100% of the time before the killer could reach you
New dead hard doesn't increase the distance between you and the killer. It may last longer but the killer will be right on your tail.
And seeing how you can't activate dead hard while vaulting all the killer would have to so was wait untill you vault or untill you are done dead harding
The only way out of that situation would be to get lucky and time your dead hard well the killer would pretty much always down you.
If there was no pallet near that window the endurance could last for 5 seconds and it still wouldn't matter
Old dead hard increased the distance between you and the killer, new one doesn't. So as far as windows are concerned you could never use the new one for distance
I agree that distance is the problem. But in both situations you described it's distance to a point. If there is no pallet does the speed increase matter? You can't go anywhere and the killer will eventually catch you.
Endurance gives the same effect as the speed boost. The survivor gains distance to a point. They can make the pallet.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3358067#Comment_3358067
I would say it's almost meaningless.
Obviously, if you're pushing 3K MMR or are under 500 MMR, that means something. However, for everyone in-between, I don't think it matters much. If I sit at 2300, I could be farming MMR off of people at 1300, you know? At a certain point, there's a preponderance of evidence saying that it DOES mean something but until that point, I'd put very little stock in it.
I see what your saying.
I would assume, and this is a very bold assumption given BHvRs track record, that the MMR system accounts for large discrepancies between teams and adjusts accordingly. So based on this assumption I would think that MMR is a fairly good proxy for individual skill and thus understanding of the game.
I just want to know the direction this game is headed. The meta shakeup was good, I was excited, I loved that they were finally making substantial changes. I thought these would be fairly consistent, bring the game to a better state, and introduce new ways to play the game.
Today I see that's not the case. There aren't consistent meta changes (at least things substantial that isn't just a perk here and there), some of the changes are questionable, and it appears that based on the process of these changes that BHvR doesn't understand what's going on. So who's making these changes or directing them and what can I expect? Knowing their MMR and thus understanding of the game will help me decide if I want to get back into this game seriously or just play for a few weeks every couple of months or so.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3358056#Comment_3358056
Yeah seen this dead hard thing floating around on these forums and i'm going to clarify that this is false
With dead hard for distance it never was the distance you couldn't be hit that mattered but the burst of speed
If you were heading to a window and knew the killer would hit you as you vault with old dead hard you could gain distance and clear the window no problem every time
With endurance dead hard you could never clear that window, as long as the killer hit you while you vaulted or waited out the dead hard you are going down. Regardless of the invinvibility distance being the same
Now 1 second was to generous and they rightfully changed that but in a lot of cases the for distance part wasen't nearly as much of a problem
The community is filled with people with the dunning kruger effect where they think they are experts and know so much about the game while they really don't
Now i'm not going to say that the devs are perfect and they do drop the ball often (ruin change for one) but in a lot of cases it really isn't that bad and most of their changes have solid reasoning
People often say that the devs are clueless about the game but the sad truth is that it's the community that is clueless
I have not seen any other game community that spreads so many falsehoods about the game they are playing
I don't understand the scenario you described and what the false thing about DH is.
It seems like in your scenario the problematic aspect is distance and speed has little to no effect on this problem.
Imagine the same scenario you described. Except instead of getting a burst of speed you would be invulnerable for the total distance traveled with the speed boost. This is still problematic right? The killer can't do anything so it's the same situation.
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matchmaking is all over the place. sometimes you get complete baby survivors. other times they're decent. other times they're a 4man swat team.
no idea what is going on with this matchmaking system anymore.
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Call of Brine, Overcharge, Eruption, Deadlock.
Get a 3 gen and have a 30 minute game.
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@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3357913#Comment_3357913
Yh .5 secs is a small time window. That's easy to miss. And it's on killer too, you can simply bait it out by waiting a second. I donit all the time as killer. And after a while you start being able to read when survs try to force it.
Your last point is pretty solid though. Survs have so many dead perks. And out of all the exhaustion perks, DH is arguably the best. When you hit it, you get much more distance than the other ones. I agree that like 75% of the player base run it because it's probably the best single perk available but I can't agree that it's broken. It has counterplay, requires good timing and survs just don't have many other good options.
