Misconception regarding Blight's recharge

GrimReaperJr1232

Blight has been a hot topic lately and we all know why. Strong power, strong add-ons, fun to play so he's also common to face, etc.

One Nerf suggestion is upping his recharge because "10 seconds is too fast!"

On the surface, they're correct. 10 seconds is insanely fast. However, there's something people don't understand: his cooldown is not actually 10 seconds. It's 10 seconds + his fatigue.

Unlike Nurse and (reworked) Legion, Blight does not begin his recharge until after his fatigue. His fatigue times are also largely fixed. If you landed a hit, it will always be 3 seconds. If you miss, it'll always be 2.5 (it feels faster because of the animation).

What can vary (based on add-ons) is his fatigue for not bumping or running out of tokens, which can be 2.5 seconds or as low as 1.75 seconds. But that means you either mismanaged your tokens or were just using them for mobility, so no real issue there.

So in reality, Blight's recharge scales like this...

On hit: 7, 9, 11, and 13

Miss: 6.5, 8.5, 10.5, and 12.5

So while a little faster, his max recovery is around 15 seconds almost, which is one of the "standard" numbers when it comes to recharging (the other being 20).

HOWEVER

There is one exception. His recharge does start instantly during his 2.5-sec pallet break animation. I'm fairly certain that's due to a developer oversight since it was added post-release.

So yes, you could probably address that. Otherwise, his max recharge isn't much faster than most other killers. And if you say that using partial charges means his recharge is still faster so it should be nerfed, then that also applies to killers that only use a partial gauge such as Legion, Spirit, and even Pyramid Head.

HugTechLover

@Pulsar said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3442859#Comment_3442859

Okay?

That's literally just DBD. That's how it's always been, doesn't mean we shouldn't make changes.

Agree to disagree.

Pulsar

@HugTechLover said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3442899#Comment_3442899

Agree to disagree.

I don't think we can, actually.

If I'm understanding correctly, you've essentially just said that because people will always complain, we shouldn't make any changes.

Sava18

@egg_ said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3442127#Comment_3442127

Except nurse is still the best killer regardless of the nerfs and spirit is, surprise, still the third best killer regardless of the nerfs.

Very few people complain about Wraith and in general it's more about hit and run play style. He got consistently buffed since his release, except for one single nerf to his lunge duration after uncloaking, literally the only nerf he ever got, and nobody in the communities was complaining about that specifically

Freddy was extremely strong for literally zero brain activity required. He's in a sad state now, he deserved a rework entirely (again) but that doesn't mean his nerfs weren't needed, no killer should be that effective for zero effort

Billy.. yeah

Also what @Pulsar said to your comment. You can't be seriously defending his current state

I mean nurse is better base-kit no doubt, but the more complained about add-ons do push him over nurse when used by a good blight.

HugTechLover

@Pulsar said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3443000#Comment_3443000

I don't think we can, actually.

If I'm understanding correctly, you've essentially just said that because people will always complain, we shouldn't make any changes.

Umm, yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying. You don’t make changes because of a minority group wanting a change the majority doesn’t agree with, simply because they are the loudest. Changes should be made off of standards, collected data, and what the majority is calling for.

Idk why we wouldn’t be able to “agree to disagree”… it’s quite simple as you not agreeing with what I believe, and we leave it at that. Lol

GrimReaperJr1232

@Xernoton said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3442634#Comment_3442634

His cooldowns would not be a problem, if Blight didn't excel in every possible way. That's why I brought up what the actual issue with this killer is. Increase his cooldowns a little and see him still outperform. Increase them too much and see how nobody will want to play him because it basically reduces him to a glorified M1 killer.

Warning: This will be a lot to read. Because I don't want to write even more on the matter I won't go into every aspect of their respective powers and explain how different addons might affect all of them. I'll try to stick to the most important details and point out addon variences when useful.

In comparison to Billy, at first glance Billy might look like a much stronger killer. After all, the Hillbilly has an on demand insta down, greater map mobility (in theory but we'll get to that one later) and the potential to shred through pallets even quicker. For someone, who has little knowledge about the game he might look like the second best killer in the game only topped by Nurse.

But that isn't the case. Billy has a lot of problems, that you'll see when you play him yourself and get to go against better and better survivors. His map mobility suffers from map layouts, collisions, rng and addon dependence. Only one of these things is an issue for Blight. His collisions are horrible and should be fixed regardless of his strength but even then he can play around it. Very good Blights will find a way to bump into the most slippery tiles. Top top it off with Blight you have to the option to decide, which path you want to go. Billy can try and do that at the cost of 2 addons (Driftking Billy) and still he won't be able to do it in the same way Blight does because his power doesn't work like that. There is also the possibility for him to overheat, if he tries to go for a long distance chainsaw.

