clownkrieger
clownkrieger
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- clownkrieger
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Ok i am a builder, only raided first two days to get it going, so i dont really know what the majority of outposts out there look like. Can you guys tell me what the "only certain way" to design an outpost is and why there is no room for parcour/complex movement?
In the replays i watch daily (some of) my players are like crazy bunnies that hop arround everywhere and find shortcuts even i havent thought of or holes i didnt realize while building. I build (most of) my maps quite open though and with opportunities to take cover (i use a lot of guards usually), i want the player to speed up, build up pressure, and drive them into making mistakes (or trigger more guards than is good for him - even my guards have quite complex movement options on some maps). After all i want to see some fancy replays and not people slogging for half an hour through a tunnel afraid of traps behind every corner lol.
Also i want my players to be able to beat my maps, its nice to get some kills out of them, but after all we are all here to have fun, right? Some of my maps are like no challenge for skilled people or speedrunners (but usually fun, or they appreciate the traps i set up/architecture/whatever, i can see that in the ratings), and i am fine with that - i really enjoy seeing someone who knows what he does blasting through my map and escape.
Imo the problem is a certain gamer mentality, and not the harvey mechanic. Removing harvey would only allow for more bad/unfun stuff to be published. Beating your own map could be easily cheesed here as well, i pointed that out in the other thread. Also: I sometimes load into a map to change a single block for aesthetic reasons. You want me to run my whole thing again after that? And yea, im better in building than raiding, i would have to find some cheese ways for me to complete my own designs on some of them, or it would just bee too timeconsuming and unfun for myself otherwise.
If "beat your own map before publishing" becomes a rule, im out...
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From the last steam news on the MyM page, just saw:
"While an Outpost grants no rewards when it’s in the Social Active State, this custom game mode affords some extra flexibility – neither minimum defenses nor a valid Harvester path are required."
Thought about that today while messing with the social feature, you can see beforehand if there is a harvey path or not.
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"I want to build a map that I have to complete before uploading it. This means hidden entrances, dead ends and so on will finally be possible."
See, and there we have the problem: Get a big plot, build the craziest deathmaze ever, make a secret entrance with a safe path to the genemat that no1 can find in a reasonable amount of time (absolutely possible), finish it by using said path, put it online.
Other players will definetly have fun in that map...
Edit: We can agree to disagree btw, seems you play games/build for other goals then i do as well...
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"Removing the harvester would not only allow for more possibilities... you could STILL build the maps you can currently build."
While this is right, sadly thats not how most of the gamers think and act. I would still build bases the way i do, yea, but others would use every exploity thing they can find to get an advantage above others.
The option to deactivate harvey or not would be ok, but only on raiders side - builders would still have to build a path thats at least doable for the games pathing mechanics.
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Seems to have fixed itself now
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@Deevoz said:
As a part time rusher I wanna point some things out:
There is certain base builds that will make me rush. It's usually the base builds that I don't find overly fun to engage with such as the classic giant room with 500 traps and guards or too many bomb traps at a slope. It just takes a very long time to deal with all that and feels not overly rewarding - so I'd rather just run through instead of bothering with all these things. However if I encounter a well crafted map that I deem fun I'll play it slow and deal with everything accordingly.
It's btw rather simple to deny rushing. There is several things you can do as a builder to prevent it:
- Maze - If I don't know where to rush - I can't rush.
- Grapples, Pistons, Flame Traps, Acid Cubes (forgot the name), Holo Traps - Traps that don't get deactivated when you move past them once or hinder your movement.
- Specific note on the acid cubes and Holo Traps - you can make it that people can't grapple to surfaces with those. That's pretty much as anti-rush as it gets.
There is even more ways to counter it, you just have to be creative about it.
Imo it's not cheese to have a flame trap piston combo somewhere. It's just cheesy when you overdo it e.g. making the whole base just that.
Ty for the input. Yea i build rather big and sprawling bases that some might not enjoy, but i try to not overdo it with spam of anything ( i like to use some bombtraps on slopes though now and then :D). Actually i would say i am a super fair builder - you will always have room to maneuvre and can find cover in my bases. Makes them not less deadly though.
