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Closing the Gap Between SWF and Solo

ModernFable ModernFable
in General Discussions

SWF has caused a great deal of strain on balance, due to the fact that many nerfs to SWF often hurt Solo players more than needed. The difference between Solo and SWF is wide, and most of it stems from basic information that Solos just don’t get.

While the difference can never be made up completely without voice coms, there are many areas which can be greatly improved upon. These are some relatively easy to implement changes that would greatly assist in closing the gap between SWF and Solos.

All Survivors have an “entity icon” (current obsession icon). If you’re the obsession, your “entity icon” is red instead of white. Being chased will animate your “entity icon” as it does currently.

While on hook or in dying state, you may press a button to animate your “entity icon” as if you were in a chase. This is to indicate the Killer is near.

(Perhaps one of the biggest differences between SWF and Solos, is knowing whether a Survivor is in chase or the Killer is near while hooked or slugged. This is a massive advantage of SWF and the "entity icon" intends to even the playing field)

While on hook, Survivors within 36 meters of that hook have their aura revealed to all other Survivors.

(Quickly deciding who is closest to a hooked Survivor is vital in being as efficient as possible with unhooks and generator management. SWF can voice there location immediately, and while this change won't one up that, it will most definitely assist Solo players)

While in dying state, once you are fully recovered (95%), your aura begins blinking slowly.

(Healing a slugged Survivor can be very risky, so coupled with the previous "entity icon" mechanic, this should help provide information that SWF would have in an instant)

While on the Killer’s shoulder, your aura is revealed to all other Survivors.

(This conveys the voice com of "they're taking me to _______" which may be very vital information depending on the hook location. SWF knows this through quick coms, so should Solos)

If a Survivor sees the Killer and is within 24 meters of them, an icon of that Killer appears next to the Generator icon. This icon is visible to all Survivors for the remainder of the trial.

(This is to relay the voice com of "hey it's _____ Killer" that SWF get at the very start of the game, while Solo players have to deduce over time with either an audio or video queue)

Now of course these changes won’t close the gap completely, but I believe they’d do more than any change Behavior has made so far. These changes are specifically made in a way to use current game assets to make for swift and relatively easy coding.

Once the gap is significantly shortened, then proper balance changes would be easier to implement without greatly affecting Solo players.

Comments

  • ModernFable ModernFable
    weirdkid5 said:

    @ModernFable said:
    twistedmonkey said:


    ModernFable said:

    “No the game has already been dumbed down enough due to SWF, so many notifications and aura reading perks for both sides.”

    • You

    They don’t clutter the HUD, and as you said most people should know by the time they’re out of Rank 15, so why does it matter?

    They’re mostly quality of life than anything else.

    And if you weren’t referring to aura reading perks when talking about dumbing down the game, why did you even mention them?

    Moreover on the topic of:

    “there’s no way to close the gap between SWF and solo”

    • You

    Yes there is, most of the suggestions in this post strictly benefit Solo Survivors and thus shortens gap between them. Quite significantly, I might add.

    And whether or not you think SWF is broken or not, it’s been here for quite some time and is likely here to stay. They’ve said they don’t have the tech at the moment to specifically nerf SWF lobbies because they don’t track whether a lobby is Solo or SWF.

    So the logical alternative is to instead bring Solos up to SWF’s power.

    It sounds like you are too new to realise that each time they add something like the suggestions it removes tension in a game, why wonder if you need to hide when you hear a heartbeat when you know where they are? Why go for a save when you know where they are? All this does is allow all the survivors not only swf stay on gens for shorter matches.

    This is not the way to fix the problem making it even more of an m1 simulator, it just means we know everything instead of having to be aware, sounds really fun doesn't it?

    The thing is you don't seem to think about how each one off these buffs also inherently buff swf, the one thing say has that they will never be able to give is on the fly updates, the killer us going to shack, I used that pallet, no pallets left around the harvester, open the gate I have dead hard etc, to think some notifications and aura perks will bring solo anywhere near the same level is laughable.

    Of course SWF is here to stay who said otherwise? they actually do track swf v solo hence the stats they released on percentages on who plays what, having the tech and hand and it not being available are two different things, the tech us out there they just need to get it in place.

    The logical point to fix anything broken is to fix what is not every single thing around it, would you change 6 circuit boards, replace a whole cistern to fix a faulty pipe? Or would you look to fix which is broken? 

    The game is not tense and never has been.

    Dead by Daylight is not a horror game. It’s a cooperative survival game where you do gens and run around pallets.

    >

    It's not cooperative. Your success does not depend on the success of your team whatsoever. This is an opportunistic game.

