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Why is BHVR so afraid to buff weak killers?

whickedchainsaw whickedchainsaw
in General Discussions

please explain this to me. Why are they so scared to buff them? u cant create an excuse with "think about the low mmr players!" when they are playing against killers in low mmr. everyone plays in their rank and it shouldn't stop you on buffing weak killers and set them on par with blight, nurse or wesker.

Tagged: Community ManagerDev

Comments

  • UnavailableName UnavailableName

    @Pulsar said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3481218#Comment_3481218

    What percentage of DbD's playerbase is "good"?

    Should those Killers all just be buffed to compete with good players and just have them totally curbstomp average players?

    Average players can and must improve. That's not by baby-sitting them that you will invite them to improve their skill level.

  • Pulsar Pulsar

    @UnavailableName said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3481224#Comment_3481224

    Average players can and must improve. That's not by baby-sitting them that you will invite them to improve their skill level.

    So, once again, do we just ######### them over?

    Let them have that crisp 20% escape rate so that high MMR Killers can....have more than a 61% Kill Rate?

  • rvzrvzrvz rvzrvzrvz

    Survivor got nerfed hard in 2022 already, at some point just accept that killers shouldn't win 100% of the time, solo escape rate is abysmal even swfs are manageable they're not all comp level, stop asking for nerfs constantly

  • For_The_People For_The_People

    @NerfedFreddy said:

    There are no weak killers. Killrate of any killer is solid. The game is still massively kiler-sided and is balanced a lot around m1 activity. Bloodlust, a lot of dead zones, lack of good or fair pallets make game still feels good, absolutely viable and a lot of times even easy as m1 killer. Basically all this mobility, anti-loop etc are just extra and over-on-top mechanics to make killer easy and overpoweringly fun. A lot of killer crutches - camping, tunneling, 3genning aren't fixed yet. You can succeed with any killer. "Weak killer" became just a meaningless buzzword. Important to note that you have option to not play "weak" killers

    This is such a good point - you can change killers to mitigate the perceived level of opposition/strategies employed but survivors do not.

    killers can employ different perks AND the killer power and abilities to go with it.

  • Worgen Worgen

    @Peanits said:

    I can chime in here.

    Being afraid has nothing to do with it, it's more to do with time management and priorities. Large scale Killer reworks require a huge amount of time between designers, programmers, and QA. In order to do these types of large Killer reworks, we need to sacrifice on other things such as new features, perk balancing, etc. In a perfect world where we could squeeze as much as we want into a single update, these sorts of reworks would probably be more common, but sadly that is just not possible. Everything comes with a tradeoff.

    As for why these sorts of reworks aren't the highest priority, this is where it gets a bit more complex. First off, we're at the point where there are 32 Killers in the game and counting. Even assuming that each Killer is played exactly equally, this would mean that each Killer is only seen in a little over 3% of all matches. Spending a significant amount of time on an update that only affects ~3% of matches is harder to justify when it means sacrificing new highly requested features or a bunch of perk updates which could impact all matches.

    Beyond that, there is only so much we can do to make a Killer appealing to everyone. Different Killers focus on different playstyles. Some may be focused on setting traps, others on keeping Survivors busy, some on chases, and so on. These different playstyles can help fill different niches. A newer player who's having a hard time finding Survivors might be drawn to The Doctor, for example. Naturally, certain playstyles become more successful in high end matches and others fall out of favour. Experienced Survivors, for example, are less likely to stumble into a trap because they know what to look out for and can predict where the Killer may have placed them. Each power also has a different skill ceiling, so while some allow you to continue improving almost endlessly, others have an upper limit by virtue of their design.

    Making each Killer equally strong at the highest skill levels is not the goal. Dead by Daylight is for everyone, not just the few at the very top. Often times these Killers are already doing pretty well in the vast majority of matches even if they fall out of favour in higher end matches. In these cases, buffing these Killers to the point where they are competitive in a high end match would cause them to be far too strong in the majority of matches. This is a net-negative change. While yes, it may be better for you, it makes things worse for the majority of players. Everyone's experience matters, not just those with more skill. In reality, it is not possible for every Killer to be equally viable at all skill levels.

    Something else that we need to consider are the players who already enjoy these Killers the way they are. Legion is a perfect example of this. There's no shortage of suggestions to rework The Legion's power to make them stronger. Yet in spite of this, The Legion is consistently one of the most played Killers. While they might not be the strongest in high end matches, there is still a large crowd who enjoy them as is. That raises the question, is it worth reworking a Killer that many people already love to play just to make the people who don't play them happy?