I build stuff i would enjoy playing myself, and thats the point: i dont want to do stuff that i myself (and many others) find unfun, which a lot of what you mention there is.
Anyways, i put some outposts social, thread with them is here in general, if you wanna have a look and judge yourself if my stuff is fun or not go ahead.
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Yea ik what people use to counter them but i dont want to have pistons/flamethrowers in my bases, simply not my style :D
I use other traps in combo-setup now and even try to bring them to use their shield first so i can kill them on cooldown.
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Edit: put them back into my active rotation, seems here was no interest anyways.
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So i have to confess i tried to updated some of my outposts with anti speedrun measures that are not too annoying for people that go slow... it seems to work, though worse players have a harder time now (this one didnt use shield though, so yea)
I realized another thing today thats annoying about speedrunners btw, especially WHEN you catch them: They never give accolades. Especially not the ones that lose ranking points... might take too long to press the buttons, idk :D
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Oh this one shouldnt be missed! Has some holocubes, but... there are no traps behind them (well maybe a bomb trap here and there... ;)) Way in should be kinda ez, dont rush out or you miss the surprise!
(This one was completely rebuild 2 days ago)
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"It limits creativity so much it actually blows my mind.
Any base involving a grappling hook? Impossible. Any base involving pick a path, fake floors, any creative design but misdirection of attention? Impossible."
I am so sick of hearing that honestly. Think outside of the box maybe?
I put one of my funnier bases social:
Go have a look. Steam account name is "clownkrieger"
And before you say "impossible":
- I had someone fullclear and extract deathless, took him 12 minutes.
- Can that base be speedrun? Yes, someone did it in 33 seconds (that was before last upgrades though, might be a bit more difficult to escape now. I usually dont try to counter speedrunners on my fun outposts, but did at least a bit here, as far as the design allows. Speedrunning is not the point of this, as should be obvious.)
The harvester is a necessary part of the game imo. It assures that there is a valid path. It assures that people dont cheese more as they already do (and strategies to kill the harvester are "meta" anyways, some people even try to intentinally break the path).
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They said progress from beta will be kept - if no technical problems arise.
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Bounty system is pointless if speedrunning exist and they can ignore 95% of the content i put up... i would have to fix all my bases against that if i lose a bonus when someone clears it (fast/deatless that is), and i dont want to cause those methods are super unfun for most other players.
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I had an idea instead of contests: How about gimmicks you can unlock for accolades?
Like...
- Emblems/decals/props for a certain ammounts of votings that you can display at the entrance or in your outpost (there can be different for each accolade and they could even have tiers)
- Additional slots for outposts (probably only social slots, but this way good builders can keep their burned out masterpieces published for the community)
- Im sure you can think of more stuff :D
That would motivate to build for rating rather than genemat and give builders cool stuff to strive for.
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And i am just reminding you that they have to do something against repetitive building experiences and outposts shrug.
"a map with less bedrock map is just the superior player experience with no downsides vs a map filled with it has no upsides"
For the builder to build or for the player to play the outposts that are build on it? Your statement is not as objective as you think...
"some kind of trade off"
There is a tradeoff, if you want an easy plot to build whatever base (i didnt meant to attack you with the cheese box argument btw, sorry if it seemed that way) you might have to spam some plots.
Also especially bottlenecking and trap combos dont need open space on plots, the bedrock always has enough corridors/passageways/holes to do exactly that, with the upside that its super easy to confuse the player and add some holocubes that arent super obvious.
Being able to manipulate a plot at will serves only repetitive designs/layouts from builders side. Thats my point, i dont know if that is "objective" or an "argumentative fallacy", but im sure you gonna tell me :)
Have a nice day, im done here.
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@Mellcor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3343131#Comment_3343131
but the current design dosn't stop anything, people just delete that map and try again, thus all that is being added to the game is something that annoys players and a loss of resources and time.
if the issue is boxes full of cheese traps, thats an issue with the core game, not the map
If you cant bring up the creativity, improvisation and patience to make something unique out of what is given to you, you gotta pay for it, makes sense to me.