    Cooperative in the sense that you work together on a team. But yes, there’s a lot of stuff that incentivizes ruining your team for personal gain.
  • weirdkid5 weirdkid5

    @ModernFable said:
    weirdkid5 said:

    @ModernFable said:

    twistedmonkey said:

    ModernFable said:

“No the game has already been dumbed down enough due to SWF, so many notifications and aura reading perks for both sides.”

    * You

    They don’t clutter the HUD, and as you said most people should know by the time they’re out of Rank 15, so why does it matter?

    They’re mostly quality of life than anything else.

And if you weren’t referring to aura reading perks when talking about dumbing down the game, why did you even mention them?

Moreover on the topic of:

“there’s no way to close the gap between SWF and solo”

    * You

    Yes there is, most of the suggestions in this post strictly benefit Solo Survivors and thus shortens gap between them. Quite significantly, I might add.

    And whether or not you think SWF is broken or not, it’s been here for quite some time and is likely here to stay. They’ve said they don’t have the tech at the moment to specifically nerf SWF lobbies because they don’t track whether a lobby is Solo or SWF.

So the logical alternative is to instead bring Solos up to SWF’s power.

It sounds like you are too new to realise that each time they add something like the suggestions it removes tension in a game, why wonder if you need to hide when you hear a heartbeat when you know where they are? Why go for a save when you know where they are? All this does is allow all the survivors not only swf stay on gens for shorter matches.

This is not the way to fix the problem making it even more of an m1 simulator, it just means we know everything instead of having to be aware, sounds really fun doesn't it?

The thing is you don't seem to think about how each one off these buffs also inherently buff swf, the one thing say has that they will never be able to give is on the fly updates, the killer us going to shack, I used that pallet, no pallets left around the harvester, open the gate I have dead hard etc, to think some notifications and aura perks will bring solo anywhere near the same level is laughable.

Of course SWF is here to stay who said otherwise? they actually do track swf v solo hence the stats they released on percentages on who plays what, having the tech and hand and it not being available are two different things, the tech us out there they just need to get it in place.

The logical point to fix anything broken is to fix what is not every single thing around it, would you change 6 circuit boards, replace a whole cistern to fix a faulty pipe? Or would you look to fix which is broken? 

The game is not tense and never has been.

    Dead by Daylight is not a horror game. It’s a cooperative survival game where you do gens and run around pallets.

    >

    It's not cooperative. Your success does not depend on the success of your team whatsoever. This is an opportunistic game.

    Cooperative in the sense that you work together on a team. But yes, there’s a lot of stuff that incentivizes ruining your team for personal gain.

    That's the thing. You aren't a team. The idea is that you are 4 individual Survivors all doing their best to survive and you just happen to be in the same situation.

    You never even have to "work" with your team, in fact, it's a completely valid strategy to lure the Killer to your team to get him off your back (as long as you are not working together with the Killer, there is a difference)

  • ModernFable ModernFable
    weirdkid5 said:

    @ModernFable 

    That's the thing. You aren't a team. The idea is that you are 4 individual Survivors all doing their best to survive and you just happen to be in the same situation.

    You never even have to "work" with your team, in fact, it's a completely valid strategy to lure the Killer to your team to get him off your back (as long as you are not working together with the Killer, there is a difference)

    Yes I understand, and that’s a different problem that would need to be addressed separately.

    Also, please: just reply to my comment.

    I don’t know what you’re doing, but your comment looks like a skyscraper full of previous conversations.
  • twistedmonkey twistedmonkey
    ModernFable said:
    The game is not tense and never has been.

    Dead by Daylight is not a horror game. It’s a cooperative survival game where you do gens and run around pallets.

    Trying to keep the “immersion” in an online survival game like this is kind of a fruitless effort. Especially when Survivors in neon skirts and cowboy hats are teabagging supernatural Killers in santa and school girl outfits. And just because having more info on hand sounds less fun to you, doesn’t mean it does to others.

    I've stated multiple times that unless there’s voice coms, then SWF will still be greater than Solos. This is true, but there’s still a lot that can be down to reduce the gap. Even if they don’t have on the fly updates, these changes will reduce the ginormous difference.

    They track SWF for stats, however they do not have the code in place to make nerfs specifically for SWF lobbies.

    Moreover you’re specifically identifying SWF as a problem. Considering it’s not going anywhere and it would require creating new assets to change it directly, it seems more logical to simply buff Solos. The assets are already here and the changes could be applied much faster.
    Says who? You personally! The game being tense is subjective.

    It's a game where you choose how you play and what you get out off it, some players run around, some play stealthy others do gens and want to get out, there is not set rules on what someone feel a when playing it's a personal feeling hence for me personally i believe getting more info is bad for the game as it makes it less challenging.

