Recall of PTB and tunneling issue
CW: really long text.
Hello.
I just want to try to explain here what concerned me this whole month in the most casual (and maybe emotional) way. This post is going to be very long, and considering English isn’t my native language, I have to try a lot to keep this post long yet simple, constructive yet subjective, and emotional yet not offensive at the same time. I would be grateful to everyone who will take it into account and will provide their further feedback!
PTB and their main issue
- Poor technical implementation - the whole new mechanic with introducing zero collision caused many bugs related to killer power (like Legion, Pyramidhead, Ghostface, Twins, Cenobite). Antislug scale were also a lil broken, because even situations where killer didn't slug (survivor just used plot twist) were contributing to build the scale up.
- Base kits from already existing mechanics without proper consideration
- BBQ
Basically, we killed the original version and got the nerfed one in the base kit. Considering it always was counterable as well, I find this bonus extremely insignificant and not worthy to use. The main use of this perk on actual good players never were mindless chase finder. The main reason while this perk were viable on majority of killers is possibility for actual map control and understanding of each position.
- Pop
25% of current progression is viable on killers with high mobility only, and alongside further nerfs of other meta perks, it was insufficient. Again, because of current progression. In PTB it was simply impossible to achieve same level of gen regression, yet anti-system changes were supposed to make trial longer. Yet it’s straightforward were impossible, if survivors actually worked on objective.
- Haste
I never found it fair when one side just mindlessly stacked haste only to make life easier, getting rid of any necessity in mind gaming and playing tiles using their sources, at the same time denying skill from other roles. You didn’t consider how actually problematic it looks on Springtrap, Spirit, and Clown. We should stop contributing to the already sensitive status system, making it even worse or abusable on specific killers. Moreover, for killers who actually needed it, haste would never be enough compared to actual mobility. And they won’t stack base kit with other perks - because usually their weakness hides in map pressure and chase at the same time, so they have to use slowdown or more viable chase perks that works most of the time.
This ptb changes give a clear message here - on really low level of play games indeed would like to finish as tie more. On above mid? This is definitely would be something worse than any solo Q experience. Why?
We got multiple nerfs considering 25% of current progression might be strong, but forgot to do the same for the survivor. Still keeping second chances perks, or buffing already extremely beneficial base kits. If we were actually up to balance, I thought devs will reduce half of numbers on gen rush perks and removed any second chances completely. Yet… devs decided to rework the same otr in a way that buffs base kit? Just… why? We also had other problems:
- No HUD info deprived the killer of any actual map control (alongside the buff of reassurance). As well as you directly encourage players to camp or run specific perks only to have base info that other role were already provided for free.
- No collisions, prolonged haste (buffed babysitter), OTR provided a whole weapon as your teammate that can freely bodyblock, mess with other players' hitboxes, or simply deny killer’s power when u still can freely communicate with killers props.
- Complete death of any tracked tools, while unhooked survivors still keep as active members of the team. Killer instinct turns out to be redundant system.
- 6 hooks. I don’t want to even comment this. Just to get know - in games where I played survivor and we indeed deserved our win killer barely had 6 hook stages in endgame. Think for yourself what I'm hinting at.
- Implemented tenacity and buffed unbreakable as a base kit. Uh… I think every tenacity user in effective SFW knows how broken it is. If not… I can’t advise western sources on this theme, but Russian streamers like Meydix and NighFuryo tested it, and it was pretty bad. We had a period of infinite unbreakable; why return to the same mistakes and make it even worse?
Possible “crutch” or actual balancing?
I think the fairest position should stay as it is—the game should have tools to utilize, and you should have the opportunity to use or not to use them. It’s not about what kill rate/escape rate you personally have. It’s not about the streaks people are doing in the media.
We should stop asking for base kits unless it’s related to UI changes, accessibility, and info that will decrease the gap between solo and SWF. Why? If you buff the whole side by numbers, it’s going to lead to game-breaking scenarios and another so-called “emotional rant.” Both experienced survivors and killers were against the recent PTB, in case they took most of their matches seriously and were oriented on the PvP genre rather than abstract comprehension of fun.
So, I tried to write down my personal proposals about QoL. Starting with small steps instead of drastic changes would be a more viable strategy for a long time period. We definitely need to make life of solo better. But if this changes are proposed in a way of some numbers, straight-off bonuses and ignores SFW/variability of killers it would be a lazy decision.
The following proposals consider this system in relation to good RNG existence and equal skill on both sides. An actually working and balanced MMR assumes that people don’t actually struggle in this game on one side more than the other. That both sides encourage playing the game seriously or in the frame of the proposed (PvP) genre. I’m also considering that the game should provide proper UI changes to this system, making it intuitively clear when and how it’s working for both sides.
- 10 sec of elusive endurance and haste after unhooking stays as it is and cancels only in the endgame. Elusive is lost as soon as you act (pallet drop, killer prop interaction, and flashlight usage should be included). I strongly recommend keeping it about cancelling in the endgame because this part has a shorter duration of the whole game sequence, and if a survivor gets downed there, it means they are getting downed. It’s not about tunneling anymore, and the only incentives you get in the endgame should be provided by how you played the game as a whole + optional perks. I also look at this from the perspective of a survivor who has suffered many times in the endgame, because blindly counting on a free human shield in the form of a wounded teammate always led to senseless and even deadly altruism. Players should not have a "tricky tool" that may mislead the team to unsafe decisions. IMO.
