Stryx
Stryx
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@clownkrieger said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3347438#Comment_3347438
Yea i dont really think that the shield is the problem, and i dont think there should be stuff thats able to penetrate it. Its just problematic in conjunction with most traps being so slow that you cant get fast moving targets with them - You can set up "semi-spammy" passages that can catch those if they mess up, but ye, when they have the shield this is pointless or would have to be super spammy or continuously and thats not really fun for others then imo.
So rather give me more tools to trigger traps from outside of their own trigger area, and let me figure out the timing to hit fast moving raiders with them (already suggested light barriers and pressure plates in feedback). That would make setting up traps way more varied and interesting and add more difficulty to speedrunning. Imagine you can trigger that bomb trap ahead of the raider... :D
the speed will not fix things, they would use the item to run, and if you increase the speed that much to catch even those it would require so advanced reflex that most players don't have, making it frustrating , since you must predict all traps, because once you activate you would be dead , or the grabbling hook.
I am gonna be honest I am gonna try to make the outpost speedrunning, no matter what, so if you make it with something more than a corridor full of pistons I would like to play it, and if its challenging even more, I don't like leaving outpost undone, just I'd not make the idea of "plate" keep it as the barrier or as sensor, so it has a range of several blocks, making no noise , so in this way you can place it like on top without any "noise" to activate it, and activating the corresponding trap as normal activation with its sounds and all, but being far away enough would be silent.
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@clownkrieger said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3347289#Comment_3347289
The thing that worked pretty well for me in the end was combos of dart traps with hunter on the way out (2nd wave). Basically put dart traps ahead for them to use shield or move out of the way and then have more dart traps covering where they can actually move/have them ahead and behind so they can only deflect one. People that go slow can spot and evade that (kinda) easily.
But once you know where that is its not a challenge anymore (cause shield/deflect), and if i did that repeatedly and got them more than once they mostly ragequit and didnt give accolade lol.
And yea, i havent even unlocked piston, incinerator or claw in the beta cause i dont really like the style and i wanted to mess around more with the other stuff. So there is still stuff for me to explore (some industrial themed outpost with pistons and flame traps could actually be pretty cool i guess)
it's not a bad strategy I've faced it several times, although at the end, with the sound, you can know if its arrows, spikes, and if you only put arrows in front and spikes behind they can still run and deflect and if you put arrows in both you can destroy the back one while running through the corner and then deflect the one in front, yes I've faced this sometimes, and if not yep, shield to cover both sides if the mistake, the shield needs no nerf, but counter, the tool is great, you can only carry 2, so must be usefull , if not its pointless... but should not work through everything or having something to make it harder.
Honestly making ragequit for me it's something to be proud, if I make those people ragequit I don't mind no accolade, but I do still enjoy it, and you may dislike it, but when people make speedrun through yours, you know there's still something to improve, when its by shield , just there's lack of something to counter it.
I must say I didn't get the point of accolades or the rank in the game yet(and still I don't tbh what are they worth for), so it took me a bit to be given them more consistently to whoever deserves them because even if for me are not I did notice some people want them.
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@clownkrieger said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3347205#Comment_3347205
Thank you for clarifying. So speedrunning aka ignoring the content in the game is even the fastes way to progress it seems? Makes sense... not.
As said i didnt raid and only build, dont really rememeber but i think i reached chimeralvl 40ish by that, and i played a TON. Didnt feel slow after all though, but if raiding levels you that fast something might need to be done here as well. But yea, i had over 30k parts at the end (i didnt use any on consumables after all) and the red stuff was the limiting factor (synthite was maybe a bit short as well, but i had like 13 burial sites already at the end and prestiged most of my outposts).
considering you play only brutal you get around 3/4 of the bar, so in general you will be making a champion outpost out of 7 maps, 3 are champion , you get 3750 exp of 1 with brutal map and then 1125*5 which is 5625 which we could assume is 1 bar in proportion lets say, you need to get 3 to reach the next level of chimera(I don't know if this would change in higher levels since in the first was only 2), so far is the fastest way to get the red thing, I don't think the problem is the amount you get, since most players don't do the maps running throughtout it I just think should be a better incentive to play it slower as said, some traps that punish if you try to ignore others, or ones that go through the barrier to prevent the use shield for everything, I don't think the barrier is bad as some said, and more even for new players, imagine starting and getting grabbed by 3 hooks at same time, in small place while running through it would not even get you.
