Sadako changes idea

jasonq500

Bringing back more ideas that I have for sadako to make her more better to play as and to make her add-ons much more useful

(Edit, I've updated some ideas from other people's suggestions)

Base Kit changes -

• manifest invisibility last for 1.3 seconds (was 1 second)

• demanifest invisibility Last for 1.5 second (was 1.2)

•Increase projection duration movement speed for 3 seconds (was 2 seconds)

• sadako now gains her manifest duration when projecting to TV's

•increase her undetectable duration by 6 seconds after projecting to TV's

• TV's take 65 seconds to turn back on after being turned back off by a survivor (was 70)

•(new) sadako Grant's immunity to stun for 4 seconds after manifesting or projecting out the TV

•(new) tapes are destroyed when survivors have taken damaged (does not inflict condemn)

Add-on pass

•old newspaper - (reworked) TV projections sounds are now silent within certain range (kinda like wraith's)

• mother's mirror- now includes the immune stun as well as it's current effect

• sea-soaked cloth - increase undetectable duration by 4 seconds when projecting to a TV

•reikos watch- (reworked) vault and kicking speed is increased by 15 percent when demanifested

• clump of hair- decrease the range by 8 meters (was 6 meters)

Well stone - the specific TV that was turned off by survivor is immediately turn back on when a tape is destroyed or inserted back to a different TV

• well waters - successful attack cooldown is reduce by 15% when hitting a survivor holding a tape (has a 30 second cooldown)

•Ring drawing - (reworked) hitting a survivor holding a tape will inflict other survivors a stack of condemn

•Bloody fingernails- (reworked) reduce the time it takes to project out of a TV by 0.3 seconds

Rickety pinwheel - survivor gains oblivious for 60 seconds once they grab a tape

• VRC- fake Sadako's will appear at all TV's that are currently on when projecting (new)

•Telephone- (reworked) survivors gain 5 percent hinder for 2.7 seconds when sadako teleports within 16 meters to a survivor

•Tape editing deck- (reworked) all survivors starts off condemn with a total of 3 stacks

•Iri tape- (reworked) sadako can now teleport at any TV's that are off (it does not inflict condemn), TV's that are off has a 15 second cooldown before you can teleport to them again

These are all the ideas I have for sadako

What do you think?

YamamuraVideoRentals

Sorry I don't think this meets the mark.

We need some fundamental changes to how her stealth ability works, and how condemn and the survivor ability to shut down her power works. It would also be nice if she could simply crawl out of TVs faster, rather than increasing the time she is sped up.

Simply tweaking numbers is not how to make Sadako better.

jasonq500

@YamamuraVideoRentals said:

Sorry I don't think this meets the mark.

We need some fundamental changes to how her stealth ability works, and how condemn and the survivor ability to shut down her power works. It would also be nice if she could simply crawl out of TVs faster, rather than increasing the time she is sped up.

Simply tweaking numbers is not how to make Sadako better.

How come? The changes I have for her while yes are tweaks, but I personally think that's all she needed are tweaks to make her feel better, tapes get destroyed when a survivor takes any damage, three of her addons are now fully base kit etc

And make her add-ons more useful and have variety since they're currently not worth running (except for remote control, bloody fingernails)

MechWarrior3

@jasonq500 said:

Bringing back more ideas that I have for sadako to make her more better to play as and to make her add-ons much more useful

Base Kit changes -

• manifest invisibility last for 1.3 seconds (was 1 second)

• demanifest invisibility Last for 1.5 second (was 1.2)

•Increase projection duration movement speed for 3 seconds (was 2 seconds)

• sadako now gains her manifest duration when projecting to TV's

•increase her undetectable duration by 6 seconds after projecting to TV's

• TV's take 65 seconds to turn back on after being turned back off by a survivor (was 70)

•(new) sadako Grant's immunity to stun for 4 seconds after manifesting or projecting out the TV

•(new) tapes are destroyed when survivors have taken damaged (does not inflict condemn)

Add-on pass

•old newspaper - (reworked) TV projections sounds are now silent within certain range (kinda like wraith's)

• mother's mirror- now includes the immune stun as well as it's current effect

• sea-soaked cloth - increase undetectable duration by 4 seconds when projecting to a TV

•reikos watch- (reworked) vault and kicking speed is increased by 15 percent when demanifested

• clump of hair- decrease the range by 8 meters (was 6 meters)

Well stone - the specific TV that was turned off by survivor is immediately turn back on when a tape is destroyed or inserted back to a different TV

• well waters - successful attack cooldown is reduce by 15% when hitting a survivor holding a tape (has a 30 second cooldown)