- If a survivor is unhooked and the killer initiates a chase, they get the adrenaline rush effect for the next minute:
About the Adrenaline Rush Effect:
- After taking a hit and enduring it, you keep haste for up to 3-5 seconds (so, let the survivor who is tunnelled get out of the dead zone). Your scratch marks disappear 50% faster, and you don’t leave pools of blood for 60 seconds. Dead Hard will have huge potential to become an actual anti-tunnel perk on its own. And skill-related. If it was hit straight off the hook, you can gain more distance by getting out of zone or make the role of the saver more preferable for the killer to chase. I don’t personally appreciate this and call it a “crutch,” but if we believe it’s unbelievably hard to endure 1 vs 1 from typical solo queue… here it is.
- Every survivor within a range of 32 m of you can see each other.
- You can see the aura of lockers, windows, and pallets for 60 seconds within a 24 m range. You don’t create noise when fast vaulting objects.
Other effects that also might help solo:
- From the start of the trial, the survivor sees the aura of one random generator. After gen completion, the target changes.
- When a survivor is hooked/slugged, you and your teammates see each other’s aura within the killer’s terror radius.
- When a survivor is injured, everyone sees the aura of the injured within a 16 m range. The injured survivor also sees the aura of their teammates in this range.
- If you have a hook state and are injured, you have a 100% chance to get a brown med-kit on your first chest opening. Sounds unimportant, but it can make a big difference when your solo teammates are busy or deny your healing, forcing unsafe situations. Many inexperienced players also like to open chests, so making them slightly more useful isn’t harmful. I think chests should also introduce a 50% chance of key spawn if one survivor is left in a trial.
- Maps now can “point” at objects and highlight auras by default. You can now highlight up to 3 objects at the same time (hook, generator, chest, exit gates, totems).
- Survivors see the aura of any dropped item until it’s fully depleted.
- Rework of hatch locations: on every map they can spawn only in 3 specific locations (shack, main building, within 24 meters of one of the gates). The hatch closes itself after 60 seconds (to deny camping from the killer or AFK play).
- If you are the only survivor left in a trial, you open gates 100% faster.
- Antislug proposal (it doesn't cancel slug as a way of pressure but makes slugging irrelevant or extremely risky if you are commuting to it as the main playstyle). It also shouldn't harm Twins/Oni with their core design to down survivors over a far distance between each other.
- If you are put in the dying state, you make 50% less noise. You can recover up to 99% progress.
- If another teammate is put down as well, both of you have a 100% bonus to recovering, and you are crawling faster. You can crawl and recover at the same time. After this, you can pick each other up by pressing the ability button on your slugged teammate. Both of you get a 50% speed boost for 3 seconds, and you get the adrenaline rush effect.
- If two survivors are left in a trial and one of them is downed for more than 30 seconds, this survivor can disconnect without penalty AND without losing match progress (the DC will be equal to being killed). It auto-triggers the hatch (no bot replacement).
Comms proposal
This is actually a huge need for Solo. I was thinking about adding something like a special gesture to point at the area of a location you want to show your teammate and a few additional phrases that will be seen close to the survivor HUD, like
“Go there.”
“Avoid this place.”
“Generator”
“Totem”
“Teammate there”
“Exit”
“Help me.”
Pre-lobby perks loadout
I’m against the opinion of people who don’t want to see this feature only because of potential lobby dodging. Maybe it’s the duty of the game not to create perks that encourage dodging? You also have pre-game chat; nothing prevents a player from warning their teammates about specific perks for achievements. I always did it myself numerous times without this feature, so my teammates could either support me or leave if they wanted to focus on winning. As a killer, I don’t mind it either.
- It should help with the main issue—when your teammates draw false conclusions due to not having enough information, making team-oriented builds inefficient.
But if the changes were to turn out to be so disadvantageous, I would suggest an alternative in the form of additional roles that change the character’s HUD icon like in 2 vs 8 and inform others about what role the teammate wants to take on. It also would be nice if each of the class would have some interesting passive effect everyone would be aware of.
Rating
The most controversial take here, but… I had numerous matches in a row where teammates ruined the game for everyone, just wanting their flashlight save. When 3 out of 4 people refuse to do gens, leading to poor time management while the killer just eats sources and hooks stages. The only time I experienced the desire to give up was in matches like this. Not when someone tunneled me. If such people would have a higher probability of playing with players alike, solo queue would breathe easier.
Addressing many posts I witnessed during PTB
Just a hot take here? It’s counterintuitive for the core design of PvP games to force one side to play less aggressively only for the other to catch up (it should stay as an option, however) and “have fun.” Just because you want to make an already casual game even more casual.
Playing a little bit less than 1k, but treating this game kind of seriously (not really, otherwise I played ladder or league), and trying both roles made me feel the average survivor skill floor is lower than the killer one. THAT’S the issue. The majority of survivors are ignoring simple truths—the other role they are going against consist less of such players, and they usually treat the game completely differently. Killers don’t have “funny chat” interaction or a sense of team play to entertain themselves, and the aesthetic of slasher and horror encourages playing to win in this specific role. They don't have the opportunity to “take a rest” on holding M1 interaction with gen, and the constant surround of 4 players, if they are capable of competing, puts them in pretty stressful circumstances, leading to more direct gameplay focused on winning and can lead to an aggressive style. Their perk roster for effectiveness and “funny” builds is 10x more limited and extremely specific to each killer. Mechanics work there as well—due to some variability of powers and requirements to learn it. Skill expressions are way more natural for killers. Survivors? It always was a hidden gem due to how this role was designed, among the chaotic behavior of 4 people. That’s where I found an answer to why it’s worse first for solo survivors. This game created a natural incentive for the killer to try to be as efficient as possible, yet failed to do the same on the survivor side. It’s an unnatural, fleeting moment the majority of players don’t notice. And we have other numerous problems, which are present in every match. Fixing it by limiting other roles isn’t the answer and never will be.