sadly I got notified about this great game the 10th so I couldn't play all the time I'd have like(hope they make pre-purchase and open it some days before I've to try ok?) but still I got that lv, I could be getting 2 lv per hour at the end of the game time when I did got how it works and all and taking my time to check my outpost and more, at the end it was around 1-3mins to accomplish one depending of many things, and actually if giving up on the maps made to prevent speedrunning, even more, but I don't like not doing any map, another change that should be made, is reconsider the "difficult" of some maps as well, some are not "brutal" but the calification they have just for having traps close to the genmat... or many maps that literally are empty in most of map, and at the end its like 100 traps that you can ignore walking back while they have the activation time and its a bad strategy, just works if you stay on the middle and no way to survive, no time to destroy all that aims to you here at same time(well it's a lie you could use a barrier shield hardware or destroy some of one wall and the one that aim and slowly... but pointless)
I only made sadly 7 or 8 maps I don't really remember if I finished one and activate it, and only 1 made with bad intention, and as I said, I do almost always put some kind of secret in my maps, because I like rewarding to make it slowly and carefully or just exploring the outside, like the exit in one was literally on the genmant with all only 2 wave, you could make this map without any need of use any weapon, maybe I am not that good building I must say, but I do enjoy it, and overall watching the replays to see what people do.
Also an important thing to say is, that I do wanted to get lot of upgrades, and overall, lot of traps, I do wanted to make a base with a main thing, lets say hornet, so I needed to get them, maybe next I wanted to use the enforcers with armor, so I did needed to get more genmat.
In any case if whenever the game is release, I'd gladly watch maps with you and try to speedrun them if you want to see what can be done to prevent this without the need of piston+incinerator+corridor.
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@clownkrieger said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3346717#Comment_3346717
I might be wrong (i only raided in the beginning of the beta and then only build actually), but isnt the genemat coming from the objective alone and the traps and guards mostly drop parts and synthite?
Also yea, there is a relation between annoying builds and rushing, thats exactly the problem i see...
indeed, you get the best reward actually by leveling up, which was around 475 genmat and around 275 of the other that I remember(at least so far of the lv around 50-60 I was), about the other materials, actually I didn't had any need, you get them by default for playing, as reward of completing the raids maps, and for you to imagine, I had almost 7k of drop parts, that I did chose to waste for wasting, and I ended with 300+ granades, 150+ of shield barriers and 150+ phoenix pod (Since you get also those materials from building no real need)
synthite I didn't had that much but still more than genmat so no real need to focus on that and I did stop to get them from time to time, or to kill enemies for fun, but at the end, if you enjoy doing them fast, there's no real need to stop so far more than required, so the only thing I can really tell you is as suggested, to allow another vote type as said previously, and add in the future some traps, that really stop using grabbing hook and go throw most of traps, such as a flasgbang almost impossible to avoid but harmless just make you blind for a bit, enough to confuse you and die for other traps, doors, something that makes you go slower so speed run will not make you go throw spikes, maybe allowing a mod for certain traps such as the arrows that pierce the barrier(not the hardware one)
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@clownkrieger said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3345817#Comment_3345817
Thank you for proving my point...
hahahaha I want to make it clear, the problem is not speedrunning, its just another way to play and there will be who come up with it with other strategy, make the traps faster its pointless, there's even an item that makes you run faster, so at the end, you will just punish the ones who want to take their time, so far there are not much more strategies, something like a door that someone else suggested to make them stop to hit it, so they must deal with the room (but again will not work since you can just use hardware on ground and destroy it) a maze, forcing them to follow the minion, but at the end once they get half of it will do it fast, but just because you do it faster doesn't mean less skill always, some are harder to do if you don't clear it up , but yes, its not always the case. I do enjoy so much each time I see a new output, and doesn't mean to do all of them running, but neither I feel the need to destroy as some map, the around 20 sentinel eyes displaced on the map, or all the hooks around, not all strategies based on ######### thing, one for example did had hornets in a room with several hooks attatched on top with few sentinels, and some corrosive cubes well placed not letting know where to go works well.
but let me tell you something, I do find ######### to make boring outposts, and all the ones I've done with strategy to prevent speedruns, always include something , to reward the ones who do it properly, like a secret passage with holocube which is obviously not a main path and that may just look like a bad trap, a secret entrance or exit with corrosive cubes or holocube, and in general I do mark them, but at the end, you should make your outpost, because you enjoy them, not expecting to get something from them, you can't prevent people speedrunning your outpost, but for the ones people make like ######### , to get another possible vote like brutal/fun/ one to give it less rate to appear as "unfair" or "boring" or even "impossible" if you prefer and make the owner to show he can accomplish it, as for mines, I did test all of them and did accomplish them
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I must say that speedrun is just another way to play, I do it, and I do enjoy going through the map trying to deal with what comes up to me next fast, I can understand why people don't find it funny, but I find it more exciting while you are running with 3 traps activated behind you so the thing in front of you is crucial, this requires as said the shield in general(well not always you have deflect, hardware or be fast enough shooting the arrow),the shield however which its a great tool, but it means no other weapon, so further than the suggested already, I would recommend you to put the situation where you need bow, and sword, so it makes something way harder, like place some minions with lava behind so they can't freely shoot or will lose the arrow, and traps that requires bow as the incinerators well placed.
