QueenSaccharine
QueenSaccharine
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I should clarify the above example is pretty rare as pretty much any survivor with more than 50 hours in the game is running full meta perks anyway, but the fact that the people who do exploit this kind of mechanic have probably done it far, far more times than I've ever seen, worries me. And it worries me that it might encourage others to do the same.
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@lauraa said:
Left Behind seems to be asafety blanket for new players. They startle easy, so let em have it.
They'll take it off when they are ready.
I should clarify my complaint here is not about beginners or people going for the adept. Losing a match as survivor because your team is newbies can be frustrating, sure, but they're new. They'll get better and learn. We were all new once.
But I have legit seen people with over 800 hours or so run three meta perks and then left behind as the fourth perk, and even though that person is supposed to be experienced and have mostly strong perks that could help them throughout the match, they do one gen and then hide in a corner of the map, and you can see them with aura reading while on hook and they clearly have no intention of helping out you or your team.
On the other side of things, I remember a match recently where I got a pretty brutal 3k at 3 gens on the new Haddonfield. Didn't even see one of the survivors the whole match and they escaped through hatch. I thought "oh well, still a win in my books" and went to type gg in chat like normal. Then all three other survivors started complaining that the survivor who escaped sat on about half a gen and then crouched in a corner for the rest of the match, didn't even heal people when they walked up to her, let alone go for unhooks. Felt really awkward. And I thought to myself... Yeah, if I was playing survivor this match, I probably also would've felt cheated for being paired up with a teammate like that. Guess what perk that survivor was running.
Anyone who has a decent amount of experience with the game should not be playing poorly intentionally because they know they can and will get away with it, is the point I'm making.
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@Valik said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2949144#Comment_2949144
Gotcha!
I'd say it's agree to disagree at that point. I don't think it's all that more powerful in practice, but we absolutely agree that this change would make people actually take the perk - which is exactly what we all want.
I'd like to see some data on a version like this though, if it helped survivors in the End Game but wasn't absolutely broken - it would help make it a much more popular perk.
Pretty much. I understand that sometimes your team messes up and it can screw you over, which is why I don't even mind most "selfish" perks, but getting to see the hatch with Left Behind/Clairvoyance means that you're on average more likely to get an escape by actively being harmful to your team's overall success. My point is that Left Behind should be something to help a survivor who is "left behind" because their other teammates have died, but not something that would help a survivor to the point where they would WANT all of their teammates to die.
More perks should be made to encourage players, both survivor and killer, for doing their objectives and doing them well. We're Gonna Live Forever rewards BP for safely unhooking and taking protection hits, BBQ & Chili rewards BP to killers for hooking multiple people instead of just one or two people over and over. While the reward shouldn't always be BP, more perks should be like this, in my opinion.
Imagine if NOED worked on tokens, where each survivor hooked before the exit gates are powered provides a 1% bonus to movement speed when it activates, up to a maximum of 4%. If you have 4 tokens, all survivors become exposed until the totem is cleansed. It would still be a powerful perk but you would have to at least work for it.
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Obviously there's no way to know for sure, but if I look at the endgame screen and there's a Bill with Borrowed Time, Unbreakable and Left Behind, it's pretty obvious he's either new or going for the adept and I wouldn't mind if he were my teammate. It's hard to blame new people for being new and everyone goes for adept achievements at some point or another. Hell, I have the adept Bill achievement too. Ended up escaping through the exit gate anyway lmao
And I mean yeah if someone's going for archives then do whatever, chances are you weren't playing seriously anyway, but I don't think hatch challenges should be a thing in the first place since there's so, so many factors going into whether any of your games will even come down to "killer vs last survivor trying to find the hatch first". At least challenges like cleansing totems, unhooking other survivors or even doing glyphs, you can do those (nearly) every single game. But challenges is a completely different discussion altogether.
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@Valik said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2947691#Comment_2947691
Two health states may be a bit much - I can see it being limited to one.
Although, I'd like to discuss the aura reading of the killer being a 'Free out' - I never thought this was the case, seeing the killer's aura is pretty strong in certain circumstances, but it is far from OP in my book.
What's your thought process of why it's so strong? What makes the aura read a 'Free Out' ?
My point is that seeing the killer's aura AND the hatch's aura would mean that any decently experienced survivor would know how to make it from where they are to the hatch without being spotted. Seeing a killer's aura throughout a match with things like kindred can be helpful but far from unbalanced. But getting to see the killer plus your free exit while the killer doesn't see either bar luck being incredibly in their favour is overdoing it for sure. It might even turn it into a popular perk if it worked like that, honestly.
@mileto_br said:
Not sure if anyone already mentioned it in the replies, but hatch does not count as a win in MMR, it is a tie. Still, MMR sucks.
It's not about whether it's a win or not - as described above, hatch is pretty much never considered a win except for maybe the sole survivor who got their 5000 extra BP for escaping. It's about the kind of behaviour it rewards and indirectly promotes just by being there.
