Can we look back and have a serious discussion about the past, current and future killer reworks?

Elephantwarlord

Let's be real, the past reworks are absolute dog piss. The killers I'm mentioning are Trickster, Hillbilly, Twins, Knight, Freddy, Sadako, and now Skull merchant.

How many times did Sadako and Skull Merchant received a rework AND still failed miserably?

The only outlier was probably Hillbilly. Mind-blowing, right? No, because survivors absolutely despise the Hillbilly after his rework and he's about to get his nerfs on October due to complaints. The nerfs in the PTB received negative feedback by Hillybilly mains and based Survivor mains alike. It's the same way how the Skull Merchant got complained about her power but the nerfs made her the worst killer in the game. Yes, worse than Freddy Krueger, Trapper and Michael Myers. None of the killers received such hefty nerfs before. We all know Freddy got reworked and then nerfed to Hell, then they left him for years but this is new because Skull Merchant gets a huge nerf and then she gets reworked in late 2025. You leave a killer to an unplayable state for more than a year, Behaviour. Do you realize that?

The Twins is a sad case. She was getting a rework but ultimately got scrapped and left Charlotte and Victor in the bin. People have waited for a long time only to become disappointed. Also Twins power can become disabled permanently thanks to a bug.

Trickster rework is not successful either. Nobody likes his power now. Why would you pick him over Huntress where she does 1000x better than Trickster?

Knight has so many bugs and restrictions that's it's not fun to play as him. 3X depletion rate? What. Not one power besides Knight has a power that does that.

I'm not looking forward to Freddy, Skull Merchant and Myers rework. (Confirmed by bhvr but they haven't said when they are getting reworked)

UndeddJester

@GeneralV said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3810059#Comment_3810059

I'm sorry, friend, I got caught up in the discussion here and forgot to reply to your comment.

Please don't say these things about yourself, my friend, you were not annoying or anything like that. You saw an idea that was open to feedback, you voiced your thoughts and that feedback helped me! We had a good discussion about it, there is nothing wrong with that.

Don't be so harsh with yourself :)

Too kind 🤘😁🤘

I've kinda come around to OG Freddy. I have watched an old Otzdarva vid to see it in action, but couple of games isn't enough really to judge it by. For anyone else interested though:

https://youtu.be/0OgCvfzNyHc?si=IWeIxFN3Dq3IeM7B

The only things I would change would be preference changes in aid of selling Freddy and the dreamworld a little more. I would personally like:

• To actually use the wake up mechanic. No version of Freddy makes it worth doing it, and for OG Freddy missing a skillcheck just makes this mechanic redundant.
• In the same breathe make it a little less common to bounce in and out of the dream, and require more investement for both sides. Freddy passing by and yoinking into the dream is kinda pointless once survivors know you can just miss a skillcheck to get back out (especially via self care to think of Asian servers). The incapacitated does help, but being grabbed into the Dream should be an "oh crap" moment, not something where Freddy yoinks and forgets and the survivor goes "oh well" and poops a skillcheck to leave the dream. I'd prefer more of a notion of the survivor "falling asleep", and it being unclear when its gonna happen.
• In line with the previous change, make the TP a bigger part of his kit, and be an altermative medium for pulling people into the Dream if Freddyvguesses right... can you imagine getting yoinked into the Dream after seeing the blood spew and Freddy arrives to chase you while shouting "Come to Freddy!" or something? That would be awesome... extra points if he climbs out of the actual generator itself 😏😏😏😏
• Since I'd be aiming to bounce between the dream less, I'd tone down his monstrous action penalty a little... I feel like his slowdown should be more consistent (my main gripe vs. skillcheck rng), and I can see some potentially annoying 3 gen strategies.

I did have my old idea of blending modern microsleep in with Freddy's dream yoink, keeping current micro sleep progress hidden and using charges to try and hit the above points... (I won't dredge it up again since were still talking concept), but these are the only things I would consider addressing on OG Freddy's design.

UndeddJester

@Alionis said:

The wiki didn't remove the old power, it moved it to its own page: deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Dream_Demon

I'm guessing it'll do that for other killer powers too down the line.