And talking about bases to not speed run, I made one based on all second wave , sentinels with AoE some lava floor and a corridor full of pistons and incinerator no way to speedrun (most of speedrunners left after few tries) HOWEVER few people who did look at the map a bit, I did made some marks on the wall, even wrote the word TRUST as possible on the wall, and lights marking a lava ground , which was literally 4 blocks from the gem, just 1 people did tried it, and did it.
btw another tip to prevent speed run, remember you can make the route of guards, and let them stay in any position, with 3 guards on it there's no way to pass through (not the best or most beautiful way to prevent, but works) they get stuck and need to wait them to attack to go through
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even if I would like it too, I don't find it kind of probably, however the possibility of "pre-purchase" and get access time before, I'd love it too, again, I don't think so, since they probably took this 2 months, to get the feedback , and act in consequence, fix main issues as the crashes and all, still, I'd be up to buy it right now to play.
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I didn't play one single time co-op yet, however , limiting the amount of deaths would make people that requires more attempt and play together to be frustrated, as overdrive it would be as simple as if they die, it doesn't affect the overdrive(unless they use their own phoenix pod). another would be to allow each one of them 1 death, or 2 in total, or maybe just it doesn't affect no matter who dies, does up to them to choose the good balance
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I don't think the given problem is about limitations, but a bit unbalanced, noone cares about how many arrow traps are, because once you trigger them, its gone, however, incinerator , and pistons, don't , and their strenght leads in small corridors, incinerator, counting with correct mods, and well placed , turns in a so annoying problem , that literally can only be solved "easy" with granades/lancer, if you sum the fact of having proper corrosive cube, and several more incinerators, because why else using something else in a corridor, it turns in a very annoying thing, you can't even melee destroy incinerator without dying once they are firing or neither use grab from max distance and melee it if has the mod of long range so you can only watch (btw if you want it more annoying put the mod of letting the ground on fire too, make it a ramp, and so its just frustrating without bow to reach). I've heard suggestion of "make owner complete it to be able to playable" however imagine changing just 1 mod, and having to repeat all each time, and neither you can say "only for mayor changes" since 1 block, can change totally the difficult of the dungeon , removing it from the back of the gem so making this a non stop repeating loop , however the idea of "accomplish it to be champion" sounds fair and keep it the way it was for this, sadly this would prevent people who wants to build challenging dungeons but don't have the skill to do them, sure you could always ask for someone else to do it but still.
In my experience I think there has been only 1 dungeon I didn't accomplish, and actually because I got dced doing it, and lost it after for some reason while this didn't happen other times, I've played 50h and all i've played practically with few exception at beginning, was brutal, and I can assure you that everything can be done even if some are really not worthy, I do remember one which was literally just incinerator & pistons all small room, and anything but annoying, or other one same thing, but it was just a 3 floor dungeon which literally was each corridor , the same, in the ramp too, or one which is one corridor filled with incinerator all the sides(making corners so its more effective than just an straight line and plasma at the end of it, with lava anything else)
(also no I didn't spent hours to make each one I do speedrun most of the maps, but this one I had to go slower, and took me like 10 minutes or 15 even , lucky this kind of dungeon """well done""" wasn't that common)
so skipping that long story, you do realize that everyone when want to make a "cheese" dungeon as you call it, they use, incinerator + corridor + piston, or small room with lots of incinerators, so its an obvious difference of unbalance, making the incinerator too strong, it activates fast, it has good range, good duration, doesn't destroy other traps, (pretty obvious, but can't be deflected , just shielded, with hardware since the timing with the barrier is impossible , you can try at maximum distance, but then its just pointless because you would be at the beginning, or run through it trying to deal what comes in the next corridor fast, which I assume is not the idea even if can be done) it can even let the ground on fire not allowing you to move while cooldown , which is not longer.
however any amount of guards or other combination of trap, even if its an spam of sentinel eyes, hornet, with all the mods you want to put on them, is not really something to be cap, hornets can be lure , and if can't then they lack or shooting speed or armor(and also you don't need to do much, there's friendly fire, they would end up killing themselves) sentinel eyes only shoot while when obviously, they see you, you have lot of tools, you can deflect, or use the barrier shield, or use the grabbing hook, to move so freedom in general in this scenarios, and cover yourself behind the own block of the sentinel eye once you destroy it, and if they explode just destroy it at distance first, or use the shield since you would be using some other weapon than melee.