@Bartlaus said:
For real? Are we complaining about "Left Behind" now? What's next? "Monstrous Shrine"?
You joke about it, but I can tell you without even checking that people have complained about Monstrous Shrine before. More than likely in one of the many posts about basement Bubba. People will complain about any perk, I'm aware I'm not much different. I just personally dislike perks that reward bad play or encourage bad behaviour. I like No Way Out as an endgame perk because it rewards you for playing well, I dislike NOED as an endgame perk because it rewards you regardless of if you played your heart out or went afk all game. You feel?
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@sulaiman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/322941/the-worst-endgame-perk
Well, first of, i used to run left behind, because i only play solo.
So in half the games someone either dcs or hook suicide before more than one gen is done, giving the killer a free win. Then 2 things can happen. You can still try to fight, and if that doesnt work, you can go for the hatch, via left behind. Or you can just run up to the killer and hook suicide yourself, which i sometimes do when this happens and i dont run left behind. Why play a match were i wont escape anyway because one of my teammates dont like the map or killer? A waste of time. The posibility of the hatch keeps me going then.
Also, while i run this perk (no, actually clairvoyance now), i do gens, i help my teammates, but yes, i avoid getting hooked, and are often blamed for it, even though i am in chases with the killer but since most killers are not used to getting juked anymore, i often escape a chase unhooked. Yet, i am blamed for that, even though i wasted the same amount of time with the killer than everyone else.
So, your sterotypes of users of certain perks are just stupid and wrong, because how i am the worst player if 2-3 others are gen allergics that dont touch gens at all, or dc because the map didnt spawn them beside a gen?
Also, since Clairvoyance is far superior to left behind, since it has a 64 meter range. And yes, i will keep it, because otherwise, i spent too much time trying to die to get a decent game.
I understand solo survivor is frustrating - believe me, I do, I reached rank 1 for the achievement while solo and it was hell - so I can definitely understand favouring selfish perks or at least having 3 out of 4 perks being selfish and maybe bringing Borrowed Time as well. But my point with Left Behind (and being able to see the hatch aura through Clairvoyance) wasn't that nobody ever who runs this perk deserves a win, my point was that it makes "winning" too easy for the survivor that brings it, ESPECIALLY if you were to play incredibly selfishly. So in your example above, you were still pulling your weight for the team - but let's say one of your teammates brought Left Behind/Clairvoyance, and they really want a win, so they know that by not playing altruistically, not only are they safer, their team is more likely to die off, which makes them more likely to find hatch. So by pulling your weight, you're putting yourself in more danger, making it more likely you'll die, and more likely that your teammate who just left everyone for dead and hid in a locker gets out.
Do you see the issue? The effect of the perk isn't so much the issue as the fact that the perk rewards people for playing poorly. Even the most meta perks on survivors that everyone complains about, like Dead Hard, Borrowed Time, Unbreakable, etc. are all only "second chances" that will eventually run out if the killer were to play around them or keep tacking on pressure to go for a 4k. Realistically, how can a killer play around someone hiding across the map in a locker that's more than likely going to escape because they brough a perk that lets them see the hatch? Sure, they still "won" and got a 3k so the killer probably doesn't care all that much, but your teammate also technically "won" over the rest of you who probably deserved it more. And for so long as your teammates can have perks that encourage and reward selfish play, it's only going to make solo survivor a more agonizing experience.
Think about all the times someone self cared in front of you and refused to let you heal. Think about all the times someone came up to you for a heal, and when you needed healing, they teabag you and then run away. Think about all the people who kept trying to flashlight stun the killer out in the open and yet made no attempt to save you or your teammates when you got picked up. Should these people really be rewarded for this kind of playstyle just because they brought a single "get out of jail free card" perk?
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@Valik said:
I 100% Agree.
At this point, it is only useful to cheese out those incredibly annoying "Open Hatch" challenges.
It really needs a rework that gives it a big impact if the survivor truly is Left Behind
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This perk becomes active when you are the only survivor remaining in the match, or the End Game Collapse has begun.
See the aura of the Killer and the Hatch when they are within 16/24/32 meters.
When another survivor leaves the match or dies, you are instantly healed for a health state over the course of 4 seconds.
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Giving wall hacks to survivors and a free health state when their friends die or get out of dodge, this perk can become pretty powerful. It can even be coordinated to a stupefying effect by numerous survivors. However, in practicality, this incarnation of the perk shines when you are at your most desperate moments at the very punctuation of the match. When you are the last one, or the forgotten one. Dying on the floor as your last living teammate leaves you for dead and another just died on hook? Congrats, you’ve been left behind - you’re restored to full health. The counter to this perk is in its own name - the killer is going to have to make this survivor the one that gets left behind. The perk, however, loses all of its potential when the opposite is true. When the killer either takes out the designated survivor before the end game arrives, or if they focus on other players during the final moments of the match. In reality, this can be seen as an ‘Adrenaline on drugs’ but can only be triggered in very particular situations. End game builds will have to contend with the healing as the final kills are mounted, but so long as the exit gates remain closed and the survivors are trapped as a group within - the perk refuses to shine its true colors, making it a true value pick for anyone who plans on making a clutch play.