Ahhh fair,it doesn't help that the link for "Dream Demon" on Freddy's page takes you to the Power Page instead xD

Well sluethed that man 🫡

unknown

This content has been removed.

jajay119

I still can’t get over that they buffed Huntress - even huntress mains seemed flabbergasted by that.

jasonq500

Sadako in my eye from her 3rd version is a huge success to me as she's somewhat back to her first gameplay design

What I'd argue that she never needed to be reworked in the first place when sadako 2.0 existed

Langweilig

@GeneralV said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3810131#Comment_3810131

He was nerfed mostly because of complaints from people who had never played DBD before. Mathieu Cote himself regretted that nerf, as people didn't even have time to learn how to play against him.

There was never a need to change his power extensively.

What I did was keep the teleport and add the Incapacitated status effect during the Dream Transition, which in my opinion as an Old Freddy main fixes the few issues he had.

I don’t understand why they didn’t just undo their change, when they say themself it was a bad change.

Langweilig

@jasonq500 said:

Sadako in my eye from her 3rd version is a huge success to me as she's somewhat back to her first gameplay design

What I'd argue that she never needed to be reworked in the first place when sadako 2.0 existed

While I like her current version more than the second version, I wish we would have gotten her first version back. I miss that TVs were not always turned off, no TV auras and her good old addons. Her addons feel so outdated now and like they are only good when having passive condemned, which we do not have anymore. Also ring drawing and old iri tape should return. I really dislike that they straight up removed those two. She was so much more fun back then

jasonq500

@Langweilig said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3810546#Comment_3810546

While I like her current version more than the second version, I wish we would have gotten her first version back. I miss that TVs were not always turned off, no TV auras and her good old addons. Her addons feel so outdated now and like they are only good when having passive condemned, which we do not have anymore. Also ring drawing and old iri tape should return. I really dislike that they straight up removed those two.

I wouldn't disapprove about her first alteration to return from her kit with the quality of life she's received, as for iri tape return as it once was I don't entirely agree on in my opinion

Langweilig

@jasonq500 said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3810584#Comment_3810584

I wouldn't disapprove about her first alteration to return from her kit with the quality of life she's received, as for iri tape return as it once was I don't entirely agree on in my opinion

Why don’t you want iri tape back?

Yes her first version with all the buffs and QOL’s would be a dream.

jasonq500

@Langweilig said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3810602#Comment_3810602

Why don’t you want iri tape back?

Yes her first version with all the buffs and QOL’s would be a dream.

Back when sadako's tv respawn time was 100 seconds, it was absolutely an necessity to use, but since they reduced it heavily to 45 seconds, I honestly think there's no reason for old iri tape to be brought back

but if old iri tape is brought back, I think it should either have a downside, or just nerf the numbers of tv to turn back on

100PercentBPMain

I'm a console player and even I mourn the loss of Trickster...

All I ever play are 115 m1 killers but hate Huntress. I rarely played him, like once a week but he scratched an itch

Langweilig

@jasonq500 said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3810673#Comment_3810673

Back when sadako's tv respawn time was 100 seconds, it was absolutely an necessity to use, but since they reduced it heavily to 45 seconds, I honestly think there's no reason for old iri tape to be brought back

but if old iri tape is brought back, I think it should either have a downside, or just nerf the numbers of tv to turn back on

Shure it would need some changes, but the overall concept of it was great. If we get her first version back I would make it turn on 2-3 TVs upon hit (was 4) or on the current version your condemned would only get spread around one TV and again 2-3Tv’s turn on upon hit.

This is my idea of a revert and some additional buffs, that could also be brought to the current version.

@Langweilig said:

My three topics are chase buffs (flicker and tp), a revert of two aspects and addons (changes/ideas).

Chase/flicker buffs:

I think her flicker is a really cool ability, but not quite useful in most cases. I‘m trying to change that.

(Is the invisibility still bugged? If yes, please fix that behavior. Thanks)

• The otherworld visible duration gets reduced to 1s or 1,2s (was1,5s)

Through that change her invisibility would happen more often and make keeping track of her more difficult. Currently this is not really the case and it is very easy to know where she is located in chase. It would allow for smother and more fluid mindgames as well and maybe encourage more players to use that part of her power more. The time you have to wait for getting invisible again often discourages me to use it.

• The lullaby range decreased to 12-18m (was 24m) and please remove the directional part of it

It is really frustrating to have a stealth power that simply does not work. Like 90% of my opponents notice the lullaby in the visual heartbeat sensor and run instantly away before I came even anywhere close to them. Then the directional part of it always tells survivors where I will come from, so that they don‘t have a chance at running into me and it makes mindgames as her really frustrating when survivors have constant wall hacks through the sound of it. That was one of the big changes you did to dredge, please do this for her too.

