clownkrieger
clownkrieger
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Honestly havent thought a lot about that. Didnt do open designs during beta and all my outpost had entry/exit at the "front"-side (pretty close to harvey spawn most of the time as well).
While in the game-logic it would probably make sense to only be able to extract from where you enter (thats where your fancy hover bike is parked after all), i cant see it making a lot of difference in gameplay if it would be changed to that - besides annoying people if the builder decides to make the entry to an outpost on a large plot at the back side, and raiders have to run back and forth...
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@drsoontm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3354243#Comment_3354243
It wasn't too obvious indeed.
But the way I see it, 10 days, with efforts, is still a limitation.
A way to "copy" it, make it a template, something so the work doesn't go to waste ... would be great.
I'm sure I'm not the only one that doesn't like this and there were others propositions.
Yea there was a big discussion on steam forums and even here some iirc, you are not alone with that for sure :)
I personally am ok with those limitations and see their point, but i will play this game mainly to build and want to build a lot anyways, so yea...
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There was the option to "refill" (and level) outposts if certain conditions are given, but the game didnt really tell you and showed you where (it was pretty hidden in the UI as well). So you can keep an outpost active for around minimum 10 days total if you manage and can afford to level it 10 times.
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@chezpizza said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3353296#Comment_3353296
I think I tried that and it gave me the path is blocked unless it was a bug.
Havent tried that myself, but you can use 2nd wave holo/lava blocks (they act like solid baserock in first wave) to make a path that vanishes/turns into lava when the genemat is taken, so that harvey has to take an alternative path to get out again (which still has to exist). At least that was my understanding of the false floor bases, just saw short clips of that on yt though.
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@CotePathos said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3350962#Comment_3350962
I'll bite the bait
Your belief that something that will kill speedrunners will kill newbies who backstep 2 squares at the first sign of danger shows you haven't even tried thinking of solutions to this problem. an arrow trap placed blocks behind a corner aiming down a tight hallway will do nothing to a cautious player, but will force a speedster to turn around, allowing traps you put in front to do the job. Things that kill one playstyle are often bad at killing another.
it's also not OK for raiders to block bases IMO, and I hope BHVR denies them the ability to do so.
To answer your question, I don't know, but I hope not.
First thanks for not resorting to blatant personal attacks :) (well besides presuming i havent thought about this lol)
I did, and i had some success in catching (some) speedrunners with exactly that tactic (as mentioned in another thread), and you are right that its not very intrusive to slow and careful players. An arc shield user will just press a button in that situation and keep moving though. Not gonna go into details how to counter that and the consequences that would have again, cause this whole discussion is besides the point - this is not a discussion thread but a question...
I really think blocking players should be a thing though (cause this thread alone showed how many toxic people will be around, however that will reflect into the game), and if raiders are allowed to block builders, the opposite should be possible as well - well it seems to be, but i dont really saw how/did it when playing, so thats the reason for the question at hand. I rememeber you could open the steam-profiles from raiders from the replays though, so it might have been somewhere there.
Will wait till game goes life and have a look again, and since no1 can actually deliver an answer and i dont want to explain myself/discuss this topic/get insulted anymore, im just gonna close this now.
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All of it actually xD
While i really enjoyed the atmosphere and the overall feeling, the background and the lore was pretty vague to me (would have helped if i would have been able to rewatch the intro sequence probably).
I think the the question what we (the custodians) are and why we "fight" against each other would be a good entry point (so 4+7?), can outline the general storyline/background at the edges of that.
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@Maker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3350814#Comment_3350814
Flat earthers, Antivax, and Trump supporters aren't alone in their beliefs either, that doesn't put them on an equal level with others, and it definitely doesn't make them right. Just say you want the ability to block people who are good at the game from obliterating your bases. Trying to block people isn't the way. Asking BHVR to provide better solutions to punish speed runners is a much more reasonable request.
Oh, a new one! Well not even gonna bother with debunking this argumentative harakiri lol (its basically the same as the other two tried to pull anyways) , but you kindly ignored the passages where i mention the conditions under which - and why - i would start doing what i ask for (which i did at several other places in this forum already as well btw).
Really, if asking a harmless question already provokes this reaktions, i see a great future for this game and its community!
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@Rookie1978 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3350962#Comment_3350962
You can still slow down raiders in normal maps, and if your normal map is getting blasted through by a good raider and you don't wanna build around that, why is that even a problem? What's the point of you blocking people who are good at the game finishing your base quickly? Saying that instead of just building differently is crazy. It isn't a problem, it is literally your fault for not building better. I really, genuinely hope people with your reasoning and critical thinking skills don't become a permanent part of this community. As much as I want this game to grow, please stay away from it on release.
I am not going to fence the same strawman a third time, and you can keep your ad hominems for yourself... i see that you cant hold up to an argument, so why bother.
I just hope people like you dont bring the mods to close this thread before i finally got an answer to my question :)
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So if you do that and make harvey optional, you would have to mark maps that have no harvey in the regular gamemode so people know what they are getting into (you probably need to make own categories for that).
I dont even want to argue against that being difficult to realize ingame, or that that would "split" the community or whatever - I simply cant see that a lot of people would pick non-harvey maps in regular mode and really play them then, cause the chances that you would get into something that is unsolvable or needs an immense amount of time are high.
Why would people forgo/hinder their own progress regarding materials and competitive points? If you say "fun" - yea, thats exactly what social is for, and will be used for... you would end with maps that wont be able to sustain themselves anyways, so you could have made them directly in social. I honestly cant see the point.
Also re "exploits": besides people finding ways to really break the path while still being able to publish the outpost (which can be reported if it happens), i dont see any space for "real" exploits with harvey. Cheese and cheap tactics, yea, but there are enough raiders that still say nothing is unbeatable, and they are probably right. In my opinion, yea, the "explosive body rain"- and "false floor"-outposts are kinda "exploity", but others would disagree with good reasons again as well. Removing harvey would open up a whole new can of worms and be the reason people would actually avoid these maps.