What do you think?
I think that being able to see the killer AND the hatch would make it even more of a "free win" which is not what I think a perk should be. Getting healed one health state when you're the last person in the match doesn't sound so bad, but healing two health states at once sounds a bit much.
Admittedly this can already sort of be done with adrenaline - if you let the killer find the hatch first and kick it closed, you get healed and a speed boost, same as if you finished repairing gens. But Left Behind could be a free heal without the hatch getting kicked closed, leaving you a chance to escape that way as well. Would also make it a decent anti-slugging perk in a way, so killers can't slug at 5 gens and get a 4k.
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@KurnDisciple said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2946194#Comment_2946194
Solo Q is a desolate potato infested wasteland and I am more than happy to see my team sacrificed many games
And if I don't think it's too risky ill give em some bags on their way out
Left behind is a fantastic perk for many reasons
Solo queue is a wasteland exactly because everyone is willing to watch their teammates die, and exactly because perks like left behind exist.
If you hate solo queue, and you hate performing altruistic actions as survivor, maybe don't play solo queue.
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@Jacoby2041 said:
I feel like the perk should be reworked, along with Sole Survivor while we're at it. Both perks rely on teammates dying, which is not a good condition to have, and even when that condition happens the perks still suck. No idea what they could be changed to, maybe they should have different names and effects altogether
Sole Survivor isn't any good, yeah, but I agree that perks that reward either side for playing poorly aren't good for the game. More perks should reward the player for doing well towards their objective. Survivor perks that get stacks for completed gens or safe unhooks, killer perks that get stacks for hooking multiple survivors, and so on.
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@Xendritch said:
Imagine running Left Behind when Clairvoyance exists.
Forgot that affected hatch as well for a moment. Yeah, I'd say all of this applies to Clairvoyance as well. Cleansing totems is good and all, but not "cleanse one dull totem = easy escape for you if your team ######### up". The perk is otherwise fine but shouldn't include the ability to find hatch imo, especially not at such a ridiculous distance. You can even bring a key, drop it, activate Clairvoyance, then pick up the key again and escape that way.
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@Leatherface1990 said:
You lose to hatch a lot huh.
No, not really. It's a 50/50, and sometimes I give hatch to the last survivor because I feel they deserve it. Besides, a 3k is still a win for killer, unless your goal is to farm BP, in which case a win is whatever gets you more points. So a survivor getting out through the hatch isn't a loss, I still killed a majority of the team.
This perk mainly bothers me when I play survivor, trying to do dailies, archives, pips, whatever, and then the one teammate that did nothing all game lets everyone die and gets away with it because they brought this perk.
But nah, sure, I'm "jelly" of a perk I already have, that everyone already has, because Bill is a free character.
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@Krazzik said:
It mainly just exists for people doing their archives, otherwise you should literally never use it. It's not even worth using outside of that because it's still no guarentee you'll get the hatch, and even if you do, if you were deadweight for your team you'll still get hardly any BP.
As any facecamping Bubba will tell you, BP gains will not discourage poor play. There are also plenty of ways to farm BP solo, such as sabo'ing the same hooks over and over with gloves, cleansing totems, doing the first generator you come across and then letting your team deal with the rest of them, and so on.
I'm not against the concept of the hatch itself. A 1v1 is always killer sided, so giving a potential second chance that is mostly up to luck isn't a terrible fix to that. But Left Behind removes that luck aspect.
"If you have an archive to do X and then escape, why bother repairing all generators and making sure your whole team lives? It would be much easier to let them die and then get hatch because the killer doesn't know where it is. Hell, might as well farm them off of hook without Borrowed Time so they die quicker. Even easier win." That's the kind of mindset that this perk rewards.
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@Leatherface1990 said:
You jelly.
Obvious bait is obvious. Unless you legitimately want to out yourself as being deadweight in every single match that runs exclusively selfish perks and lets all of your teammates die, in which case, go right on ahead.
@sizzlingmario4 said:
Tbh I think it just shouldn’t do anything related to hatch and should have a completely different effect.
Hatch perks are not healthy for the game.
I agree. Imagine if there was a killer version of Left Behind, where the killer could see the aura of the hatch. The amount of "I'M QUITTING DBD FOREVER" posts would increase tenfold until BHVR removed it before it even left the PTB stage.
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@Icaurs said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2940313#Comment_2940313
Which is exactly my point. Nobody wants to go against sweat, even if they are sweating themselves.
