The Botany Knowledge Buff Really Isn't A Big Deal (Bear With Me)

jesterkind

Seriously, hear me out.

I see this buff talked about in passing a lot since it happened, usually in the context of talking about how healing is busted right now or some such. Now, trust me, I get it- I was also nervous about them buffing Botany and even had misgivings about this specific buff when it was announced, so I get how you'd come to this conclusion. However, I do truly think the buff kinda didn't change much at all.

A big chunk of the reason why is that the penalty they removed… kinda didn't matter already. It was already trivially easy to overcome for a single heal - just bring one charge addon - and not all that difficult to get two heals out of either by bringing a syringe.

So, with that in mind, what new options are actually available/improved noticeably because of the penalty not existing? To my eyes, there's three, and none are all that frightening. Those are:

• Survivors with Botany can now use medkits they find in chests. This is… something, but they still have the time investment of the chest itself, so not a particularly huge bonus.
• Getting two heals via charge addons and the healing action is doable without Streetwise now. This is, again, something, but the healing action is practically just weaker than the syringe— the only benefit I can see is that the syringe eats your medkit, but that's pretty minor with how accessible medkits are.
• Altruistic healing builds are now better with Botany and a medkit. This is arguably the biggest boost the perk got, but nobody actually does this and it wouldn't be too problematic if they did.

There's really nothing else that Botany is capable of doing now that it couldn't completely do before the buff, that I can see. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think this buff actually mattered overall.

If you're noticing super fast heals now and they definitely weren't happening before Botany got buffed, it's still not Botany doing it, in my opinion. Don't get me wrong, Botany's top tier, but it was top tier before this buff too.

crogers271

@UndeddJester said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3955834#Comment_3955834

I generally prefer BK over We'll Make It, but, when I run We'll Make It, I feel so much more comfortable getting that heal in right away.

Is a fair point, though just to clarify, it's only 2.667s seconds not 4s, which translates to difference of ~12.25m of killer distance in the trial.

I accept the point that even with that number, it can of course make the difference of getting a heal off before the tunnel, but a killer really trying to tunnel will often interrupt before We'll Make It can finish as well... so I don't particularly see the additional value that comes from We'll Make It vs. Botany.

Especially when in SoloQ you have this constant problem of teammates being too keen to unhook, so if you have good unhook discipline, you often don't even get to trigger We'll Make It anyway, whereas Botany is always up no matter what happens.

And in regards to Botany having the same strength as before, please refer to my post above this one.

Is a fair point, though just to clarify, it's only 2.667s seconds not 4s, which translates to difference of ~12.25m of killer distance in the trial.

This is my bad, for some reason I was thinking the numbers for running both as the comparison (~4.3 seconds adding We'll Make It on top of Botany, but we're discussing 1 vs the other).

@UndeddJester said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3955701#Comment_3955701

This is fair enough, and yes Botany did always have this strength before, however, my point has always been that the -20% medkit efficiency gave the perk a tangible downside.

That downside gave scenarios where Botany wasn't a preferable perk. Those scenarios didn't come up too often, Botany was a very consistent and strong perk, but they DID exist. The most prominent one being, if I'm injured at end game, need to heal solo and running Botany, I can't search chests for a medkit. That's a pretty niche weakness, but it's a real scenario that does come up every now and again.

I'm an off meta player, I like theory crafting and trying to create builds with a particular idea in mind, looking for combinations of perks that work well, that others may overlook... it's probably my favourite part of the game... and in all theory crafting, Botany is a strong choice every time, however this weakness above is also a factor to consider each time, and is a weakness that meant I might choose something like the less consistent perks like Desperate Measures, We'll Make It or Do No Harm in its place... and by doing so, using these perks inspires me to perhaps consider other alternatives that might uniquely synergise better with them.

Now whenever I'm creating builds, if I'm thinking of a healing speed perk for a build, Botany is the best choice every time because I can always ensure I have it for any scenario, including healing myself. It's why I hate the change so much, because whenever I'm theory crafting a healing build, the answer is always Botany... and that is so boring to me.

Those scenarios didn't come up too often, Botany was a very consistent and strong perk, but they DID exist.

I think this kind of gets to @jesterkind 's point - it isn't a big deal. Botany was a very good perk, now its a slightly stronger very good perk.

@UndeddJester said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3955516#Comment_3955516

Yeah I understand your point, but I just can't resolve that the extra speed argument on any perk is always moot point, because the difference is only 2.667s additional over BK, compared to the 5.333s value that BK already gives... and BK works in every scenario.

So then you have to go to secondary effects... and every effect falls short compared to the fact that BK also saves a whopping 8 seconds on medkit self healing, and frees up a whole extra players hands for the 16s duration... thats 16s of value from a medkit+ BK. This effect is good enough to be a perk on its own, and yet BK gives a significant portion of other perks value with no set-up, cooldowns of conditions whatsoever. Remember no self healing exists for all these other perks... so I'm just gonna say NoSH as a reminder.

We'll Make It is the big loser, cause it only grants an additional ⅓ of the value of BK, despite being conditional and having a time limit. Totally shut down by slugging or SoloQ hooking too fast... and NoSH.

We're Gonna Live Forever is a contender, because the endurance effect is a valuable effect that Botany cannot compete with... but is reliant on the killer to slug for value, whereas Botany's value is almost always gonna be there getting value no matter what strategy the killer employs short of tunneling the BK player (and even the a syringe can do huge work).NoSH.

Circle of Healing is far to restrictive, take 14s to set up, however much time to run to the boon, then again, only saving 2.667s over BK and can be snuffed. Totally pointless to run this perk, especially since COH is a NoSH perk.