• In Sadakos post manifest flicker the red stain is hidden or she is undetectable for the flickering duration (new)

A small change to make her flicker a little bit better. The red stain often gives you completely away and makes using the ability rather difficult, especially when you want to focus on using the invisibility in the right moments instead of focusing on hiding the red stain.

• She flickers for 4s after crawling out of an TV (new)

This is a nice thematic change she does in the movies and it would be nice seeing it in the game. I don‘t think it will have much use, but in some cases it might help. This is more a change for the horror theme of her.

• Demanifest flicker and manifest flicker get the same values, which means she is invisible for 1,2s after manifesting like when she is in demanifested.

Mainly to merge her two addons (reikos watch and newspaper), which both do exactly the same thing and it would just be a nice little buff

• Her invisibility does not deactivate through breaking pallets and vaulting windows

When playing shack I often feel like my ability does literally nothing and like it should work for the window at least. I tried serveral times vaulting it while being invisible only to find out it does not work and I see no reason why it shouldn‘t. Other killers have a lot better abilities than this could ever be.

Teleport/chase buff:

-Please remove TV auras!!!!!! (Very important) or give me an addon for it

I know what your intentions were when you added them, but they did not solve the issue you wanted to solve of survivors not knowing where and how to find TVs (which wasn‘t hard before). Most of them who struggled still ignore and do nothing against her power, but it makes playing her a nightmare. You can never get close to anyone with the teleport like you could before you added them. They always prerun half an hour ago in the opposite direction while you crawl out of TVs, because they see you from a mile away through walls, which forces you to ALWAYS run bloody fingernails to not have a completly useless teleport. I remember in the past how good and fun it was to chase people through the TVs and what it is now! (It’s not fun anymore). Secondly it makes survivors disable most of her TVs all of the time against survivors who know what they are doing, which isn’t fun as well to have no teleport points. Last but not least it hurts the horror feeling of this character when you always know where she will come from. PLEASE BEHAVIOR THIS IS MY BIGGEST PAIN POINT WHEN PLAYING HER, PLEASE SOLVE THOSE TWO PROBLEMS IT WASN‘T ALWAYS LIKE THAT AND SHE WAS A LOT MORE FUN IN HER FIRST VERSION BECAUSE OF THAT!

• Tape insertion speed and the speed for turning off TVs is 1,5-2s (0,5s/1s)

A thing I liked doing in the past was interrupting survivors when they want to put in tapes or turn off TVs, but currently the interacting time with TVs is so low, that it is almost impossible to tp to the TVs in time. This is especially frustrating when playing aura builds and seeing them at the TVs and not being able to demanifest in time in order to get there. It’s not really about interrupting the removal of condemned for me, but this would be another use.

• TVs no longer turn off after projection (was 45s)

I don‘t see why not. Survivors can always turn off TVs for a long period of time and even without the TV auras TVs are loud and have an effect around them, so there is enough things that limit her tp already. She even has a cooldown in form of switching into the otherworld mode.

A revert of two aspects to make her more similar to her first version and some buffs to some of her issues back then

I never really liked that she got reworked since she has been my favorite killer back then. Ever since she was no longer as fun to play as she once was. All the focus was on making condemned super annoying and making her teleport trash in the process, which was my favorite part of her power. Don‘t get me wrong condemned is nice, but it should not be the only focus of her. The problem is her current mechanics of global condemned and having no downside to holding tapes forces turning off TVs non stop, which removes all teleport points near survivors. I don‘t think there is a way to have a good teleport with the current mechanics, which you (behavior) would go, so I suggest reverting those two aspects. (One way to solve it in the current version could be my second addon idea)

• Passive condemned: Every 25s of holding a tape you get 1 stack condemned

This is one of the main reasons why I will always prefer the first version. Survivors were not encouraged to grab tapes at all and I had all the TVs available most of the time even tho the cooldown was long. Chasing with her was so much more fun as the focus was not only on making her condemned well (and annoying) even tho I would say her condemned is in worse spot than it would be with 1.0 mechanics. I loved teleporting around and chasing survivor with the TVs, which is no longer possible/viable way of playing her if you want to win.

• Only one TV spreads condemned

Her condemned is only slowdown now if you don‘t play against beginners, who ignore TVs all the time. Then again making it global or all TVs, forces survivors to turn off all the TVs near them, which is extremely unfun. Lastly your own skill does not matter since she is all about the other side misplaying, you can‘t really impact much if they play right and it‘s not good giving the other side so much power over your ability. It‘s also not good Design to have an opressive ability like that, which is only oppressive against people who have no clue what‘s going on.