It would take for anyone to find a match, as everyone will keep dodging, looking for weak targets. I don't want this, but a killer should not be able to dodge a match because they are versing a man swf. Yet as a survivor get no warning they are about to verse the sweatiest nurse of 2022
I agree that it wouldn't be a healthy addition to the game (although showing swfs in postgame lobbies would be neat), I'm just saying, comparing seeing a killer in advance + addons to knowing if a group of survivors is swf or solo isn't a fair comparison.
Besides, as it is, the especially toxic swfs and/or survivors that are blatantly hacking have a tendency to linger in lobbies with one character without an item, then wait until the timer hits 6 seconds, then immediately switch to pink haired Nea holding a flashlight. I've seen 3 survivors do this simultaneously. They're clearly doing this to avoid lobby dodging, but killers can't swap out to different killers once they're in a lobby, so they wouldn't even have this (admittedly very stupid) option.
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I've never had a match where discordance hasn't come in handy.
It can be stressful sometimes, much like with tinkerer (and especially paired together), but the information it gives is invaluable. It tells you where two or more survivors are at once and lets you know which generators need your immediate attention. But one thing people often don't consider is, what discordance doesn't tell you is also valuable.
Let's say you have one survivor dead, you're chasing another survivor, and there are two survivors unaccounted for. If discordance doesn't activate, you know they're not slamming a generator as fast as possible to try and secure a comeback. They may be split up on gens, or one or both of them might be healing/cleansing totems/etc. instead. Knowing what survivors aren't doing is as valuable as knowing what they are.
Information perks are some of the best in the game, especially the more you've mastered your killer and don't have to rely as much on gen slowdown. Keeping track of up to four survivors at once can be quite the hassle, but discordance and other perks like it can keep you focused on your goal of pressuring all survivors as much as possible.
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@Icaurs said:
I have said this before, and I'm curious.
If killers are allowed to see SWF, so that they can determine a match is sweaty and no play. Would you be ok with survivors seeing which killer and addons they are versing so they can determine if a match is sweaty and not play? Or would survivors dodging every time you run iridescent addons be unfair somehow?
I don't think the addons comparison is fair - killers still wouldn't be able to see survivor's addons, right? So they can see a toolbox in a lobby, and not know if it's a brown toolbox with no addons, or a yellow toolbox with gloves for a sabo team, or a green toolbox with brand new parts.
Being able to see which killer you're going up against before the match starts is a more fair comparison, but that would honestly result in way, wayyy more dodges than killers seeing a SWF team. Spirit players would never get a game because nearly every survivor main hates spirit. The complaints about "too many nurses and blights" would amplify tenfold. The only lobbies that won't get dodged are maybe, like, trapper.
Just a brief browse through this forum will show you how survivor mains think every killer is either way too powerful and needs heavily nerfed, or the killer is just too boring to play against and needs to be removed from the game because they're making the game too boring for survivors.
Now imagine that people like this could dodge any killer they want.
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Typically, survivors will heal from 0 to 100% in one go whenever they have the opportunity, and will rarely heal otherwise. The exception being using up the last few charges of a near depleted medkit.
What sloppy butcher does is reward you for interrupting people who are healing, which is one of the things killers are supposed to do in order to gain bp in the deviousness category, but rarely actually do without nurse's calling/some other aura perk. It also passively nerfs circle of healing a little because if one or more people are healing near a boon and you snuff it out, their progress goes back to 0 and they have to waste more time setting up the boon and healing all over again, or just get healed by a teammate. Usually CoH wastes the killer's time far more than the survivor's, but if you're an m1 killer with sloppy butcher, then stamping out the same boon totem 5 times in one game can actually play into your favour (so long as you can keep people injured).
It pairs well with thanatophobia, so people don't just say "screw it" and do gens without healing, and nurse's calling to see survivor auras when they're healing. And while I've used deathbound a decent amount and can attest that it's not as useless as some think it is, it's true that it doesn't activate when people just heal themselves instead of each other. Maybe franklin's demise is a better choice if you want to get rid of medkits.
Overall though, sloppy butcher isn't particularly remarkable. It's a nice counter to the healing meta for some killers reliant on their m1 but for most killers there's usually a better perk you could be running unless you're running a full anti-healing build - which is surprisingly decent, but inconsistent.
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@Ryan489x said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2940186#Comment_2940186
I don't play like that but if you're going to use the streamer argument, what about the killers who stream snipe and swear they're not. How fair is that?
I'm sorry, but if someone puts "TTV" in their name, they're making it easier for people to stream snipe them. I don't know how much of an advantage being able to see a single survivor's screen with a 30 second delay or something actually is, but, c'mon. If you want your teammates to know you're streaming, just say "I'm streaming lol" in the pregame chat.
There's also people who will put TTV in their name and then accuse anyone who wins against them of stream sniping. They're probably not even streaming half the time. Thankfully I haven't encountered this myself but I hear it's common and has been for a long time.