•Ring drawing - tapes are no longer destroyed when a survivor takes damage, when hooking a survivor holding a tape, other survivors gain two stacks of condemn

•Bloody fingernails- (reworked) reduce the time it takes to project out of a TV by 0.3 seconds

Rickety pinwheel - survivor gains oblivious for 60 seconds once they grab a tape

• VRC- fake Sadako's will appear at all TV's that are currently on when projecting (new)

•Telephone- (reworked) survivors gain 5 percent hinder for 2.7 seconds when sadako teleports within 16 meters to a survivor

•Tape editing deck- (reworked) all survivors starts off condemn with a total of 3 stacks

•Iri tape- (reworked) sadako can now teleport at any TV's that are off (it does not inflict condemn), TV's that are off has a 15 second cooldown before you can teleport to them again

These are all the ideas I have for sadako

What do you think?

I like your direction. You created some pathways for diversity which is really appreciated!

Not bad changes at all my friend. A few changes/concerns I would like to throw on the table.

1) Ring drawing - “New” Upon breaking a tape in a survivors hand, 1 stack of condemn goes to each survivor EXCEPT for the survivor who’s tape broke.

If you don’t like that idea for it, it could be something where everyone that has a stack of condemn, 1 stack of condemn with be locked in EXCEPT for the person you broke the tape on. :)

My concern with your design is this…(which I don’t know if it’s a concern per say because I would need to test your design to know of course)

2) Well stone feels like it would still have to be a must addon to run simply due to Sadako losing her power and it being controlled by survivors hence our current design flaw.

3) I also would like her lullaby to be either smaller or much much larger with no directional help.

I’d have to try your design in person to “feel” it out in a trial to know for sure, but obviously that’s not possible. However, like I said. I like your ideas! :)

jasonq500

@MechWarrior3 said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/453811/sadako-changes-idea

I like your direction. You created some pathways for diversity which is really appreciated!

Not bad changes at all my friend. A few changes/concerns I would like to throw on the table.

1) Ring drawing - “New” Upon breaking a tape in a survivors hand, 1 stack of condemn goes to each survivor EXCEPT for the survivor who’s tape broke.

If you don’t like that idea for it, it could be something where everyone that has a stack of condemn, 1 stack of condemn with be locked in EXCEPT for the person you broke the tape on. :)

My concern with your design is this…(which I don’t know if it’s a concern per say because I would need to test your design to know of course)

2) Well stone feels like it would still have to be a must addon to run simply due to Sadako losing her power and it being controlled by survivors hence our current design flaw.

3) I also would like her lullaby to be either smaller or much much larger with no directional help.

I’d have to try your design in person to “feel” it out in a trial to know for sure, but obviously that’s not possible. However, like I said. I like your ideas! :)

Glad you like the direction I have

For your ideas and concerns you have

1)Your idea on ring drawing is a nice idea, doesn't have the potential hard slugging effect that 2.0 had going

2)For well stone yeah I do see some potential problems becoming a must run addon if it were implemented in an actual game

3) there's many ways of changing her lullaby like maybe reduce her range by a certain amount by each survivors holding a tape or have no lullaby if you hold a tape by a certain amount of time

As for how they would feel to play, definitely am hoping one of the manager can see some of the ideas from this post and hopefully have it tested out by someone

MechWarrior3

@jasonq500 said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3986876#Comment_3986876

Glad you like the direction I have

For your ideas and concerns you have

1)Your idea on ring drawing is a nice idea, doesn't have the potential hard slugging effect that 2.0 had going

2)For well stone yeah I do see some potential problems becoming a must run addon if it were implemented in an actual game

3) there's many ways of changing her lullaby like maybe reduce her range by a certain amount by each survivors holding a tape or have no lullaby if you hold a tape by a certain amount of time

As for how they would feel to play, definitely am hoping one of the manager can see some of the ideas from this post and hopefully have it tested out by someone

Absolotely my friend! May I tag you in my thread I made on her recently? It’s a little spicy over there but that’s due to people that don’t know her as well. 😅

Ohyakno

I really like these add-ons. They're way more creative than what we have now

jasonq500

@MechWarrior3 said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3986957#Comment_3986957

Absolotely my friend! May I tag you in my thread I made on her recently? It’s a little spicy over there but that’s due to people that don’t know her as well. 😅

Think I know which thread it is lol

Yeah sure I wouldn't mind

jasonq500

@Ohyakno said:

I really like these add-ons. They're way more creative than what we have now

Hey thanks 😊

Really do hope sadako actually gets an Add-on pass someday

YamamuraVideoRentals

@jasonq500 said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3983381#Comment_3983381

How come? The changes I have for her while yes are tweaks, but I personally think that's all she needed are tweaks to make her feel better, tapes get destroyed when a survivor takes any damage, three of her addons are now fully base kit etc

And make her add-ons more useful and have variety since they're currently not worth running (except for remote control, bloody fingernails)

For one thing, I've had my own little pet ideas. 😉

@YamamuraVideoRentals said:

Seven days.