    You did say they don't track who is swf and who is solo in your other post so what else may you be mistaken about? They may not have the tools right now to change the lobbies seperately but what's to say they aren't looking into it? No one ever thought dedicated servers would come after all.

    Of course I am identifying swf as a problem, you yourself identified the same problem or thia whole thread would be pointless, assets can be acquired easily but you are miaaing a fundamental flaw in buffing solo as since solo can never be comparable to swf in terms of info without changing swf they can not make killers strong enough v both as solo will always be disadvantaged.

    Do you think it is right to make those who play the game as it was intended the ones who get the short end of the stick? I don't so bringing the and fixing the actual problem into line is the most logical from that standpoint.
  • ModernFable ModernFable
    twistedmonkey said:
    ModernFable said:
    The game is not tense and never has been.

    Dead by Daylight is not a horror game. It’s a cooperative survival game where you do gens and run around pallets.

    Trying to keep the “immersion” in an online survival game like this is kind of a fruitless effort. Especially when Survivors in neon skirts and cowboy hats are teabagging supernatural Killers in santa and school girl outfits. And just because having more info on hand sounds less fun to you, doesn’t mean it does to others.

    I've stated multiple times that unless there’s voice coms, then SWF will still be greater than Solos. This is true, but there’s still a lot that can be down to reduce the gap. Even if they don’t have on the fly updates, these changes will reduce the ginormous difference.

    They track SWF for stats, however they do not have the code in place to make nerfs specifically for SWF lobbies.

    Moreover you’re specifically identifying SWF as a problem. Considering it’s not going anywhere and it would require creating new assets to change it directly, it seems more logical to simply buff Solos. The assets are already here and the changes could be applied much faster.
    Says who? You personally! The game being tense is subjective.

    You did say they don't track who is swf and who is solo in your other post so what else may you be mistaken about?

    Of course I am identifying swf as a problem, you yourself identified the same problem or thia whole thread would be pointless, assets can be acquired easily but you are miaaing a fundamental flaw in buffing solo as since solo can never be comparable to swf in terms of info without changing swf they can not make killers strong enough v both as solo will always be disadvantaged.

    Do you think it is right to make those who play the game as it was intended the ones who get the short end of the stick?
    Yes it’s subjective, that’s why holding back balance changes for the sake of preserving a specific type of “immersion” is pointless.

    Maybe some people want an edge of their seat tense experience, while others want a generator repair simulator.

    I am viewing it as a problem in the sense it makes balance difficult. It’s here to stay, so might as well ways for it to coexist.

    You’re viewing as a disease that needs to be cut out.

    And what do you mean:

    “Do you think it is right to make those who play the game as it was intended the ones who get the short end of the stick”?

    I assume you’re referring to Solo players? If so then that brings us back to the first point of subjectivity. 

    SWF was planned before release as said on stream, but was delayed. So it was always intended.

    And Solos aren’t getting the short end of the stick. They’re receiving massive buffs.

    Unless you’re referring to the “immersion”, which we already established is subjective.
  • weirdkid5 weirdkid5

    @ModernFable sorry, phone replies get messy sometimes

  • twistedmonkey twistedmonkey
    ModernFable said:
    Yes it’s subjective, that’s why holding back balance changes for the sake of preserving a specific type of “immersion” is pointless.

    Maybe some people want an edge of their seat tense experience, while others want a generator repair simulator.

    I am viewing it as a problem in the sense it makes balance difficult. It’s here to stay, so might as well ways for it to coexist.

    You’re viewing as a disease that needs to be cut out.

    And what do you mean:

    “Do you think it is right to make those who play the game as it was intended the ones who get the short end of the stick”?

    I assume you’re referring to Solo players? If so then that brings us back to the first point of subjectivity. 

    SWF was planned before release as said on stream, but was delayed. So it was always intended.

    And Solos aren’t getting the short end of the stick. They’re receiving massive buffs.

    Unless you’re referring to the “immersion”, which we already established is subjective.
    Subjective hence multiple viewpoints on the subject.

    The balance changes need to be done right not like in the past with band aid fixes which is what has been happening.

    Right now after all the changes so far solo doesn't even come close to closing the gap on swf, that says to myself its not working by trying to change the game around one problem.

    I am not viewing swf as a disease that needs to be cut I am stating it as a problem, if you didn't view it as a problem yourself this whole this whole discussion wouldn't be needed.

    How is it subjective that solo would be disadvantaged by balancing the game around swf? Since you yourself stated they can never completely make solo the same unless they added voice chat then if they balanced the game around swf with anything but that solo would inherently be at a disadvantage, if they didnt completely balance it around swf then killers are disadvantaged.

    So that is two sets of players not being able to compete at a lvl due to one set of players, so this points to the overall solution of balancing swf to fit in with those two players sets.