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@Ryan489x said:
The real question is, why are killer perks still hidden until the end of a match?
I know why they did it don't get me wrong. However if I'm playing solo I'd like to see what I was up against when I get tunneled out of a game in less then 2 minutes and not have to wait till the end.
Also as a survivor I can call about 3 of the 4 perks in game anyway so I don't think it's really a big deal to keep them hidden anymore.
It's to prevent giving your teammates an advantage.
Even if you're not playing survive with friends, you could still, for example, message your teammate on steam mid-match and say "oh btw watch out for NOED lmao" and it would show up in the corner of their screen without them even having to tab out. If solos could see killer perks before the game has ended for everyone, then people would go on comms with their friends and try to wind up in the same solo lobby rather than choosing to swf.
If you give people an opportunity to get an unfair advantage, no matter how awkward and unintuitive it may be, they'll take it.
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@JonahsTablet said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2940116#Comment_2940116
Depends on the killer, I always smile to myself when I'm playing Nemesis on there, but when I'm playing Billy/Bubba there it's pure pain.
Pyramid Head can be very opressive on Gideon. Hitting people through walls, making every safe pallet unsafe, placing trails in hallways so survivors have no choice but to get tormented, etc.
It's even one of the better maps for Sadako, despite the pallets. Easy to sneak up on people and catch them off guard, projecting a lot can inflict condemned on multiple survivors over time...
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@Jururu said:
I think the biggest problem with tunneling and camping is the fact that the game is unbalanced, rewarding good behaviour won't help it, and considering that BHVR is thinking about changing the grind, the mix of these two problems won't be a nice solution to the game.
Think about it, if you go to a map like Gideon as a M1 killer against a average team you will hardly get a good game, if you put perks in this mix you will have 4 players that can run all gens and leave quite easily. Get a M1, survivor goes to a loop, drop pallets, hide with Iron Will, Dead Hards, dissapears etc etc, CoH appears and he heals up, now all you progress is lost.
The thing is, if we considering not to change maps, perhaps the best solution would be to work with perks like Enduring and Brutal Strength, not saying that all killers should have a enduring base kit but perhaps a 0.3 sec less stun? a 0.3 less time to break a pallet, that would be a minor change that could make the game more fluid to killers, if a person it's feeling good, he's downing people, getting hooks and gens are popping slower that would make him fell more powerful, i think the tunneling question is a problem of power also, if a killer is confident that he can go around loops and down survivors he will do it.
I think brutal strength already only shaves about 0.4 seconds off or something like that, but seeing as it's been nerfed in the past, maybe brutal strength as basekit could be too strong, who knows? Would require a lot of testing.
Also, somewhat off-topic here, but I see plenty of people say that Gideon is a rough map for a lot of killers or that it's very survivor sided but I just don't see it. The pallets are very safe, sure, but it's easy to corale survivors into corners of the map and deadzones and leave them trapped and ensure a hit/down, and patrolling gens is deceptively easy once you're used to the layout. idk, I've always thought of it as one of the better maps for killer, though I'm sure some killers like Billy or Huntress struggle there.
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@JonahsTablet said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2940094#Comment_2940094
Finally, I think this is the first time I've ever been able to come to a compromise with someone on these forums, I think I should just go outside instead of spending my time bickering with other people here.
Hey man, if you don't care about game balance, that's fair enough, I'll gladly discuss it with people who do instead. But we can all agree on good play being rewarded. And more BP, because holy damn, you never don't need BP.
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@JonahsTablet said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2940072#Comment_2940072
Now we're getting to the same point that I always get to when debating things about DBD, I honestly just don't care about balance, it's clear Behavior have absolutely no clue what they're doing, if you disregard all other changes and just made the bp gains for BBQ basekit, I'd be ok.
That I would not argue with at all. Giving bonus bp for playing well sounds like it should be a given, and being rewarded for hooking multiple survivors in basekit may not fix the issue but could convince some people to tunnel/camp less.
Same could be said for the bp bonus given by We're Gonna Live Forever for survivors. Maybe less of your solo queue teammates will stop unhooking you in front of the killer without BT, or leaving you to die off of one hook even when the killer isn't facecamping. Hell, it could make solo queue an actually bearable, perhaps even enjoyable experience.
...Nah, like that would ever happen.
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@JonahsTablet said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2940032#Comment_2940032
Then just nerf Nurse and Blight to compensate, I hate this attitude people have when it comes to making perks basekit, the biggest problem I have with the game is having to buy new chapters just to get mediocre perks that will become obsolete in a few years. Tunneling and camping are very powerful playstyles, but if there was another way to play that was equally as powerful, then you would see a large reduction in those behaviors.
Nerfing one or two top tier killers would not balance that out at all?
I understand the frustrations of having to pay money or wait months to spend iri shards just to get one or two perks that might not even be as good as they're cracked up to be, but making perks basekit throws the game balance off, requires those perks to be reworked, requires perks with synergy to be reworked/nerfed as well, etc. and the balance between the game being survivor or killer sided is already flimsy at the best of times.