I think the .5 seconds of invulnerability on DH is misleading in terms of its effect.
It extends chases significantly and killers always have to play around it until you know its there. Getting the endurance effect is a huge loss for the killer.
Consider the following scenario.
Killer is 6m away from survivor.
Survivor is 6m away from pallet.
Without DH, killer can lunge and hit the survivor very reliably.
With DH, killer can't lunge and hit the survivor. 6m is 1sec of travel time for the killer lunge. Well above normal reaction times. Survivor can simply DH the hit. Survivor can reach the pallet and extend the chase. This is FREE distance. There is no counterplay. A noob might mistake your flick for a lunge but a good player won't.
One second later, survivor is 2m away from the pallet. Killer is 5.4m away from survivor. Survivor makes the pallet.
Even further out the results are the same.
Killer is 6m away from survivor. Survivor is 10m away from pallet.
1 second later killer is 5.4m away from survivor. Survivor is 6m away from pallet. Same scenario as before, little less reaction time but still significantly above normal levels.
2 seconds later, killer is 4.8m away from survivor who is 2m away from pallet. Again, plenty of time to react, maybe the slowest players will miss this.
You can see that having DH does in fact provide distance and in some cases an extra loop or pallet or transition to another tile. You don't even have to press it for this to be the case.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3358063#Comment_3358063
But you literally just said that the script just looks for a swing. In the last clip we see the killer going for a swing and whiffing it, which would of triggered the script.
What this looks like to me is well timed DH's since OP didn't exactly wait as much as he thought. Most of the time the Meg just ran into him, waited, and then ate the DH right after. Could be wrong but I know for absolute certainty thats the case for at least 2 of them
Nope. I never said it "just looks" for a swing. That was Ben so ask Ben.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3358056#Comment_3358056
Uh....okay.
So, you're complaining about changes?
MMR is almost completely meaningless.
I'm complaining about the thought processes behind these changes. It can be a change I disagree with, but if I can understand the reasoning behind it and think it fair then that's fine. Maybe, if the person making the changes knows more about the game and can explain it to me, I might even change my mind!!!
Given the past record, it doesn't seem to be the case.
MMR is meaningless because of the cap. It still represents the overall skill level of the player. Right? That's what you were saying in the other thread? Or is it completely meaningless?
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3358051#Comment_3358051
So if you're aware of this
Explain the last clip
Its like the other 3 clips.
At 0.25x speed you can see the same process.
Killer starts swing.
Survivor DHs moment before swing connects.
In the different clips the only thing that differs is distance from killer to survivor. This is why the timings are different. None of the clips I saw played at 0.25x speed involved a preemptive dead hard. They all occurred after the swing.
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This is why they should release the full stats.
What is the avg number of hooks per kill?
How about number of hooks before the first kill?
If they did this we would probably see lots of tunneling. They don't want to release it because it would make them look bad.
Same reason they fixed colorblind mode after it made the news. They made up some story about how they've been working on it for "a while". Well I would think that such a feature would take around a 3 month sprint. So when did this feature release? 3 months after they announced it....... It didn't make the midchapter patch either. So clearly they hadn't been working on it for a while. It got moved to the top of the feature list so they didn't piss off anymore people and get even more publicity. Then and only then did it get done.
They don't care about the players, only optics.
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@Pulsar said:
Why would you want to know?
So I know how much trust I should afford them in their decisions.
The first version of DH in the PTB had a 1 second duration.
The goal of the rework was to address the problematic aspect of the distance gained by DH. This is straight from BHvR.
The 1 second duration is a reduction of distance of 5%...... Completely negligible in almost all cases. This passed by multiple devs, and was signed off and approved.
They wasted weeks of valuable feedback and testing time. What a poor decision. It did the absolute bare minimum to address the issue they wanted to solve.
Then the Eruption change happened. People complained and they rightfully removed the Incap effect but kept the % total regression.