I know that my words above wouldn’t be enough, so here is a more thorough address of popular takes:
“Tunneling is an easy strategy and exploit.”
It is, indeed, easier strategy. Because effective. Why we should discourage to play effective? Because average survivor player didn't learn how to play effective as well? Maybe, to make it harder for killer, instead of providing lazy invincible power, survivors should get better RGN and taught how to counter it? So only survivors who actually progress in game receive bonuses?
People who claim tunneling is easy make it easy for the killer.
The first kill supposed to happen from 2 gen to 1 in actually balanced matches no matter game style your opponent choose and you can secure it by good RNG and effectiveness. If killer use effectiveness, it should be countered by same approach. Not due to someone dying so other members get a free catch-up tool. Because when this tool is desperately needed, it wouldn’t be enough anyway, but in balanced trials where tunnelling worked as well though strategy or desperation attempt of comeback, it switches the game on adaptability difficulty for one role, ignoring previous decisions of the other role and their influence, leading to unexpected fine. I will never understand why games should punish people for logically effective strategies only because it affects their opponents in a bad way. So I indeed will not understand why some people in community claim gen rush/tunnel should be punished by system, and not as responsive play. Game should encourage effectiveness only, as well as encourage heavy counterplay. Not creating it itself
If you don’t tunnel/slug/hold 3 gen/proxy camps, you’ll never win the game in macro and efficiency against a team actually equal to your skills, so you have to stomp 99% of the lobbies by chases. This is straightforward impossible as expecting solo be aware of what of potential 160 perks their teammates have for loadout.
People in this community have a tendency to blame in a skill issue on the part that decided to combine their chase potential with map economy, which is actually showing a deeper understanding of gameplay. It can’t be a skill issue when players commit to an effective strat as a way to put pressure. It’s a skill issue when you fail doing it or can’t show any resistance.
Game doesn't learn survivors how to deal with actual pressure. Split up, gen efficiency — something so small and not requires comp level of understanding the game, yet people fail. Why? Game never actually punished people with high level of selfishness on the side where it is supposed to be a team play, and moreover, put this punishment on killer/other survivors usually. And until we’ll move from escape and kill rate to actually strict win conditions that focus on 1 vs 4 factor, where such players will forever stay in low tab, nothing will change. My teammate played bad? We’ll all lose MMR then. And I have to deal with more of such teams in solo, stucking in same pattern as some kind of nightmare. Even me can threw up matches, but somehow game doesn't do anything to encourage player to fix it.
Maybe it's not fun, but with the contribution of many second-chance perks, this game is indeed about resource management. Killers understood this a long time ago, because the specificity of being alone on the game usually forces you to manage time. For survivors this game, unfortunately, doesn’t have clear signs, while the media is over-obsessed with chases.
Tunneling isn’t some “exploit”—at least because it has actual counterplay, at max because it’s a characteristic trait in every asymmetric game. BHVR already gave us a lot of extremely busted tools that limits tunneling, but apparently failed to teach how to use it. Watching gameplay years ago when everyone one knew about “tapping” the hook for save rescue and comparing it to nowadays, more of such changes just leads to deteriorating skills on survivor side. People forgot everything they knew cause received another base kit they can rely on.
“But stats claim the survivor role is underpowered, so it requires incentives for catching up.”
Do we really wanna to rely on stats where…
- They consider matches where the killer/survivor farms
- They consider games where a person disconnected and it gave an evident advantage to the killer.
- Games where survivors or specific one just gave up for no reason or played typical “bully squad” style, where instead of completing main objectives, it was a 20-minute match of interaction with the killer
- Games where teammates are feeding/cooping with the killer
For numerous people on this forum, with all my respect, do you really want to use official stats as an argument when Sadako, arguably one of the weakest killers in the game, has a busted kill rate in general due to how people simply don’t know anything about counterplay because the design of this game didn’t provide it?
Stats will turn out to be viable when this game will have clear win conditions. And when people who play for fun and who play for challenge will be separated.
Tribalism and why it exist
Tunneling never was a mechanic with the possibility to tweak numbers introduced by devs. It has always been an approach to the game from a player and lives in the nature of every asymmetric game. It's pointless to fight with this factor along with the SFW one. It's pointless to shame people for playing like this, because it's a deal of their view on the game.
The uniqueness of killer ability already encourages a learning curve (besides the dash slop epidemic or recent decrease of actually complicated mechanics), but a complete generic approach to perks and, therefore, survivors creates an invisible barrier for the other group. I wouldn’t like to call it a mass skill issue, because I’m playing survivor myself. But the way it was designed heavily implies this. Micro limited, macro neglected. And we planning to push it further with generic dash/teleport slop, auto hits/grab scan, primitive props, repetitive perks, limitation of approaches. Can I receive answer why? Anyone above 1k hours will be just tired from playing games where u supposed to play PvP, but it turns out u fight with the system. One side is indeed “underpowered”. Because game didn’t show the value of time and resources. And it can falsely mislead to the situation where “it’s my opponent and not my problem”.
Survivors need to have incentives. But not free one. As well as some Myers unviable without a tombstone, survivors have to be glued with their meta. But then why are we trying to rework killers as a first response to this problem, but with survivors suddenly having to point fingers on the other side and tell them they are the problem? I don't get such logic.