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Oh, a poll...
First of, there is no "other"-option. Then, the only option that aligns with your proposition - that you got a lot of comments that wouldnt think harvey would be a detriment to "creativity" - even states that there is a limitation, but that it doesnt matter in the context of the necessity of harvey (which is basically what nearly everyone was telling you already and no1 ever denied, as you state in your proposition).
What is your intention behind this "poll", what is your goal? It seems to me that you are dancing around a strawman...
- You can be as creative as you want in this game, but have to live with the restriction that it can be only published on social
- For the regular gamemode, there needs to be something that guarantees that the map is beatable. I wont repeat all the arguments here why "creator has to finish it" is an idea that wont work out to guarantee that and/or would be bad for the game and its loop, they have been present thoughout the discussion we had here in the last days*.
So instead of making that poll that leads nowhere and has like no informational value, why dont you present us with a solution for the problem mentioned in my 2nd bulletpoint?
Give us a system, without harvey, in which you can guarantee that the map is beatable, that cant be circumvented by the creator, and that wouldnt turn the gameplayloop into a chore.
(*re: gameplayloop would be a chore: it doesnt matter if its for the builder who has to run his own creation over and over or for the raider that has to search a gigantic outpost for that one baserock block that is the holocube that masks the secret entrance, both would be extremely unfun for the person involved and would jeopardize the games success ("even more" i am tempted to say))
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@Lastpenfighter said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3350962#Comment_3350962
I didn't belittle you at any point in my post. Its unfortunate you are taking discourse about a video game so personally. There is nothing I can do about how you take my words so I suppose that is what it is.
To address the topic at hand, "Normal" bases are most likely going to be easier to blast through simply because of the nature of the game's balance. It happens and from a builder's perspective (which is my main role) it doesn't effect you at all. My normal bases got ran a LOT by my experienced players but it was all good because almost all of them left me accolades so I got materials and such anyway and was able to prestige.
THAT is the difference between blocking an annoying base and a raider. An annoying base disrupts that player's ability to farm gen mats, whereas being "rushed" by raiders in a speed running mood doesn't really have a demonstrable effect on a builder. Which brings us to the question you posited. This discussion is taking place because blocking raiders doesn't need to be a thing.
Well yea, perception is subjective, you were the one insinuating that its a knowledge issue that leads to "ineffectiveness" and needs to be fixed by "learning"... but whatever.
"Allmost all of them" left accolades? See, there is one of the problems. Also fyi: you dont get materials from accolades.
So speedrunners that cant even be arsed to give me accolades "disrupt" my ability to prestige a base and farm gen mats, cause they wont even rip in a noob base.
Lets just agree to disagree here.
Speedrunning is a problem in this game that will lead to a lot of bad experiences for a lot of people.
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@MiniWall said:
I would prefer something along the line of a minimum raid attempt count before an outpost get depleted.
That would ensure a minimum amount of fairness.
If your outpost got depleted in that minimum amount of attempt, then it means your map did not get enough kill (deadly) or accolade(fun).
While i like that idea, there needs to be some decay over time, otherwise ugly low-effort concrete stuff, that people might not even attempt after seeing the preview pic, will clog up the pool of active bases forever.
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@Lastpenfighter said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3350782#Comment_3350782
You aren't wrong at all here. As much as many don't wish to admit it, if speed runners are a problem for a builder, it's that builder's fault.
To Clownkrieger and others on this board who are blocking people for being speed runners, I respectfully disagree with that being justified behavior. The raiders who can blast through a map aren't exploiting anything unfairly or being toxic. It just means you built an ineffective base. And no, you don't have to build a final kill room with trap spam like so many content creators did. There are many ways to slow down speed runners, you just need to learn them. :)
Sigh.
Its NOT the issue that i wouldnt know how to do that (even without "killboxes" or piston stuff). Its the issue that stuff like that has - in my opinion - no place in, say for example a "normal" rated base that is tailored for a newbie experience. And that still would be "plagued" by speedrunners (and was in beta).
Maybe get down from the high horse and dont assume "skill issues" everytime someone mentions something that doesnt fit in your view of things?
Question: Its ok if raiders block bases of builders that they didnt like (be that just low effort, trollbase or toxic base) to not get the bases of that builder again? Why exactly is the opposite not ok?
Still no answer to my question btw, but thx for belitteling me :)
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@Redbeard_Steel said:
Unless I'm remembering incorrectly or it was bugged every time I did it, when you run your own base you have infinite respawns, right from where you died. You didn't have to restart at the entrance, you didn't have to actually try, you could even kamikaze into every trap, traps STAY broken this whole run, and respawn was almost instantaneous, so the argument against it of "I'm a bad raider" is at best a joke.
You could be the worst raider in existence and still be able to get through your own base 3 times faster than any speedrunner who died once, unless it's a spam base. You even have the added knowledge of knowing the correct path and where the traps are ahead of time.
It'd be easy to avoid redoing it every time you want to change a single thing too, set a hard limit for when it needs redone (for instance, 450 additional blocks used from last completed run).
Say your base has 1,500 blocks, you use 1,400. Now you run the base, and it marks that you completed it at "1,400 blocks used". Now the only time you'd HAVE to rerun it (you could do it sooner to increase to 1,500 in this instance, if you wanted to increase the time for when you need to rerun later) is after you've added more than 450 blocks to your current usage. So you prestige it to 1,675, you wouldn't need to rerun it. Prestige it a second time to 1,850, if you use the max 1,850 then you have to rerun it when you finish in order to activate it. If you use all 1,850 blocks, you don't have to worry about rerunning it for 3 more prestiges (as even when it increases in extra capacity, it only goes up to 200 extra at 4/5, until prestige 6, you're still fine unless you hit 2,300+), and that's IF you use all the capacity available. If you've added 450 points worth of traps (6 flamers with a couple modded, 7 guards with all armor modded, 10 impaler traps with any mods, 20 corrosive blocks with all mods, etc) that is quite a big change. On the flip side, you could have added 449 base building blocks for new dead end paths, a TON of mods to all existing traps, or a combination of all these things.