    Yes SWF was always intended to be apart of the game that's not what I was saying, the use of comms was not intended and how much it could changed the game was highly underestimated by the devs, hence solo PLAY the game as it was intended.

    Everything in a game is subjective to what one wants out of it, the one thing about a game though is it needs some sort of challenge to keep you wanting to play, if they make it too easy on either side then that challenge gets lost which has already been happening and you start to just go through the motions making it more and more mundane over time, that may be ok for someone with up to 100 hours but is it for those of us with hundreds of hours?
  • ModernFable ModernFable

    @twistedmonkey said:

    How is it subjective that solo would be disadvantaged by balancing the game around swf?

    Ah this seems to be the crux of our disagreement.

    You seem to view it that Dead by Daylight is balanced around Solo correct?

    I view it as already being balanced around Rank 20-10 SWFs, thus buffing Solo for said balance is not an issue in my eyes.

    Yes SWF was always intended to be apart of the game that's not what I was saying, the use of comms was not intended and how much it could changed the game was highly underestimated by the devs, hence solo PLAY the game as it was intended.

    You'd be correct in that Behavior didn't intend for voice coms, and that they underestimated how much voice coms affect SWF.

    However, they've also said on stream that whether or not there's a voice com built in: there's Xbox/PS party chat, Discord, or some other third party software. Behavior stated that you just can't stop players from communicating.

    Behavior has accepted that they either won't or shouldn't stop voice coms. So to me, this clearly means that action should be taken to reduce the gap between SWF and Solos, regardless of how much voice coms make a difference.

  • Chaoxide Chaoxide

    @thesuicidefox said:

    @ad19970 said:

    @thesuicidefox said:

    NO

    Solo survivor is just fine. We don't need to give them anything. If you have 4 top tier solo survivors it can be way harder than most SWF groups.

    What they should do is limit perk usage of SWF groups such that there is only ever 1 instance of a perk allowed. This puts the focus of SWF on team builds, which is what they should be doing anyway. Letting them all run DS/Adren/DH/SC is what makes SWF so overwhelming. It'd break up the meta a bit.

    And before someone says something stupid because they don't actually read the post, this only applies to SWF groups. If you come into a game solo, even if the other 3 players are in a group, you have no limits. You can do whatever you want.

    I just don't think many people will be happy if they are forced to use less perks because they are playing with friends. Might really hurt the game.

    Literally nothing you do will make everyone happy so you just have to pick something and bite the bullet. Your choices are buff solo or nerf SWF. And since solo is in the perfect spot right now, it makes the most sense to nerf SWF.

    And if sharing bothers you that much then get in the habit of playing solo more often.

    "Play solo more often" Basically youre saying "If you have a problem with it dont play with your friends on a game you enjoy" cause thats gonna help the lifespan of the game.

    "Solos in the perfect spot" I dont know what game youve been playing for the past year but all solo is right now is people rushing to unhook people they dont know for a easy pip and easy bloodpoints.

  • ModernFable ModernFable

    @weirdkid5 said:
    @ModernFable sorry, phone replies get messy sometimes

    I understand, I respond on my phone pretty often.

  • twistedmonkey twistedmonkey
    ModernFable said:

    @twistedmonkey said:

    How is it subjective that solo would be disadvantaged by balancing the game around swf?

    Ah this seems to be the crux of our disagreement.

    You seem to view it that Dead by Daylight is balanced around Solo correct?

    I view it as already being balanced around Rank 20-10 SWFs, thus buffing Solo for said balance is not an issue in my eyes.

    Yes SWF was always intended to be apart of the game that's not what I was saying, the use of comms was not intended and how much it could changed the game was highly underestimated by the devs, hence solo PLAY the game as it was intended.

    You'd be correct in that Behavior didn't intend for voice coms, and that they underestimated how much voice coms affect SWF.

    However, they've also said on stream that whether or not there's a voice com built in: there's Xbox/PS party chat, Discord, or some other third party software. Behavior stated that you just can't stop players from communicating.

    Behavior has accepted that they either won't or shouldn't stop voice coms. So to me, this clearly means that action should be taken to reduce the gap between SWF and Solos, regardless of how much voice coms make a difference.

    No I see DBD for the last few month trying to balance around comms which hasn't worked hence this thread.

    Yes BHVR have accepted voice chat in the game now but they have also stated they underestimated the impact it would have.

    That is where our opinion differs, my opinion is if you cannot fully balance the game by buffing solo so why not look at changing how swf is?

    Answer this, if they buff killers to compete with swf that means solo (as you agree they can never be buffed to the swf lvl) care disadvantaged, if they don't then killers can never truly be strong enough against swf, so what conclusion does this lead you too?