“The game is indulging killer players.”
I would like to say specific killers are just devs’ favorites, or they simply don’t know what to do with their powers, probably limited by their technical capabilities. The way BHVR quickly responded to the fog vials and PTB issue can be explained as it is—they’ll prefer for one person to be waiting to matchmake rather than 4, as well as they’ll prefer to quickly react to the “emotional rant” of the minority, which keeps the game playable. This changes also caused many bugs in technical terms. Too much I want to say.
The last released meta on survivors that works as slowdow was shoulder the burden. No rework/nerfs, even when it’s still pretty buggy. Last released meta slowdown on killers? Artist’s scourge hook, that went through 3 nerfs and one “buff” that was motivated by horrible bug. And were almost nerfed to the ground on PTB. The Ghoul/Clown existence is a consequence of PTB not working as actual testing system and complete neglect of feedback, where many killer players weren’t denying their problematic gameplay and asked for not pushing it to the live. So, where is actually that “indulging to the role”? Attention? Absolutely, but not indulging.
So, about true balancing.
I have never seen positions from players who seek “fun” or balance factor statements like “Let’s remove both tunneling and the SFW factor.” No tunneling, but no way to deny killer pressure from chases by stun saves, flashlights, sabos, and second chances as well, so killers won’t feel they need to tunnel”
Such people were advocating for a mass nerf of slowdown, like genuinely believing 25% of current progression is indeed a strong tool and requires the death of everything else viable in the game. But for survivors? You were able to stack everything with the new system, overbuffing yourself on the level of some nurse. No one pointed it out when told about number tweaks. So, indeed—if they are going to tell me they are up to balance, I won’t believe it. Not anymore.
This game have to balance around BOTH average and top players. And of course it’s gonna be hard. Especially when u want to remove any encouragement for playing better and handling them on the most primitive way, at the same time putting whole responsibility on other role to deal with consequences of this decision.
Comments
Gosh, what? Now we again reinventing words.
Where u see guarantee of the win? It’s an attempt of securing, nothing about guarantee until u don’t see some Spirit.
English literally foreign language for me yet it seem I know meaning of some words even better.
This game is literally in PvP genre. Your decisions SUPPOSED to be risky if your opponent able to provide counterplay. Why we even discuss it.
I don’t. It’s not my issue this game don’t teach how to counter tunneling and majority of players struggling with it despite having perk that literally gives a minute of endurance or can take a hook stage from your teammate. Survivors already overbuffed and high level play shows it, but high neglecting of solo, problematic killer powers and people like you have a tendencyof creating false image. I invested my time to dodge it as survivor player, so I want game more challenging and provide actual competition by skill comparassion rather than blind number buffs and forbid of strategies. So both survivors and killers have to play good, not one side having cheap tool to make it harder for other because u can’t endure direct interaction against opponent. You only advise to make it easy on low level, completely neglect high one, and make everything harder for one side only. Stop treating it as objective opinion when it’s built around of mindless punishments and lasy buffs. This changes now is just suggest taking the problems that kills solo and, instead of thoroughly solving them, shifting everything onto the shoulders of players who play a completely different role. Just because “oh, I hate killer killing too fast”
Voice comms are more unfair to killers than they are to solo q survivors.
And no, we don’t need to compensate solo q just because some other survivors use voice comms.
And… why? It's no better than justifying extreme weakness of some killers by existing S tier ones. Why not trying at least provide some actual interaction between solo beside 2 gestures? U can’t nerf sfw without touching solo, so u can’t get rid of this unfair tool. But why other part should be limited then?
As a killer I don't have fun in winning because team just were limited by lack of communication between them…
There are changes BHVR could make, that would nerf SWFs way more than they would solo q.
For example?
Oh look, it's AI…
Well guess what?
If you actually present it with the situation we're discussing, turns out it agrees that tunnelling can not reasonably be considered risky.
But just as a word of general advice: Don't rely on AI to do the thinking for you, it is brutally unintelligent.
Where's the proof that survivors are 'overbuffed' and that 'high level play shows it'? Because this is just something that keeps getting regurgitated all over the forums without anything to substantiate it.
It's always just 'this is the way I say it is and anyone who deigns to question it, is wrong'.
Quote me.
Quote me.
Quote me.
Seriously, quote me.
Because you've been having a conversation in your head and you're now taking your frustration out on me when I have said NONE of these things. Seriously, you are working off of some kind of grudge you have against me, not this actual conversation or thread.
To remind you, you accused me of:
And I have not said any of these in here. I didn't say you can't balance top level without tunnelling, I didn't tell you to 'git gud', I didn't say it should go 'just because it's my opinion', and I never said I don't care about balancing.
I specifically said that I'm not concerned about the balancing outcome of tunnelling, by which I mean that I don't care whether it's OP or not, I'm concerned about the gameplay impact, not whether or not it's winning too many matches. That's not the same as saying that I don't care about balance at all. If indeed it proves to be too much of a nerf for killers over all, then compensatory buffs would be in order, absolutely. (And need I remind you, there were compensatory buffs included in the PTB, which I've spoken positively of already.)
But just buffing survivors up to be as powerful as tunnelling, thereby making tunnelling not broken overpowered, would not fix the issue I have with it. Which was what you asked of me, personally.
”Maybe, but no compared”.
— Compared to what? To lose? Would person consciously choose constantly losing? Unlikely. Did situation forced him to commit to strategy B? So did situation forced him to choose for getting a result? Yes.
”Compared to” - is not the way to cancel the risk of whole situation.
Relatively risk indeed doesn’t matter. Because u compare. Technically risk will stay no matter of what.
