Balancing with drawbacks is a bad idea
It gets a little old, having killers, their perks, or their powers get nerfed or have a mass of suggestions calling for their nerfing. A lot of what people say is "X is too strong. It needs a drawback."
First of all, a lot of stuff already has drawbacks. Pop has a measly 45 seconds to be used, and Adrenaline Vial massively reduces your turn rate. But those aren't enough in people's eyes; no, they need to be nerfed again! I digress.
Secondly, why? Why should they have drawbacks? Killer powers are supposed to be meaningful and usable, something that they can't be if there's a drawback. Clown's yellow bottles can speed up the survivors, and Deathslinger's chain can be manipulated heavily and broken by the survivors. Killer perks and add-ons are supposed to straight-up improve the killer; they'd have to do that or there'd be no point in them. So you have add-ons like Pig's crouch add-ons, Trapper's disarm time add-ons, Wraith's uncloak speed add-ons. You also have various killer perks that may or may not be used in the meta. But the moment you give a killer a meaningful advantage in those add-ons or perks, people call for nerfs, especially via the introduction of drawbacks. And I'll tell you: that doesn't work.
We've seen countless ridiculous killer nerfs, clearly based around making the game easier for casual survivors, but made in the spirit of "fixing problematic aspects of the game." But as we've seen with many of those nerfs, they don't even nerf the part that people hated. You can still zone people out with Deathslinger, because guess what? His instascope wasn't the problem. You can still instadown people with Clown's Pinky Finger, because guess what? His bottle count wasn't the problem. You can still injure people with Engineer's Fang, because guess what? His number of chains wasn't the problem. All these nerfs have done is make killers' jobs harder, appease casual survivors, and irritate self-proclaimed competitive survivors because it wasn't "the right kind of nerf". The survivors who died and complained about these killer powers, perks, and add-ons are still doing so.
So you might say, "Drawback-based balancing can still work! We just need the RIGHT ones!" No. Nothing makes it work. Not only should these killer things, especially add-ons, be strong, they should also have no drawbacks. If the effect is so strong that it 'needs' a drawback, don't make it an add-on (or perk or killer power). Just don't do it, because it's not worth the hassle of this never-ending argument. We'll then start complaining that killer add-ons are generally weak, because the strong yet drawbacky ones would no longer be with us, but at least then we don't have to worry about stupid drawbacks. But back to the present, I have not seen one killer perk or add-on that has enough strength that it should require a drawback. Change around add-on rarities if you want, so that the stronger ones make more sense, but they don't need drawbacks. With a lot of these things that have drawbacks, and things that people want to have drawbacks, the drawbacks are so great that nobody even wants to use the thing. Let me give some examples.
Add-ons/perks that currently have drawbacks:
-Last Will (Pig): Increases the ambush attack speed, but increases the charge time.
-Trapper Sack (Trapper): Start with all traps on hand, but can't pick them up once set down.
-Ink Egg (Artist): Gives Artist an additional crow, but they disintegrate quicker.
-Deer Lung (Demogorgon): Increases portal travel speed, but decreases total portals by 2.
-Yakyoke Amulet (Spirit): Phase lasts longer and increases recovery rate, but decreases phasing speed by 15%.
-Iridescent Seal (Plague): When a gen gets done you get vile purge, but vile purge is 20 seconds shorter.
-Surge: Damages nearby generators, but it has to be with a basic attack, and there's a 40-second cooldown.
-Hex: Pentimento: Can relight hexes to create Pentimento, but only once each.
Highly requested drawbacks for add-ons/perks:
-Engineer's Fang (Pinhead): Shouldn't injure.
-Pinky Finger (Clown): Shouldn't expose.
-Flask of Bleach (Clown): Shouldn't slow so much.
-Pop: Should only last less than 45 seconds and be cancelled by Blast Mine.
-NOED: Should require hooks to gain exposed effect.
-Dead Man's Switch: Should last less than 45 seconds and shouldn't work on Artist.
