Another day, another set of games with top tier survivors
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2PzvdWGuMg
When are people going to realize that we desperately need to do something about the kinds of things survivors can do and how difficult it is to even get a single hook against good survivors?
Comments
I can agree that nerfing stuff that is mainly abused by high skill survs is a good shout, long as it doesn't affect less skilled survs. Vaults on garden of joy certainly need sorting out.
And I didn't say that tournament players don't s**t on regular players, I was saying that there aren't enough of them to make it an issue. DBD's Matchmaking system is pretty bad at matching same level players together but you won't repeatedly see these super high level survivors unless you are a super high level killer. Sure pub killers will get stomped by them occasionally I just don't think that's a huge problem.
Really can't agree with your last paragraph though. I've been playing for over 600 hours and maybe 350 of which on surv. And I really can't loop for s**t, I've watched video tutorials on it. I run amazing chases occasionally, but usually only against baby killers. You can't get to that standard of play overnight. I frequently come up against survivors who can and I'm always impressed by how they can make a pallet at the last possible second and make me hit wall when as surv I always take a hit from across the vault. That kind of skill is extremely difficult and time consuming to build. Mechanically I understand how it works but the timing is so insanely tight it takes a long time to get good at it.
That's not what i am saying. Generally, whenever someone presents a video like this, the claim is always: "but they are comp players" or "they are the best team in the world" as if that somehow justifies that they should win every game they play. I'm simply saying, if we took some really good, but not "Best in the world" survivors, and let them play games with each other for, i dunno, 10, 20 hours, give them coms, i bet they'd win the vast majority of their games too.
Additionally, people will take these videos and say: "these are the best survivors in the world" and say its fine, but then use videos of supaalf to talk about why nurse needs nerfs. Which is pure hypocrisy.
Just because something is rare, doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed or that it is fair. Imagine there was a killer offering that:
But then, the offering was given a 0.01% chance to appear in the bloodweb. This would mean that, on average, you'd see this offering in one out of every 1000 games you would play. Would this offering be fair?
They wouldn't. Otherwise SWF's would be winning most of their games.
So either SWF's aren't actually common at all and Solo's are escaping like 10% of the time or SWF's aren't actually OP because nobody can play like Eternal.
Also, nice work continuing to try to double-down and put your head in the sand. I'd be nicer, but saying that any Survivor can be an Eternal-level player given 10-20 hours is ######### ludicrous. You are either so biased you can't see it or you're completely delusional.
"Match them against the top killer in the world, and the match will likely go similar. Even in the video, they specifically went out of their way to find other top tier players."
And? Who cares?
Comparing comp DBD to public matches is just wrong, those are basically two different games. If the best Killer player in the world loses against this team, it does not matter. If they win it does not matter either.
Since almost every player (except for a very, very small amount of people) in this game will never encounter any of those teams or Killers in public games.
@Reinami
I'll give it a go as one of the people disagreeing with you.
You ask about balance between high and average survivors. Most people say average and you accuse them of hypocrisy for not wanting nurse buffed/sadako nerfed. The problems is that most people think all MMRs should be considered, but were we need to give priority differs.
We all know why the nurse has lower overall kill rates; she's hard to learn how to use, but powerful once you do. Likewise Sadako has high numbers because she gets merciless storm which is brutal against low MMR survivors and useless against higher tier.
You're creating a false dichotomy to try and make your point and it leads to very few people taking you seriously.
You're also treating other people's statements as absolutes while moving the goal posts on your own statements.
Example: you state
Obviously there are some nuances there. I think generally we can all agree that you should at the very least try to do a bit of both.but later attack another post with
You may think i am joking, but if you truly believe we should balance around average players, the data shows this very thing. So if you believe this, then stick to it.When another person discusses general design philosophy, which seems to have been the question you posed, you treat it like they need to defend it in all cases, while you only need to defend your arguments when you so choose.
You also make the following strange statement:
Any competitive game with an longevity never balances for the average playersDbD has a longevity that most games only dream of. If we're using longevity as an argument the very forum you are posting on disproves the assertion that they can't balance around all skill levels and have a successful game.
Then we get into a totally different discussion
Why can't we do both? Why can't we make the game more fair at the high level for killers, while making it better for survivors at the low level?You then throw out quite a few suggestion, some of which I don't really even disagree with, but you've so poisoned the well against yourself with the structure of what you've said it's tough to imagine many people reading these posts. If this had just been the start of a post you would have had a much more fruitful discussion.
To answer the question though, an asymmetrical game can't be perfectly balanced, at least not in a way that makes it fun. DbD enjoyment comes from all of the variety it has. Honestly, while I complain about certain game elements like most people, I'm overall surprised the game isn't more of a mess.
Looking at your suggestions:
They group together on gens because they are afraid of separatinMake it so survivors grouping up together is actually a good thing.I find it amusing that some people think survivors grouping up is a horrible idea, while others think it is over powered with prove thyself.