And no boxes full of cheese traps is not a game issue, its a "gamer" issue. Your suggestion would just lead to more uniformed min-maxing and stale metas.
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If that map RNG prevents you from building an ugly concrete cube for cheese traps, it does its job very good :D
I am mainly builder and really LOVE the RNG feature, each plot is a new challenge to mess with and to build around, the random nature of available paths and the random distribution of tombs lets you think of something new every time.
With your suggestion we would have even more bad designs that are factually the same.
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Wishlist
- Allow decals/light props on holo blocks. Gotta mark that secret exit somehow not too obvious :D
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You can make pretty cool jumping puzzles in this game with the right plot and plasmas/enforcers (and a few lava cubes to spice it up). Can set you an outpost on social if you want to have a look. You either speedrun it (which is possible for some and is basically grappling-jumping), or you must be super good with movement, timing and awareness (well arguably you have to be that for speedrunning as well), cause if you stand still for more then 3 seconds on the wrong spots or the main path you are probably dead (there is lot of room to maneuvre and lot of cover though). And i had someone fullclear and extract that deathless as well, mainly with melee, its possible (and was SO awesome to watch! :D)
Wanted to post a picture first but decided against, spoilers and all...
Vertical paths for the crawler otherwise, not so sure about that. Would make bomb-trap chutes even easier than it already is...
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Yea i saw that as well, but that isnt helpful, on the contrary. People will just use that to minmax their bases to be as deadly as possible while still rated as normal to farm kills from newbs probably.
Honestly i have a "normal" base as well that seems to be pretty deadly, although i do my best to ramp it up slowly and teach some lessons on the way... but lets be bland, that base is laughable for a skilled player and nothing compared to some stuff out there. You cant take everyone at the hand and set up rules so newbs have an ez life - especially not in a game that is somewhat competitive after all...
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@whiskeyplz said:
Epic feedback. Fully agree with building comments.
Also, 600 raids? I've had bases up since the start of beta and I have nowhere near that many?
As said, maybe there is a system in place that already works regarding accolades and prestige...
Another pic to underline my point: Would these players spend that much time on a level and endure that many rips to beat it if i used cheesy ######### and they wouldnt have fun?
If any1 wants to try one of these lmk btw, i can set them social :D
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I actually read all of that and agree with most of it :)
But... i see many people complaining that they dont get raids and complain that there are only so few ways to build a map and all would be "cheese" at the same time. Maybe the problem is that they themselves build cheese and the system with accolades/prestige/whatever actually works?
I mained a builder and just raided a bit in the first two days of beta so i could buy plots, then i started building outposts. I cant complain about amount of raids - i just summed them together, i had 650 raids over 10 outposts since beta started (i was pretty early), thats 65 raids/outpost (keep in mind that i havent had 5 active all the time from the beginning) and like 90 raids/day roughly?
The thing is: Each of my outposts is unique and i dont use the cheese strategies you described (there are more btw). I would say my outposts look even somewhat pleasant and are not the ugly concrete cubes you see everywhere on the previews (i use A LOT of the glass blocks for example, people could actually scout a lot of what awaits them in some of my bases). Also tombs are always accessible, i actually build my bases around the tombs and lead the players there (to kill them ofc :D).
And all of my outposts have AT LEAST a 1.5 accolade/attempts rating (just screened it rn but its pretty close).
That doesnt mean my outposts arent deadly. I have a few fun/gimmicky ones though that naturally dont get that many kills (and are easily speedrunned/no challenge for good players), i guess averaged out over all 10 i have a kill/attempt ratio of 6, which is pretty good in my book. I kill people in fun and cool ways pretty often, i surprise them, and i even get 2 accolades from many people that should actually be super frustrated cause they die a lot to my stuff and still cant beat it (the skillgap i see between players is horrendous btw...), but they have FUN (i guess at least).