    For myself it says either solo or the killers will be the ones who get the short end of the stick with how they are tackling it, all the while swf the topic of this conversation is left alone, so why not look at brining them into line with what is and has always been working?

    As I said, for months they have been trying to buff solo and killers but we are still in a situation where swf are considered too strong and break the game, so all that has happened is we now don't have to think or be aware like we did.

    Imo they need to go directly to the problem and add in the ways to make it happen, for example a 4 man SWF they could add another gen or objective, cannot stack add-ons, items, certain perks.

    With swf they know if the others have certain perks but it's not simply about knowing those survivors have them but being able to make them work at the best times, solo will never be able coordinate on the fly like swf which is where it all falls over and keeps the balance issues intact and will always keep one of the player types weaker imo.
  • Chaoxide Chaoxide

    @twistedmonkey said:
    No the game has already been dumbed down enough due to SWF, so many notifications and aura reading perks for both sides.

    Why play a game, learn and get better when the devs will simply show us where to go and what's happening in every scenario.

    All these notifications should be removed once you reach rank 15 imo and you get out the learning zone. 

    "Dumbed down due to SWF" Thats the entire point of this post, it would bring the game closer to always feeling like a SWF or not much of a difference outside of player behavior, "dumbing" it down would make it far easier to balance the game in the future with changes like the ones suggested here implemented into the game.

  • ModernFable ModernFable

    @twistedmonkey said:

    @ModernFable

    No my disagreement is balancing everything around the obvious problem which you stated yourself can never be fully done.

    Yes BHVR have accepted voice chat in the game now but they have also stated they underestimated the impact it would have.

    That is where our opinion differs, my opinion is if you cannot fully balance the game by buffing solo why not look at changing how swf is?

    As I said, for months they have been trying to buff solo and killers and nothing is working, we are still in a situation where swf are considered too strong and break the game.

    It's a matter of accepting that games with any form of asymmetrical gameplay are impossible to truly balance, because it becomes a matter of opinion. Pong was perfectly balanced because there was no asymmetrical gameplay whatsoever.

    But that doesn't mean you shouldn't strive to make your game as fun and balanced as possible. Just because Behavior has failed to make SWF and Solo gameplay on a more even playing so far, doesn't mean they should give up.

  • Chaoxide Chaoxide

    @twistedmonkey said:
    ModernFable said:

    The game is not tense and never has been.

    Dead by Daylight is not a horror game. It’s a cooperative survival game where you do gens and run around pallets.

    Trying to keep the “immersion” in an online survival game like this is kind of a fruitless effort. Especially when Survivors in neon skirts and cowboy hats are teabagging supernatural Killers in santa and school girl outfits. And just because having more info on hand sounds less fun to you, doesn’t mean it does to others.

    I've stated multiple times that unless there’s voice coms, then SWF will still be greater than Solos. This is true, but there’s still a lot that can be down to reduce the gap. Even if they don’t have on the fly updates, these changes will reduce the ginormous difference.

    They track SWF for stats, however they do not have the code in place to make nerfs specifically for SWF lobbies.

    Moreover you’re specifically identifying SWF as a problem. Considering it’s not going anywhere and it would require creating new assets to change it directly, it seems more logical to simply buff Solos. The assets are already here and the changes could be applied much faster.

    Says who? You personally! The game being tense is subjective.

    It's a game where you choose how you play and what you get out off it, some players run around, some play stealthy others do gens and want to get out, there is not set rules on what someone feel a when playing it's a personal feeling hence for me personally i believe getting more info is bad for the game as it makes it less challenging.

    You did say they don't track who is swf and who is solo in your other post so what else may you be mistaken about? They may not have the tools right now to change the lobbies seperately but what's to say they aren't looking into it? No one ever thought dedicated servers would come after all.

    Of course I am identifying swf as a problem, you yourself identified the same problem or thia whole thread would be pointless, assets can be acquired easily but you are miaaing a fundamental flaw in buffing solo as since solo can never be comparable to swf in terms of info without changing swf they can not make killers strong enough v both as solo will always be disadvantaged.

    Do you think it is right to make those who play the game as it was intended the ones who get the short end of the stick? I don't so bringing the and fixing the actual problem into line is the most logical from that standpoint.

    "Who says they arent looking into it?, No one ever thought dedicated servers would come after all."

    I get your idea here that perhaps they are looking into future balance or ways to implement changes to swf, however you gotta understand that it took Behavior about 3 YEARS to announce dedicated servers which have been requested since DBD's release, and we still have about half a year until they even come out. So trying to say we should basically just wait is a absurd idea and doesnt help the game in the whole what so ever.

  • AlwaysInAGoodShape AlwaysInAGoodShape

    The only thing that post shows is that a small vocal minority on these forums wants a more immersed experience.

    And given how few replies that post had, a very very small vocal minority.

