What is considered good map design in DBD?

Smoe

I always hear people say ¨DBD's map designs are awful, pls fix.¨ but never do i hear what exactly would make dbd's map designs better

So what exactly would a good map design in dbd consist of?

Mandy

This is a really good question. It would be good to hear people's responses to this.

Thank you for asking this!

ByeByeQ

I consider Old Hawkins a great map design. It would be the best indoor map in the game if it still was present. It feature the most unique loops in the game and used verticality in loops in a way never seen before or since. It was the right size for a DbD map.

Good new maps would be maps that use vertical space in the right scale well like Hawkins did, like Midwich does and not like Haddonfield, Garden of Joy or RPD do.

The issue is that Nurse crushes on those kind of maps.

SuzuKR

Maps being closer to a moderate size. Maps like Gideon or Midwich are way too small, maps like Mother's Dwelling are way too large. Ideal size would probably be around Wrecker's Yard's size or so.

Tile spawning logic being improved so busted setups cannot happen anymore. For instance, LTs cannot spawn connected to jungle gyms or shack or main directly. Jungle gyms cannot spawn connected to jungle gyms, shack, or main directly. There cannot be more than 2 connected LTs in a row (no 3 or more in a row).

Adjusting map-specific problems (Gideon having way too many god pallets but basically no helpful windows whatsoever).

The best designed map on average (tile logic aside) is Wrecker's Yard in my opinion.

AnchorTea

Huge maps aren't as problematic anymore for killers since the 90 second gen buff. Now, ironically, it's a problem for survivors more then killers.

GeneralV

Old Chapel.

Simple as that, really.

Smoe

@GeneralV said:

Old Chapel.

Simple as that, really.

Could you elaborate on why old chapel is good map design?

ThatOneDemoPlayer

Coal Tower sized Maps, no busted main buildings, strong tiles don't lead into each other but still exist, a maximum 1-2 God Pallets and junk loops being 50/50s

Smoe

@ThatOneDemoPlayer said:

Coal Tower sized Maps, no busted main buildings, strong tiles don't lead into each other but still exist, a maximum 1-2 God Pallets and junk loops being 50/50s

Could you elaborate on what makes a main building busted and what the ideal main building layout should be?

jesterkind

Good map design is tricky to pin down, but we can narrow the edges of what it could be by defining bad map design a little. Maps like Mother's Dwelling and Father Campbell's Chapel are bad because they're simply too large, giving killers who don't have mobility an upward hill to struggle against completely independent of how well they or their opponents play, for example, and on the survivor side maps that spawn with too few resources to use are considered bad. Even for the survivors, though, large maps can be a detriment- if a teammate is hooked all the way across the map, getting to them in time for a save becomes a concern.

Gideon's is a bad map not because of its overall layout and design, which are actually quite good, but because it has far too many pallets and far too many of them are safe or godlike. Current RPD is a bad map because it's way too big, its hallways are way too cramped, and it's a nightmare maze to navigate even when you can see auras (all which were fixed on the PTB, thank god!).

So, through extrapolation, I'd say "good map design" is a map that's towards the middling size range, has a distribution of resources that both allows survivors to make plays without having too many for the killer to reasonably deal with, and that is at least moderately easy to navigate- at least after the first few times you've played on it.

You're gonna bump up against certain killers preferring certain maps - what's good for Ghostface tends to be terrible for Hillbilly, for instance - but overall I think those facets would be generally considered the marker of a good map.

Jarky

I don't think it's 'awful' per say, but I think there are some things that can be improved.

On the killer side:

Some maps can have situations where there's exceptionally strong chained tiles. Cowshed is a good example of this where you can get a jungle gym, which leads into a long lane loop, which leads into the killer shack, which connects to another long lane loop on the other side, which can then connect into another jungle gym. If a survivor knows how to chain those together and you're an M1 killer, there isn't a lot you can do other than just brute force the tiles down or leave and go pressure elsewhere and hope the next survivor you face doesn't reach it.

There are also some buildings that can have exceptionally strong windows you can't mindgame well. New Haddonfield has an example of this where there are two open windows that exist on the same wall in one of the buildings that are spaced apart that no matter how you loop it (counter or clockwise) the survivor can safely vault the window if they're paying attention. This is an example of a window that you either have to leave if you're an M1 killer or have bamboozle for.

