Judgment powercreeping Pyramid Head?
I’m someone who plays different killers and I noticed how similar the judgment and pyramid head are.
in comparison:
Basically:
Judgement is 4.4 m/s
PH is 4.6 m/s
The judgment has a beam thats hard to control close range but can hit anywhere on the map and inflict heresy and damages
PH has a 10 meters range attack that goes through walls and can hit multiple survivors
Judgment can send heresy survivors into the exile and other survs have to free them via these statues on the map
PH can send torment effected survivors to cages wich spawn on the map
Ph has a trail that inflicts torment when survivors step on them
Heresy slowly gets removed over time after performing the action on the statue (and also gives old ruin skill checks on generators when having it)
Torment gets removed from getting out of a cage or rescue a caged survivor
I’m not a PH main, I sometimes play him (playing like half the roster) but this seems like a big gap between two similar killers. Judgment might be slower but her power has unlimited range and inflicts heresy while Ph torment only triggers with survivors walking over the paths he sets. Judgment can play games without hooks and survivors have to do something against heresy while PH cages are sometimes just there and torment does nothing (besides leaving a little trial behind infected survivors). Is this really fair for PH?
I mean Judgment is slower and her power is way harder to use but the potential is way higher.
In my opinion: Judgment is fine as it is but PH could use some changes.
I think PHs range attack is fine, it’s easier to use with limited range.
What I think could get some changes are the trails and the torment effect.
Maybe they could make it that PHs range attack inflicts the effect? They could make the trail last infinitely (since it’s a limited resource and the latest trails disappear when making more than the limit)? Or that torment actually does something while it’s on survivors?
(Would also be funny if the toxic punishing mechanic from judgment would also be implemented for ph but inflicted torment in his case since both killers punish survivors)
I would like to hear some suggestions and opinions from PH mains.
Comments
I have a lot of hours on PH and about 10 hours on Judgment
PH is significantly stronger than Judgment in chase, as it is incredibly hard to dodge a good PH. Judgment has stronger map pressure. That's about the only differences I notice, would be nice if they made torment on power hit a thing.
Pyramid Head has already been powercrept by Dracula and with PH's last rework he just fell down to the B tier, hard.
Aside having similar Exile/Cage mechanic I cannot say they overlap that much in terms of core power. PH is a zoning mid-range killer and Judgement is pure range killer, in contrast to PH vs Dracula's hellfire comparisons.
One being better than other isn't an issue considering how different they are, still, some buffs to PH would be welcome.
Yeah kinda sucks how they took 3 of the best chase powers in the game, slightly nerfed them and put them on a killer.
PH kinda lost his relevance once he couldn't tunnel with impunity. he used to consistently snipe death hook survivors off cages and instantly kill them.
I wouldn't say it's worse. Basicly it's on par with Pyramid Head's projectile. Rn Hellfire has about the same zoning potential if not better since Dracula isn't so restricted while moving with hellfire. Pyramid Head can shoot through walls but with how good survivors simply hold W whenever they are pinched in the loop, it's not some massive upside.
I'm not a PH player but after playing Judgment makes me wonder why PH don't have Torment basekit on M2. Having to force a survivor to run into the razors to get your secondary power feels silly, specially now that PH Cages have basekit BT and the tunnel potential is far less than it was years ago.
This is absolutely crazy. We power creep a killer with a new one and the solution is not to stop the powercreeping, but to INCREASE the power creeping? When does it end? I agree that p-head is massively outclassed by judgement, but its not because he's bad, no one thought he was bad until judgement was released. It's because judgement is quite clearly OP. When do we decide to stop permanently buffing and powercreeping killers? Because unlike killer, there is no powercreeping going on in the survivor side, so at some point a reckoning will come and killer ques will continue to get even worse than they already are.
Because when he used to have this on the ptb there was a consensus that it was far too strong for tunneling and applying pressure. Now we've decided its fine for judgement because 'reasons'?
As people usually completely overreact to any PTB change. If i remember correctly, in the PH PTB his cages didn't have any form of anti-tunnel, as they do now. Even if he want he wouldn't be able to tunnel as hard as people said.