This is a point where your base has drastically changed in difficulty, so having to run it still seems incredibly easy with infinite lives, perma-destroyed traps, and on-death spawn (not to mention you have access to all gear as well, so you're not worse off than a raider). The only way this would be difficult at that point is if you've made a map that's so spam happy that even with all your bonuses, it still takes 20 minutes to complete. If it's THAT hard to do with infinite lives and everything else you get, why would ANYONE want to run it when they have none of those bonuses?
I dont think anyone of the "maker has to complete his map"-fraction would be satisfied if you were allowed to do that in the friggin testing mode that the build mode offers...
But ok, lets assume we would have to rerun it in regular mode as any raider, but then only if you ad more than 450 blocks. I could just leave an entrance directly to the genemat, enter through that, leave through that -> completed, upload it and then add a single block to close that entrance...
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@Rookie1978 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3348971#Comment_3348971
So you want to block raiders for getting through your base quickly? AKA just playing raider? What the hell are you on about?
If people can speedrun your base, it's BADLY DESIGNED. You need to be a better builder and learn how to deal with these types of raiders instead of caring about your 'statistics' this much. If you aren't interested in building things to slow down raiders, don't cry when they get through your outpost quickly. This is an indirect PVP game and you should treat it like one.
If you make a shoddy base design, you will get good raiders that can run through it regardless of how many you block. Blocking people for getting through your outpost quickly is the wimpiest thing I've ever seen suggested by a MYM player and we aren't even on release day yet.
You are allowed to your opinion, as i am allowed to mine... i had a lot of discussions here (and elsewhere) already though to know that i am not alone with mine (as i know you are not alone with yours). Would be nice if youd respect that as well :)
So FYI: The ease of speedrunning cause of certain game mechanics (and lack of them as well), the opness of arc shield, and people building killboxes, piston-hallways, and other layouts that are considered "unfun" by a lot as consequence of all of that, is pretty present in current discussions.
I simply asked a question (and even gave background that you ignored). You must not like that and the implications, but if you cant answer it, better be a bit more careful with your reaction to it.
Have a nice day.
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@Entchenklein said:
To my knowledge you can already refill your outpost so if you dont reach the next prestiege level you can just pay some scrap to refill it and try again you dont even lose extra capacity or prestiege level you only have to pay scrap
Yea i saw something about that in the interface but didnt really understand it (...), and all my outposts got enough points to actualy prestige so i never had to use it.
So its like just a refill of the genemat that you pay for without gaining prestigelevel and extra capacity? That opens up a whole lot of new questions and problems then though...
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"I'll try and put a lot of thought into this"
Yes you did! Great feedback, and i agree with evertyhing actually.
Want to emphasize the follow your builder and sprayer emotes idea, that would be super cool. Also it should really be made easier for raiders to find bases that support their playstyle.
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I agree with nearly all of that but didnt really understandd your alternative prestige suggestion... can you explain a bit more?
"Allow Players to buy as many Burial Site slots as they want, but only allow 3-5 sites to be Active at any given time."
This is already the case (you can have up to 200 burial sites but only 5 active at a time)
"In this new system Prestige costs could be increased, but the site could be built up over time. OR the system could lose x% prestige progress (or even have it reset to 0%) every day/couple-days/week (or whatever the prestige-cycle is chosen to be). This will allow players that don't have amazing builds to still experience the prestige mechanics (slowly) with their better builds."
This is what i dont get.
Re - Site types:
The different types represent the genemat raiders get from escaping with the objective and builders from the slow "decay" of the base, and that levels the respective advisor. I agree that the whole level-here-and-level-there-system is super confusing and obtuse and could use a cleanup, also i like the idea that the different types would have an impact on the burial site (whatever that would be).
Re -Activating a site:
As a dedicated builder (that sucks at raiding xD) i strongly disagree with a builder having to complete his own site to activate it. Wont go in detail here but just link a steam-discussion where the OP and the following discussion explains pretty good (if a bit condescending) why: https://steamcommunity.com/app/1194810/discussions/0/3762230582709008899/
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@Redbeard_Steel said:
I like the idea of doors, especially doggy doors, but how do you ensure people don't just hardlock the doors at that point so that raiders can't progress? Switches/levers can be put anywhere, so putting them behind the locked door would be easy and as long as Harvester can get through, it wouldn't deny the build.
I suppose that's true of doors in general though, if the harvester can't pass them, it won't let you continue, but if they don't hinder a harvester, then it's easily abused.
I suppose as long as the doors were set to open/lock before/after genmat is grabbed, it would be a great way to force raiders into new pathways and avoid the harvester issue too though.
Thats why i was thinking of a door you can open only from one side, without doggy door or catflap or what its called - you would still need a path that harvey can pass as well to reach the backside of the door (which would lead through a part of the outpost you have to fight through as raider first). But yea, that would only open up a shorter exit if he state of the door wouldnt persist through the reset of an outpost after a rip.
I see the problem you mention, that would need some fancy logic as well to prevent, should be possible as well though i guess? I know nothing about programming such stuff though, so *shrug*
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I was just thinking about that as well.
We dont even need doors with keys or switches, and there needs not to be a catflap, it would be enough if the door could only be opened from one side - this way the builders amongst us that want to build some more complex levels (and dont necessarily care for kills/to annoy people) could give raiders the opportunity to open up a shortcut to skip a section of the outpost if they already beat it and then die in the next (besides doors would be a nice addition to decorate outposts anyways).