Do No Harm is no value on no hook stage, equal value on first hook stage, and again only the same 2.667s value on the second hook stage. The net overall healing time over the game is still longer than Botany in practically all scenarios.... and once again, NoSH.

Desperate Measures, requires multiple injures teammates 3/4 of them to see the same value. Unhook speed is nice but really other than making a trade easier when injured, it's just not got an effect that rivals the consistency of Botany. Though this one does have self healing though; DoSH.

Empathic Connection has a decent percentage of the value of Botany at 11.85s compared to BKs 10.667s, and is similarly unconditional. The aura effect is actually decent here to create and good value trade off... though NoSH strike again. The self heal speed is a major head and shoulders value advantage.

This is why I can't take the argument that other perks have their own value particularly seriously... the value of Botany is so consistent and universally applicable, that the value of it trumps everything.

I know I'm bouncing back a bit here but I noticed you didn't mention the game's best healing perk Autodidact.

😂

(in all seriousness when I've gotten autodidact in chaos shuffle I've found getting it fully charged can be game changing, but it is so incredibly luck dependent).

I kind of want to defend CoH, but all my memories of it being effective are from different metas. When slugging and 3 genning where stronger I found a CoH/Exponential a useful build, but not as much anymore. I guess it does provide the benefit of that the rest of the survivors can focus on non-healing perks if they're coordinating in the lobby, but even then it's really map dependent on its strength.

UndeddJester

@crogers271 said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3955905#Comment_3955905

Is a fair point, though just to clarify, it's only 2.667s seconds not 4s, which translates to difference of ~12.25m of killer distance in the trial.

This is my bad, for some reason I was thinking the numbers for running both as the comparison (~4.3 seconds adding We'll Make It on top of Botany, but we're discussing 1 vs the other).

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3955901#Comment_3955901

Those scenarios didn't come up too often, Botany was a very consistent and strong perk, but they DID exist.

I think this kind of gets to @jesterkind 's point - it isn't a big deal. Botany was a very good perk, now its a slightly stronger very good perk.

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3955694#Comment_3955694

I know I'm bouncing back a bit here but I noticed you didn't mention the game's best healing perk Autodidact.

😂

(in all seriousness when I've gotten autodidact in chaos shuffle I've found getting it fully charged can be game changing, but it is so incredibly luck dependent).

I kind of want to defend CoH, but all my memories of it being effective are from different metas. When slugging and 3 genning where stronger I found a CoH/Exponential a useful build, but not as much anymore. I guess it does provide the benefit of that the rest of the survivors can focus on non-healing perks if they're coordinating in the lobby, but even then it's really map dependent on its strength.

I know I'm bouncing back a bit here but I noticed you didn't mention the game's best healing perk Autodidact.

🤣🤣🤣🤣

Hehehe, Autodidact is a special peach... I do really like the perk actually. When you get it going, it's GOATed, though counter intuitively, it's a bit like Bardic Inspiration really where you actually want to avoid Healing Speed as much as possible for the extra skillchecks. Mangled and perks like Leverage are actually helpful to Autodidact xD

I like to use it in a very specific build: -

• Engineer's Toolbox with extra charge and the no skillcheck add-on (very important!)
• Scavenger
• Streetwise
• Stake Out
• Autodidact

The idea is to crank out your toolbox ASAP on a gen and keep refilling it with Scavenger, and the Engineers Toolbox throws out charges faster than anything. The no skillcheck add-on preserves your Stake Out stacks until you need them... and Autodidact does the same when youre healing cause no great skillchecks xD

I think this kind of gets to

@jesterkind

's point - it isn't a big deal. Botany was a very good perk, now its a slightly stronger very good perk.

Yeah... I guess based on being such a minority I am here, I may just have to concede this is more an issue with my own bias of what I enjoy in the game.

I suppose if I'm really honest, it doesn't change the power dynamic of DBD healing really. Just makes creating builds specifically just a little more boring for me personally. 😒😒😒

UnicornMedal

@Rokku_Rorru said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3955694#Comment_3955694

but a nerf to botany back to the way it was would again not change speeds, all you have to do to get a full self heal is add a bandage on (brown add on btw).

putting the efficiency back on literally changes nothing, people can heal fast with do no harm and we'll make it, both useful throughout the match with not much of a condition needed.

honestly I'd personally prefer old Self care and botany back from before 6.1.0, with how different the game is I don't see an issue with it. Med kits are weaker now, and recent killers are stronger than ever.

I still to this day hate 6.1.0 (still awaiting calm spirit to be fixed)

TELL ME ABOUT IT. I still have no idea why Calm Spirit caught a stray. It used to be fun to run before it was nerfed.

SoGo

@thrawn3054 said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3955891#Comment_3955891

Hemorrhage is already pretty brutal. I'm not sure what more you could want from it. I suppose Mangled could use a buff to the percentage though.

Maybe reversing the awful timer change?

This singular change made most mangled and hemorrhage add-ons worthless, and even sloppy butcher isn't all that good rn.

So the only remaining "decent" thing that gives you these effects is SH: Gift Of Pain.

Rokku_Rorru

@SoGo said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3955914#Comment_3955914

Maybe reversing the awful timer change?

This singular change made most mangled and hemorrhage add-ons worthless, and even sloppy butcher isn't all that good rn.

So the only remaining "decent" thing that gives you these effects is SH: Gift Of Pain.

I disagree, on survivor side I still feel their impact on a match, it's just not permanent and nor should it be.