Onto the chase potential. I was half expecting someon to bring this up, but let me ask you a question: What is harder, dodging a Billy or dodging a Blight? A Billy player that tries to get a snipe on you can be easily dodged by walking to the side at the last moment even with Engravings or turn rate addons. With Blight that isn't quite so easy as he has a hitbox, that, when used right, will get him the hit even if you are right beside him. There is also the possibity for a Blight to first bump and then go for a hit, which buys him more time and limits the survivor's options to dodge dramatically. Comparing both killers, you'll find that Blight has a much easier time to engage a chase because he can use his power to get closer to the survivor and react to their movement while Billy has to predict, hope and get a bit lucky with the map layout to achieve something similar but still not quite as good. If both killers cannot get the hit immediately they'll suffer a cooldown. For Billy there is 2 possibilities, as he could either bump or end the chainsaw manually. Both will result in 3 seconds cooldown with the difference, that Billy can move as long as he didn't bump. Blight on the other hand can only go on a short cooldown (2.5 seconds) and will be able to move as well. On average Blight is also likely to get much closer to the survivor before starting his cooldown. I do not know the exact numbers of their respective movement speeds during their cooldowns, so feel free to add that, if you do. What I do know however is that a Blight is easier to get into a get position to start a chase from.

During chase, you rightfully pointed out that Billy has similar abilities to Blight. He can shred through pallets incredibly fast and get hits (even insta downs) where other killers might struggle. So how comes, he's not considered to be one of the best killers in the game? This is largely due to 3 factors: addon dependency, loop layout and counterplay. I already pointed out, that Billy is quite addon dependent. This has 2 main reasons when it comes his chasing potential regarding curves. First, his base chainsaw speed is too low low to get hits on many tiles and second, addons can open up new ways for him to curve. For example, Engravings make him so faster that during 0.75 seconds of increased turn rate he can first go straight until he passes an passes an object and then still turn and to get around it. Usually you would already need to be right at the edge of that object pull off such a curve. Also, with Engravings you can sometimes wait a bit longer and further around a corner before starting the chainsaw and catching up with the increased speed to get the hit. The loop layout is often underestimated when it comes to how greatly it affects this killer. There are many tiles where a Billy can potentially hit you (pretty much 80% of all loops). But how does Billy achieve that? Curves don't work on all tiles. That is mostly because some loops have the shape of a square or circle. The problem here is that Billy will already take too long to get around one corner and come into a position where he can initiate a curve, so that even if he did manage to mindgame the survivor beforehand they'll still easily make it around the next corner before the Billy can hit them. This is a problem on a many, many, many loops we currently have. Then, of course I need to point out collisions. There is a good rule of thump with Billy. If there's a bush, only use your chainsaw when you're at least 3 feet away from it and don't get any closer. This pretty much eliminates the possibilities for him to curve around any loops with bushes (as long as he needs to curve past them). There are other tiles that you need to treat with the same care but taking all of them into account would take me another 1000 words. Then, we have loops that are shaped like triangles. These ones are a bit tricky. As long as the survivor doesn't panick they'll be save and the Billy can really only go for a back rev. Worst case scenario, they'll have to drop the pallet a bit earlier. Against very inexperienced survivors however (or survivors that aren't careful) he will be able to get a curve on them with enough set up. Most main buildings only allow him to try and go for a back rev but even that is mostly not going to be an option, leaving him as a pure M1 killer. Regarding standard tiles like LT-walls, jungle gyms and pallet gyms Billy will have to rely mindgames and guessing a lot and always has to run Engravings. Otherwise there is no possible way for him to get a hit (granted the survivor doesn't monumentally screw up). I've already covered a bit of this but I'll point it out again. Billy has a lot of counterplay. Like, a lot. You can mindgame, maintain distance, pre drop, run around loops with awkward collisions, abuse windows for maximum pain, crouch tech (though, if you do that there is a special place in hell for you), jump into a lockers and even react to his chainsaw. On most loops a survivor has enough time to react to Billy's curving, which really leaves him with no "right play" in that situation. This can be mitigated by Engravings but never eliminated.

