Another survivor perk nerfed to the ground. Thanks killer mains!

TheDavidKingMain

Why are survivors just not allowed to have strong perks anymore? This is actually ridiculous that killer mains have such control over the community that that they can get shoulder the burden, an anti tunnel perk with 2 SIGNIFICANT DOWNSIDES, nerfed before it even hits live servers.

Can’t say I’m surprised though, we all saw this happen so many times before. DS, dead hard, MFT, ADRENALINE! (seriously why did ADRENALINE need a nerf????) Why even buy the new survivors when their perks are so bad?

Coffeecrashing

@jesterkind said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3848222#Comment_3848222

You're kind of avoiding the question, though.

Does a team of survivors trying to stack StB on one survivor affect the killer when they chase literally anyone else?

The point is that it'll only work there if the killer's tunnelling, which is where it's supposed to work. All the killer has to do is not tunnel and they no longer have to deal with three extra hook states on one survivor.

The point is it widens the gap between solo q and SWF too much. 

One of the biggest double standards on these forums, is many people will demand buffs for survivors to bridge the gap between solo q and SWF…. but these same people won't want nerfs to survivors even if they rarely would affect solo q, and would mostly only affect SWF.

Because really, removing STB stacking on the same survivor would rarely affect solo q at all, so it's fine. It's 99% targeting SWFs that are purposely having multiple people run this perk.

jesterkind

@Coffeecrashing said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3848315#Comment_3848315

The point is it widens the gap between solo q and SWF too much. 

One of the biggest double standards on these forums, is many people will demand buffs for survivors to bridge the gap between solo q and SWF…. but these same people won't want nerfs to survivors even if they rarely would affect solo q, and would mostly only affect SWF.

Because really, removing STB stacking on the same survivor would rarely affect solo q at all, so it's fine. It's 99% targeting SWFs that are purposely having multiple people run this perk.

Not really. A perk existing that SWF can use better than solo queue doesn't really affect the gap that much just as a starter, and in this particular instance, solo queue can still use the perk, so it's not a big gap even in that context.

Also, why would the response there be to nerf the perk in the scenario where it's supposed to work? Wouldn't the more reasonable solution to that proposed problem be to buff the perk for solo queue so they can also use it to properly stave off tunnelling?

Because, again, I have to ask: Does this tactic affect a killer that isn't tunnelling? This is an anti-tunnel perk, so it's supposed to be strong in scenarios where the killer is tunnelling. If you weaken that, what's it good for?

TheSubstitute

@UndeddJester said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3847692#Comment_3847692

Well fair point, though to play Devil's Advocate it's quite tricky to make a perk like this be useful in soloQ and not abusable by SWF.

The goal was to make a perk that allowed transfer of hook states. This at base is EXTREMELY strong, like Old Borrowed Time level strong. So how do you do it?

Well now you have basically 2 options: -

• You allow the full strength and potential of the hook trade ability and give it a huge downside/risk so that regardless of SoloQ or SWF the killer can really punish them hard (this is what BHVR opted for). Sadly this means SoloQ tends to get punished much harder than SWF.
• You stack a huge number of conditions on it similar to DS, so the perks impact is massively neutered and very situational. E.g. each player can only have a hook stage traded either way a single time. (2 possible total per survivor team).

The latter would be complained about just as much since it would massively nerf the potential of the perk, and for SoloQ again, likely would not really stop insistent tunneling... so BHVR went the former route.

I am a believer that a sufficiently skilled set of soloQ players can play like a SWF.

I know that SoloQ has a disadvantage, and that is a byproduct of the facts that information in DBD is very valuable, but players who exploit all the knowledge available to them can effectively play like SWF. Most people don't, but they can.

So to my mind, you can't make a perk with power such as this a foolproof perk that any goomba can use freely, cause then you get the Borrowed Time/Decisive Strike/Mettle of Man situations.

How you reign perks like this in is difficult, but they absolutely must be reigned in.