    The Trapper is also a special case. He's the poster boy, front and center on all the artwork. He's the Killer you'll face and play as during the tutorials, and he's unlocked by default. This is all very intentional; new players are naturally going to gravitate towards him. His power is very simple and easy to understand, and it tends to be fairly balanced in matches between newer players. He serves a special role of being a stepping stone toward learning the game. Because of this, his power is intentionally kept as simple and intuitive as possible (pick up a trap, set a trap), and he is intended to be fairly balanced in these sorts of games.

    All this said, that doesn't mean we'll completely ignore these Killers. We do make smaller balance changes on a regular basis, and larger reworks are still planned to release from time to time. But we do need to keep everyone in mind when making these decisions and consider the role they currently fill in the game, as well as whether or not our time would be better spent on balance changes that could affect all players rather than a select few matches. It would be a different story if there were only a handful of Killers to choose from, but the roster is fairly big at this point. The goal isn't so much to make every last one of them perfect for everyone, but to make sure that there's at last few options that appeal to everyone, regardless of how they play.

    Just make killers have a bigger skillceiling, the toughest killer main with legion cant win against a pro swf, no matter how good is he. but if would legion have some advanced mechanic that requires months to master then he could stand a chance if he has the skill. also dont know what features you speaking of, no new gamemechanic,gamemode nothing, the lastest was boons and endgame collapse... you mentioned perkbalancing, you guys just endlessly "balancing" perks and those ending up with colse to useless or some other being overpowerd, you guys some what fix something and then 2 other problems appear. plus half the killers are oboslete, yeah they look good on paper sure, but they cant compete on higher mmr lobbies, they need rework or buff, thats why i asked for higher skill ceiling and reworks. and not to mention that the game has countless issues as well that are not even a huge problems to solve but we often wait YEARS to you guys fix it, like maps, perks, basic game features, like searchbar, match history, profile, statistics, some perk changes that only needs small tweaking like lowering some numbers or raising on some perks. some killers need inclined shots like demo or doc..etc.. a could endlessly talk about those. and the favorite of mine is when statistics and community feedbacks are telling that something needs to chanage and the dev team just ignores it and buff or nerf some not problematic aspects. and yeah still a lot of players still playing legion beacuse they love something about the killer, but in terms of strenght is weak, but we must play what you guys put on the table, ppl even eat poop if they love something on a killer, that dosent mean that killer is good. i personally love doctor but he sucks ass, but im completly likeing his art design and madness, but he has so many issues man, some times i dont even know why i play him, we dont need new killers and maps, just fix the game! im sorry but what are you guys even doing there.

  • UnavailableName UnavailableName

    @rvzrvzrvz said:

    Survivor got nerfed hard in 2022 already, at some point just accept that killers shouldn't win 100% of the time, solo escape rate is abysmal even swfs are manageable they're not all comp level, stop asking for nerfs constantly

    "Competitive killers not tier S cannot win against comp level SWFs but all SWFs are not comp level"

    "game is balanced"

    No, matchmaking balance your kill rate, game is totally unbalanced

  • UnavailableName UnavailableName

    @Worgen said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3480456#Comment_3480456

    Just make killers have a bigger skillceiling, the toughest killer main with legion cant win against a pro swf, no matter how good is he. but if would legion have some advanced mechanic that requires months to master then he could stand a chance if he has the skill. also dont know what features you speaking of, no new gamemechanic,gamemode nothing, the lastest was boons and endgame collapse... you mentioned perkbalancing, you guys just endlessly "balancing" perks and those ending up with colse to useless or some other being overpowerd, you guys some what fix something and then 2 other problems appear. plus half the killers are oboslete, yeah they look good on paper sure, but they cant compete on higher mmr lobbies, they need rework or buff, thats why i asked for higher skill ceiling and reworks. and not to mention that the game has countless issues as well that are not even a huge problems to solve but we often wait YEARS to you guys fix it, like maps, perks, basic game features, like searchbar, match history, profile, statistics, some perk changes that only needs small tweaking like lowering some numbers or raising on some perks. some killers need inclined shots like demo or doc..etc.. a could endlessly talk about those. and the favorite of mine is when statistics and community feedbacks are telling that something needs to chanage and the dev team just ignores it and buff or nerf some not problematic aspects. and yeah still a lot of players still playing legion beacuse they love something about the killer, but in terms of strenght is weak, but we must play what you guys put on the table, ppl even eat poop if they love something on a killer, that dosent mean that killer is good. i personally love doctor but he sucks ass, but im completly likeing his art design and madness, but he has so many issues man, some times i dont even know why i play him, we dont need new killers and maps, just fix the game! im sorry but what are you guys even doing there.

    Cause they fix nothing.

    BHVR have used perks as band aid to balance a game that is totally unbalanced at its core.