Blight finds himself in a much better position here. Unlike Billy he is able to hit survivors around corners, which already is a huge deal and he can play around most loops in the same way. Rush and bump until you catch up and hit. I know this is easier said than done but for the sake of this argument I assumed the Billy wouldn't mess up the angle of a curve or back rev neither. On loops where that might not work he can also try and hug tech, which makes his chasing power even more versatile. Something, that many people don't take into account when it comes to Blight's chase power is his ability to adjust and react to survivor movements while using his power, allowing him to switch directions and mindgame even while already using it, which again is a way to get hits where Billy would struggle. As I mentioned before Blight can create situations, where the survivor will mess up regardless because they have no "right play". This is the exact opposite of what Billy struggles with. Now, let's see how Blight deals with Billy's other weak points. Mindgames: Reactable. Maintaining distance: Not an option due to the nature of Blight's power. Pre dropping: The same as Billy, a little better because he can force out pallets faster. Awkward collisions: Horrible for both, a little easier for Blight to deal with. Windows: Blight can play around most windows pretty well. Crouch tech: Both are affected by it, Blight has a chance to look downward and hit survivor regardless. Jumping into lockers: Possible against Blight but comes with a higher risk because Blight has 2 options to deal with it (wait for his cooldown or bump again). Reacting to his power: Possible and definitely not always easy to deal with but can result into hits regardless. To compare both killers in chase you need to consider how long it would take a Billy to get an insta down vs how long it would take a Blight to get 2 hits and how many ressources they both get out of the way. I can only base this argument on what I explained earlier and our perceived strengths of both killers but in general Blight gets faster downs even with less effort. The top tier Blights are pretty much unstoppable in chase, while top tier Billys still have to set up and mindgame more, which results in more missed shots. Blight might have the highest skill ceiling in the game but his skill floor isn't all that high and payoff to skill ratio is way higher than on any other killer besides Nurse (and when you are only exceeded by Nurse that shouldn't be used as a defense that your power is fine).

The cost of their respective strengths are cooldowns and the necessity for set ups. While Blight has little to need to set up for his power to grant him a hit, Billy has to do a lot more in that regard. Both killers suffer cooldowns after using their powers with Blight's cooldowns being slightly shorter but with the cost of a refill timer as opposed to Billy's power being ready as soon as the cooldown ends (granted he didn't overheat, which unlikely as it is can still happen). Blight's base kit doesn't have many problems even with the low price he has to pay for this strength (other than hug tech imo because it allows him to get hits with too little effort on some loops and his whacky collisions in need to get fixed). But when you factor in that he already is this strong without any addons and no killer's addons should be useless like Pyramid Head's for example you really can't find a way to give him useful addons that don't make him an absolute monster. All his useful addons are mighty transformative in the right hands, which goes to show that every part of his power is already strong without any enhancements. If he was this strong with his good addons, that would be fine. But how can we allow one killer to be this strong with the best addons in the game on top when killers like Trapper, Pig, Myers, Clown, Wraith, Sadako, Freddy, Doctor and even Trickster exist. This list can be continued all the way up to some of our stronger killers because there are many situations where they simply get outpaced. You can make an argument that this is a problem with these killers and not Blight but when it comes down to fixing it, BHVR need to make some changes to the core of this game like reworking unfair maps, nuking Garden of Misery (honestly, this abomination doesn't deserve better), reducing the number of pallets on some maps and even blocking the gens for the first few seconds of a match, so that killers with low mobility don't get screwed just because.

Even when comparing base kit Blight to Engravings Billy (Lo-Pros are too difficult factor in as they are too transformative and affect different players in different ways), Blight beats Billy in almost every category imaginable. This is where the low cost of his power (low cooldowns during which he can still move) becomes an issue. It allows him to outperform most killers and he has a lot of potential to correct mistakes and even if he doesn't get a hit with his power he is still a normal killer, which leaves him with no greater draw back than a 2.5 seconds cooldown during which he moves slower and can't perform any action.

As far as their movement speeds during their cooldowns go

Billy is slowed to 1.38m/s canceling his saw before quickly regaining momentum and his 4.6 speed for the rest of the cooldown. (this operates on a curve for both of them so it's hard to say they're X speed for Y amount of seconds)

Blight is slowed to 1.15m/s during his entire fatigue until it finishes on miss/running out of tokens.

They're both slowed further if they successfully hit, but I feel that's largely a non-factor, especially when one literally downs you if it connects.