Even a SWF, though, can't play as effectively as they normally do without voice comms (which I don't want in DbD either). I think it was Hens' group that did that with Otzdarva and, while they did well, they didn't perform as well as they normally do when they use voice comms. I'm fine with that.

That's a side note, though, as my responses are discussing the actual state of public matches overall and not the 1 in 100 outliers. The vast majority of public matches are against solos or perhaps 2 person SWFs and this perk is useless in them.

What I would much prefer, however, is changes to base game mechanics where gen defense is much stronger while all survivors are alive and then changes to buffs to gen repair once a survivor dies to punish tunnelling, reward spreading hooks and hopefully make 2 or 3Ks more of the norm and 4Es and 4Ks the least common outcomes. However, that's also a side note but it would combat the two most common complaints of Killers and Survivors; gen speed and tunnelling by helping each side when they're at their weakest.

As it is though as of today and away from hypotheticals the perk is bad. While I can't speak to 4 person SWF games with highly coordinated gamers (who probably aren't even the majority of 4 person SWFs subset as many 4 person SWFs are just people goofing around) for solos the perk is useless. It needs a change to actually be worth running for the majority of people purchasing the chapter.

TheSubstitute

@Shack_gen_biopod said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3845918#Comment_3845918

https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/Q4HJCBS6XX1X/image.png

Have you maybe considered that the forums is an echo chamber consisting of ragebait, survivor opinions, and very rare actual decent discussion? Or does that only apply to reddit and twitter?

People thinking STB isn't the best surv perk currently are massively self reporting that they aren't good enough to imagine how it plays out when the survivor team has a brain.

Or they're reflecting the reality of public matches and the people who are self-reporting are those who have crutched so much on tunnelling and camping they're in a skill bracket where their chase, game awareness, etc skills are so underdeveloped they have to rely on tunnelling and camping to win and that's why think this is a strong perk outside of a few niche scenarios.

NarkoTri1er

@TheDavidKingMain said:

Why are survivors just not allowed to have strong perks anymore? This is actually ridiculous that killer mains have such control over the community that that they can get shoulder the burden, an anti tunnel perk with 2 SIGNIFICANT DOWNSIDES, nerfed before it even hits live servers.

Can’t say I’m surprised though, we all saw this happen so many times before. DS, dead hard, MFT, ADRENALINE! (seriously why did ADRENALINE need a nerf????) Why even buy the new survivors when their perks are so bad?

so Deliverance, Resurgence, Off the Record, Reassurance and dozens of other perks don't exist?

Additionally, StB is still very strong and Exposed status effect literally does nothing when person using it has chase skills

SweetbutaPsycho

@Sandt1985 said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3846805#Comment_3846805

"And not because one side screamed the loudest on the forums or on Reddit."

Skull Merchant 2.0 would like a word.

Skull merchant had one of the highest kill rates in the entire game before her nerf tbf. This kill rate got absolutely inflated by many survivors instantly giving up and suiciding on hook. But thats a story that the numbers dont tell. The numbers just said, that her kill rate is too high and thats why she was nerfed into the ground.

Same with billy. Noone complained about Billy but he had a pretty high kill rate before his changes (that very many people didnt like, survivors and killers alike) and where there was a huge outcry on the forums and reddit etc. He still got nerfed by his new overheat system cause the numbers said that he should.

SidneysBane1996

@Firellius said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3846569#Comment_3846569

Question though: what's the benefit?

Because taking someone else's hookstate, barring some altruism gimmick, doesn't benefit you unless the target is getting tunnelled. But a tunnelling killer is likely to return to hook upon unhook, in which case this perk gives exposed for a cheaper down, at which point you are on death hook.

It's effectively an anti-tunnel perk, but the exposed effect benefits tunnelling killers disproportionately, defeating the perk's purpose.

Because if the Killer targets the unhooker, not the person who just got unhooked, they aren't tunnelling. That isn't tunnelling, that is spreading hooks, the opposite of tunnelling.