How are they so far off the mark so consistently?
The flashlight video is a perfect example of them being unfamiliar with their own game. Project lead gets rekt, 1 month later they complete gut flashlight blind speed. It's gone. Wow. If only they noticed this months or years before by some method of observation like playing their own game.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3358034#Comment_3358034
It did tho, considering DH doesn't start immediately. Also they were well into the animation when the hit connected.
none of the clips showed the dh starting before the animation started.
the dh starts the moment you press it. its the killer can swing, dh starts immediately after, be hit instantly, and have no DH animation.
that's not what happened here tho. the killer started the swing, right before the swing the animation starts. this is because the killer had to lunge for the hit so the animation had time to play.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3358002#Comment_3358002
Can already tell its not a script from the first clip considering you can see them starting the DH before you even swung
And watching the last clip, she would of used DH from the whiff
No one is crazy, just you trying to justify a loss. Just take it and move on to the next. No biggie
they didn't start the dh before the swing. the dh after the swing started and before it connected. you can slow youtube clips down to 0.25x.
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@Seanzu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3358002#Comment_3358002
lmao, killers saw one video about auto dh and now the entire killer community is using it as an excuse, she can hold her dh as long as you hold your swing, latency is also a thing.
lmao, did you even watch the video?
too long for you to watch or what?
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typically when I've seen what I suspect to be a DH script the DH animation doesn't even play. this is because the killer swing is instant at point blank, there is no lunge forward like we've seen in these clips.
the killer does a point blank swing (after waiting it out for a few seconds, doing a few feints, etc...) and because the swing is instant, the dh is instant.
so the survivor immediately turns white and there is NO lunge animation. nailing this once is like winning the powerball. nailing this several times and of course its going to be a dh script. there is simply no way.
watching these clips, this 100% looks like dh scripting.
slow the videos down to 0.25x speed. the dh occurs RIGHT before the hit connects. similar to the situation above.
thanks for this. just something else i need to keep on the lookout for.
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@HoodedWildKard said:
Dead hard is used a LOT. But it doesn't carry a game as hard as eruption can.
Survs have a lot of dead perks. And dead hard is probably one of the bestbsingle perks in the game. But it isn't broken, it's hard to trigger and can easily be baited out.
Hard to trigger? Press E is hard to trigger? What?
Also, its a perk that can still be used for distance and to extend a chase. If you're invulnerable for 2m you are still gaining distance to a point. The killer can't do anything.
Instead of using it early like it was before, just wait .5 seconds. In .5 seconds the survivor will cover the distance lost from the "rework".
Also, there are too many dead perks in the game in general.
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If only there was a team of people capable of making changes to the game that could prevent this.
Maybe such a change could be that if the killer hasn't hit anyone for 10 minutes straight they lose.
Another change could be that if a survivor hasn't made measurable progress (cleansed a totem, healed someone, did 25% gen progression, chase, etc...) that survivor loses.
That way we wouldn't have to rely on these player reports that require video evidence.
Now if only we can find such a group of people.........
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3357449#Comment_3357449
Maybe you haven't been around as long, but someone suggests splitting the game into two modes 'casual' and 'competitive' on roughly a monthly basis, and it never starts being a good idea.
No killers would choose to play against SWF if they had the option. No survivors would choose to play solo only mode if they had the choice (because they'd only get killers who are afraid of SWF). Your suggested take (which is a little different from the usual suggestion I have to admit) at face value, would see massive survivor queues in 'casual' with virtually no killers, and massive killer queues in 'competitive' with virtually no survivors.
Typically, a 'competitive' mode comes with several restrictions. These would likely include add on and item restrictions, maybe a perk cost system, definitely no offerings, and what would be the reward for this? A ranking score?
Plus, a typical 'competitive' mode would likely be populated only with SWFs, after all they're the survivors who play competitively. You definitely couldn't exclude SWF from competitive mode, because just as they did before SWF was introduced players would simply lobby hop until they ended up together and undermine the system. You simply couldn't design a competitive mode to be solo-only if there was any incentive for survivors to succeed in that mode, players will take any advantage they can get.