    • tons of pallets/windows
    • loops that are way too strong espeially if survivors combine/connects loops together
    • gens are too fast

    Only tunneling/camping is working with most killers at high level and yet, if the survivors use OTR, you are doomed. 3-gening is a boring strategy.

    So devs are creating perks and add-ons to compensate.

    Easiest exemple is Myers that is totally trash but use the instant kill add-ons then he is good enough. And it is like this for most killers.

    That game will never be properly balanced.

    Back in 2022, BHVR has made an overall of the game, buffing killers and nerfing survivors and still survivors are way too strong...

  • UnavailableName UnavailableName

    @Peanits said:

    I can chime in here.

    Being afraid has nothing to do with it, it's more to do with time management and priorities. Large scale Killer reworks require a huge amount of time between designers, programmers, and QA. In order to do these types of large Killer reworks, we need to sacrifice on other things such as new features, perk balancing, etc. In a perfect world where we could squeeze as much as we want into a single update, these sorts of reworks would probably be more common, but sadly that is just not possible. Everything comes with a tradeoff.

    As for why these sorts of reworks aren't the highest priority, this is where it gets a bit more complex. First off, we're at the point where there are 32 Killers in the game and counting. Even assuming that each Killer is played exactly equally, this would mean that each Killer is only seen in a little over 3% of all matches. Spending a significant amount of time on an update that only affects ~3% of matches is harder to justify when it means sacrificing new highly requested features or a bunch of perk updates which could impact all matches.

    Beyond that, there is only so much we can do to make a Killer appealing to everyone. Different Killers focus on different playstyles. Some may be focused on setting traps, others on keeping Survivors busy, some on chases, and so on. These different playstyles can help fill different niches. A newer player who's having a hard time finding Survivors might be drawn to The Doctor, for example. Naturally, certain playstyles become more successful in high end matches and others fall out of favour. Experienced Survivors, for example, are less likely to stumble into a trap because they know what to look out for and can predict where the Killer may have placed them. Each power also has a different skill ceiling, so while some allow you to continue improving almost endlessly, others have an upper limit by virtue of their design.

    Making each Killer equally strong at the highest skill levels is not the goal. Dead by Daylight is for everyone, not just the few at the very top. Often times these Killers are already doing pretty well in the vast majority of matches even if they fall out of favour in higher end matches. In these cases, buffing these Killers to the point where they are competitive in a high end match would cause them to be far too strong in the majority of matches. This is a net-negative change. While yes, it may be better for you, it makes things worse for the majority of players. Everyone's experience matters, not just those with more skill. In reality, it is not possible for every Killer to be equally viable at all skill levels.

    Something else that we need to consider are the players who already enjoy these Killers the way they are. Legion is a perfect example of this. There's no shortage of suggestions to rework The Legion's power to make them stronger. Yet in spite of this, The Legion is consistently one of the most played Killers. While they might not be the strongest in high end matches, there is still a large crowd who enjoy them as is. That raises the question, is it worth reworking a Killer that many people already love to play just to make the people who don't play them happy?

    The Trapper is also a special case. He's the poster boy, front and center on all the artwork. He's the Killer you'll face and play as during the tutorials, and he's unlocked by default. This is all very intentional; new players are naturally going to gravitate towards him. His power is very simple and easy to understand, and it tends to be fairly balanced in matches between newer players. He serves a special role of being a stepping stone toward learning the game. Because of this, his power is intentionally kept as simple and intuitive as possible (pick up a trap, set a trap), and he is intended to be fairly balanced in these sorts of games.

    All this said, that doesn't mean we'll completely ignore these Killers. We do make smaller balance changes on a regular basis, and larger reworks are still planned to release from time to time. But we do need to keep everyone in mind when making these decisions and consider the role they currently fill in the game, as well as whether or not our time would be better spent on balance changes that could affect all players rather than a select few matches. It would be a different story if there were only a handful of Killers to choose from, but the roster is fairly big at this point. The goal isn't so much to make every last one of them perfect for everyone, but to make sure that there's at last few options that appeal to everyone, regardless of how they play.

    Here are my 2 cents, i do not want to be rude so everything here is meant to be constructive even though my english is not perfect, it might sound badly.

    • we do not want perks balancing, the priority should be around core balancing, the game is broken, perks have an impact way too big on the outcome of the trial. Regarding the resources needed to fix the game, BHVR has decided to accumulate perks and killers without adressing the core issue. Now you end up with 32 killers and hundreds of perks to balance/rework. We, the players, have never asked for all this and we have complained about the balance of the game since day


    • We request that the game is balanced and playable for every killers in the roster, that is actually not the case. Again, that is the priorities you have chosen, not the community.