Your solution doesn't work. Even if spreading out early is a good strategy, eventually you want to group up to finish the last gens, making them go faster would be devastating to a killer.
Also, I disagree with you on the frequency that lower tier survivors group up. Frequently I have no idea where the other survivors are.
They aren't very good at looping and tend to waste god pallets/setups too quicklyW
hy are there even "god" pallets to begin with. What if every pallet was about as strong as a pallet gym?Impossible to have map variety and pull that off. Also
Low MMR survivors, aren't going against killers who can do crazy mindgames anyway so it would actually buff them quite a bit because now they are punished much less for "wasting" pallets.It's much easier to mind game as a low tier killer compared to a low tier survivor. I don't think your solution would accomplish what you think it does.
They don't know how to deal with camping killers.What if camping was removed from the game completely and made impossible.I disagree with your solution, but broadly think camping should be addressed beyond just perks.
They spend too much time doing things that aren't relevant to the objective (I.E. Dull totems, searching chests for items)What if chests actually gave items that were worth something.I generally think chests should be more powerful, but I don't see how this closes the gap in the game.
Let's say chests are stronger, but still not a great use of time. You now have survivors wasting even more time looking for them.
Let's say chests are so strong survivors should find them, high skill survivors find them much more quickly than lower skill.
Just because something is rare, doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed or that it is fair. Imagine there was a killer offering that:Again you are taking a general comment and misrepresenting it by jumping to an extreme. You're comparing the fact that sometimes the killer will be extremely outmatched with the chance of a random autowin feature. Mismatches are inevitable in multiplayer games, while the second idea would be easily corrected.
If there was a way to "fix" professional comp teams hitting mid tier killer players, sure. However, if something is rare and the solution (which you are proposing) is substantial game overhaul (which likely just creates other problems), then yes, the fact that it is rare is something we can live with.
To piggyback off the last point here, fixing comp vs average match ups isn't even something that can be cleaned up via balance alone. Many results happen at the loadout screen when players don't know what to expect. I'm running Low Pro/Engravings in a Billy scrim 200 times out of 200. In a pub? I'm running whatever because it's not serious, but I'm going to get rolled without it if I run into a comp team that is actually trying. That's not a balance issue. That's a "not knowing what to expect from game to game" issue. DbD's balance has a lot to do with which side cares more about the result before everyone hits the Ready button. You can't balance that out in a single queue system.
There are many unfair games in dbd. For a start 3 of those things you mentioned are pretty much attainable in some way with killer add ons.
Leprose lichen for demo, tombstone myers, scratched mirror myers. Purple aura read addon for wraith. Lets go with tombstone myers, I'm not a fan of getting morid before 1st gen is done.
Is it fair? Not imo.
would I like to see it removed? Honestly yes.
Is it a big problem for me? No.
I see it very rarely and it's frustrating on the spot. But Its not enough to make me quit the game. It's also a mechanical advantage. Which is more unfair than a skill difference in my opinion.
The most unfair games I have played have generally been killer sided. Absolutely unwinnable for survivors. I have made some Absolutely filthy killer builds that throw game in my favour and have given me easy wins against experienced swfs. My sweaty demo build has practically a 100% winrate, i genuinely can't remember losing with it in the last few months, doctor with distressing, sloppy, coulrophobia and unnerving presence with jigsaw offering is insane, that one I wrecked a swf I play customs with and they are extremely good players.
For killer they can exploit perk builds and powers to make the game mechanically easy for them. Survs have to be amazing at the game to consistently win so hard. So i genuinely don't see surv teams like this as a big issue. Comp players in any video will absolutely s**t on open queue pub teams. Look at any casual quickplay playlist in a video game. It'll happen but it's extremely rare for the individual player.
One sided games are unpleasant, but also an immutable fact in online gaming. People will play to win by any means necessary. With asymmetric games this is much more common. In all the games I play of dbd i can usually call the result, gates open surv win or hatch game killer win, in the first 5 mins. Maybe 10% of my games are close run right down to the wire even games. And I'm fine with that, devs do their best (probably) to balance the game but it's never going to be perfect.
I just find ways to make the game fun. And for me sweating isn't that much fun, as killer or surv. I can outskill survs as killer and let 2 go after they ate double hooked. Fun for me, nice for the survs to get a free escape, a few more BP and interact with a friendly killer.
But I digress. Mechanically imo the game gives the advantage to killers, if the top 1% of survs are good enough to turn the tables on most killers I have zero issue with that. Because they are working together flawlessly. Looking at your vid, when there were no mechanical restrictions (except no duplicates), they drew against a deathslinger, 7 hook stages and 2 dead. Arguably the best comp team in the world against a D tier killer. Love to see them against comp blight or nurse. They aren't unbeatable. And their wins come through skill instead of abusing perk builds for easy advantage.