The biggest problem with perks becoming basekit is an obvious one but it's one people don't often consider: you still have four perk slots, and now you can free up those perk slots for even more ridiculously meta perks, or run a bunch of perks to immensely buff and abuse your newly buffed basekit.
I'm not against the idea of some perks being carefully reworked into basekit with consideration to game balance and fairness for both sides, but that takes a lot of time and effort on behalf of the devs and something like that won't just happen overnight. And none of us are going to be able to accurately predict how these changes affect game balance without extensive testing in or even after a PTB.
Saying "just make pop/BT basekit lol" does not factor in any of this and could easily break the game for one side or the other if not implemented carefully. And above all else, neither would fix the issues with tunneling and camping that they're supposed to in the first place.
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I agree with the idea of incentivizing killers to play better and not resort to tunneling/camping, but giving all killers buffs and making perks basekit isn't the answer. That just creates new problems while not solving the initial problem.
Giving survivors perks as basekit isn't the answer either. If all survivors had BT as basekit, killers would camp hooks even more than they already do. If all survivors had decisive strike as basekit, killers would slug at 5 gens all the time. Hell, the mere existence of boon perks already encourages killers to tunnel, since the survivor who set up a boon can keep setting up the same boon over and over again without any drawbacks until they're dead.
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It goes both ways. We shouldn't point fingers one way or the other and say that it's a survivor problem or a killer problem but rather a "people don't know how to act" problem.
If you're a survivor main, you'll encounter more toxic killers and assume that the killer side is more toxic. If you're a killer main, you'll encounter more toxic survivors and assume the survivor side is more toxic.
Speaking as a killer main myself.
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Hearing that Sadako was being added was what finally made me decide to try out Dead By Daylight for the first time and I had every intention of having her be my main, but the current meta is just so rough for Sadako, and her being one of the few killers with next to no chasing power at all makes me sad. I play her a lot, but generally more for fun, and I've ended up becoming a Pyramid Head main instead (another killer that made me want to give DBD a try).
Even playing casually and not trying too hard for a win is rough when there are so many survivor teams that will BM the whole match and completely get away with it because of their second chance perks and super safe loops and pallets. The only maps where I feel really confident with her are Midwich, Lery's, and whatever other few killer sided maps there are.
An easy fix to this would be to buff her movement speed while demanifested. Not Wraith level, but maybe something like 10% faster than her manifested speed. This would help her in chase, make her less agonizing to play on larger maps, and wouldn't be too oppressive since she can't hit while demanifested and is slowed down briefly while manifesting. She'd essentially be a mix between Wraith and Demogorgon without excelling in either one's strengths - but to be fair, that's kind of what she already is.
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@Mister_xD said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2939812#Comment_2939812
hiding on the edges of the map as release Claudette hoping the Killer got bored and he DCd was a strategy Survivors could use
No, this is called "holding the game hostage", not a strategy. First of all, it is, technically speaking, still a thing and secondly, it is bannable, because it forces the match to a standstill of undefined length.
This does not apply to camping nor tunneling, as both are legitimate ways the Killer can progress their side of the objective.
And whether you like it or not, tunneling has become a necessity at this point. You are absolutely right, its boring, uninteractive and unfun for everyone involved, but not doing it comes close to throwing the game as Killer. Heck, I literally quit this game because i didnt want to be forced to camp and tunnel out all my matches!
But here is the harsh reality: you can not fix those issues. Camping and tunneling will always be a thing. What are you planning to do about a Killer not leaving the area of a hooked Survivor? And what about a Killer focussing one guy over the others? Whats the solution here, ban them? You'd have to fundamentally redesign how Killers progress their objective for this, remove hooks alltogether and do something entirely different that the Killer can't just camp or tunnel off, but you don't fix this by giving Survivors BT basekit.
But this isn't really what my comment was about. Not at all, actually. What I said was, that Survivors have clear counterstrategies to those Killer strategies already and acting like they didn't is plain out wrong.
And like I said, I don't mind improving on them either, a ping system for example would do wonders against campers! Make it less enticing of a strategy to use and people will stop using it (yes there are going to be those poeple that will use it no matter what, but they are a clear minority), but right now, it is the best way for Killers to try and win in this game.
Before we buff Survivors again maybe we should stop for a second and think about why Killers use these strategies so much.
Fix the root of the issue, not the symptoms.
While I don't think tunneling someone out early is exactly a "necessity", it can damn well feel like it when you're up against incredibly good survivors, and I agree that it skews the game heavily in the killer's favour if done correctly, and this is an inherent flaw with the game's design.