Its fine for Judgment because she is a low mobility killer who lose access to part of the killer meta in trade of being empowered - negating part of the survivor meta perks with it. She would be much worse if wasn't for exile, needing another form of slowdown/chase power as secondary.
So if you don't have hyper mobility your killer is never good? What rubbish mobility is only ONE tool of many to determine a killers strength. Nurse doesn't have good longitudinal map mobility, infact a trapper can get from one side of the map to the other faster than a nurse.
It’s not what he said, he just said judgment has her exile and beam but has no movement ability and is 4.4 m/s, making the killer really on the players skill and power use. Using the exile to negate surv perks also comes with a trade of where you can’t use any hook perks like pop, pain res ect. Judgment should be looked over the next weeks but crying immediately isn’t the solution.
since then PH has lost his ability to hard tunnel with impunity. PH could just reliably camp a cage with an attack ready and frame perfect snipe the unhook and insta kill
He can still tunnel pretty bloody easily, you just have to hit through a 10 second bt. Still no DS or anything.
It's not as if people decided this killer was weak when he lost that ability.
Yeah so your saying that it doesn't matter how op someone’s power is, as long as they don't have mobility they are balanced and skilful.
Judgement doesn't just need to be "looked at", It needs to be removed. It doesn't belong in dbd and feels nothign like dbd. It feels like a PvE game as killer and as survivor you're playing dodgeball on a timer knowing that you will just get hit no matter what you can do.
Stop crying and learn playing against it. In my survivor matches against Judgment, it was pretty fun dodging the ability. And i didn’t get snipped one time on a gen because in comparison Ro streamers I don’t have a chat to look at and I actually use my eyes and ears. It’s always the same, Killer comes out, is strong, survivors who are to lazy to learn counterplay cry for nerfs.
„Yeah so your saying that it doesn't matter how op someone’s power is, as long as they don't have mobility they are balanced and skilful.“
I never said that I just said that judgment has its up and downsides
Imagine if i said "stop crying and learn to play agaimst it" about old ds, old dh, old circle of healing, sprint burst etc. How would you feel?
Everykiller in history has has up and down sides??? No ones debating it they are debating that its unfun, unfair and insanely overpowered. Nurse has plsnty of downsides does that mean she's not good then?
im not the one who is crying and not bringing good points though
Care to respond to a single thing I said?
You havn't told me why ANYTHING I've said is wrong? Infact you're just proving my point that the people defending judgement's design don't even know what they are defending.
“Imagine if i said "stop crying and learn to play agaimst it" about old ds, old dh, old circle of healing, sprint burst etc. How would you feel?“
Crying about old perks that had no counterplay at all isn’t the same as Judgment who has counterplay by reacting and using your eyes and ears. Judgment isn’t a free win if you pick her while old dh was „press e for free distance“ for example.
“Everykiller in history has has up and down sides??? No ones debating it they are debating that its unfun, unfair and insanely overpowered. Nurse has plsnty of downsides does that mean she's not good then?“
Yeah every killer has up and downsides, it’s just that judgments strength is more justified because it’s harder to learn properly and has no mobility and is slower than most killers. Nurse has only one downside wich is her speed but the massive upside of decent mobility and ignoring all loops and turning the game into a different one when she is in the trial.
“Infact you're just proving my point that the people defending judgement's design don't even know what they are defending.“
I actually proved you are wrong in an earlier response where I said that in my survivor experience against judgment all I need to do was react, use my eyes and ears and that I had fun facing it. And no i didn’t played against baby judgments, the ones I faced were decent to good and knew what they were doing.
If you want to cry about the new killer who’s counterplay isn’t described in 3 words like „dodge the axe“ then make your own post since this is about Judgment and Pyramid in comparison.
But that's just your opinion on the perks and the judgement. What if from my perspective and others these perks have counterplay by using game knowledge and game sense but the judgement has no killer? The point is you are asserting things without proof based on your own pre-conceptions.
To your next point:
A: Judgement is not hard. Why are people stomping on this killer within its first week of release if it's hard? And people already thinkk it's S tier? You are confusing weird and different to play with "hard to play". Blight is undeniably hard to play, and it took people months, if not YEARS to find his true potential and realise he was an S tier killer.