Matchmaking would be a huge point of contention for competitive mode, because the loose matchmaking we have right now is only suitable for a casual game. It's flat out impossible to design a tight MMR system for this game because the win condition is so undefined and difficult to tie to player skill.
Besides, what would the point of equalising solo and SWF via information buffs like this be, if solo and SWF were separated into two different modes anyway?
The whole point of these buffs is to close the gap between solo and SWF, and when that's done, there will be no need for your two game modes.
I agree.
I shouldn't have used competitive mode as the other mode. I understand the community doesn't view the competitive aspect of this game the same way I do. I should have called it immersive mode. When I said competitive I meant that from the perspective of the solo survivor player. An individual will have to be consistently technically and strategically better to see success in solo queue than they would in a SWF that has multiple other people to cover for and know of any mistakes.
The UI changes take away a lot of the chaos and uncertainty that are in Solo Q. Knowing that someone is working on a gen that is 80%, watching them get into a chase, and having seen that person 20 seconds ago can give you a good idea of where the gen is and the priority of completing it. Much of the atmosphere of the game they've been creating over the last few years will be lost.
The UI changes just make each decision in the game more of a routine optimization problem than before. With more information, there is less uncertainty, and each decision becomes more rote. The player knows what happening ahead of time and can plan and react accordingly.
The point I am trying to make is that the actual competitive aspect of the game doesn't come from being in a SWF and planning out perks ahead of time and communicating with teammates. It bypasses the very design of the game. If the community wants to call it "competitive" to bypass the design of the game, okay fine, but I disagree.
To me, it would be more interesting to see a tournament without these things. A large pool of people and each match would consist of four random solo survivors who are anonymous in the game to prevent their teammates from knowing their preferred strategies. Each person would be competing against everyone else in the pool for the highest score. The score would be based on performance across rounds like hooks, kills, saves, gen progress, chase time, etc... Performing well with unconventional builds and strategies would grant more points than gen regression nurse or DH/COH survivor.
Anyway, this seems to be more of a problem with the community in general. It's not competitive to bypass the very design of the game.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3357120#Comment_3357120
Which is why survivor is getting these sort of buffs.... what's you're point exactly?
@Basement_Bubba420 said:
I would agree your changes OP if they added a separate mode.
A casual mode and a "competitive" mode would be good for the game I think.
Casual mode you get the UI and and the ability to see perks.
Competitive mode is the true DbD experience with Solo Q only and none of the new HUD stuff.
OFC this means double the work for BHVR so we are unlikely to see it happen.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3356788#Comment_3356788
Who are you going to play against?
All the easy opponents will be on casual. You'll be waiting hours for a lobby on competitive.
the difficulty in this game comes from either being a solo a survivor or as a killer facing a swf.
the problem with the game balance is the swf.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3356517#Comment_3356517
Your casual mode would become competitive mode, and nobody would play competitive mode.
i would play competitive mode.
casual mode is to have fun. not win games. its not supposed to be balanced.
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if i see a boil over build you betcha im slugging and camping. if i can slug the 4 man saboteur, boil over, RPD/hook offering, flip flop, unbreakable, exponential and bleed them all out for 5 minutes im doing it.
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I would agree your changes OP if they added a separate mode.
A casual mode and a "competitive" mode would be good for the game I think.
Casual mode you get the UI and and the ability to see perks.
Competitive mode is the true DbD experience with Solo Q only and none of the new HUD stuff.
OFC this means double the work for BHVR so we are unlikely to see it happen.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3356426#Comment_3356426
Some Killers are that bad that yes, against some teams, there's truly nothing you can do.
However, that is a RARITY. You do not find matches like that very often. If you are a good Killer player, you can win the vast majority of your matches based simply off of perks and strategies. 99% of teams will not be able to effectively counter that.