    • So why are we forced to play with a SBMM if some killers have an upper limit regarding the result they can expect ? And why do i end up, with tier C/D killers, against SWFs S.W.A.T squads ?


    • Reworking a killer does not necessarily mean to tweak all its power...


    • Okay so the trapper is meant to play against new survivors. Give the community the information regarding which player is able to compete at high level, like this next time, good player will know they should not buy that new killer cause it is tier C.


    • The whole community has complained about the balance of the game, it should be top 1 in your priorities, it looks like it is not. For a game where the devs crew say it is a ompetitive game, this information you have just given us fall short.
  • Worgen Worgen

    @UnavailableName said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3495226#Comment_3495226

    Cause they fix nothing.

    BHVR have used perks as band aid to balance a game that is totally unbalanced at its core.

    • tons of pallets/windows
    • loops that are way too strong espeially if survivors combine/connects loops together
    • gens are too fast

    Only tunneling/camping is working with most killers at high level and yet, if the survivors use OTR, you are doomed. 3-gening is a boring strategy.

    So devs are creating perks and add-ons to compensate.

    Easiest exemple is Myers that is totally trash but use the instant kill add-ons then he is good enough. And it is like this for most killers.

    That game will never be properly balanced.

    Back in 2022, BHVR has made an overall of the game, buffing killers and nerfing survivors and still survivors are way too strong...

    Exactly. Finally someone has a clear vision on the game.

  • DY86 DY86

    @UnavailableName said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3480456#Comment_3480456

    Here are my 2 cents, i do not want to be rude so everything here is meant to be constructive even though my english is not perfect, it might sound badly.

    • we do not want perks balancing, the priority should be around core balancing, the game is broken, perks have an impact way too big on the outcome of the trial. Regarding the resources needed to fix the game, BHVR has decided to accumulate perks and killers without adressing the core issue. Now you end up with 32 killers and hundreds of perks to balance/rework. We, the players, have never asked for all this and we have complained about the balance of the game since day
    • We request that the game is balanced and playable for every killers in the roster, that is actually not the case. Again, that is the priorities you have chosen, not the community.
    • So why are we forced to play with a SBMM if some killers have an upper limit regarding the result they can expect ? And why do i end up, with tier C/D killers, against SWFs S.W.A.T squads ?
    • Reworking a killer does not necessarily mean to tweak all its power...
    • Okay so the trapper is meant to play against new survivors. Give the community the information regarding which player is able to compete at high level, like this next time, good player will know they should not buy that new killer cause it is tier C.
    • The whole community has complained about the balance of the game, it should be top 1 in your priorities, it looks like it is not. For a game where the devs crew say it is a ompetitive game, this information you have just given us fall short.

    I agree with most of what ur saying. Just wanna point out SBMM in dbd is like a Unicorn: Pretty but doesn’t exist.

    Core balancing should be Top priority like u said. And when BHVR says it takes time and what not. just remember they launched 2 of the most horrendous chapters one after the other. So do they really spend their time effectively?

  • UnavailableName UnavailableName

    @DY86 said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3495256#Comment_3495256

    I agree with most of what ur saying. Just wanna point out SBMM in dbd is like a Unicorn: Pretty but doesn’t exist.

    Core balancing should be Top priority like u said. And when BHVR says it takes time and what not. just remember they launched 2 of the most horrendous chapters one after the other. So do they really spend their time effectively?

    They can also hire some devs to create a sexondary team focused on balancing.

    They have sold more than dozens of millions copies of the base game, and this is without counting the chapters they have sold. They have made a ton of money and they come at us saying they do not have the ressources to fix their game...

    As a player i feel so disrespected...

  • [Deleted User] [Deleted User]

    It’s actually nice to see it confirmed once and for all that the devs don’t expect all killers to compete against good survivors. Do they realise however that this is what pushes people who play these killers to inevitably end up camping and tunnelling?

  • JustAnotherNewbie JustAnotherNewbie

    @[Deleted User] said:

    It’s actually nice to see it confirmed once and for all that the devs don’t expect all killers to compete against good survivors. Do they realise however that this is what pushes people who play these killers to inevitably end up camping and tunnelling?

    I think the devs expect those killers to actually use that strategy. The problem becomes when those strategies are viable and strong on killers who don't need that kind of help.

  • DY86 DY86

    @UnavailableName said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3495889#Comment_3495889

    They can also hire some devs to create a sexondary team focused on balancing.

    They have sold more than dozens of millions copies of the base game, and this is without counting the chapters they have sold. They have made a ton of money and they come at us saying they do not have the ressources to fix their game...

    As a player i feel so disrespected...

    Ur right in every degree. And they could put our thoughts into account as well. There were some pretty good ideas in here (just have to dig through the whining a lil bit)

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