Seven days is all Sadako Yamamura can spare to play with you. However, that is a little long for a dbd match, so let's try to cut that down to about seven minutes?

This rework idea takes the Onryo's condemn mechanics in a radically different direction. The problems with current Onryo 3.0 are that her ability is too easy to counter. Survivors can see the auras of her TVs and easily stay away from them to avoid condemn stacks. Or they can simply shut TVs off too easily, or when the Onryo teleports to a TV, they will see the aura disappear and know to run the other way. What's also problematic are that the current changes still do not discourage tunneling; they encourage tunneling now more than ever! Onryo players still do love to get those condemn moris, and the way to achieve this is to continually harass the same survivor, attempting to herd them into active TVs, and otherwise spamming your teleport power rather than give meaningful chase. However, to be fair, it does feel like overusing the teleport power has become necessary, seeing as (as mentioned above) survivors can easily find and disable TVs. This not only prevents the Onryo from building up condemn stacks, but severely limits her mobility.

I'd like to avoid all those problems entirely. In this 4.0 rework, TVs are for mobility, special addon effects, and a bit of info only. Survivors cannot turn off TVs. Condemn is instead built up passively at all times, like a ticking time bomb. Think of it like pig's reverse bear traps, except you take actions to postpone the head pop.

So first thing is first: at the beginning of the match, all survivors start with a condemn timer. At the end of seven minutes, they become fully condemned, which not only makes them exposed, but instantly killable by mori. Seven minutes isn't a lot of time. In order to buy more time, survivors must spread the Onryo's curse. They approach a TV and use the interact action, which takes 3 seconds to make a copy of a cursed tape. They are then shown the aura of two target TVs (the ones farthest away) which they must deposit that tape into. Depositing a tape takes 1.5 seconds. Once they have successfully put their tape into one of their target TVs, their condemn timer pauses for 90 seconds.

Meanwhile, the Onryo uses the TVs to teleport around. She can only teleport to powered TVs, as in previous iterations. Powered TVs also can cause special effects, which will be explained later. When the Onryo teleports to a TV, that particular TV shuts off (also as with previous iterations). However, in this 4.0 rework, instead of survivors being able to shut off TVs (they can't do this ever) they can turn on TVs. They might want to do this so they can make a cursed VHS Tape at that particular TV. If they want to deposit their VHS tape into a TV, it also must be powered. So the Onryo cannot block survivors from completing tape runs by spamming her power. But the survivors can enable themselves to do tape runs by enabling the Onryo to teleport to her TVs earlier.

When a survivor completes their errand to deposit their cursed VHS tape, this may delay the onset of their curse, but this empowers the Onryo. At the start of the match, teleporting to a TV causes it to shut off for 56 seconds. When survivors deposit tapes into a TV, they reduce that shutoff time by 7 seconds (down to a minimum of 7 seconds), and each tape deposited also increases the speed in which the Onryo manifests from that TV slightly. Additionally, the range of powered TV special effects is increased by +1 meter.

When a TV has been fully powered up, there would be only a very small amount of time it remains shut off, and the Onryo will be coming out of it very fast! Special effects from powered TVs will also have an increased range of +7 meters. Ideally, survivors would not want this to happen, and should make sure they are not always bringing cursed VHS Tapes to the same location.

The overall game plan for survivors is probably about the same as usual: do generators as quickly as possible to escape the killer and avoid the curse. Do tape runs to postpone the curse. As for the Onryo: how do you exert condemn pressure? By relentlessly chasing down your victims, as all good killer design should strive to do. When the Onryo chases survivors, downs them, and hooks them, they can't do generators. When the Onryo chases survivors, they will have difficulty creating cursed VHS Tapes. The condemn timer will not pause while survivors are being chased, but it will pause while they are in the dying state or on a hook. Also when the Onryo hooks a survivor, she not only destroys any tape they were holding, but removes the ongoing effect of a recent tape run.

For example, let's say a survivor returns a cursed VHS into a TV right in front of the Onryo and immediately goes down. Their condemn timer would normally be paused for 90 seconds. It's paused anyway because they are on the floor, but let's say a hook was nearby, the survivor gets hooked, and is then quickly rescued. That 90 seconds of paused condemn timer they had from their tape run is gone, since they were hooked. They will have to do another tape run if they want to delay their curse.