The more survivors there are, the more you have to worry that whatever you're doing might be costing you the game, the more you have to worry that the one or two survivors you haven't seen in a while are about to finish a gen. By the time one survivor dies, this pressure is immediately alleviated, and keeping track of three survivors at once is a lot easier. By the second death, the killer can breathe a sigh of relief, as even if they lose the last two survivors somehow, it's still at least a "tie" - and pressuring two people at once, regardless of the map or what items and perks they bring, is a cakewalk if you know what you're doing.
It's very difficult to balance an asymmetrical multiplayer game of course, but it often feels like four survivors exhude more pressure over the killer than the killer does on them, especially knowing that any strong play against one of them could be denied by a second chance perk. With three survivors left, it can either feel more balanced or in the killer's favour, depending on how good the team is + coordination + comms. With two survivors left, the killer is definitely at an advantage regardless of the individual survivors' skill level.
This is exactly why doing well as a killer can feel so rewarding, especially when you don't have to resort to tunneling and the like. Outsmarting and outplaying four different people at once, despite all of their second chances and coordination and everything they had going for them, is exactly why I main killer. But I'd rather not resort to picking one person out to kill off at 4 gens remaining in every match just to get consistent results. It feels cheap, and it doesn't feel like it's helping me improve at all.
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@Viskod said:
Campers don't give a ######### about BP to begin with so I don't think penalties would matter.
This is true, but generally, people who want to play like a total jerk for their own amusement will do so regardless of how they get punished. After all, it's an unviable strategy, will almost always lose you the match, but people still do it because they get a kick out of it.
It's difficult to think of a solution that discourages camping without punishing killers who happen to be nearby during an unhooking because they chased a survivor there or were busy using pop on a gen and someone went for an immediate unhook, you know?
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Speaking as a killer main myself, I agree that some changes need to be made to lessen tunneling and camping, but the devs would have to be very careful with how they implement it. Survivors have so many second chances as is, giving them even more/making existing second chances stronger would skew the game a little too heavily in the side of survivors, especially when they're coordinated.
I wouldn't agree with Borrowed Time being basekit in its current form - something like 5 seconds of i-frames after being unhooked sounds good. That's enough time to make a bit of distance, and then they can use dead hard/some other exhaustion perk to make more distance, resulting in another chase as opposed to a near instant down after being unhooked. Borrowed Time would then give endurance after those i-frames, but preferably not for too long that we end up with pre-nerf Borrowed Time.
Something like Decisive Strike should not be basekit. It's a good anti-tunneling tool for sure, but having to slug someone for a full minute or just leave them alone entirely is not a great choice when people with Decisive Strike will often bodyblock for their teammates even when injured because they know they can stun the killer, and that stun can lead into a chain flashlight/flashbang stun, etc. Having something that can potentially waste so much of the killer's time be basekit instead of a perk would be too powerful and would be used and abused to its limits in no time at all, especially because they would then have room in their perks for more ways to chain stun killers or more second chances or straight up just more ways to BM. And god forbid we end up with pre-nerf Decisive Strike again in the current meta.
As for camping, giving out higher bp penalties to the killer for camping is all I can really think of at the moment. Camping is an ineffective strategy as is, because if you camp one person on hook, everyone else will heal and get gens done and get out of the trial ASAP. It's a strategy only employed by those who are bad at general killer gameplay to get even a single kill, or by most killers of all skill levels during the endgame collapse when you're trying to ensure a kill. But to be fair, during endgame collapse, anything goes for both sides.
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It's worth noting that just because a killer downs you a second time without downing someone else, or chases you for a bit longer than someone else, etc., it's not necessarily because they're trying to tunnel.
Sometimes you're just the weak link of your group. Maybe you're less experienced or haven't practiced looping as much, or maybe you don't know how to deal with certain killers effectively, or maybe you're just having a rough day and aren't playing your best. And that's fine. But if you're an easy target and the killer isn't currently dealing with other survivors or needs to drop a chase that will go on forever, you can't blame them for going after the weak link.
Sometimes you just keep getting found when you're injured and your teammates are playing super safe and won't stop running to the nearest strong loop while ineffectually t-bagging to try to grab the killer's attention. Sometimes you're playing too bold because you have a bunch of second chance perks, or are playing too risky to try to get one over on the killer. Sometimes killers come back to recent unhooks to try to find the person unhooking (i.e. with Make Your Choice) but only find you instead.
If you're in a position where you're an easy target or a free hit while your teammates are not, the killer would be throwing to not at least take a hit. Very friendly killers or ones that are trying to be relaxed and casual will probably either slug you and let your teammate pick you up or leave you be entirely, but for anyone who's trying to pip up or generally playing to win, a free hit is a free hit, and a free hook is a free hook.