The results we've seen from this kind of balancing have been bad, the proposed ideas using this same system have been worse, and the precedent it sets is very dangerous for the future of the game. If things that are "too strong" should have drawbacks, then we have to come to a consensus on what "too strong" is, and that's certainly not gonna happen. So people will continue wanting drawbacks on things that they deem strong, and the devs will give it to them, because they hate to disappoint, and the goalpost of that will continually move towards weaker add-ons. It seems crazy right now to suggest that "Windstorm needs a drawback" or "Fuming Mix Tape needs a drawback", but hey, those will be seen as too strong to some people, so they need that drawback. That's the direction this kind of drawback-based balancing takes us in. Doesn't matter the skill level of the people making the request, as long as it's popular and follows this easy-way-out system. It is, and will continue to be, disastrous.
Comments
Some things just do not need the drawbacks attached, but some things do. IMO, engineers fang is a good example. I actually think it is smart for it to have the drawback of it being able to injure but not be able to be used as a chase tool very effectively. It means he plays different and has new strengths. That is a good example of things with drawbacks. Imo addons like purples or Iridescents are ok to have certain drawbacks if they provide different ways to play a character. Myers is another good example.
When addons don't provide character altering changes though, they shouldn't have drawbacks. Something that simply adds a base buff to some sort of aspect of a kit shouldn't also have a drawback.
Killers kits, in general, is a bad example though, as "drawbacks" are just parts of their kits that are usually intended as part of counterplay. Being able to cut the chain of deathslinger isn't a drawback or even a bad part of his kit, it is part of his counterplay for survivors to use. Same with clown, the yellow gas affecting survivors isn't a weird drawback, it is a part of his counterplay where a clown has to use it well or risk a survivor getting to use it against him. With killers it IS a part of the balancing.
I think a more prominent problem that should be taken more serious is BHVR not being able to commit to buffs or nerfs. Seemingly every time they buff or nerf something, they also usually have to take something or destroy way more than needed as well. Take wraith, they buffed wraith but then also had to make him slow down to almost a standstill while decloaking. Sure that was a part of the basekit addon, but it still just felt unnecessary to an already weaker killer. Or slinger who ADS nerf was needed, but then also got the TR nerf. Just do the changes and see how they go, if they didn't take actual months to change simple numbers, it wouldn't be complained about so much in the community.
It sucks waiting actual years for something to change and then it being the laziest change in the world. BHVR isn't some 5 man indie team anymore.
Well it's a good thing balance isn't based on what you feel because those things you listed ABSOLUTELY need drawbacks. If Freddy fakes his power to pretend he's teleporting to a gen, it absolutely should take a while to recharge. Can you imagine how much survivor time he could waste by constantly faking gens as he go through the map? That's be way too strong.
Also you said killers never had anything as impactful as an insta heal. I believe those are called instadowns...... Ya know, the Iri Head, Pinky Finger, NOED, Devour, Rancor, Chainsaws, etc. Yes most of them have drawbacks or activation conditions (as they should) but the point is that you're really sitting here saying killers don't have an equivalent to an insta heal when there's literally over 10 instadowns in the game
If you think after going on a 100+ streak you are not high MMR, idk what to tell you. From what datamining has shown, you can be there after around 20 wins.
It's also nuts to say that you can win 100 games, and lose 1 game, and then hold that 1 game up and say a character is not viable. What about the other 100 games? Did those just not happen?
I win the overwhelming majority of my killer games, with all characters.
Do you think I would be farming this level of salt if I was bad at the game? I don't think so. Obviously I enjoy my basement Bubba, but you can 100% tunnel people to death with clown and he's really good at it. If you try for 12 hooks sure, he is bad.
So by your logic, something thats broken while something shouldnt be possible is fine. Another total disqualification on your side. congratz.
Exactly why dbd is dying, people don’t want to play killer with too many downsides, slow clunky animations, poor fov, too many sound cues and visual cues. And I’m pretty sure anybody new to killer will be easily turn off by playing legion or nurse and force to look at the ground all game
Given I don't have the time or ######### to give to argue this I shall respond in a simple manner, though, one I hope conveys my take on what you have placed here.
"Lmao."