Edit: to explain that a bit more, i had like "segmented" outposts in the beta and people that were set on beating them, and always felt a bit bad when they had to redo (or just rush through) sections they did already beat... yea im a nice builder lol.
Edit2: Just realized that that the state of the door would have to persist somehow through the reset of base after rip... not practicable probably
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@Redbeard_Steel said:
(Just assuming here) I would think that if you block certain builders, it also blocks them from going to your bases as well. So it's not a direct "I'm blocking a raider" but more "I'm blocking this person as a whole".
I could be totally off too though, just don't see a reason to block a raider since they can't complete a base more than once (without joining someone's raid who hasn't done your base yet).
They could get my other/new bases though.
I am thinking about this cause i (probably) dont want to systematically buld up all my ouposts against the speedrunners that dont or barely enagage with traps/guards at all, and they would be bad for my statistics :D
If i dont get good tools against that, and dont want to build piston-hallways to slow them down and catch them, my bases will become flodded with them (remember there is that buff that gives you "intelligence" about outposts? think about that for a moment...).
Also cheaters might become an issue at some point.
Easiest solution to not have to bother with that as a builder is to just block people that do it when i see it in the replays...
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@Redbeard_Steel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3348863#Comment_3348863
I was afraid of that being the case honestly. While I enjoy the game, and I'm willing to pay the full price, I know my friends I played with aren't willing to. I'm sure there will be more content at launch, but this is a pretty niche type of game.
I do hope they give us more info on what to look forward to soon though, there's just so much potential I'd love to get even minor hints.
I dont think it will be 60$. I expect low(er) price and then additional monetization with cosmetics, but thats an assumption as well ofc.
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While i like the idea in general, the modifiers would have to be super carefully chosen and balanced, and (at least some of them) should come with a downside for raiders as well when fullfilled probably (which would make the whole thing really interesting imo).
With the stuff you suggested you make the outpost basically easier for raiders, so pass on potential kills, to get more income per kills. Only few would really bother with that then, and things like "traps trigger 30% slower" would make speedrunning even easier (so should for example come with the downside "arc barrier not allowed" for raiders).
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@Viktoriusiii said:
I guess you misunderstood me.
The negative feedback should be OPTIONAL if you quit, not automaticially as soon as you quit.
Kind of like "did you have fun or do you never want to see this map again?"
If the system works as intended and i understand it right leaving it without accolades and abandoning it should actually work like a "downvote" already anyways.
And yea, the skillgap between players is high and what is near an exploit for some might be ingenius in the eyes of others. Still, if the system works the community as a whole has influence on what maps can be prestiged and stay in the pool.
I agree with you though that many players will still vote "fun" and "brutal", even some of those that are not able to complete. After all they were the ones that selected an outpost from the "brutal" category... Only the fewest seemed to be really pissed and left my harder outposts uncompleted without accolades (and actually most of those have been tryhard speedrunners that had not really the skill for that).
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Since im developing into the forum-clown that posts in near every thread that pops up i thought i might as well introduce myself xD
I am a middle aged dude in early retirement (medical reasons) that games his whole life already. I played shooters mostly in my tweens (back then Return to castle wolfenstein and RTCW: Enemy territority), in the last years actually mainly ARPGs (path of exile) with survival/building/management games strewn in between leagues (shooters dont really work out for me anymore cause age and meds).
I LOVE building stuff, and the fantastic thing in MyM is that it actually has a use besides being a static base where you drop your resources/craft your gear like in most survival titles - others play my stuff and deliver me the replays that i really enjoy watching (after all i like shooter gameplay still).
I really had a blast in open beta and am suffering from heavy withdrawal rn, cant bring myself to play anything else really. So yea, i think about MyM and camp the forums lol.
Btw: People call me Clown and i am fine with that :)
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In the steamforums is a discussion regarding this, and someone suggested to let building blocks just cost capacity if they have a LOS to the harvester path, a guards path, or a trap. That would be a pretty smart solution imo, cause just the "functional hull" would have to be paid for and all the rest would be purely cosmetic.
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@Stryx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3347401#Comment_3347401
it's not a bad strategy I've faced it several times, although at the end, with the sound, you can know if its arrows, spikes, and if you only put arrows in front and spikes behind they can still run and deflect and if you put arrows in both you can destroy the back one while running through the corner and then deflect the one in front, yes I've faced this sometimes, and if not yep, shield to cover both sides if the mistake, the shield needs no nerf, but counter, the tool is great, you can only carry 2, so must be usefull , if not its pointless... but should not work through everything or having something to make it harder.
Honestly making ragequit for me it's something to be proud, if I make those people ragequit I don't mind no accolade, but I do still enjoy it, and you may dislike it, but when people make speedrun through yours, you know there's still something to improve, when its by shield , just there's lack of something to counter it.
I must say I didn't get the point of accolades or the rank in the game yet(and still I don't tbh what are they worth for), so it took me a bit to be given them more consistently to whoever deserves them because even if for me are not I did notice some people want them.
Yea i dont really think that the shield is the problem, and i dont think there should be stuff thats able to penetrate it. Its just problematic in conjunction with most traps being so slow that you cant get fast moving targets with them - You can set up "semi-spammy" passages that can catch those if they mess up, but ye, when they have the shield this is pointless or would have to be super spammy or continuously and thats not really fun for others then imo.
So rather give me more tools to trigger traps from outside of their own trigger area, and let me figure out the timing to hit fast moving raiders with them (already suggested light barriers and pressure plates in feedback). That would make setting up traps way more varied and interesting and add more difficulty to speedrunning. Imagine you can trigger that bomb trap ahead of the raider... :D
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Good idea. Tbh i havent really looked at the social raid thingy so dont really know what is there already, but there definetly should at least be options that let you sort or filter the list for the different accolades and amount of them. Also date of publishing, prestige level and the like.