Now, I do see your argument about how much risk there is to Billy compared to Blight. To some extent, I think you can justify it as risk vs reward, with Blight being much less risky but Billy being more rewarding with an instant-down. However, something I want to be clear on is that when I speak of Blight, saying his cooldowns are fine or that he's balanced, I do it speaking of basekit Blight (and barring things like Hug Tech that are stated to be bugs awaiting patches). There is, quite frankly, no defense for how strong his add-ons are on such a strong killer, especially when other killers such as PH and Nemesis have abysmal add-ons.

I've even made add-on nerf suggestions myself. And yes, I also concur that Billy is extremely punishing---too punishing even, which is a factor in his rarity. I just don't want to risk another Billy incident where they nuke both the killer and the add-ons, resulting in the killer being in a miserable state for years.

Pulsar

@HugTechLover said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3443003#Comment_3443003

Umm, yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying. You don’t make changes because of a minority group wanting a change the majority doesn’t agree with, simply because they are the loudest. Changes should be made off of standards, collected data, and what the majority is calling for.

Idk why we wouldn’t be able to “agree to disagree”… it’s quite simple as you not agreeing with what I believe, and we leave it at that. Lol

That's not what I'm saying at all.

What I thought you were arguing is that because some people will always complain, we shouldn't bother to make ANY changes to anything in the first place.

Example: DH. People will always complain about Exhaustion perks or some other perk, so there's really no point in nerfing DH.

HugTechLover

@Pulsar said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3443012#Comment_3443012

That's not what I'm saying at all.

What I thought you were arguing is that because some people will always complain, we shouldn't bother to make ANY changes to anything in the first place.

Example: DH. People will always complain about Exhaustion perks or some other perk, so there's really no point in nerfing DH.

No man. Changes should always be made, I just don’t justify changes, especially nerfs, simply because people complain about it being challenging to play against. I believe everything should be driven by standards, I.e a 60% kill rate, the standard set by BHVR, and then super in depth data collected.

Blight for example, comparing his basekit kill rate vs kill rate with alch ring and C33 equipped (if BHVR tracks data to that extent). If the kill rate is jumping to say like, 90% from 55% (made up of course), then a change should absolutely be employed. But if it’s goes from say 55% to 65%, then I’d say a change is not warranted despite a group of people complaining about it.

Pulsar

@HugTechLover said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3443040#Comment_3443040

No man. Changes should always be made, I just don’t justify changes, especially nerfs, simply because people complain about it being challenging to play against. I believe everything should be driven by standards, I.e a 60% kill rate, the standard set by BHVR, and then super in depth data collected.

Blight for example, comparing his basekit kill rate vs kill rate with alch ring and C33 equipped (if BHVR tracks data to that extent). If the kill rate is jumping to say like, 90% from 55% (made up of course), then a change should absolutely be employed. But if it’s goes from say 55% to 65%, then I’d say a change is not warranted despite a group of people complaining about it.

So then old OoO was fine because it actually lowered escape rates. Flashlights should never have been changed to stop clicking. Locker saves shouldn't have been removed.

I suspect the only reason you hold to that logic is because it's the only way you could possibly justify keeping Blight as he is.

MikaelaWantsYourBoon

@HugTechLover said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3443040#Comment_3443040

No man. Changes should always be made, I just don’t justify changes, especially nerfs, simply because people complain about it being challenging to play against. I believe everything should be driven by standards, I.e a 60% kill rate, the standard set by BHVR, and then super in depth data collected.

Blight for example, comparing his basekit kill rate vs kill rate with alch ring and C33 equipped (if BHVR tracks data to that extent). If the kill rate is jumping to say like, 90% from 55% (made up of course), then a change should absolutely be employed. But if it’s goes from say 55% to 65%, then I’d say a change is not warranted despite a group of people complaining about it.

This 65% data took before survivor nerfs. Dead Hard and CoH are no longer with us. Med-kits nerfed as well.

Before you say to me "But killer perks nerfed too", let me say this. Yes, i know. But i am really hardly seeing Blights are using anti-gen perks. They are using information - aura builds usually. So probably this anti-gen changes hardly affected Blights.

Blight and Nurse are only killers who don't need anti-gen perks on their builds. And that's already explain so much how busted they are.

And do you just saying leave Blight how as he is because people will always complain about different topics?

HugTechLover

@Pulsar said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3443052#Comment_3443052

So then old OoO was fine because it actually lowered escape rates. Flashlights should never have been changed to stop clicking. Locker saves shouldn't have been removed.

I suspect the only reason you hold to that logic is because it's the only way you could possibly justify keeping Blight as he is.