Didn't mean to suggest that EF made Cenobite INTO a 'weaker legion' - I meant that it was like adding the passive effects of Legion to his kit for a low, low price. In the sense that, Legion's greatest strength is that in many cases - he either has massive slowdown or 1 kit downs. Cenobite has the same effect in that Survivors will take several seconds and precious resources to heal, but the Killer's ability to hit them with the chain is understandably simple, meaning healing in many cases is moot. In this way, EF adds the passive deterrence to his kit that Legion enjoys. Bringing Thanatophobia on him with this item is insane, because survivors must choose between being a 1 hit in chase and a 5% burden to their allies... or wasting 16 or so seconds healing when that health state is just going to get knocked off first thing. The Cenobite is incredibly strong in chase because of the physical hinderance that his power grants - making it so that survivors cannot realistically exchange health states while maintaining the potency of his power's ability in chase is stupefying in strength. Legion isn't in the greatest place, but taking Cenobite kit + Legion kit =/= Balance. Punishing survivors for healing and creating an existential threat for survivors that forces them away from gens is one of the killer's entire powers, which is something the EF attachment ADDS to the Cenobite's kit. Forcing the Cenobite player to choose if they want to maintain the Cenobite's powerful anti-loop ability or incorporate the Legion's passive deterrence from Objectives is a drawback that is needed for such a thing. I apologize if the language was confusing or poorly structured. I did not mean to say that the EF makes the Cenobite into a worse killer than Legion, I meant to say that it is strictly additive of the Legion's core benefits, meaning that it - by nature - requires drawbacks to make the exchange balanced.
Again, I think we're getting off topic in terms of talking about the overall balance of the game's ethos. How at high ranks, survivor perks going against killer perks and powers in certain maps have incredibly difficult results. There is a logic to be analyzed that supersedes common knowledge, base statistics, or emotional conclusions - true - but that's a separate conversation that we can have. We can't move to another issue until we do our due diligence and come to an agreement on the one at hand - even if that agreement is to 'agree to disagree' respectfully.
And I understand that you want survivor perks to be generally less useful than the almighty killer perks. But I beg to differ where there's a subtle insinuation that killer perks are themselves weak - or that survivor perks themselves are too strong to fail. Survivor perks are basically all contextual, meaning their strength has a very selective area of potency. The major problem is the overall balance of perks, which means that Meta perks are hot garbage to go against, as their situational value is either generally strong - or the context of their perk's value is so broad as to overshadow the conventions of the game. Asking for survivor perks to have better balance or asking for certain killer perks to be made stronger are completely valid suggestions and solid points to make. However, suggesting that | Drawbacks | are a bad part of balancing is a misplaced sentiment, my friend. More survivor perks should have Drawbacks, some killer perks should have less drawbacks - but Drawbacks are all a part of organic balance.
The hypothetical point of your examples are a bit... misguided.
If you don't see your desired target on BBQ, you have a general idea of where they are: nearby. Using the topography of the map, you can hazard an educated guess as to their whereabouts. That being said, I think that we're coming from different levels of play. In the sense that, I cannot speak to your own experiences just as you cannot speak to mine - so I mean no disrespect, but if everyone's playing without perks and you're still struggling as killer wholesale, we are probably having different experiences. In mine, killer perks are strong and can aid in a killer's mission to seize the momentum of the match and turn the tables of time into their favor instead - but survivors rely heavily on their perks and items to survive chases, to make strong plays, to waste killer time and protect their momentum. If the killer player goes Nemesis and no players have perks, items, or attachments - the Nemesis should be able to reliably come out on top. A good Huntress should have little difficulty chewing through survivor hook states. A competent Oni should be able to end the game relatively quickly once they begin to snowball. Survivor base interactions and some maps are very strong with pallets and gyms - with some main buildings being much stronger than others - but overall, if you know how to use your killer power and everyone loads in with nothing, the killer absolutely has the advantage. Unless you're playing Sadako. In that case... R.I.P.
I mean, saving 8 seconds when you're slugged isn't THAT big of a deal. If the killer is in a position to slug, the difference between 22 and 30 seconds is really not that big of a deal. Even if survivors use Unbreakable to disrupt a precarious slug situation, it was a gamble that paid off. It's no better than, say, Brutal Strength for that reason. Brutal Strength can save precious time. If a survivor puts themselves in a position where that fraction of a second is the difference between life and death - they outplayed themselves. Slugging can be necessary in certain plays, but if someone already used their Unbreakable - or you have observed its affects in game - then you can do the mental math and tell when they're going to pick themselves up or reach find-help. Saving 8 seconds on a highly situational, completely contextual, and relatively uncommon interaction where that 8 seconds may or may not be of any use (I.E. nobody comes to help) it's really not that big of an impact. If you place the perk in its most powerful interaction and the best case scenario is that they have 1 anti-slug action, and nothing else, then it's a balanced perk. It's the equivalent of saying that Decisive Strike would have no drawbacks if, after use, it granted +0.3% wiggle progress on great skill checks. Well, yes it's a bonus, but if you're in a spot where the extra 0.9 seconds is all the difference in the world - you've got bigger fish to fry.