I agree that a good killer player can demolish most survivors. I'd say that the DbD food chain is this
Solo < Killer < SWF
Put a good killer against 4 good solo survivors (i.e. people who actively avoid gens in progress in chase, can loop correctly, can minimize the effectiveness of the killers power) and it's a game of inches where one mistake by the killer can cost them the game or one mistake by a survivor can quickly lead to a cascading effect . This is where DbD is at its best.
Put a good killer against 4 good SWFs and the game changes entirely. Some Killers like Trapper have their power almost entirely negated. This isn't a gradual shift in balance, its immediate huge shift in the direction of survivors. Survs will always know what gens are being worked on, discover killer perks without actually seeing them, know where the killer is, know when someone is going to go down, etc...
Certainly, some things can be done to alleviate this imbalance. If we had more stats to figure things out BHvR could crowdsource the thought process. Leaving things to be done by themselves isn't producing much change. The meta shakeup was the best thing we've seen in a long time. Unfortunately it didn't do too much in the end but it was great they were actually moving the game forward. It is time to do it again, this time they can involve the community more.
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3356423#Comment_3356423
My first point was in response to someone stating that Otz and TruTalent could face enough people to comprise a sufficient sample size. Otz and Truetalent are really not representative of all Killers and two streamers really cannot face enough people for a sample size sufficient for a game as large as DbD.
I also stated all skill levels should receive balancing considerations. Otz and other streamers do not encompass all Killer players. The survivors they face do not comprise all skill levels.
I don't understand why Otz and streamers not being a large enough sample to represent all Killers is hard for you to understand and I don't understand why you don't realize that the survivors past the skill cap do not represent all survivors if the game is trying to balance for all levels as the devs stated they do.
I also said I'm not interested in continuing the conversation as I don't care enough to want to repeat myself to people who can't see that they have no actual data when they literally have no data. I don't know why you don't understand that streamers don't represent 100% of the Killer base, why 35% roughly of survivors don't represent 100% of survivors, why saying that a soft cap exists doesn't mean that a group that's between 5% of the player base (rough guess on streamers) and 35% of the player base (rough guess on the survivors past the soft cap) represents 100% of the player base or that if somebody says they're not interested in continuing a discussion they're not interested in continuing the discussion but I'm not interested in repeating myself over and over. Once again, please don't ping me about this. It's not productive and I have no interest in discussing that issue with you. Learn to let things go please. This is an entirely different thread about a different topic.
What sample size would you consider sufficient?
Surely, 4000 people among 500 games between the two of them - likely just in the last month - would be enough? Polling data for political elections are far less than 1%. For instance, Pew surveys 1,500 out of an adult population of 220 million. That's 0.00068% of the population.
DBD has sold 3 million copies. 4,000 is .013%. That's almost a 200x larger representative sample size.
I keep seeing you say this sample size thing yet it doesn't make sense. The population is absolutely large enough. If you have an issue with this population size, you have an issue with most polling data and most general surveys done by research institutions. It just doesn't make any sense. At all. The only reasonable issue I think you raise is representation which I think is a minor issue at most.
The difference in avg. kill rates between the top 5% MMR and everyone else is ~2%. So, is this a large difference? What would you expect to see?
There is more information to be gathered about the overall balance of the game from the top 50% then the bottom 50%. In absolute terms, it is more likely that the top 50% have passed the threshold of skill and knowledge to get the majority of use out of their perks and strategies than the bottom 50%.
Anyway, I still think the bottom 30% in terms of skill of any game should be of minimal consideration. They're still learning the game or just unwilling to perform functionally in it. So really we have a sample consisting of around the top 50% of the population worth observing
Also, this isn't an "entirely different" thread. This is a thread about stats. The conversation in the previous thread was about stats. Your post was about stats. My response was about stats.
Its about stats. I can talk about it if you want to post in here and talk about stats. If you don't want to talk about it, don't post in a thread about stats for goodness sake.
The final question I have is, generally speaking what percentage of any given population do you think needs to be surveyed to get accurate results? Is this the same or different as DbD?