Here's the other potential problem from previous Onryo versions we are avoiding: a common nobrainer strategy for survivors would be to just get a tape and deposit it. Then, since it takes a bit of time to create a copy, just get another cursed VHS Tape and hold onto it for safety. Maybe deposit that tape after you finish doing a generator nearby, or think about depositing it once the Onryo finds you and you are in a chase.

However! In this Onryo 4.0 iteration, holding onto tapes actually comes with risk. You see, what we are going to do is truly make the Onryo a "stealth killer" again. We all know that the Onryo can demanifest, and she's only visible intermittently from a certain distance away. But there's also a distinctive lullaby that warns experienced survivors when she is near. This drastically impairs her stealth ability. So what we will do is this: when survivors are within 8 meters of a powered TV, they experience the lullaby effect, regardless of where the Onryo is. This range increases by +1 meter each time a tape has been deposited into that TV. Additionally, when survivors are holding onto a cursed VHS Tape, they always experience the lullaby effect, and the Onryo's demanifested visibility range is reduced by 4 meters.

For example, normally the Onryo is visible from 24 meters away when demanifested, and completely invisible outside of this range. Holding onto a cursed VHS tape reduces this distance by 4 meters, meaning you can only see the Onryo from 20 meters away. Combined with the Clump of Hair addon, this distance can be reduced to 14 meters. And since holding onto a tape constantly puts you in the effect of the Onryo's lullaby, you can never really be sure if she is nearby or not until you get rid of your tape.

The last thing this 4.0 rework does is tweak the visibility of TV auras. Even though survivors cannot turn off TVs in this version, they still need to interact with them in order to delay the curse. When survivors are within 8 meters of a TV and not holding a tape, they will see its aura in white, whether it is on or off. Additionally, TVs will place the survivors under the effect of the Onryo's lullaby, and emit visual static and audio cues. The ranges of these effects depend on how many times the TV has had a tape deposited into it. If a nearby TV is turned off via Projection, these static and audio cues will subside after 5 seconds. Once a survivor has made a copy of a cursed VHS Tape, they will briefly see the location of their target TV(s). Only when they come within close proximity of their target TV(s), let's say 8 meters, will they see the aura. Again, the aura will be visible, regardless of whether the TV is on or off. When a survivor is in chase, they will not see TV auras.

So changes in a nutshell. TLDR:

• 7 minute doomsday timer. Teleporting does not increase condemn.
• Do tape runs to delay timer by 90 seconds.
• Survivors can't turn off TVs. But they can turn them on to complete their objectives.
• Survivors can see TV auras, but only on a need-to-know basis, and not while in chase.
• Doing tape runs allow the Onryo to teleport more frequently and project faster.
• Tape runs also increase the range of powered TV special effects.
• Takes 3 seconds to receive a tape, and 1.5 seconds to deposit a tape.
• Holding a tape or being near powered TVs put survivors under the lullaby effect.
• Being downed or hooked pauses the condemn timer.
• Being hooked destroys tapes, and will resume survivors' condemn timers when unhooked.
• Dead survivors do not cause TVs to play special animations as if they were nearby.

Now let's look at some proposed addon changes:

Cabin Sign - Reduces the time it takes for TVs to turn back on after Projection by -10%.

Mothers Mirror - Increases the duration of your intermittent Invisibility after Manifesting by +2 seconds. (unchanged).

Old Newspaper - Increases the duration of your full Invisibility after Manifesting by +33%. (unchanged)

Videotape Copy - When Survivors retrieve a cursed VHS Tape, they have a choice of three target TVs. When Survivors successfully deposit a VHS Tape, their condemn timer is paused for 110 seconds. +100% bonus blood points to the Hunting category.

Clump of Hair - Reduces the threshold for full Invisibility while Demanifested by -6 meters. (unchanged)

Reiko's Watch - Increases the duration of your full Invisibility while Demanifested by +25%. (unchanged)

Sea-soaked Cloth - Survivors suffer from the Blindness Status Effect when within 8 meters of powered TVs. (+1 meter per deposited tape). This effect lingers for 5 seconds after leaving the area, or after the TV shuts off.

Well Stone - Survivors suffer from the Exhaustion Status Effect when within 8 meters of powered TVs. (+1 meter per deposited tape). This effect lingers for 5 seconds after leaving the area, or after the TV shuts off.

Yoichi's Fishing Net - Survivors suffer from the Blindness Status Effect after their curse has progressed 70%.