U can’t say risk doesn’t exist at all just because other situation is 100% failure. It This may diminishe the significance of the risk compared to a complete loss. However, people rarely choose to lose if they're competing. Therefore, scenario "A" doesn't exist in principle. No “Strategy A” if u don’t want to lose. It’s only Strategy B with uncertain outcome
You contradict yourself.
But this IS gameplay impact. U can’t ignore stuff, that literally IMPACT.
My post noted the reason of PTB buffs wasn’t enough. Because nerfed 3 perks on base kit + nerfed all optional regression + limitation of HUD info + complete remove of tunneling on a level it makes no sense for gameplay were provided at the same time with buffed gen rush and heal thanks to new perk + 8 base kits for survivor + rework of optional perks that buffs already OP base kit + side bonuses when literally losing for additional % to the repair bonuses. In comparison this “buffs” means nothing, they even don’t compensate anything. No one cares about positives when this “positives” were nerfed compare to optional perks, this optional perks became irrelevant because they also got nerfed, while other side got second chances on top of second chances for doing nothing in the trial but losing.
About quoting:
“Stop treating it as objective opinion when it’s built around of mindless punishments and lasy buffs.
And
“You neglect high play”
So, talking about risks, u were continuously admitting that now - it’s only way to win on level of play when u compete against people who knows how to play this game. U admit that, but u talking this strategy should gone. Alongside with this, u never provided alternative. 3 NERFED base kits from PTB while u removing the only way to get a win - not the buff nor the compensation. U never talked under this thread about actual compensation after removing strategy u find problematic. Not u, not BHVR, not every other person provided meaningful compensation to this. And when people on this forum were talking about making at least nerfed scourge hook as base kit, a lot of people who were talking about “positives” tried to find any excuse to find 12% of remote regression as bad idea that’s not a fair. So, don’t even try to convince me that people like u were actually trying to balance stuff around, the only thing u wanted is tunneling gone and no compensation for it. So the issue isn’t in tunneling being bad in core principle. Tunneling is problematic for you because it’s the strategy people use for win. The win factor is the only thing that actually makes tunneling so unsatisfying for survivors.
Maybe, if your opinion were built around providing actual alternatives of tunneling besides just turning it off - it would be meaningful dialogue. But because the only thing u were accepting is 3 cheap base kits as “positives”, u indeed just want to make it only harder for one side and simple for other.
U can’t reduce tunneling until u’ll provide meaningful alternative of this strategy. And u don’t really wanna, because genuinely believe in tunneling being unbelievably hard to counter even with existence of strong perks or already existing base kits. When u’ll provide meaningful base kit alternative for killers to base kit anti - tunnel, it would be a talk about balance.
What to say, if decisive strike were severely “nerfed” by your opinion, when the only difference in 1 sec of stun and that u can’t use anti tunnel on endgame where tunneling doesn’t affect to so called gameplay and it’s already evident who won.
Tunneling can meaningfully gone only in one case - where this game will stop be 1 vs 4 or survivors will be completely deprived of the right to deny someone down in chase by second chance perks or save from team. Which is straightforward impossible, because u can’t forbid person to take a hit even when u remove collision, ptb proved it. Until survivors can deny hook pressure by gen rush or team play, tunneling would stay as most viable strategy. And because game doesn’t provide other meaningful ways to compete against gen efficiency from good teams, people will continue to commit to it
The term 'risky' is always comparative.
What you are arguing for, with the absolute probabilistic sense of the word 'risk', is pure semantics. It is unusable in any kind of argumentation. You can't defend tunnelling with the claim that it is 'risky' so long as your definition of 'risky' is that it doesn't have a 100% win rate, because even the most overpowered stuff in the game would qualify as being 'risky' with that definition.
Having a perk that just instantly kills one survivor for free upon loading in would be considered 'risky' under your argumentation.
Do you understand?
This discussion isn't going anywhere so long as you're arguing on this concept of the term 'risky'.
No I don't.
Winning or losing barely impact it. You can argue that there's incentives involved with it, but I'm not staring myself blind on what the results screen says at the end of the match, I'm focused on what happens within the match. And in that regard, tunnelling is wrecking gameplay.
You can win against a tunnelling killer and still have a terrible time compared to losing against a killer that doesn't tunnel.
I disagree with those too, but that's irrelevant to our current discussion.
The nerf to regression perks is something BHVR learned from a past mistake. When killers got a basekit action speed buff, they didn't do any compensatory rebalancing to interacting perks.
Plenty of killers have expressed that they feel pigeonholed into taking gen regression. These changes basekit a portion of that gen regression, but if they didn't adjust the gen regression perks, they would stack together to create something oppressive. This is what happened with STBFL, which eventually stacked so high that it made hook rescues virtually impossible.
Stacking the basekit with the regression perk would still see an overall buff, just slightly less. However, if you decide to use something other than regression perks, the basekit buff would make the biggest impact. In this way, BHVR levels the playing field a little bit between the perks that killers complain about being forced to take, and other options. They're boosting the overall power level of all builds, while slightly tempering the boost they give to the specific builds that have been dominating the meta.
This is actually just good design.
You mean the one where you need to land 6 great skill checks while repairing a gen while injured? And then it gets you boosted healing speed for one heal?
I doubt it even competes with Botany. We'll Make It certainly blows it out of the water. And it certainly doesn't do anything to boost gen speeds.
No mention of the survivor basekits being nerfed versions, and the rework of Off the Record ripped off its endurance in its entirety. And unlike with the killer side of things, you can't balance them out. While Pop + Basekit is 15% higher than it used to be, OTR + Basekit is 50 seconds shorter than it used to be.