Then there's some maps that have exceptionally strong pallets in a lot of places. The Game is probably the most egregious example of this where there's a lot of safe pallets. The downside, of course, is that once those pallets are gone, there's not a lot for the survivors to work with - however there's such an abundance of them that the game is mostly over before you've gotten through most of them.

On the survivor side:

Deadzones is primarily the big issue some maps have. The centre of Haddonfield can have this problem where the street is. If I had feedback for Haddonfield in general it'd be to weaken some of the building windows, but strengthen the middle of the map where the street is so there are more pallets they can work with to chain the sides together.

Shelter Woods can also be an example of the above if the killer doesn't have mobility, but it's also such a large map (I think the 2nd largest still?) that spreading out on gens on that map will probably get you a win. That said, its RNG can just create lots of unsafe areas and not a lot for survivors to work with.

I think summarily if I had to give feedback to BHVR on maps, it'd be to not make them too large because that makes your non-mobile killers weaker, and spread out 'strong' tiles/pallets across the map as a whole but in between the stronger tiles put unsafe/weaker tiles that the killer can play around so there's always something for the survivor to work with, but so it doesn't feel like they're just chaining together tiles/safe pallets you just have to brute force.

I don't think it's possible for them to create a brand new map that feels 'fresh' every time that'll always be really balanced and always be viable on every killer, but I think if they addressed some of the above, it'd make some maps feel better.

dugman

I don't normally complain too much about the maps honestly. Some of the things that I might consider would be:

• Size - Ideally all the maps should be roughly the same size in terms of total tiles. Maps that are too large are painful for killers with limited mobility, maps that are too small would be oppressive for survivors who have to keep avoiding the killer all the time. If I had to guess I'd say around 140-160 is probably a good size which is where a lot of maps currently are. (I think Ormond is the median size at 156). Once you get to the 170 or so range it starts to feel too large.
• Safe pallet numbers - I'd say two or maybe three super safe pallets is probably about the right number. So that might be, for instance, one at Shack, one in a main building, and another maybe elsewhere in the map. You can have pretty much any number of "unsafe" pallets you want because since those are beatable if the killer outmaneuvers the survivor they feel fair for both sides. But the ones where it's impossible to catch a survivor unless you break the pallet should be limited to a handful spread around the map. For example, on PTB, I don't like how there are now two super safe pallets on the stairs in the main areas of each of the new RPD maps. Those maps should spawn either one or the other of those pallets, never both at the same time, particularly because I'm pretty sure there are already also one or two other safe pallets elsewhere on those maps.
• Breakable Walls - I like breakable walls as a killer, I think they're interesting. Ideally, breakable walls should be something that the killer doesn't feel forced to break to avoid an infinite loop, but that should still feel like if you spend the time breaking them it's worth the effort. So the walls if unbroken should create a strong but still potentially beatable loop, and if they are broken should significantly weaken that strong loop into a noticeably shorter chase. What should be avoided would be walls which either serve literally no purpose (e.g. some of the walls in Dead Dawg have almost no effect on chases at all so breaking them is a waste of time), or even worse walls that if broken actually make the area stronger for the survivor (e.g. if I recall correctly one of the walls in the Springwood preschools for instance creates a potential infinite loop if broken.) They also shouldn't create complete dead ends, such as for instance there was a breakable wall in the upper floor of the Saloon which, in left unbroken, made the room a dead end if a survivor went through its window.
• Totems - Ideally totem locations should be as plentiful as can be practically done to make it harder to memorize and search all the possible totem spots, but within some guidelines.
  • Totems shouldn't be in positions that are totally out in the open easily visible from a main pathway.
  • Totems should generally speaking not be in hard to reach second floor areas of buildings. That's because if a Boon is placed on such a totem it makes it a losing proposition for the killer to go and try and snuff it, but at the same time because of how ranges are calculated such Boons end up covering the entire building in the process. The Ironworks second floor totem spots are a good example of this - getting up the stairs to snuff the Boon there takes so much time because of the circuitous path you have to take that it's not worth it but meanwhile it's covering the entire central building area. (Fortunately there aren't too many such totem spawns, it's probably just a handful of five or six or seven. So maybe someday the devs can actually take a pass at them and move them to the ground floor.)
  • Totems shouldn't be too close together, ideally they should be more or less equally spread out around the map.
  • And finally obviously why they should be hard to see they shouldn't be jammed so tightly in a corner or obstacle that a player would have trouble interacting with it to either place a Boon or cleanse or snuff it.
• No Dead Ends - This was an issue with the old version of RPD that's being replaced where it had rooms that were basically dead ends. Dead ends on indoor maps are just not fun for anybody that gets stuck in them, and they make figuring out how to get around a map that much more annoying. So especially on indoor maps and large buildings there should normally be at least two easy to see ways in and out of the room. The new versions of RPD maps fortunately look much better in this regard, they opened up a bunch of the dead end rooms and it seems like those new maps are now that much easier to get around in.
• Lines of Sight and Sight Blockers - This one is kind of harder to objectively quantify, but a good map has a mix of being able to see long distances down main pathways but also has enough line of sight blockers that there are ample ways for a player to not immediately be seen by an opposing player. You want the long lines of sight to promote the killer actually finding the survivors, but you also need the obstacles and walls to block line of sight so that survivors have a chance to try and hide and also so the killers who are stealthy can have a chance to sneak up on unsuspecting targets. I think most maps already do this pretty well. Midwich for instance has nice long hallways that you can see people coming and going, but it also has a bunch of shelves and fences and things that can give survivors cover in the side rooms. Dead Dawg has a nice open main thoroughfare and area around the gallows but also smaller alleyways and various shrubs to block sight.
• Lighting - I think the lighting can vary from map to map, it's nice having some maps like Ormond and Eyrie be brighter than, say, Gas Heaven. However I don't like when sections of maps are so dark you literally have trouble seeing where you're going at all. Running into walls in the upper floor of the main house of the Garden of Joy for example is a place I think the lighting is too dark. Another example would be the old version years ago of The Game had a lower level that was oppressively dark, I was constantly frustrated trying to stumble my way around not even being able to see the walls in some sections. The current version has a significantly brighter lower level, it's still dim in some places for atmosphere but not so black you can't make out the walls so it's much more enjoyable for me now in terms of the lighting.
• Landmarks - As an aesthetic point, every map should have something that, after the match, you can think back and say "Oh yeah, I was on the map that had (such and such)". For instance, Gas Heaven has the main building and also the sign with its name on it. That makes it distinguishable from Blood Lodge which has its own much different looking structure. A counter example would be the Springwood maps, there are five different Springwood maps and as far as I know they all have the same looking preschool, two houses and street with an ambulance on it. I played a match just last night on a Springwood map and I couldn't tell you if it was map 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5. To me that makes them feel way too similar aesthetically. They could use something, including a name change from just "1/2/3/4/5", so that after I play on a Springwood map I can know exactly which map it was and enjoy whatever the unique feature was that makes it special.

ReikoMori

Coal tower, Treatment Theatre, Red Forest is alright for a big map, Dead Dawg Saloon, and Thompson House

RPD, Erie, Hawkins and Garden all have some combination of size, palette count, and poor lighting issues that just make them unfun to play on.

ThatOneDemoPlayer

@Smoe said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3137352#Comment_3137352

Could you elaborate on what makes a main building busted and what the ideal main building layout should be?

Haddonfield and Garden Of Joy are the definition of "busted main building". God Windows basically everywhere, all of which are uncounterable.

Going there as a Survivor means you either escape chase for free, or you waste a huge amount of the Killer's time

I don't really know what an ideal main building layout could be, maybe Coal Tower's main building.

All the Windows are strong, but the Breakable Walls (as much as I hate them) balance them out. Same goes for Gas Haven main building

Smoe

@ReikoMori said:

Coal tower, Treatment Theatre, Red Forest is alright for a big map, Dead Dawg Saloon, and Thompson House

RPD, Erie, Hawkins and Garden all have some combination of size, palette count, and poor lighting issues that just make them unfun to play on.

Could you specify what makes maps like Coal Tower, Treatment Theatre & Red Forest alright?

Also what about maps like RPD, Erie, Hawkins & Garden should change to make them better overall in your opinion?