Bloody Finger Nails - Increases the Speed Boost duration after Projection by +50%. (unchanged)

Mother's Comb - Highlights the auras of unpowered TVs in yellow. When standing within 4 meters of a powered TV, you may teleport to an unpowered TV at the cost of resetting both TVs' shutoff times to whichever is highest. When survivors turn on a TV, they trigger a loud noise notification.

Rickety Pinwheel - Survivors suffer from the Oblivious Status Effect when within 8 meters of powered TVs. (+1 meter per deposited tape). This effect lingers for 5 seconds after leaving the area, or after the TV shuts off.

Ring Drawing - While Survivors are performing a Healing action, their condemn timer progresses twice as fast. If their condemn timer is paused, that grace period is consumed twice as fast.

Well Water - Increases the duration of the Undetectable Status Effect by +2 Seconds when manifesting by any means. Manifesting is silent, and the volume of Projection Effects is reduced by -50%.

Distorted Photo - Causes all Survivors within 16 meters of your location who witness your Manifestation to scream and reveal their auras for 4 seconds. (unchanged)

Tape Editing Deck - All Survivors start the trial with a cursed VHS Tape. They must bring their VHS Tape to one of three possible TVs that are farthest from their current location. Survivors are not notified where their first target TV is. The auras of Survivors inserting a VHS Tape into a TV are revealed for 6 seconds.

Telephone - Survivors suffer from a -3% Hindered Status Effect for 3 seconds when Manifesting within 7 meters of them. (unchanged)

VCR - Causes all TVs to play the Projection Effects when using Projection. (unchanged)

Iridescent Video Tape - When survivors retrieve a cursed VHS Tape, they only have one target TV to deposit it into, and it is the one that is farthest away. When Survivors successfully deposit a VHS Tape, their condemn timer is paused for 77 seconds. Survivors holding onto a cursed VHS Tape receive a +2% haste bonus.

Remote Control - The Auras of all Survivors within 12 meters of powered TVs are revealed to you for 7 seconds after using Projection. (unchanged)

If you got this far, thank you for reading! Feel free to leave critique, and occasionally bump the thread so it does not get buried!

@YamamuraVideoRentals said:

When Onryo kills a survivor at max condemn stacks, that survivor death should count for all three hook stages in the sacrifice emblem, hook states in the maliciousness emblem, and bonus points in the chase emblem.

Edit: I think I need to elaborate on this a little. The Onryo's power, aside from teleporting around, is literally building up condemn stacks and then killing survivors with 7 stacks. Usually this is achieved with a combination of hit and run tactics, strategic (or sometimes spamming) teleports, and a massive misplay on the survivors' part.

Killing a survivor off early is a great way to secure a victory for a game, but the problem is that the emblem system does not compensate for an early kill without all the injures, downs, and hooks. When Sadako moris one survivor who had not been hooked yet, she can no longer get iri devout emblem, and of course she won't get as much credit in the chase and maliciousness categories. When all survivors die to mori, this means her emblem score has tanked, and it is impossible for a player to gain ranking pips for that game.

But ultimately, while I still really like the theme and overall powers Onryo has, she still severely lacks in some areas none of your suggestions would fix:

-Her "stealth" ability is a joke. Her lullaby is heard by all, and it's directional. Meaning that she doesn't actually have any stealth when facing experienced survivors. I have actually had more luck getting the drop on them when approaching MANIFESTED!

-Survivors shut off her power way too easily. Her TVs are easily visible. Convenient to find and walk up to, quick to shut off. A single survivor can shut off multiple TVs and not be punished at all, unless you just so happen to run across them. When survivors do this, you pretty much lose your power at that location for a whopping 70 seconds. Nothing feels worse than having nothing going for you during a match. No chase ongoing, by a gen with 0 progress, and all your TVs everywhere aren't even on.

-Speaking of TVs being very easy and convenient to spot, this also makes it way too obvious when you try to teleport ahead of a survivor. In a chase, good survivors would know to try to avoid a TV. They'll also know when to U-turn the instant they can't see the TV's aura anymore. So even that thing which I liked to do doesn't usually work.

-Teleport Spam. It's stupid how it's still pretty meta to spam teleport, either for building up condemn stacks or just to allow yourself to "control" your own TVs. And by "control" I guess we mean shutting them off for a slightly shorter period….

Unfortunately a lot of your changes like making Onryo completely immune to stuns for 4 seconds after manifesting would make her completely brainless to play as killer, and she'll just be hated like kaneki, singularity, or speed clown, because with a change like that there's absolutely no skill involved. You literally would chase a survivor through a loop, swing through the pallet like it's not there. If they don't drop the pallet, it's a free hit. If they do drop the pallet, congrats, you got a pallet down AND also got a free hit.