B: Once again you are saying that if a killer has no mobility then it's fair game to make the rest of their power as strong as you want, because you think that mobility is the only thing that matters or the most important thing (not true). Nurse has horrendous horizontal map mobility, slower than a trapper. Does that mean she's not the best killer in the game? (or maybe second best now).
So in your few games you've played against this killer against people who clearly don't know what they are doing on it based on your description, since they let you just react to all of their attacks, you've decided this killer is thus fair? Okay I had a few fun and fair games against PTB twins it's 100% balanced then and we should add that back to the game. Come demonstrate this fun, fair and reliable counterplay you are talking about in a custom against MY judgement, see how you like that?
Ah yes just look at the ability and dodge it. That's NOT sufficient evidence of fun, fair gameplay and counter play. I'll use the PTB twins example again, just dodge the victor attack that's the counter play, therefore the ptb twins is balanced.
A: Judgment is Defenetly a killer that is hard to master. Learning any killer is way harder than learning survivor.
B: I never said by definition that a killer with no mobility has right to infinite power. Like if they make a killer that walks 0.5 /s but hooks all survivors via a button press isn’t fair. You are just twisting my words to make them fit in your world.
And comparing this killer to ptb twins is absolutely hilarious because victor is way easier to hit with than that beam. And accusing the judgments I faced fo not knowing what they where doing is absolutely disgusting since they were actual good players who knew how to aim. I died in most of them but i didn’t got hit on generators because I use my eyes and ears, and I dodged lost of beams in chase.
„Come demonstrate this fun, fair and reliable counterplay you are talking about in a custom against MY judgement, see how you like that?“
No thanks I have better things to do than waste my time with a random crying guy who thinks that old dh apparently had counterplay but a killer with a well telegraphed and sound power has not.
„Ah yes just look at the ability and dodge it. That's NOT sufficient evidence of fun, fair gameplay and counter play.“
Well that would also count for: Huntress, Deathslinger, Trickster, Sprintrap, Houndmaster, Blight, Nurse, when I think about it almost every killer. Dodging blight rushes, huntress hatches, doctors shocks or even a popular killer like weskers dashes (dodging killer powers) is main part of the game so you are saying that all killers are not fair and fun.
And using ptb twins as example is unviable since this never came live, judgment did for good reasons.
Hold up now we are FINALLY getting somewhere in this conversation. You've just said that PTB twins is not the save as judgement as judgement is easier to dodge than twins. Okay so according to you there IS a limit as to how powerful you can make a ranged projectile and the ability to dodge it design wise. So why is judgements fair but not twins? Any reasons other than "It feels fairer because I played a couple games and it seemed good!"?.
Okay then how is anyone meant to take you seriously. Your entire argument is that "I was able to dodge the power when I played against a couple of these killers?". But when I played against ptb twins I was able to dodge the power as well! So what's the difference??
You can't even prove it at all because you won't custom, you won't show me video evidence, you won't do anything to back up your claims. Typical forums chatter, someone who's quite clearly inexperienced at the game and doesn't understand how dbd works and how it's balanced, using their own anecdotal experience in low mmr to justify a killer they have no clue how to play at a high level.
To your last point, so blight and nurse's counterplay is dodging the rushes and blinks? Why did these killers get nerfed then? According to you they already have enough counterplay because you can "see and dodge" the ability? Such a primitive understanding of game balance, it's why this game's gone to #########.
Judgment is fine because her projectile is dodgeble while the ptb twins was unavoidable. And if the judgment player predicts your movements and hits you then they deserved to hit you. Chases are meant to be lost eventually. And me saying I had no problems dodging it 70% of the time because I know how the killer works and I have experience in this game while you say it has no counterplay like day one survivor.
I’m not taking you seriously because you compare something that is live, out for a week to something that was just in a ptb and declared as a disaster.
And why should I go custom and waste my time with a random?
And sure I’m inexperienced with 4K hours who plays 60% killer and 40% survivor and playing for now 6 years.
And you have no proof that judgment is broken yourself.