You definetly are right that there needs to be a system to find new entries, or it would be saturated with old stuff at some point. Could be like a "Suggest me an oupost"-function, where you can set parameters like the accolade most given to the outpost and a timespan it was published in, and it generates a list for you maybe? Daily rotation of accolades would be saturated at some point as well.
Also a favourite outpost system maybe? Or a "social rating" that lets you find entries others favourited/really liked?
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@Stryx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3347247#Comment_3347247
considering you play only brutal you get around 3/4 of the bar, so in general you will be making a champion outpost out of 7 maps, 3 are champion , you get 3750 exp of 1 with brutal map and then 1125*5 which is 5625 which we could assume is 1 bar in proportion lets say, you need to get 3 to reach the next level of chimera(I don't know if this would change in higher levels since in the first was only 2), so far is the fastest way to get the red thing, I don't think the problem is the amount you get, since most players don't do the maps running throughtout it I just think should be a better incentive to play it slower as said, some traps that punish if you try to ignore others, or ones that go through the barrier to prevent the use shield for everything, I don't think the barrier is bad as some said, and more even for new players, imagine starting and getting grabbed by 3 hooks at same time, in small place while running through it would not even get you.
sadly I got notified about this great game the 10th so I couldn't play all the time I'd have like(hope they make pre-purchase and open it some days before I've to try ok?) but still I got that lv, I could be getting 2 lv per hour at the end of the game time when I did got how it works and all and taking my time to check my outpost and more, at the end it was around 1-3mins to accomplish one depending of many things, and actually if giving up on the maps made to prevent speedrunning, even more, but I don't like not doing any map, another change that should be made, is reconsider the "difficult" of some maps as well, some are not "brutal" but the calification they have just for having traps close to the genmat... or many maps that literally are empty in most of map, and at the end its like 100 traps that you can ignore walking back while they have the activation time and its a bad strategy, just works if you stay on the middle and no way to survive, no time to destroy all that aims to you here at same time(well it's a lie you could use a barrier shield hardware or destroy some of one wall and the one that aim and slowly... but pointless)
I only made sadly 7 or 8 maps I don't really remember if I finished one and activate it, and only 1 made with bad intention, and as I said, I do almost always put some kind of secret in my maps, because I like rewarding to make it slowly and carefully or just exploring the outside, like the exit in one was literally on the genmant with all only 2 wave, you could make this map without any need of use any weapon, maybe I am not that good building I must say, but I do enjoy it, and overall watching the replays to see what people do.
Also an important thing to say is, that I do wanted to get lot of upgrades, and overall, lot of traps, I do wanted to make a base with a main thing, lets say hornet, so I needed to get them, maybe next I wanted to use the enforcers with armor, so I did needed to get more genmat.
In any case if whenever the game is release, I'd gladly watch maps with you and try to speedrun them if you want to see what can be done to prevent this without the need of piston+incinerator+corridor.
The thing that worked pretty well for me in the end was combos of dart traps with hunter on the way out (2nd wave). Basically put dart traps ahead for them to use shield or move out of the way and then have more dart traps covering where they can actually move/have them ahead and behind so they can only deflect one. People that go slow can spot and evade that (kinda) easily.
But once you know where that is its not a challenge anymore (cause shield/deflect), and if i did that repeatedly and got them more than once they mostly ragequit and didnt give accolade lol.
And yea, i havent even unlocked piston, incinerator or claw in the beta cause i dont really like the style and i wanted to mess around more with the other stuff. So there is still stuff for me to explore (some industrial themed outpost with pistons and flame traps could actually be pretty cool i guess)
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@Stryx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3346739#Comment_3346739
indeed, you get the best reward actually by leveling up, which was around 475 genmat and around 275 of the other that I remember(at least so far of the lv around 50-60 I was), about the other materials, actually I didn't had any need, you get them by default for playing, as reward of completing the raids maps, and for you to imagine, I had almost 7k of drop parts, that I did chose to waste for wasting, and I ended with 300+ granades, 150+ of shield barriers and 150+ phoenix pod (Since you get also those materials from building no real need)
synthite I didn't had that much but still more than genmat so no real need to focus on that and I did stop to get them from time to time, or to kill enemies for fun, but at the end, if you enjoy doing them fast, there's no real need to stop so far more than required, so the only thing I can really tell you is as suggested, to allow another vote type as said previously, and add in the future some traps, that really stop using grabbing hook and go throw most of traps, such as a flasgbang almost impossible to avoid but harmless just make you blind for a bit, enough to confuse you and die for other traps, doors, something that makes you go slower so speed run will not make you go throw spikes, maybe allowing a mod for certain traps such as the arrows that pierce the barrier(not the hardware one)
Thank you for clarifying. So speedrunning aka ignoring the content in the game is even the fastes way to progress it seems? Makes sense... not.
As said i didnt raid and only build, dont really rememeber but i think i reached chimeralvl 40ish by that, and i played a TON. Didnt feel slow after all though, but if raiding levels you that fast something might need to be done here as well. But yea, i had over 30k parts at the end (i didnt use any on consumables after all) and the red stuff was the limiting factor (synthite was maybe a bit short as well, but i had like 13 burial sites already at the end and prestiged most of my outposts).
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@lee_terry said:
I think that finding the right balance will be extremely difficult and take time. Therefore, players should have the option to skip a map removing it from the list of available maps. This would also help the devs because they can have the program keep track of every skipped map and investigate maps with the largest number of skips themselves later to look for unbalanced/cheese mechanics to nerf/fix. You would want to make the skip option have a restriction or cooldown though so it is not abused (perhaps you get 1 free one every day and every skip after that has a material cost that doubles each time or something). I had run into 1 of those cheese bases as 1 of the 1st maps I had played on and because I did not have any advanced equipment to use it was impossible for me to run. My options were to go to different maps which give resources I have no interest in, do a harder difficulty to hope for the best, or continue pounding my head against the wall as it were. I ended up giving up and only came back to the game when my friend offered to help me. After he cleared the base he even said "there is no way someone who just started would ever be able to clear that map". It was the lowest difficulty and so that was not an issue with me being a fool by trying hard difficulty out the gate and the friend who said that was 1 of the top players in beta. A better/easier way to make the game more balanced in that regard would be to allow players to revive at the start of the map while leaving all traps they had destroyed thus far broken. This is something you can already kinda do in multi-player by having a friend res you (making it feel like you are punishing players who play solo by requiring them to buy/use an item for this feature which you get for free in mp).