You're not looking at this level-headed at all.
Yeah, that quote doesn't say what you say it does. Again, you are fighting out some kind of grudge you have with me and you're having an argument with a voice in your head that you attribute to me. But it's nothing I have said.
I have made no such admission. It is a premise you have asserted. I haven't refuted it because I don't need to in order to expose a problem with your argumentation. This assertion of yours conflicts with your other assertion that tunnelling is 'risky'.
I am, in fact, more inclined to believe that tunnelling is risky than that it is the only way to win, but the point is that you can't hold both of these assertions at the same time. They are mutually exclusive.
EITHER
Tunnelling is the only avenue to a win, which makes choosing to employ it not a risky choice at all
OR
Tunnelling is risky, because you risk losing in a situation that you could otherwise win.
The reason I haven't refuted your claim that tunnelling is the only way to win at high level is because reasonably, if you choose to take the position that tunnelling is 'risky', you have to drop the assertion that tunnelling is the only way to win, yourself.
Because this is the point where I actually reject the premise. I don't agree that tunnelling is the only way to win, and I do think that the buffs are impactful and meaningful. These naturally push the game towards more spread pressure, which is the obvious alternative to tunnelling.
Problem is that you are the sole arbiter of what you consider to be meaningful. So if anyone disagrees with you, then they are, to your mind, 'objectively wrong'. At which point any suggestion I make would be inherently shot down because we disagree about the level of imbalance.
After all, anything I could suggest would adhere to your definition of 'risky', and something tells me you wouldn't accept that.
As a reminder, the survivor themselves are also stunned by DS due to the animation lock. That 5 second stun amounted to roughly three seconds of distance, so cutting the stun duration by 1 second is a nerf of 33%.
That's pretty hefty. It's certainly heavier than the proposed nerf to Pop in this patch, and DS didn't have any counterbalancing basekit buffs when it got nerfed back down to stack with.
This assertion is also distinctly untrue.
If, say, the killer got a 50% total gen progress pain res for every unique hook, and hooking a survivor twice in a row would immediately open the exit gates, you haven't done anything to nerf gen rush or team play, but tunnelling most definitely isn't the most viable strategy anymore.
Now, such numbers are obviously extreme and unworkable, but it shows that the premise for the PTB is perfectly workable. You can argue about the balance of it, but to claim that it has absolutely zero chance of succeeding is a fool's position.
You do touch upon something that is interesting though, which is prevalence of hook denial. And on that, I agree that it needs to be toned down. (Not 'second chance perks', those are tunnelling specific, no reason to nerf them) Again, similarly, I don't care about the balance outcome of rampant hook denial, I care about the gameplay aspect of it. It is awful to play against, so I want it gone. However, I also feel like I'm the only one with that opinion since it's never brought up as an issue for killers on its own merit, but always in response to survivor QoL, which is why I don't bother making suggestions with regards to it.
U can manipulate over and over this statement. U still trying to manipulate with “it’s semantic” about risk, while u compare unreliable strat A to reliable strat B, after which put comparison with imaginable perks that god damn it kill whole survivor from the start. Every of your sentence is exaggerate play. Of course when u exaggerating tunneling risk won’t matter for u. Because in proportion instead of 50/50 or 60/40 to tunnel strategy u see 90/10. U yourself fighting with your own grudge, because didn’t have experience of play where tunnel doesn’t secure wins. It’s your own sentiment here fighting with “risk” definition.
It’s not +15% to base actual pop kit. Because it’s current progression. As well as nerfed eruption. U ignore “current”, because it’s convinient. However, the issue of OTR base kit, because alongside with it, u get additional buffs, like no collision, prolonged haste, aura read, free stealth u so craved for. It’s at least 2 perks in one base kit + additional collision buff. Same with antislug. U got overbuffed unbreakable, alongside with nerfing any track tools of slugged survivors with tenacity base kit? Compensation? No compensation. We fool around like base kit is so broken that other perks deserved to be nerfed to the ground.
Survivors don’t have to equip their meta to counter killer play style anymore, but killer still have to. So, gen rush or full chase while killer stuck with same and even nerfed version. So, buffed efficiency is clearly evident, your sentiment tried to deny it because somehow your sentiment see +25% to speed boost, blocked gens, 8 base kits equal to three base kit and side nerfs. The thing u even validate 3 base kits as 8 one AND additional system that decintives valid way of play for win and equal it just shows how u yourself stuck in delusional prejudice.
If u actually genuinely believe such changes are “balanced” - prove me. Send me the video on google disk where u win against survivors on the same level as u in PTB. Survivors good enough to last longer than 10 seconds in chase. Who can compete and know how to split up for efficiency.
The problem, nor you not other people who supported this PTB had such games. Because u either didn’t play it, or were fooled by absence of MMR constantly facing people who didn’t played normally even. On paper u just manipulate with 25% of current progression pop number and play with it like it fair compensation. Which isn't, if u aren’t playing against potatoes.
Do it. Show me the balanced and fair game u had in PTB.
The reason u talk about road life instead of one, two, three just shows how u were poorly acknowledged with PTB actually. Stacking this with hyperfocus or aitodidact were giving u unbelievable boost to both heal and gen efficiency. New exhaustion perk buffed vigil and lightweight, made this combos new meta for sprint and stealth play. And because survivors weren't afraid of tunnel/slug, the build on PTB were on exploitable level without killer being able to even counter it.