„To your last point, so blight and nurse's counterplay is dodging the rushes and blinks? Why did these killers get nerfed then? According to you they already have enough counterplay because you can "see and dodge" the ability? Such a primitive understanding of game balance, it's why this game's gone to #########“
Using only the top 2 killers as example shows your manipulative and world twisting side. What about huntress, her gameplay is look at where she aims and dodge the axe, she is unfun and unfair by your definition. So does huntress need a nerf, according to your logic yes.
I never said judgment isn’t strong, I just said that she is fine as she is now. If you want serious nerfs for it and some other high tiers you need to nerf survivors in general because this game is currently survivor sided, and thats a fact.
But keep arguing, I find it really funny how baby’s whine when the other side gets something.
Now why is judgements projectile dodgable but victor's isn't? What's the difference there? Why are some projectiles dodgable and some not? I'm glad we are establishing that projectiles are not inherently dodgable in nature.
Your huntress point is very interesting. This is what I'm trying to get you to understand this whole conversation which is rather basic, but you seem to be missing. NOT ALL PROJECTILES ARE THE SAME. It's not by my logic that huntress needs a nerf, it's by YOUR logic that all projectiles are the same.
Quite clearly we can see in any video game, but dbd as well that every projectile is different. Otherwise, we'd just have one projectile killer and that'd be the end of the day. So we know every projectile is different, and based on our previous understand that victor's projectile is not dodgable, that some projectiles are not dodgable.
So now we come to step 2 in basic game design, what makes a projectile fair, fun, and counterable/dodgable?
Oh also i have plenty of proof that judgement is broken but I need to teach you what proof is first apparently.
Judgment beam: Aim, drag around, fire means it has reaction time and can’t just be send to a survivor in a loop in front of you instantly.
Victor: Runs up to you, looks and hits means victor is way easier to hit but can only take a single health state every pounce on a healthy survivor (and can be kicked and destroyed via pallets)
Judgments beam can be reacted to early, victor has his own unique counterplay with pallets and lockers,.
„Ah yes just look at the ability and dodge it. That's NOT sufficient evidence of fun, fair gameplay and counter play.“
And what I said was that your logic is basically that. So in your world huntress needs a nerf because you need to look at 90% of killers and react to them using their power. Judgment has counterplay, survivors are just to lazy to learn it.
If it’s unfun for you or you dislike the killers power than thats not a problem with the killer.
It’s like with Krasue where everybody cried about her until she got nerfed and now I see her every time a meteor lands in my backyard.
Like I said nerf survivor in general, not perks, general than I’m fine with nerfing high tiers like judgment ect.
And if you have so much proof than make your own post instead of arguing in a post that is about a completely different topic, that you do that is just proof of your entitlement.
So judgements projectile is not as strong as victors/balanced because you need to aim and drag it, and it has a reaction time? What do you mean by a reaction time? And also it can be sent to a survivor in front of you so gonna ignore that part. Do you not need to aim victors power? What's the difference? I'm asking because I want to establish a set of principles regarding ranged projectiles.
Nice once again you've ignored literally everything else I said. Can we first agree that every projectile killer is different? That some projectiles are stronger than others?
Then I asked what's the criteria for making a projectile balanced, fun and fair in your opinion?
“Nice once again you've ignored literally everything else I said.“
I actually answered your points and looked at your text when answering.
„Can we first agree that every projectile killer is different? That some projectiles are stronger than others?“
I never said this isn’t the case. Sure judgments beams is stronger than a huntress hatchet but it is way harder to aim because it doesn’t have an immediate hitbox and it gives the survivor more time to react to it in a chase.
„What do you mean by a reaction time? And also it can be sent to a survivor in front of you so gonna ignore that part.“
I mean the survivor gets notifications that judgment uses it via sounds and animations. And you can only hit a survivor in front of by dragging the beam somewhere else and the adjusting the direction. It’s not „raise and throw and it hits anyone it passes“ since it hasn’t an active hitbox immediately.
„Then I asked what's the criteria for making a projectile balanced, fun and fair in your opinion?“
Basically the beam looks and sounds good, survivors in chase or on gen can react to it and you can try to predict what the other side does wich creates fun and interactive mindgames. Judgements beam does all that for me and is very unique.