Agreed that balance will be difficult and take time. And yea, the difficulty system is unreliable at best, also there are people minmaxing deathtraps to still be rated as normal, something has to be done about that for sure.
FYI: You were able to abandon outposts to get a new one in that difficulty for that resource.
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@TrashMammal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3346169#Comment_3346169
Im going to be honest. While the accolade system is good for promoting interesting bases, I don't like the idea of builders having to "appease" the playerbase to have a successful outpost. I think players should be trying to make outposts that are as deadly as possible, and all we need are the right tools to counter outposts that are low effort/spammy.
While i agree, thats true for raiding as well though imo: W-holding and/or speedrunning with grapple/shield is low effort and/or spammy. So give builders better tools to counter that as well.
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@IcePickle said:
I don't have a big problem with speedrunning in the game. There is a natural balance against it because the genmat rewards come from the traps and guards. If you bypass them all, then you don't get genmat.
Like others have said, I rush outposts that are just annoying and feel impossible -- big rooms with sentinel eyes and guards everywhere.
I wish there were more systems to incentivize the fun in the outpost design.
I might be wrong (i only raided in the beginning of the beta and then only build actually), but isnt the genemat coming from the objective alone and the traps and guards mostly drop parts and synthite?
Also yea, there is a relation between annoying builds and rushing, thats exactly the problem i see...
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@chezpizza said:
I like the idea of pressure plates and light barriers as triggers for traps, like having bolts fire down a hallway after the raider trips the first trap. It won't stop cheese-bases or speedrunners imo.
To combat stop cheese-base, devs gave raiders gear like the shield. To combat speed runners, devs gave builders unrestricted ability to place as many traps in an area. This will be the balance the devs and we [players] have signed on for. Traps to combat equipment and vice versa.
Well, what you call "balance" here leads to the problems discussed a bit more extensive in this thread: https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/364726/equipment-weapon-additions-to-counter-frustrating-outpost-designs
If that is what the game is supposed to be, i am not sure it will survive - cause it means either use cheese to fight cheese, or suffer from unfun experiences for a lot of people all along the way (raiders that dont want to speedrun/use the shield having to abandon a lot of outposts cause they are unbeatable for them and builders having to watch their elaborate outposts being trivialized by speedrunners ignoring the content they put up for them).
Also i am convinced that the ability to trigger traps with a pressure plate or light barrier would be a superstrong tool against speedrunners (you actually dont need that for the people that think they can skip everything by just moving forward by holding w, but grappling hook spam (which needs some skill at least) is harder to come by).
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You could abandon outposts on the list to remove them and get a new one for that genemat/advisor, but no function to reroll the whole list. Also if you encountered such outposts you could block the builder, i guess that would have removed them as well?
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I mean we have the replays and the reports for the outposts, that pretty much is the activity of other players, but yea, more stuff like that would be cool.
Leaderboards or just global stats (if only for the player himself) would be cool, and yea i would like to see more abilities to interact between raiders and builders, made a suggestion regarding that already: https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/364435/we-need-an-ingame-messaging-system
Think you shouldnt really do textchat/messages though, i can see the toxicity-level in this community increasing significantly after release...
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@noggieB said:
Too many edits in a short time can trigger "Waiting for your comment to be approved". 🤷
I like the ideas for weapons targetted to counter certain designs, but the one simple idea I heard that would counter all boring/repetitive/lazy designs is:
- For prestige, make accolades more important than kills
I suspect a 70:30 ratio would do it.
That would help letting them die sooner (although tbh i didnt *really* understand the prestige mechanic and its prerequisites) but wouldnt prevent them popping up in the first place. If most people tend to such a "meta" they would still be prevalent.
Also people would probably be pissed if their outposts would be dead after a day or two (on the steam forums there is a big discussion going on about that, even that you can only prestige to lvl 10 leads to a too short outpost-lifespan for many). Not everyone enjoys the building aspect of the game, or wants his creation to be eternal.
So yea, bringing up gamemechanics to counter lazy/cheesy outposts would probably be smarter (I still think that accolades should have a higher impact reward-wise for builders though).
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@TrashMammal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3345866#Comment_3345866
Yeah, a lot of my ideas are aimed at stopping the trap spam and trying to get builders to spread out a little bit, even if it means separating out a killbox into smaller ones, those would be way easier to deal with than what is currently used.
I do agree with your point that these bases are a product of raiders holding W, which is definitely a low-effort playstyle on the raiders end.
I think there should be a slowing mechanic or even better, a way to activate traps ahead of where a raider is running instead of when they pass by, adding a new layer to builder skill by allowing builders to anticipate raiders rather than focus on where they are. This would of course be bad against cautious raiders, but I think outposts that force raiders to switch up their playstyles are interesting to think about.
I think the edit function ate your comment at some point, i saw it and then it vanished somehow, now its back lol. Anyways, it made me think of a suggestion you mention here, light barrieres and pressure plates.
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/364731/light-barriers-and-or-pressure-plates
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@Brainware said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3345842#Comment_3345842
Why longer delay? I don't think there is need for that. A hidden trap could be everywhere and the fact that decor doesn't allow is just a technical limitation at this point.
I don't see why it couldn't be implemented. Override decor with trap if trap is active otherwise show decor. If player wants to remove decor, you need to remove trap first and then decor.
