The Grind is actually going up because they removed the bp bonuses
BBQ and Chili was a reliable method of effectively halving the grind. If you wanted all perks on all characters without prestiging it would take approximately 447 million blood points. (1.6 million per character, then 318 - 60 = 258. 258 / 2 = 129. Multiply by 50000 and then by 31 survivors. For killers it's 288 - 60 = 228. 228 / 2= 114. Then multiply by 50k and then 28 killers)
Under the new system it's simpler. You just reach P3 on each character. Which means it's 1.6 million * 3 * 59. Which equals 283 million bp.
Under the old system if you earned 24k per match on average and got 4 stacks of BBQ and Chili it would take you 9313 trials to do so
Under the new system without BBQ and Chili bonuses if you earned the same bp without BBQ an Chili it would take you 11792 trials to do so. An INCREASE of 26%
Keep in mind that if the multiplier was base kit (which promotes healthy gameplay and benefits neither side in match) it would only reduce to 5896 trials a decrease of just 36%
The only savings is if you wanted to P3 every character with every perk, which is a major savings. It'd take about 824 million bp and 17179 trials. But prestiging under the old system was a not worth investing in. Especially for new players.
Ultimately the grind is not really being reduced. Yes, they are adding matchmaking incentives. But those incentives are not as reliable as the perks. If they didn't want us to have to use perks to lessen the grind they should have either doubled the bp per match to compensate or included the multiplier at basekit to compensate. Otherwise the grind reduction they are bragging about is halved from it's potential. I don't think including the multiplier at basekit would be so crazy. It would also feel a lot less bad for everyone.
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Yeah, I disagree with large portions of that, especially the conclusion. There are justifications for removing the bonuses. No perk should be mandatory because it had a bonus. You will also start seeing profit from the new system much earlier than you conclude (You wrote hundreds, maybe even thousands of hours. So I am assuming you mean 600+ hours. You're going to see gains before then). And this is all still assuming that everyone was grinding with these perks being mandatory, and we know that's not true. Not everyone is using them.
What you are talking about is optimally grinding to get one functional character, and at the end of the day you may be right on that one - but that doesn't change the total reduction, which you've already noted, and it doesn't change that it's functionally a better system with more upsides. If I P1 4 characters with meta perks, on either side, I can functionally play every survivor or killer after minimal investment. You just can't do that right now. Especially killers, who have perk divergences. With the new system maybe you P1 5-6 killers instead for a much healthier perk roster than you could ever get with the same investment currently.
Edit: You commented on some of the killer nuances, but lets be honest you wrote a really large post and these are working hours, so I did my best to scour your thread for the arguments that directly contradict mine.
One more Edit because I have no self control: In your worst case scenario, where a new player doesn't benefit from this system to the same extent an older player does, that only applies if the player IMMEDIATELY stops playing the game after reaching that breakpoint. Let's all hope that these players will continue to play, and the new system will encourage that.
I think reaching 9 levels to unlock the perks T3, bloody cosmetic, and the charms is ridiculous. 450 levels on each character….when we are already at 60 something characters and growing. I don’t see how the grind is reduced at all. Seems way worse. Unless I am just wrong?
The grind doesn't really factor in prestige cosmetics; only the perks.
Since no longer p3ing any killers, dumping all my BP into BUbba for cakes, will probably have over 500 on him by end of event, so thats a few games I dont have worry about BBQ LOL
Only if I have been using WGLF in every single match since I've started playing, which I haven't. So..... again, No. Not to mention the Role Incentive bonuses will be a flat percentage that won't require me to do the same actions to build up WGLF.
Dude, you're just wrong. It's okay. I know you have Unbreakable, but that's no reason to die on this hill.
Are you amateurs NOT pouring every bp you earn into Kate Denson? Disgraceful, lol jk
Eh, BBQ second effect isn't terrible on killers that can find survivors fast like doc
Never said it was.
I know yeah, I was just saying, because I guess it was just an automatic thought because we're in this thread talking about BBQ and WGLF, lol
Not at all for me. I think there primary effects have value, BHVR just really dropped the ball on Perks + BP integration. Why only one perk for each side? Why not have every perk offer some BP incentives based on getting value out of it? So many missed opportunities to rewards players for utilizing multiple loadouts and playstyles. I would have rather them gone that route, but removing the bonuses from WGLF and BBQ was an acceptable nuclear option.
If you want the perks on a single character Prestige them 3 times (You will most likely have everything by the time you even reach Prestige 3 if you prioritize non teachable perks).
All others you only need to level to 40.
How is this so difficult to understand?
I'm talking about the issue of addons and items. Especially with killers that have only a few decent addons you'll burn through several bloodwebs at a time to get the ones you need.