You’re reaching. What does being able to click flashlights have to do with my point? It’s not a nerf / buff to beams?… No, I don’t think locker saves should have been removed.

Again… you’re reaching. I keep this logic… because it makes sense. Where have I said that blight should remain the same as is? I have said before I think alch ring and c33 are OP (for good blights). Alch ring probably let’s me 4k at a 90-95% rate.

@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3443052#Comment_3443052

This 65% data took before survivor nerfs. Dead Hard and CoH are no longer with us. Med-kits nerfed as well.

Before you say to me "But killer perks nerfed too", let me say this. Yes, i know. But i am really hardly seeing Blights are using anti-gen perks. They are using information - aura builds usually. So probably this anti-gen changes hardly affected Blights.

Blight and Nurse are only killers who don't need anti-gen perks on their builds. And that's already explain so much how busted they are.

And do you just saying leave Blight how as he is because people will always complain about different topics?

The data I gave was hypothetical. I don’t know what those rates would be. Nowhere did I say to leave blight alone. I said to not make changes solely based on people complaining.

egg_

@Sava18 said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3442665#Comment_3442665

I mean nurse is better base-kit no doubt, but the more complained about add-ons do push him over nurse when used by a good blight.

Yeah well, yes, a blight going all in is stronger than nurse going all in

Xernoton

@GrimReaperJr1232 said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3442765#Comment_3442765

As far as their movement speeds during their cooldowns go

Billy is slowed to 1.38m/s canceling his saw before quickly regaining momentum and his 4.6 speed for the rest of the cooldown. (this operates on a curve for both of them so it's hard to say they're X speed for Y amount of seconds)

Blight is slowed to 1.15m/s during his entire fatigue until it finishes on miss/running out of tokens.

They're both slowed further if they successfully hit, but I feel that's largely a non-factor, especially when one literally downs you if it connects.

Now, I do see your argument about how much risk there is to Billy compared to Blight. To some extent, I think you can justify it as risk vs reward, with Blight being much less risky but Billy being more rewarding with an instant-down. However, something I want to be clear on is that when I speak of Blight, saying his cooldowns are fine or that he's balanced, I do it speaking of basekit Blight (and barring things like Hug Tech that are stated to be bugs awaiting patches). There is, quite frankly, no defense for how strong his add-ons are on such a strong killer, especially when other killers such as PH and Nemesis have abysmal add-ons.

I've even made add-on nerf suggestions myself. And yes, I also concur that Billy is extremely punishing---too punishing even, which is a factor in his rarity. I just don't want to risk another Billy incident where they nuke both the killer and the add-ons, resulting in the killer being in a miserable state for years.

Thank you for the information about their respective movement speeds during the cooldown. I'm not quite sure Billy's cooldown works as intended because it feels like even after the 3 seconds you are still unable to perform any actions but I haven't tried to stop the time and analyze that further yet.

I was not only talking about the risk to their powers but also the possibilities. Billy is more limited than Blight is. There simply aren't as many ways for him to force a hit / pallet as there are for Blight. Much less without the right set up.

The reason I think Blight's cooldowns are too low is because he simply has too little draw backs for this potential. There are very few tiles in the game where a seasoned Blight can't get a hit with their power and he can start his power pretty much in any position in a loop without the need to mindgame too much beforehand. Meaning he can get hits and pallets incredibly fast with little cost. When we look at base kit Blight in a bubble he might look alright. But when it comes to the whole game and how maps are in need of reworks Blight becomes an issue again. We cannot have a number of killers that would be ok, if maps were a bit weaker and this monster stomping over everything in his path because there simply aren't enough ressources to delay him.

To repeat my argument about his addons, he should be a strong killer with his addons and the addons shouldn't be useless. Addons should always have considerable effects, otherwise they become obsolete. But what useful effects can you give current Blight without making him overpowered? Alch Ring, Blighted Crow, C33, Adrenaline Vial, Blighted Rat, Blight Tag and even the Shredded Notes make him considerably stronger, remove counterplay and make him more forgiving than he has any right to be. You can nerf all these addons into the ground and leave him with a bunch of useless gimmicky crap (much like Billy) but this isn't really what we want, is it? He needs nerfs to his strongest addons (C33, Alch Ring, Adrenaline Vial, maybe even Blight Tag considering what top tier Blights can do with it) and his base kit, to the point where with his good addons he is around the same level (maybe a little bit stronger) as he is now with his base kit.