I'd say it should only be classified as "tunneling" when the killer is going out of their way to ignore your teammates and pressuring gens to keep finding you to get you out of the game ASAP, and there are 3 or 4 of you remaining. If the killer downs you not too long after you've been unhooked, it's not necessarily because they're trying to do this, but could be that you made a mistake and/or made yourself too appealing of a target. Tunneling and camping are so vaguely defined by the overall community that I've even been accused of "tunneling and camping" in 12 hook merciless killer games. I've been accused of "tunneling and camping" while playing friendly and letting everyone go at the end. There are just people out there who need something to complain about, so they'll accuse you of tunneling and/or camping regardless of how you actually played in the match, because the terms are so poorly defined that they could mean anything.
TLDR because I need to stop writing essays; tunneling and camping, while they are legitimate issues, need to be better defined by the community and both terms should stop being used to describe everything a killer does if people want these issues to be taken seriously.
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@RequiemLestat said:
@QueenSaccharine I can't F all about Survivor mains as the experience HAS to be a thousand times worse for a woman. Anything a woman does online in fact gets this treatment.
I'm nowhere near a Christian, but I do follow do unto others.... I would despise it if a killer camped me out, or tunneled me at the start of the match. So I don't do it as a killer. I refuse to add to the feedback loop. All others just saying start playing unfair because they do. It doesn't solve anything. Just puts me as bad as them and continuing the cycle. Besides I have gotten ALOT of 4Ks playing the way I do. But get Seal Team Swf and you've no chance as a fair killer.
If you'd rather not "play unfair" then that's understandable, play how you want to play, but regardless, it's important to remember one thing; if you can figure out early on or from looking at the lobby that you're going up against a swf, you need to change up your strategy. Swf players, regardless of skill level, play differently from solos almost every time.
Because they're on comms and feeding information to each other, you need to try your best to be unpredictable and catch them off-guard. Go for mindgames, but be sure to change them up often. If one survivor figures out one of your perks, then all four of them know it. You can also use this to deliberately feed misinformation to the team, but this can be difficult and situational.
Swfs are also incredibly altruistic and your best chance of getting one over on them is taking advantage of this. I'm not saying "camp hooks and down anyone who dares try to save", but maybe go after the person doing the unhooking, or try to interrupt their healing, things like that. Solo queue players often have a mentality of "it's either me or my teammate dying and I don't care THAT much about my teammate" and will only unhook if it's super safe/they have borrowed time, whereas swfs will desperately try to turn every single match into a 4 man escape.
Expect borrowed time on at least two, if not all of the survivors, when they're playing swf. If a recently unhooked person is trying to bodyblock for their teammate, they likely have endurance from BT. Decisive strike is also very common and if you see them go into a locker shortly after being unhooked, they're likely trying to bait you into getting hit with decisive strike or maybe even head on (sometimes both).
The key to victory as killer is making sure nobody's doing gens, or at least that as few people as possible are doing gens. When survivors aren't doing gens, no matter how many of them are left, you're in a very strong or outright winning position. Keep them injured so they have to keep healing, maybe run hex perks so they have to waste time finding and cleansing them, constantly chase multiple survivors and don't let individual chases take too long, don't be afraid to drop chase if it's going to take more than roughly 15 seconds to get something out of a survivor (hit, down, pallet, etc.)
I've ranted a lot here but honestly there's so much more that could help you against swfs and just overall killer gameplay. There are plenty of helpful guides on youtube, or you can watch gameplay of and take notes from accomplished killer mains (they often commentate their own gameplay which helps a lot) and try to apply those notes to your own gameplay.
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Honestly, a lot of survivor mains are just straight up disgusting.
The amount of times someone has t-bagged and flashlight clicked throughout the whole game only to then flip it around to "ggwp, you're so cute haha" in the endgame lobby is abhorrent. I once caught a swf cheating, and when I called them out on it, one of them said they had recorded a video of the match and would be willing to send it to me as evidence for a ticket. I agreed to add them on steam and discord, but it turns out he was lying and just wanted to flirt with me, told me I should become a survivor main because "the game is sooo survivor sided" (then why bother cheating?) and tried to convince me to play swf with him.
The moment people click on my steam in the postgame and see that I'm a woman they immediately become super ######### creepy. It's for this exact reason I completely ignore the survivor rulebook for killers. If I need to tunnel someone out early to secure a win, I will. If it's endgame collapse and I need to camp to secure my last kill, I will. And I hate playing survivor now, honestly. Only ever do it for challenges/dailies/bp. I have very little respect for the average swf players.
Obviously, there are plenty of chill survivor players out there. If people are playing relaxed, doing silly stuff to amuse themselves and/or the killer, they walk up to me and drop their item in surrender, etc., then yeah, I'll be merciful, play friendly and give hatch. It's fun to play nice with people who want to play nice in return. Hell, sometimes the other side are super strong, possibly competitive swfs that kick my ass and show me I have a lot still to learn, but don't bm or act creepy in the postgame chat. But matches like that are steadily becoming the rarity compared to obnoxious flashlight spammers and t-baggers.
Don't feel bad for playing to win. Don't feel bad for using whatever means necessary to win. Because chances are, the other side would be much, much worse, given the opportunity.