What should be avoided is placing decors on holocubes and second wave lava cubes as those I think will make them too much pain in my opinion.
Yes, a hidden trap could be everywhere, and if its not directly at the genemat it will activate even with a longer cooldown till the raider approached. I am just thinking that being able to place deco on traps would make 2nd wave trapspam around the genemat worse...
And on the contrary i would really like to be able to place decals/props on holoblocks, you could have the distortion effect work on them as well so they are really obvious (reason is i was trying to give hints on some strategic bomb traps/passages/exits i hid behing holos to people that go slow, would be way easier if i could place the hints on the holos themselves. But yea, i am a weirdo that wants to help raiders (sometimes) lmao :D)
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Hmmm.... these are good suggestions, but i dont know if that wouldnt end in a buildup-spiral of people trying to counter that again with low effort/cheese. Especially with single use items, what prevents builders to try and lure them out of a raider with a killbox to then have the same killbox again (although that would be more effort and intelligent than what we seem to have currently lol)?
I think the better approach would be to prevent builders from spamming or encourage smart designs. Like some limit on trap/guard capacity per volume of base as mentioned elsewhere, or restrictions on trap placement (like piston cant have another piston in two or three square distance)?
Then there is the problem that i guess that most people resort to the cheesy builds cause they cant stand that some people seem to have an easy time avoiding everything else they put up (cough speedrunners cough ). Raiders have extremely powerfull tools at their disposal while traps have to be slow-ish or game would only be fun for people with the craziest reaction times (and the upgrades to get those tools).
Dont get me wrong, i see the problem and think as well something needs to be done about it, but i dont think the underlying issues or the solution are really easy. Lets hope they come up with some good balance changes...
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If they do that, it would have to add longer delay to trap activation upon triggering 2nd wave (for traps placed together with deco).
I build pretty minimalistic outposts, focussing more on structure/architecture than decorations, just used some lights here and there to accentuate something or point the way. And it was... weird to see really all raiders expecting trap spam at the genemat once they picked it up in the replays. Seems to be a pretty common practice, and i think its pretty cheap (also super avoidable if you dont spam/maze the genemat like crazy probably).
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@Stryx said:
I must say that speedrun is just another way to play, I do it, and I do enjoy going through the map trying to deal with what comes up to me next fast, I can understand why people don't find it funny, but I find it more exciting while you are running with 3 traps activated behind you so the thing in front of you is crucial, this requires as said the shield in general(well not always you have deflect, hardware or be fast enough shooting the arrow),the shield however which its a great tool, but it means no other weapon, so further than the suggested already, I would recommend you to put the situation where you need bow, and sword, so it makes something way harder, like place some minions with lava behind so they can't freely shoot or will lose the arrow, and traps that requires bow as the incinerators well placed.
And talking about bases to not speed run, I made one based on all second wave , sentinels with AoE some lava floor and a corridor full of pistons and incinerator no way to speedrun (most of speedrunners left after few tries) HOWEVER few people who did look at the map a bit, I did made some marks on the wall, even wrote the word TRUST as possible on the wall, and lights marking a lava ground , which was literally 4 blocks from the gem, just 1 people did tried it, and did it.
btw another tip to prevent speed run, remember you can make the route of guards, and let them stay in any position, with 3 guards on it there's no way to pass through (not the best or most beautiful way to prevent, but works) they get stuck and need to wait them to attack to go through
Thank you for proving my point...
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I didnt see a lot of duos abusing a "send one ahead to trigger strategy", also its somewhat easily countered with some strategic placed guards or multi-use-traps (the one that runs ahead usually doesnt engage with them).
While its true that solos usually net a lot of kills, i read somewhere (steam forum i think) that as builder you only get resource-drops if both of them die though, and that is something that might be a bit problematic.
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Removing the grapple is no option imo, its too cool and makes the playstyle of MyM so unique i think (at least if you have a map where you can actually use it really). While watching replays with a friend (that didnt play himself) and talking about speedrunning, he suggested to maybe give it limited charges with a cooldown to counter that, which would be an interesting option that would enforce more strategic use of the grapple. Would make some cheese strategies out there harder to counter though probably.
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Someone else suggested that, but wouldnt some limitation of a certain amount of capacity of traps/guards in any given volume of an outpost counter such builds? I have no idea how you would balance that or if its even feasible programming wise, but that seems like something that would bring people to intelligent placement instead of spam i guess.
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Is glas-spam really that bad? I build some glass-palast-outposts basically cause i like the aesthetics and the overall feel of the level then, didnt know thats an issue... (nevermind watched the vid, thats not what i did lol)
Otherwise great feedback, cant really relate to the building-experience part though (except the bugs xD). I pretty much only build from day 2 on and found it very satisfying (more block shapes though please) and rewarding (replays foremost). Havent had the feeling that progression was too slow or sustain too hard/unfair though, especially considering that its meant to be a longer-term game. But yea, cant compare to raiders perspective. Didnt build "meta"-stuff though cause i give a sh*t what others do and think and am a rather patient person lol.
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@Lastpenfighter said:
While I understand where a lot of this feedback is coming from, I was well on my way with my own bases to showing you don't have to build with a lot of "cheese" in order to give raiders a challenge. I also have some topics of conversation concerning cheese builds and player behavior overall.
- Bases that are super easy to speed run or exploit by raiders isn't a fault of the overall game design and/or base construction options. It's a creativity problem. It took me a few bases to learn it, but then I fell back on my learned experiences from shooters like Quake, Doom, and the first Halo. In those games, some of the most memorable levels and moments came from places that had choke points with multiple actions needed to pass through. You don't need "cheese" to create those points, you just need to use clever combinations that make use of the space you've created. In fact, if you can make a tough spot without needing cheese, then the raider has to use game mechanics to overcome it and that's, simply put, fun for everyone. If you resort to using cheese to kill raiders then they have to try and use cheese to overcome the obstacles. This is a lose-lose for everyone.