That’s the point. If you only want perks on one character it’s going to take twice as long since bp gains are gutted to ”compensate”
Math wise the grind is going down by 75% because now you need less levels to get all the perks, however because bbq is leaving and wglf is leaving we effectively take twice as long to get through each level per character because bp GAINED is cut in half, so it more effectively is removing 37.5% of the grind instead of 75% because those levels will take twice as long so the only real value is not needing to level up the other characters 5-6 times every time a new one is added, so instead of 200 levels then 150 extra its only 200 levels but those levels take twice as long
None of the calculations are done assuming the use of the BP bonus, it's just a flat number of webs increase particularly on the survivor side to reach a maxed out character asap.
My conclusion is also not to keep BP bonuses on perks, I agree that being locked into perks for points is bad, but they should just be base kit. I'm also basing my judgements on how long it's taken me to progress through the current system, and I'm still miles from finished, and that's with a substantially higher amount of time on the killer side using BBQ whenever I've had it unlocked, that definitely will be slower with lower BP gains.
Then we should remove perk tiers. But for some reason BHVR did not want to do it.
But anyway... Why is at issue to be able to get all perks on max tier in a reasonable time? Probably because they still want to make it hard, because bloodpoints lose value if you have unlocked everything, and then e.g. matchmaking incentives stop working. But I think BHVR is implementing this the wrong way. Perks should be free/easy to get. Add-ons and items should be difficult: then you are motivated to perform well so that you can finance your iri add-ons.
Assuming everyone currently uses, and gets 4 stacks of, WGLF/BBQ every single game...
Which they don't. BBQ has a 42% use rate, WGLF is merely 11%.
At a wild guess, I'd say you'd get 4 full stacks around 60% of games for BBQ and less for WGLF.
So I'd give BBQ a generous average of 25% bonus BP across the board.
Which you'll likely get all the time via the new queue incentive bonus. And it won't cost you a perk slot.
And I don't understand how can BHVR let this happen, this way they sell less cosmetics and lose money. Example: I would really buy this cool Nea skin, but I have only 20 perks on her, so I won't buy it, because I won't play Nea and I am not willing to level her up because of a skin.
And you will play only bubba? I am spreading the cakes evenly between killers (a bit more on killer I play more often). This way no matter what killer I play I will have a cake.
After this change, you'll automatically have every perk on Nea. Assuming you've already leveled everyone to 40 for their teachables.
You are mixing up the numbers... It is going down by 75%, i.e. falling to 25% of the original grind... But without bbq it is 2 times harder, so it is falling only to 50 % of the original, i.e. it is going down by 50 percent.
That's true, but not on tier 3, and I don't like playing with unnecessary handicap.
"Without bbq it's 2 times harder"
No it's not.
Except that's not true, we already know that WGLF and BBQ are not providing DOUBLE the points we would normally get. They're not that optimized, they don't get 100% of their value just for equipping them and no-one ran them 100% of the time unless the grind was their only concern.
I mean I have bbq on every single killer atm and its in their build so
Anecdotal and irrelevant.
By your own point anecdotal and relevant
Seriously dude...
Also...
This will most likely never get seen, but ima try anyway. I have a solution for the lost BP bonuses that could be done basekit.
Killer: get 25% per 1st hook on a survivor, up to 100%. Once any survivor is dead, stacks can no longer be gained.
Survivor: get 25%, up to 100% for safe unhooks/protection hits. Also get up to 1 stack per trial for each of the following.... complete a full gens worth of progress, heal a total of 2 health states on any other survivor, stay on death hook for the entire duration without missing more than 1 skillcheck.
If youre reading this, please upvote it in the hopes that devs can see it
While more BP wpuld obviously be nice. The new queue incentive bonuses will more or less make up for it.
It'll always be at least +25% for one side or the other, and most likely +100% for killer during peak times.
not a great point because were not always in events and such the "1/7th" extra bp is still an extra 30k every match when put in perspective it does more than the other ones can ever do combined
The problem with that is that the entire idea behind those incentives is to balance the amount of players on each side. Once there is balance, theres no need for a bonus. That is their intention. So the way i think it will play out is early on, bonuses will swing wildy as ppl chase those points until one of two things happen. A) matchmaking finds its optimal balance, thus minimizing or outright eliminating the need for bonuses or, B) the more likely scenario, an increasing number of ppl will feel like the role they want to play always gets the shaft and us vs them mentality will increase to a point where more ppl will leave the game or become more toxic than they already are.
I give up.
You made me chuckle. Good discussion. Was a pleasure, good sir.
I can’t speak to why perk tiers exist in the first place or why they’re locked as teachables under specific characters. But given those requirements the new Prestige system costs a lot less to “grind” perks out than the current system.