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/34144/public-poll-all-seeing-vs-blindness#latest

    7 Votes are in favour of increased communication and 11 are in favour of the opposite. That is a pretty big disparity and from experience alone I've seen that many people prefer that type of immersed experience.

    You assume a too small sample size and the results swinging in the other direction. You say that the voters of the immersed experience are a small vocal minority. So what data do you have on this being a minority?

  • Chaoxide Chaoxide

    @twistedmonkey said:
    ModernFable said:

    Yes it’s subjective, that’s why holding back balance changes for the sake of preserving a specific type of “immersion” is pointless.

    Maybe some people want an edge of their seat tense experience, while others want a generator repair simulator.

    I am viewing it as a problem in the sense it makes balance difficult. It’s here to stay, so might as well ways for it to coexist.

    You’re viewing as a disease that needs to be cut out.

    And what do you mean:

    “Do you think it is right to make those who play the game as it was intended the ones who get the short end of the stick”?

    I assume you’re referring to Solo players? If so then that brings us back to the first point of subjectivity. 

    SWF was planned before release as said on stream, but was delayed. So it was always intended.

    And Solos aren’t getting the short end of the stick. They’re receiving massive buffs.

    Unless you’re referring to the “immersion”, which we already established is subjective.

    Subjective hence multiple viewpoints on the subject.

    The balance changes need to be done right not like in the past with band aid fixes which is what has been happening.

    Right now after all the changes so far solo doesn't even come close to closing the gap on swf, that says to myself its not working by trying to change the game around one problem.

    I am not viewing swf as a disease that needs to be cut I am stating it as a problem, if you didn't view it as a problem yourself this whole this whole discussion wouldn't be needed.

    How is it subjective that solo would be disadvantaged by balancing the game around swf? Since you yourself stated they can never completely make solo the same unless they added voice chat then if they balanced the game around swf with anything but that solo would inherently be at a disadvantage, if they didnt completely balance it around swf then killers are disadvantaged.

    So that is two sets of players not being able to compete at a lvl due to one set of players, so this points to the overall solution of balancing swf to fit in with those two players sets.

    Yes SWF was always intended to be apart of the game that's not what I was saying, the use of comms was not intended and how much it could changed the game was highly underestimated by the devs, hence solo PLAY the game as it was intended.

    Everything in a game is subjective to what one wants out of it, the one thing about a game though is it needs some sort of challenge to keep you wanting to play, if they make it too easy on either side then that challenge gets lost which has already been happening and you start to just go through the motions making it more and more mundane over time, that may be ok for someone with up to 100 hours but is it for those of us with hundreds of hours?

    Ah the good old super challenging survivor aspect of dbd, the oh so difficult hold down one button or run around a area and drop a wooden board every so often. The embodiment of skill!!!!

  • ModernFable ModernFable

    @AlwaysInAGoodShape said:

    The only thing that post shows is that a small vocal minority on these forums wants a more immersed experience.

    And given how few replies that post had, a very very small vocal minority.

    7 Votes are in favour of increased communication and 11 are in favour of the opposite. That is a pretty big disparity and from experience alone I've seen that many people prefer that type of immersed experience.

    You assume a too small sample size and the results swinging in the other direction. You say that the voters of the immersed experience are a small vocal minority. So what data do you have on this being a minority?

    It is a minority in the sense that the vote was of 18 people, out of everyone here on these forums that's a very small amount. So just because 11 people voted against more communication isn't substantial enough to make any reasonable claim.

    Where's my data?

    On the front page of General Discussion alone, you spot more than 18 different names under "Started By" and "Most Recent."

    Want more data?

    How about the dozens of people joining the forums everyday?

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/activity

    Point is trying to make a claim based off of your insignificant 18 person sample size is absolutely ludicrous, especially when you consider that more people join the forums on a daily basis. So get out of here with your backwards and overblown attempts at trying to make your data seem more legitimate.

  • twistedmonkey twistedmonkey
    Chaoxide said:

    Ah the good old super challenging survivor aspect of dbd, the oh so difficult hold down one button or run around a area and drop a wooden board every so often. The embodiment of skill!!!!

    You know after all you replied your sort of proving my point which was to keep what little else we have intact or or as just that, holding m1 only without ever having to think or be aware anymore.
  • Chaoxide Chaoxide

    @twistedmonkey said:
    Chaoxide said:

    You know after all you replied your sort of proving my point which was to keep what little else we have intact or or as just that, holding m1 only without ever having to think or be aware anymore.

    My point was that there isnt any actual challenge to the game after you learn the basics there is a very small gap between the "great" players and the average players, the only real difference being is abusing exploits in the game.