You didn't understand a thing I wrote, did you?
Do you understand the concept of a hypothetical?
Pop Goes the Weasel is also current progression. And it has been for over three years now.
Why don't you prove that they were unbalanced?
Why is it the standard on these forums that killer players can just pull whatever out of where-the-sun-don't-shine and survivors have to fight tooth and nail to be allowed to have an opinion?
It's the exact dogma that I mentioned earlier.
Prove it, then. Prove that no one had a balanced match.
Conveniently omitting 15 seconds of doing nothing first. It's also hardly the first of its kind with a directly comparable perk in Deadline, which no one picks because it's terrible.
That's shifting the goalposts.
Nuh. It doesn't work like this. I first explained why not, u tried to dodge. I asked for record prooves first. Your train were missed. But don’t worry, as I remember I had a showcase of me playing against Crasue in solo, where both killer and two other of my teammates were good. The third one DC, but new “fair” system made it responsibility of a killer, so yes.
But I’ll show it when u will show your own.
It seems u just lack of words now and only thing that left is rhetorical speech. I don’t enjoy hypothetical speech on this forum, because no matter side, this “hypothesis” always ignores ideal conditions - of good player and balanced RGN existence. U yourself ignore it, because tried to compare tunneling with that weird perk. Because it seems u genuinely believe they are equal in so called ideal conditions. So on this stage, is just a sentiment.
This 15 seconds later last for more than just one gen. I were doing this when killer were using deadlock/grim embrace to dodge my time lose lol, so again, did u even played PTB yourself releasing full potential of new builds? U can finish two gens while this perk is active. It can ask 15 seconds in duo and 45 alone to do gen in good conditions. U can finish the gen before toolbox will be over in not really ideal conditions, but the most important- u can lessen the risky time staying on dangerous gen killer patrolling . Same with autodidact. U can “waste” 15 seconds while u waiting your teammate to find u through empathic connection and after this u can get the easiest 5 stacks in your life. I simply warned my duo about me coming to his part of the map and he was ready for healing me in ridiculous speed. The way u are comparing actually good perk to deadline, again, show your great love of exaggeration in your own favor, using false equivalence as cheap way to dodge argument.
No, u just wish to ignore good stuff u already have because it doesn't correlate with your sentiment, at the same time pointing “BUT BASE POP”. So. The only reason while this pop is still used by killers and it considers as meta because u don't have alternative and numerous times many meta gen regression was nerfed, except of dms. Because survivors complained on low efficiency and tunneling at same time. But when tunneling completely gone, this pop wasn't returned to at least base state even. It's not even 40% of current progression, even when u combine base kit with slot u wasted. Nothing actually were compensated, it was cheap placebo. But for killers nothing in their builds actually changed. No meta shift - just acceptance of L situation when u are about to face interesting opponents, because now the only u can compete against is survivors who 100% play worse than u. Equality factor gone completely when it was already on thin edge.
Were u looking at your own words, when claimed already existing anti tunnel perks isn’t enough? Were u looking at your words, claiming it is so unbelievably hard to counter tunneling when I showed u my stats (which u conveniently ignored)? Nuh. Because again - it’s all killer fault. Killer is so evil he use only actual strategy that gives him chances against good players to win, killers is so evil just because they don’t believe 8 base kits over 3 is fair position, killer is so evil just because they have other sentiment. Your words are backfire heavily u rn.
I’m having more hours on survivor. I just not trying to force game evolve around bad players and I believe we already have tools, people just don’t know how to use it or messy RGN and bugs spoil it over. I’m not pure killer main, so your loud claims devaluate itself again. On ptb I played survivor mainly. On normal q I play more survivor than killer. Over two months I had around 150 matches as survivor and 50 on killer. In solo, in duo, in 3 sfw, in 4 sfw. Mainly duo and solo, but now I decided to quit solo because after 2v8 end I see more sandbagging teammates in average queue.
Tunnel will stay easy as soon as players like u spread this. U contibute yourself to this system, and even level up the tension of tribalism. I tried to speak differently - asked for actual compensation or balancing on all levels, if u really wish this approach overall gone. But as u showed, your sentiment blur the vision of reaching good tools and necessity of what we have already to play around it. So, u ask and pray for this meaningless tribalism and it’s the only way to speak with u.
As with other person above, I don’t see point to invest in such speech. GL for next.
And I've argued my case. So why am I the only one that has to prove anything?
I asked if you understand what a hypothetical is, and I think the answer, as can be deduced from this response, is a hard 'no'.
The point of the hypothetical was not to make any point about tunnelling itself but about your argument in defense of it. Your rant about 'ignoring ideal conditions' is also baseless, considering I didn't stipulate any conditions at all. So if you want to take that hypothetical in the absolute ideal conditions, you are free to do so.
You are still going to have a whale of a time trying to convince anyone that bringing a perk that instantly kills one survivor at the start of the match, for free, is considered 'risky'. No matter how ideal the rest of the conditions are.
That's my point: The 'risky' you're arguing is entirely, 100% without any argumentative value.
It's 90 seconds. Gens are 90 seconds. It lasts one gen. Yes, you can save some time, but you don't blink from gen to gen, so by the time you hit the second gen, it's gone.
Just as a quick reminder, Deadline does the same thing.
The whole thing is a massive departure anyway, because the anti-tunnel changes are separate from the new perk. If the new perk is too strong, that has no bearing on the anti-tunnel system.
Yes, you were talking about genrushing and healing, and you swapped to chase builds.
Except you agree with me, since you assert that, even with anti-tunnel perks in mind, tunnelling is still by far the stronger option. So these anti-tunnel perks aren't functioning as deterrents.