Yeah... setting a perk back to 'square one' is a drawback. Here, I'll make an illustration for you:
If perks find value, they are 1, if they add a lot of value, they are 2. If they add no value, they are 0. With 4 perk slots, survivors have an average 'Perk score' of 4 and a maximum of 8. If you go Deliverance, Unbreakable, Adrenaline, and Decisive Strike... but you don't get a safe unhook before you lose in chase, never slugged, not tunneled, and die before the gens are completed - your Perks have done 0 for you. If you Got a Deliverance, Picked yourself up, stunned a tunneling killer, and got a mid-chase health state at the end of the match, your perks gave you an 8/8 in terms of value. Having a build like this may give you 8, it may give you 0. That itself is enough.
If you try to use Slippery Meat in the match, you're more likely than not to put yourself in the struggle stage. Virtually killing yourself on hook is not 'having no drawbacks' unfortunately.
If you want to unhook yourself, you choices are: Get a safe unhook first and become broken after - or - 2 our of 3 times you use this perk it kills you faster instead.
Those are hefty drawbacks, and if it were not the case, you'd see it a lot more frequently.
I really don't understand the mentality here.
BT and DS are very easy to play around in many cases. You hit them after you count to 8 and leave them on the ground. You can go for a grab - sure - but you can also go for the unhooking survivor instead. The counter to BT is counting to 8, the counter to DS is leaving the unhooked survivor, or slugging them to pursue another. While not super ideal - removing a health state from survivors and either pulling allies back will waste more survivor time, or at the very least eat up their Unbreakable. It's not at all as if they don't have counterplay. They are very strong perks, but their context is highly specific. Remove that context, and the perks fizzle.
I firmly disagree that killers MUST do these things. Especially in the cases where they are seeing the returns dwindle from bad turns of luck.
If bringing perks like Tinkerer, Agitation, Thanataphobia, and Monitor and Abuse relegates your match to certain defeat - I have some pressing curiosities as to your methods while playing Killer, especially when the primary suggestion of this thread are concerns about Drawbacks used to balance perks with concentrated potency.
While some perks are certainly better than others for the meta, you really don't have to play super high risk high reward perks to preform well in match.
Especially so - if your perks are carrying you to MMR levels you cannot sustain, it may be better to forego the meta perks and let yourself sink to an MMR level you can better enjoy.
It's a game, it's not worth getting frustrated over because killer certain strong perks and their combos can become unreliable in certain circumstances.
Thing is, what you call a "drawback" isnt always a drawback. DH doesnt need a nerf/additional drawback because you get exhausted. Does that sound right to you? Then why nerf DH?
"Clowns yellow bottles speed up survivors" Yeah, but they are sped up less, let alone that survivors also get slowed down and can only medium vault windows when slowed down. Having both speed and slowdown would make Clown horrendous to play against, hence the "drawback" that survivors get sped up too(even though their boost is less than Clown). Let alone that Clown has had other drawbacks removed or reduced too. Adding one back in on top of being an additional tool that can be used in his advantage isnt really a drawback. Killers have to be fun to face too.
"Slingers chain can be manipulated heavily" not really, only if you actively move forwards as Slinger, any other direction and survivors would be lucky to get caught behind anything. "Survivors can break it too" well, yeah, everything with collision helps break the chain, thats not an additional drawback.
As for addons, that heavily depends on what they change. Because lets take Adrenaline Vial for example. It's only "drawback" is reducing turn rate, which isnt really an issue for a killer who can bounce into the nearest object and turn significantly. But then again, the old instaheal removed both addons and item entirely, that was a huge drawback, so what was the issue there, why did it need a nerf? Because the power was always beneficial compared to the drawback.