Sorry for the lengthy reply and intervention in your thread, but i just wanted to give a different perspective on that aspect of your feedback...
As example here a screen of my most played outpost (was the 2nd i build iirc, medium plot and started as brutal, didnt get better :D):
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Thats a good suggestion, but you can actually load into the outpost and exit again and all gets autocollected - game doesnt tell you though (beforehand) and i wasted a lot of time collecting and searching that stuff initially myself lol
A button directly on the build-interface would still be nice though!
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Triangle lava/holo would be super nice, but i can see that leading to even more cheese in basebuilding i guess.
And trap reaction speed is fine id say, if people want to speedrun stuff and skip content i spend time and thought creating for them, let them, the others that play my bases the way i intended have definetly more fun (also its always nice to catch the speedrunners (some of my outposts are pretty good in that) and see them ragequit lmao.
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I really hope we get some dedicated slots to set outposts on social...
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Happened again, same outpost - i actually had him offline for a day, then rebuild it completely and reactivated it, and then i got the replay from the old version (with new thumbnail and actual date...)
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@2lagged2frag said:
I think the builder should have to be able to complete their level and collect all Tombs to verify the base before it can go active.
Being able to build a fun and challenging oupost and being able to complete that outpost are 2 different things - im an old turd and have no reflexes anymore, but am pretty good at building and setting up interesting traps i would say. But yea, i couldnt finish some of my designs myself honestly (others can though, deathless even, and i am having a blast seeing them play my stuff). If that becomes a rule im locked out of the game.
All tombs in my maps are always accessible btw, i actually build my bases around them as cornerstones.
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Update: It has normalised somewhat now, trying to scroll to the end of the list still ends in the "no replays available"-screen, changing filter fixes that again though. I guess the above was somewhat caused by downloading replays (read something like that that in another thread here).
Only weird thing is that i had old replays in the list again, from sometimes yesterday (outpost was 4 in the vid and is 5 for like a day now), but date of the vid was the actual date (probably when it got put into the list?)
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Ok so i think the patch changed the behaviour but its even weirder now :D
If i delete an item or scroll to the end of the list the whole list becomes alife and starts duplicating entries over and over and jumps between them, the UI becomes completely unresponsive and i have to alt f4 the game
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Yea i know you are right (and you know that i know i guess lol), but...
... i see the shield often used as argument why bases that are in some eyes near exploits or simply extremely cheesy are ok... but that stuff is just extremely frustrating for people that dont have that shield on them or unlocked yet. Idk, i have a different understanding of this game probably, and yea i actually shouldnt complain and just do my stuff - i actually dont raid at all anymore and just build and modify my outposts, so what do i care about the frustration people experience when raiding...
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Have the same on two more outposts now, these kills are "eternal" and go never away (the raid attempt on mifflin was actually a deathless run)
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Another observation: The bug is "fixed" when i get a new replay, but returns after watching/deleting like 2-3 items...
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You can level its prestige and "refill" it that way (costs some of the orange credits though). Go into build mode on the outpost, hit escape, "prestige" tab at the top.
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Update on this: I tried to keep some replays that were awesome to watch, and it seems if you exceed a certain amount (which is not big, like 10) the menue starts freaking out. If i open it now i see the replays for a second until it switches back to the "No replays available-screen", cant even see them when i select "succeeded" now and reloging doesnt fix it anymore
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Update to this: I actually have kill-markers in the outpost then, but they display this, see picture (although i didnt change the defence that killed him there). Had that on deathmarkers already several times now that i think of it, so it might happen more often than i actually realized...
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And another one, this one had a replay - an old one from yesterday or so i guess (there were changes not done that i did yesterday at least), might be related and reported that already, see https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/363873/old-replays-popping-up#latest
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QOL Suggestion:
- I want to see the results/details of this report per outpost, but have to wait till the genmat and XP got awarded, maybe make it so you can skip those steps with mouseclicks? (picture 1). Also why has the detailed report even the entries for depleted/inactive outposts? (picture 2)
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On 2nd thought killrate would probably not be good cause it could scare people away... :D
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Wishlist
- Global stats page where people can see stuff like the amount of raids/successes/fails/rip-ratio for raiders and Raidattempts/successes//killrate/accolades for builders. And i mean for all outposts together, not broken down per one, we have that. There could even be a public ranking of some stats?