Firstly, your stats were posted in response to someone else, not to me. Secondly, the absolute best you can muster is a 52% escape rate, which is pretty damn close to being balanced. Which you then immediately tackled out with solo queue going down to 41% escape rate, which is severely underpowered.
So you are arguing of some kind of severely survivor-sided situation where the best you were able to muster was just a fair shot, and it scaled down to being horribly disadvantaged.
I'm sure killer players are trembling.
Again, you are arguing with a voice in your head, not with me.
Except you also dismiss, out of hand, any possibility of the balance not being what you insist it is. You are putting yourself in a position of solitary arbitration of what the game's balance is and should be.
Others may disagree.
The stats certainly don't reflect your position, and you have nothing else to present but personal experience and anecdote, which don't constitute proof.
If you wanted to prove that these systems would ruin the game, they would've had to have been in play for longer to actually gather relevant data, but they were pulled too quickly to do so.
This is not going anywhere. Ultimately, tunnelling is the sacred cow of a very vocal contingent of the forum, and no matter what proposal is made to combat it, it will always be shot down by those who insist on tunnelling.
The point is, it's completely fine if a change nerfs SWF heavily, and only nerfs solo q bit a little, because the overall change is bridging the gap between solo q and SWF.
I can’t imagine nerf of such perks unfortunately, because many people will start to complain on “fun” and teamplay factor. Something like straight compensation of tunneling redundancy instead of placebo nerfed base kits already makes such people extremely sensitive if judging by posts above, so idk how u can explain people u can't deny hook by sabo or some head-on
What about chain of takin hits? U can’t forbid SFW to cover their teammate by not throwing their bodies for example. It's not related to perks. And I’m pretty sure the actual problem of sfw is their efficiency. I never struggles as killer too much against sfw with “hook denial”. Just splitting is already enough to completely change tone of the match
Nerfing the perks is fine. A lot of them are rarely used in solo q anyway.
And hook denial absolutely is used way more in SWFs, and is the easiest way to bridge the gap between solo q and SWF. And when the anti-slugging mechanics comes back, this is the perfect way to make sure slugging is actually fair for both sides. Killers should not be punished for slugging, if the survivors forced the killer to slug. So if any meaningful anti-slugging changes are going to be added to the game, then there should be changes to ensure the killer could have hooked the survivor instead of slugging.
Maybe we just have different experience encountering different SFWs. On CIS and around region the most aggressive play u can see doesn’t include uncounterable hook denial. Second chances perks hit more than some sfw one
Do you think SWFs use hook denial more than solo q?
I think sfws use it more, but I don’t find hook denial main issue of me losing. I can’t dodge teams only when they play in pub scream or comp manner - just loop good, play safe and split up.
I literally had 3 games in a row two days ago where so called sfws tried sabo, boil over and background player. They all died on 5-3 gens or were 4 slugged within few minutes. Such sfws suffer from lack of skill by ignoring main objective or excessive altruism and it kills them. It’s extremely annoying so, but really few people properly use such opportunities.
Yet every SFW I played against and lost were splitting up and bodyblocking/baiting if needed. I do it myself when play SFW and it’s much more oppressive because u just abuse your quantity superiority. That’s where imbalance of assym genre calls for me. It’s a hook denial u can’t adjust by perk nerfs. Here is the main point. Perks always works either as crutches , either counterplay, and simply nerfing them won’t fix it
We need remove this silly “nerfs” “punishments” “anti system” terms from our dictionary. I am honestly tired from people instead of incentivising/encouraging good play demand of blind nerfs of your opponents. It became so silly when it reaches boiling point where we already are
Feels like people just don’t want to compete and wait for other side be handicapped just “but, but! imaging worst scenario over as arguement”
The point is SWFs can be nerfed.
You don’t like the solutions, but they would nerf SWFs. Yes, it would be really difficult to nerf SWF efficiency, which is why the reasonable solution would involve nerfing other things SWFs do better.
Devs would touch and nerf every stronger killer than even touvh swf they are scared, nurse will be nerfed twice and reworked before swf will get dome change and by that time blight will be just another mediocre killer when this happens.
They won’t change whole picture. But whatever, we can at least start with small changes. Just doubt people will accept them even. Current sentiment evolves around killers have to be nerfed, another contribution, even when it’ll affect mainly sfw will be the last drop of their patience.
Post above proved me enough what such players actually wish to see. They not satisfied with 50% winrate in sfw from player who already has such results playing less then 1k, they expect to see above 40% on solo q despite the same solo having a tendency doing mistakes which is completely their and not killer fault. People wants other role being freely punished and themselves handholded in case of losing, while they consciously put them in disadvantage, playing solo q and complaining on need to bring perks and play to counterplay. It’s like, complaining playing trapper against efficient comms. Like why people have even audacity to think that they should have free bypass from opponents, doing nothing themselves and choosing weakest tools, expecting the whole game evolve around the bottom of balance. They even see problem in tunneling, but can’t provide worthy compensation. Because again, for me such people don’t want challenge. They crave for abstract fun with no contribution from their side.
And now we talking about some perks nerfs for SFW like it’ll contribute meaningfully. Same coin from me, just other side.
I just got tired from this community. Honestly. The speech around nerfs will be relentless. It’s just pull and tag war. Probably I have to quit completely or switch to ladder if majority of community have such mindset. Tried to make a meaningful post, but it was all wiped away from doomposting and “more nerfs” rant under comment section. Even now I doompost, just giving up. This is real plague