    Making the game easier for newer players would NOT change this what so ever really, there is very little difficulty at all in the game having easier clarification for someone whos playing by themselves vs SWF wouldnt hinder this really it would still be about the same challenge thats ALREADY in the game but now making SOLO become closer to SWF in terms of gameplay.

  • twistedmonkey twistedmonkey
    ModernFable said:

    It's a matter of accepting that games with any form of asymmetrical gameplay are impossible to truly balance, because it becomes a matter of opinion. Pong was perfectly balanced because there was no asymmetrical gameplay whatsoever.

    But that doesn't mean you shouldn't strive to make your game as fun and balanced as possible. Just because Behavior has failed to make SWF and Solo gameplay on a more even playing so far, doesn't mean they should give up.

    As with all asymmetrical games, but they do need to make sure what they change doesn't affect the enjoyment of the game.

    They should always keep trying and they will, my worry and my opinion is that in the direction they are going the game is and will keep becoming less challenging even more of the m1 simulator than it already is, as in some respects we already know too much and it won't be long till that balance becomes an even more show where they are, dowed and hooked with not much hunt and chase gameplay left.
  • ModernFable ModernFable

    @twistedmonkey said:

    @ModernFable

    As with all asymmetrical games, but they do need to make sure what they change doesn't affect the enjoyment of the game.

    They should always keep trying and they will, my worry and my opinion is that in the direction they are going the game is and will keep becoming less challenging even more of the m1 simulator than it already is, as in some respects we already know too much and it won't be long till that balance becomes an even more show where they are, dowed and hooked with not much hunt and chase gameplay left.

    Well in my opinion moving into the direction of more information for Survivors and then buffing Killers in turn would be preferable to stagnating the game in its current state. I think there are a great number of ways they could make the game more challenging in other respects after the fact, but depriving Solo Survivors' information is something I'm personally against.

    At this point we're not arguing a specific point or area of balance, but rather purely game design philosophy. So I'm willing to agree to disagree, because I don't believe we're going to reach a compromise of beliefs.

  • ad19970 ad19970

    @Chaoxide said:

    @thesuicidefox said:

    @ad19970 said:

    @thesuicidefox said:

    NO

    Solo survivor is just fine. We don't need to give them anything. If you have 4 top tier solo survivors it can be way harder than most SWF groups.

    What they should do is limit perk usage of SWF groups such that there is only ever 1 instance of a perk allowed. This puts the focus of SWF on team builds, which is what they should be doing anyway. Letting them all run DS/Adren/DH/SC is what makes SWF so overwhelming. It'd break up the meta a bit.

    And before someone says something stupid because they don't actually read the post, this only applies to SWF groups. If you come into a game solo, even if the other 3 players are in a group, you have no limits. You can do whatever you want.

    I just don't think many people will be happy if they are forced to use less perks because they are playing with friends. Might really hurt the game.

    Literally nothing you do will make everyone happy so you just have to pick something and bite the bullet. Your choices are buff solo or nerf SWF. And since solo is in the perfect spot right now, it makes the most sense to nerf SWF.

    And if sharing bothers you that much then get in the habit of playing solo more often.

    "Play solo more often" Basically youre saying "If you have a problem with it dont play with your friends on a game you enjoy" cause thats gonna help the lifespan of the game.

    "Solos in the perfect spot" I dont know what game youve been playing for the past year but all solo is right now is people rushing to unhook people they dont know for a easy pip and easy bloodpoints.

    Well it depens on the team. Even solo survivor teams have the potential to be very organized. But kindred as base kit would be a welcome addition to the game.

  • twistedmonkey twistedmonkey
    Chaoxide said:

    My point was that there isnt any actual challenge to the game after you learn the basics there is a very small gap between the "great" players and the average players, the only real difference being is abusing exploits in the game.

    Making the game easier for newer players would NOT change this what so ever really, there is very little difficulty at all in the game having easier clarification for someone whos playing by themselves vs SWF wouldnt hinder this really it would still be about the same challenge thats ALREADY in the game but now making SOLO become closer to SWF in terms of gameplay.

    So you don't think the moments where you werent sure if they had NOED at the end of the match when someone injured went down mattered or the extra time it wasted even if only 15 seconds when a totem went off to find out it wasn't ruin, there are many more examples but those two are already lost, do you realise something a simple as seeing a notification was a nerf to those and any hex perks.

    It's not about making it harder for new players, I already said after you hit rank 15 remove notifications, the fact still remains without showing every pallet, where the killer is and coordination etc i believe they cannot bring solo anywhere near swf lvl and that can't change without comms which would be detrimental to this game with how toxic it already is.
  • twistedmonkey twistedmonkey
    ModernFable said:

    Well in my opinion moving into the direction of more information for Survivors and then buffing Killers in turn would be preferable to stagnating the game in its current state. I think there are a great number of ways they could make the game more challenging in other respects after the fact, but depriving Solo Survivors' information is something I'm personally against.