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Well its effective but cheap and cheesy imo. And yea, people get annoyed and you probably dont get good accolades on that outpost.
Btw, imo the prestige-costs for upgrading levels are a bit low... and accolades should have a big impact compared to kills to weed out those stuff i think.
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There seem to be a lot of people that dont understand the tomb "mechanic" , i dont think that everyone blocks them by purpose - you find a lot of plain open tombs on outposts as well. And yes, that is a wasted oppurtunity to build traps for raiders, i design my outposts now in a way that i lead raiders to the tombs and try to kill them there (didnt know of it/understood it initially as well though and i see people just running past them in the replays as well).
I highly doubt that the creator loses anything when they get looted, and dont think thats report-worthy honestly.
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Ad 2) You can "refill" depleted outposts by leveling their prestige (in the build mode, press escape, at the top is a tab for it - dont ask me why this is that hidden). It costs a bit, but usually way less than you spend for the plot (especially for big plots, cost raises over time though).
I see the problem in #3 as well though, if an outpost is played its gone from the pool for that player unless there is some mechanic we dont know.
I have to say that the amount of money i get seems to be fine though (maining builder as well and have like 8 plots already, i can play a lot though). If you have successful outposts they net quite good (i have a pretty deadly prestige 3 outpost by now and it still gets played quite often, that will change for sure though). But keep in mind that you are not meant to unlock all traps/guards/whatnot in the first week...
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You can report them from ingame, best thing to do probably (should still work from the replay of your raid actually).
And yea, thats a stupid thing to do, the possibility crossed my mind though when i looked at the corrosion cube upgrades lol (i would rather block the entryway and make a worse 2nd way to exit though)
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You dont lose anything if the other players get the vaults, so/but blocking them off completely is... not nice.
I actually enjoy building bases around the given vaults/genmat position/bedrock and try to lead my raiders to the vaults (and build some really bad traps around them :D ). Usually the #1 killspots in my bases (loot eats brain as we say lol).
But yea, having a preview of what you buy would actually be nice, but keep in mind that other factors besides being able to build the dream outpost are important as well (what genmat for which advisor is in the outpost for example).
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@FlamingZelda said:
"Ability to remove all buildables from a site in one go"
This already exists. Go into the build menu, go to the tab on the far right (sets or something like that) and there should be an option labeled "Free up memory" or something like that. Select that option and it will remove all blocks of a selected type. Do this for the 3 or 4 block types which start in the outpost, and viola! you have a clean bedrock only outpost.
"Ability to claim all "drops" from kills without entering buildmode and searching for them"
100% agree. Picking up drops is a newbie aid tool, but for an experienced creator who understands the replay function it'd be way better to just automatically harvest the drops.
"More block-shapes."
I played for a few hours last night, and while just the three block shapes was a bit of a steep learning curve, I agree a triangle corner and inverted corner would be great additions. My idea is we put regular block, half block, and triangle corner in one shape cycle, and then the existing strange triangle and inverted corner in a different shape cycle. That way players can still cycle through 3 shapes, but there is the option to select more shapes.
Thx for the tip, think i found it! (but didnt test it cause i didnt want to destroy a working outpost, will try on next claim :) )
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+1 for a discord :D
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Woo crazy lmao, thx a bunch, downloading :)
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Super hyped for it and glad i saw it this time - wishlisted MyM on 3rd august, 2 days before the closed was announced and missed that :( Should have followed as well probably but i never do that somehow.
Anyways, new here, my friends call me Clown (and yes, i am ok with that :D ). Really looking forward to the beta, from what i saw this game might be right up my alley and i am super interested to see more and get my hands on it!
So yea, cya in 2 and a half days i guess :)