Just look at Yugioh for the basics of balancing. Pot of Greed, why is it banned in every tournament? Because it was basically a card you could put in your deck to reach the minimal amount of cards required, but pulling it means you can draw 2, so you could basically draw 3 cards and discard 1. In a game where 1 card can make the difference between a loss and a win, thats huge. So what is the reworked card? Pot of Desires, where you delete 10 random cards from play, only to draw 2 cards. People still use this card nearly as actively as Pot of Greed, because being able to draw 3 cards in 1 turn is just that powerful.
Now back to DBD, where 2% difference in speed can be the difference between a 10 second chase and a 40 second chase. Resillience and Spine Chill is often strong enough to make killers go for a swing that they will miss, and that's only reducing the time to vault by 0.3 seconds. And you're asking why any drawbacks at all?
The game you're asking for, is basically 2016 DBD, where nothing really had a drawback, you could use Sprintburst into a window, only to use Lithe to get a second burst while Sprintburst was 20 seconds away of being ready for use again.
Zoning out survivors wasnt the issue with Deathslinger, it was the fact that he could do it for free. Now he does it with a drawback. Let alone that Slinger could also guarantee a lot of hits that most killers simply couldnt without having a significant drawback(even Nurse would have a 3 second fatique AFTER the hit cooldown with the survivor being capable of adjusting plans last second to potentially dodge, Slinger could just aim/let go/aim/let go/aim/shoot/hit within 1.5 seconds and then have the hit cooldown, without the survivor being able to do anything about it. Slinger wasnt powerful, but once he was in range, it was harder to dodge a hit than a Nurse. That's simply consistently frustrating to play against. You do not want to create an opponent that can hit you without you having any chance to do anything about it. Because in that scenario, why even go for a loop at all? Why not just start hiding hardcore, making the game also super boring for Slinger. He probably would spend more time checking all the lockers than it takes him to reload with both reload addons and just quickscope you again. THAT was the issue. It wasnt the zoning, it was the fact that he could guarantee a hit without having any real downsides to it. You simply cant have that. That's like survivors being able to unhook in front of you without having any downsides to it.
And I agree that Clown's pinky finger wasnt changed correctly, but at the very least, the current nerf cannot have the Feather addon to spam 2 bottles and then guarantee an instadown. My guess is they altered it because it was easier for now(even though Clown has an addon that gives him 2 bottles, and a similar addon that caps the amount of inventory also exists, but ok), and my hope is they change it further that the instadown only applies to survivors who are not intoxicated at all, meaning you cant spam bottles to guarantee a down at all, but again, that's a whole different effect and requires a full rework, which requires more time, and pinky finger is used a lot less often because it cannot be combined with the Feather addon anymore to spam.
As for addon rarities, I rather keep the more useful addons common and the addons that require specific builds to be rarer thank you very much. Not all addons follow this logic, but more and more seem to do, which is nice. As for addons being too niche, yeah, I'd agree. While Mother's Helpers are very much in check with the lore for Billy, the pay-off you get for it is far too small. I dont neccesarily think the drawback is too much, since that addon is clearly designed around Spirit Fury and Enduring(which were common perks for Billy), its that the drawback outweighs the benefit too much.
Now, to your list of addons:
Last Will, its fine. Just giving her extra distance is going to be insane on a lot of loops, the drawback is needed just to add a risk to that gained distance. It's still a total increase.
Trapper Sack, even mains like Otz have stated that starting with all traps is insanely powerful, it absolutely needs a drawback, and not being able to pick up traps might sound super strict, but if you ever played with Trapper Sack, especially in combination with other addons, you'd know its not that big of a deal. You spend 0 time gathering traps, you can instantly create a perimeter thats insanely dangerous for survivors to take a wrong step and then you can simply harrass survivors into that zone. Where normally, Trapper tends to lose 3-4 gens before his traps start snowballing. Thats just 1 out of 2 addons, and not even taking perks into consideration.
Ink Egg, not really any downside to it, just forces you to play a bit smarter or launch your crows faster, and you'd get an entire additional crow.
Deer Lung, again, the kind of addon that has really nasty combinations with other addons and perks. The other drawback I would suggest instead of 2 portals removed is survivors being able to clear them 2-3x faster, which would harm him much more.
Yakuyoke Amulet is one of Spirit's strongest addons, it's drawback is non-existent when combined with Mother Daughter Ring.