• Condemned gets spread in a 20-24m range (was16m)

To make it easier to spread condemned stacks, which could easily be outrunned back then, because it gets spread at the end of crawling out of the TVs animation.

• Hooking a survivor gives all other survivors 1 stack of condemned (new)

To encourage hooking over slugging and to actually chase someone instead of tp spamming. While I don‘t have a problem with slugging, especially on a killer that has no strong chase ability, both ways of playing her aren‘t really fun for the survivors. Instead of forcing everyone to play a certain way, I want to encourage playing in a more fun way instead of removing it and punishing all who play her even tho they didn‘t play that way just seems wrong to me. (This could probably even get added into the current version‘s basekit.) It would obviously also be a nice buff to condemned, which many say was too weak back then, but I think with those changes it would have been in a good spot.

Addon changes

• 🔴Iri videotape: Hitting a Survivor within 8 seconds after Manifesting turns on the last 2-3 TVs turned off (revert) - My favorite addon of all time in this game. With the live version it would need a compensation nerf, which makes that you only spread condemned only around one TV. I would also make current iri tape basekit without the negatives, which is a cool addon, but no worth being iri.
• 🟢Well water might need a new effect, because the buff to the post manifest flicker might make it irrelevant
• 🟢Ring drawing: Condemned Survivors spread their Condemnation to other Survivors, who complete a Healing action on an injured Survivor. - The old effect was a lot cooler/stronger/uniquer and the current effect should be basekit and not be on an addon, which I suggested in the reverting part. Please bring back this old/cool addon.
• 🟢Rickety pinwheel: Survivors suffer from the obvious effect and hear no lullaby (new), when within 12-16m (was 8m) of any TV. This effect lingers for 1-2seconds (new). Turning off TVs halves its range (new). - This addon got rarely used, because it doesn‘t really activate in the live version since survivors are encouraged to take tapes and in her former version it was ok, but not really useful since you are normally not walking around the map outside of her power. The range was also too small and often didn‘t even reach gens.
• 🟡Yoichis fishing net: Reduces the time it takes Survivors to acquire another stack of Condemned by -12 % when holding a tape (revert to its old effect) - The current effect does not really activate often and the older one was a lot more useful. We also do not really need 2 blindness addons (revert focused addon change)
• 🟡Sea-soaked cloth: Survivors suffer from the blindness Status effect when within 12-16m (was 8m) of any TV (was only turned on TVs). This effect lingers for 1-2s (new).Turning off TV’s halves its range (new). - The range was too small to be useful and in live TVs are always turned off, so it doesn‘t activate much. 
• 🟡Reikos watch gets a new effect and its effect becomes part of 🔘old newspaper. I never understood why there is a diffrence between demanifest flicker and manifest flicker in terms of addons and power. Old newspaper would still be +33% for manifest and demanifest flicker invisibility 
• 🟡Clumb of hair: Reduces the threshold for full Invisibility while Demanifasted by 10-14m (was 6m) and this effect lingers for 1s (new) -The 6m don‘t really matter. The addon could be really cool if it wasn‘t that weak.
• 🔘Cabin sign and 🟡well stone need both new effects since their effects are too minor or they need a big buff and cabin sign would do nothing if there is no cooldown after projection.

Addon ideas/suggestions (the colors represent the addon rarity)

• The haste from protection gets turned into hinderd and given to survivors for the duration of the speed in a 16m range of the TV. - Would be a fun meme addon. 🔘/🟡
• Sadako can tp to a turned off TV and activates it afterwards again, she does not spread condemned when doing it. - Would be strong addon for mobility (if TV auras get removed [Please]) 🟢/🟣/🔴
• Every time a generator gets completed every survivor gets a stack of condemned - Another way to spread condemned, could maybe even be basekit if she gets reverted. 🟡/🟢
• At the start of a match she crawls out of a TV next to a survivor and the TVs are not on a 30s long cooldown - This would be nice get into chase quick at the start of a match addon. 🔘/🟡

I hope my feedback was helpful and hopefully she gets changes that make her more fun to play again soon.

Thanks for reading!

What do you think , please give some constructive feedback?

手帳の神様

@100PercentBPMain said:

I'm a console player and even I mourn the loss of Trickster...

All I ever play are 115 m1 killers but hate Huntress. I rarely played him, like once a week but he scratched an itch

i used to play trickster but no more..