- Second, I was already noticing that raiders were beginning to just leave my cheese base. I created a cheesy, next to impossible base and a challenging, classic shooter inspired base on the final day of the beta. The former had very few players attempt to finish it compared to the other, where people stubbornly continued to battle through. I think that will part of the game balance upon release. Your cheese maps just won't produce for you like one that is fun and exciting. Remember, if you build for the express purpose of making it impossible instead of merely challenging then you'll just end up blocked by everyone who doesn't want that.
Basically, the community needs more time with the tools before we start truly judging whether the ones we have are good or not. For example, I see a lot of builders that seem to be upset with the speed running dynamic and are asking for changes in order to stop that. I argue that with 100% certainty, it is entirely possible to build something that is very difficult to speed through using the current offered building options and gameplay techniques. It's also possible to achieve that without spamming the same build you saw that youtuber make that was a slice of cheese pizza.
I agree with you, with two exceptions: The shield is a too strong game mechanic to overcome difficult situations (or maybe just the cooldown is too short). And yea, it is possible to build things that are difficult or deadly to speed through, but that is nothing i really want to have in my base cause it is annoying for the people that actually go fast while engaging with the content i put up and in the most cases frustrating for less skilled players.
Regarding the "creativity problem": I also build pretty shooter inspired levels, and given the one-shot mechanics this game has i would much prefer to make encounters on the way to the genemat *slightly* optional to engage (except the final objective room ofc). I tried to do that on one map, and people that "really play the game" still tried to beat them or just skipped them when they had their fill of them. Speedrunners just completely ignore them and rush past, which is - if the shield is involved - a problem of game mechanics imo.
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Yea i suggested that as well, would be super cool if accolades of outposts would be shown in the previews. Maybe even the killrate, although that might scare people away lol (It was also me that suggested accolades should give more prestige/enable to lvl outposts higher/faster than kills btw :D).
And yea, i was always happy when people that died dozens of times to my outposts still voted "fun", cause that means i did something right (We need to see the accolades connected to the reviews somehow btw, if you have a lot of raids or log in first time of the day you cant really connect that anymore ).
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@Viktoriusiii said:
"Can you guys tell me what the "only certain way" to design an outpost is and why there is no room for parcour/complex movement?"
Narrow corridor. Trap misdirection (sometimes creative, other times not) by trapping traps or building traps so that it is hard to spot them if you dont crawl along.
That is probably the only fun (but really repetative) maptype that exists currently.
Then there is a "deathroom" where there is just everything loaded with traps (preferrably endless ones like the flamethrower, plasmashooter and pistons) and loads of ranged enemies.
Then there is the simple exploitative narrow corridor which has two variations:
10-20 giants with armorplating and rage (so they all trigger at once)
or a narrow corridor with endless shooters (traps and guards) at the end, where even with invincibility you wouldnt be able to clear them all before dying (maybe with granades, invincibility and that shield tool? but it certainly isn't fun.)
I have only seen one outdoor map, which was by the devteam where it was relatively open but there are shooters all around and you have to hide behind corners. Not really my type of map (dodging projectiles one by one is just a grind for me, but maybe some ppl like it)
I have built a "pick a path" map. It gets GREAT accolades but nearly no kills, because I have to split up my traps and guards as well as build a small replica to give them a hint.
I have even seen a guy see that it was pick a path, died and shot my "dogkilling piston" to simply slowly walk behind it to let harvey decide... Like... how much of an NPC do you have to be to not even want to explore different paths???
And before I killed harvey, nearly everyone just followed harvey without a second thought.
Funny thing is: I would say that like 30% of the raiders i see kill harvey themselves at the start lol. On the replays i watch, if they dont kill harvey themselves, raiders either go that fast that they leave him behind, or are so careful and slow that they lose harvey out of sight. Either way, i still get my kills out of them, none from some, more from others, evens out :D
The stuff you describe is for sure unfun, uncreative and cheesy, but its definetly not the only way you can build your map. These are ways people build, that want to make sure that no1 or only fewest can beat their stuff, whatever they get from that or why they do it. Thats a people problem and not a game problem, and you cant change that by removing harvey, it would make it worse lol. "Beat your own map" would not change that either, cause you could still build such stuff with a secret entrance (holoblock) so that raiders would have to check every bedrock block they can see from the outside to find it... imagine that on some plots.
Btw: I could imagine a "pick your path" map on a plot with super complex baserock-structure, where you build a path for harvey to the genemat that is as long as possible, and then build up several shortcuts that cut through it (that would only be reachable by jumping/grappling). Might try something like that when i get a plot like that again. (and that, again, would annoy some people to death lol)
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@chezpizza said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3344845#Comment_3344845
If the harvey mechanic is enough to ensure that the map is beatable then I'm ok with not requiring the creator to beat the map to publish.
The mentality behind "beat your own map" I feel is because some of the designs I have seen seem to be super cheese and frustrating; adding this function it would say to raiders "yes, this map is beatable" and maybe display the time it took the creator to beat and/or the average time other raiders took to beat the outpost.
Granted there is no true to avoid dairy products in games, especially those that give creative control to players.
That said, I do feel like long term there needs to be more incentive to continue raiding other than a ranking system like unlocking more suits, cosmetics or a story mode (not sure how this would work with the current set up) because I see no reason to raid after I unlock all the current options.
My hope is that the accolade/prestige system will help weed out the really frustrating/cheese maps. Also there is a report function.
People are different, also the skillgap between players is rather large, and what is frustrating for some is a breeze for others. I have some people completing my maps deathless (without speedrunning), some with over 30 rips, some quit frustrated and dont give accolade, some rip their way through and still vote the map up.
There is a reason people complain about not getting enough raids... or ending up with negative prestige while boasting that they had "so many kills" (which might be a bug though).