    At this point we're not arguing a specific point or area of balance, but rather purely game design philosophy. So I'm willing to agree to disagree, because I don't believe we're going to reach a compromise of beliefs.

    Believe me I used to think exactly the same way, I used to argue that it wasn't right to remove aspects of the game from those who bought it and wanted to play swf but over time it became evident nothing is really changing and it's became my opinion that it seems almost impossible to truly balance the game by making solo more like swf so killers can get buffed.

    But we just have different opinions on the matter that's all, who knows I hope I am wrong and you are right as it seems the direction the wish to go in.
  • ModernFable ModernFable
    twistedmonkey said:
    ModernFable said:

    Well in my opinion moving into the direction of more information for Survivors and then buffing Killers in turn would be preferable to stagnating the game in its current state. I think there are a great number of ways they could make the game more challenging in other respects after the fact, but depriving Solo Survivors' information is something I'm personally against.

    At this point we're not arguing a specific point or area of balance, but rather purely game design philosophy. So I'm willing to agree to disagree, because I don't believe we're going to reach a compromise of beliefs.

    but over time it became evident nothing is really changing
    I personally think the real problem is how slow Behavior is at implementing any sort of balance changes period.

    If Dead by Daylight had frequent updates akin to other games: testing and properly discussing the directions for the game moving forward would be much easier.

    Some may call me entitled, but most other Triple A, Double A, or even indie games have much more frequent updates.

    One of my biggest hopes for Dead by Daylight in 2019 is an expansion of the development team. Speed up the output of balance and content so the game can grow and just become better overall.
  • DexyIV DexyIV

    I like all of these except for the last one. The last part should be something that survivors need to figure out for themselves, and it is not hard to do so. For example, the piano music for Myers, the Jigsaw boxes for The Pig, the wooshing sound effect for the Wraith, and so on. The rest I agree with though.

    Additions to this I think should be general buffs to information relaying perks (Kindred, Aftercare, etc.) and a way to relay that you have a perk in effect (Resilience, Deliverance, etc.).

  • thesuicidefox thesuicidefox

    @ModernFable said:
    There’s a lot more ways that Behavior can buff Solo than nerf SWF.

    No there isn't. Anything you do to buff solo will also buff SWF. Solo is in a great spot right now. The game actually flows and is mostly balanced. SWF is too strong. There is no other option but to nerf SWF.

    Solo doesn't need any changes. SWF does. Yea it might upset some people, but it's really not that big of a deal to nerf SWF. The focus should be on TEAM builds. DBD is NOT a team game, contrary to what most survivors like to think. It only becomes a team game in SWF because you are explicitly all playing as a team. Therefore it makes sense to put some limits in place to force these players to play as a team rather than as individuals. You shouldn't be able to have 3 gen jockies and 1 DS guy that gets chased all game. That's OP AF. You should be forced to make sacrifices in some areas. 1 gen jockey, 1 saver/healer, 1 DS, and 1 support player (something like Leader/Vigil builds). That's balanced and fair.

    Fact is SWF is a cake walk right now. Whenever I play in a 4 man it's almost not a challenge. The only time we lose is when we just do stupid things and all die, or the killer gets some sort of really good snowball going that we can't recover, which is very rare. Most SWF games I play at LEAST 3 of us escape, if not all 4. Some games only 2, some more only 1, and maybe a handful we all die. When I play solo the games are 2-2 WAY more often, which is how it should be.

  • ModernFable ModernFable
    DexyIV said:

    I like all of these except for the last one. The last part should be something that survivors need to figure out for themselves, and it is not hard to do so.

    I’m aware, there are many situations where indentifying the Killer is very quick. But that doesn’t change the fact that in SWF, once 1 person knows, the whole team knows.

    So then Solo should know as well.

    That’s what these changes are all about, giving Solo all the info SWF has for free.
  • ModernFable ModernFable
    DexyIV said:

    Additions to this I think should be general buffs to information relaying perks (Kindred, Aftercare, etc.) and a way to relay that you have a perk in effect (Resilience, Deliverance, etc.).


    How would you go about improving how perks are relayed?
  • Paddy4583 Paddy4583
    😑😑😑
  • ModernFable ModernFable
    Paddy4583 said:
    😑😑😑
    Not a fan of one of the changes? Or buffing Solos in general?
  • ModernFable ModernFable
    Tsulan said:
    I assume that after these important survivor buffs, killers get heavily buffed.
    Of course there would be buffs after the fact, that’s the whole point of of this.

    But do you have anything in mind?
  • Entità Entità

    Very interesting! I'd try it as soon as possible! :)

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