Iri Seal is a bit more niche, but it also means 5 guaranteed pukes where you'd normally get 1. Combine it with Tinkerer, and you can charge a generator without being noticed and suddenly you have a free down, maybe multiple, in exchange for a gen, regardless if it lasted a shorter amount.
Surge is a bit of a weird one, and I feel like most of it is due to maps like The Game that are relatively small and could easily hit multiple gens in a row. You could have a Myers in T3 potentially activate Surge 3 times and regress all gens on the map. It's the kind of perk I like to use in my argument to change perk tiers into map tiers, where some downsides/upsides are only available on certain map sizes due to it being too strong/too weak on small or big maps. But that is a different discussion alltogether.
Pentimento is amazing, survivors waste 14(or more) seconds removing a totem only to create more for them to cleanse while slowing down gens with 6 stacks of Thanatophobia. The more totems you can relight, the stronger the initial effect gets. If you can place 4 totems, it would take survivors a minimal of 42 survivor seconds just to cleanse the totems, not taking in account the time it takes to retrace steps. Being able to keep relighting Pentimento would be extremely overpowered.
As for your "highly requested" section, which I tend to call paranoia BS for the most part:
Engineers Fang, no, I have only heard people request that it could also down survivors. Maybe the request to remove the injury was because it could be stacked with additional chains to the point where it was basically an instadown addon as Pinhead could vault through shack window before you could even reach the dropped pallet.
Pinky Finger, I havent ever seen that, maybe people requesting it to be reworked to not have an exposed status and instead an entirely different one, but I have seen similar requests to mine pop up very rarely, and I have seen that one 1000x more than people simply requesting the exposed status to be removed.
Flask of Bleach, probably the only one I have actually seen enough to be considered "highly requested". Clown already reduces movementspeed by 20% with his standard bottles, then he has a bottle to increase his own speed too. That's not even talking about how much easier it makes to hit Pinky Finger. Like I stated earlier, you want killers to still be fun. Flask of Bleach needs a rework. Personally, I'd rather have survivors have less visibility, which would overall work better in Clown's favor.
Pop, never really seen that one. The only thing I would change is to base it's regression on the amount of progression, like Boil Over does(oh look, another example of a perk that already had a downside, that wasnt "downsidey" enough, but weirdly not mentioned here).
NOED, I have seen that one, but not really highly requested. I've seen people suggest it to change it's activation method to be healthier. And one of those suggestions that are more common are indeed hooking everyone once for it to activate. But I have seen people request a full on rework more. I have seen people ask about NOED being just invisible all game to the point that cleansing 5 totems is still the only guaranteed way to get rid of it, but that there is a chance for players to have cleansed NOED earlier in the game more often than hooking people to charge NOED.
DMS, well, yeah, it needs a change, especially because of Artist. Artist right now can basically camp a hook and block gens for 45 seconds by spamming crows. Thats a free hookstate with 0 progression. Personally, I'd say it should have 2 countdowns, 1 countdown of 25 seconds where any generator that is being let go gets locked up and any gen that does get locked up gets blocked for the remainder of the cooldown. That would actively reward killers chasing off survivors from gens. Right now, it's basically a Scourge Hook/Hex ability without being a one.
But anyway, here's a list of things that I have learned with your logic:
DS, didnt have any deactivation method, with your logic given, it should be reverted, right? It wasnt nerfed, only given drawbacks.
Exhaustion in general should be removed, no need to have 2 perks share the same cooldown for any reason.
Instaheals should come back, it already had drawbacks before.
2019 toolboxes definitely should return, nothing wrong with them, they would be used up and disappear, and with survivor BP gains, thats a huge cost.
Boil Over could be reverted, no issues there. Cant be anything that's too strong in niche scenario's right? If they bring Boil Over and RPD, that's simply them outplaying you.
Circle of Healing overlapping was not an issue at all, the drawback was already that you had to find totems in the first place.
I could go on and on and on. You're obviously biased in your assessment and just want killers to be stronger. But for what reason? Because it's the killer's job to kill and they shouldnt be given a drawback for trying to kill? Well, it's survivors job to escape and they shouldnt be given a drawback for trying to escape either, right? The killer should work on that. So lets remove window blockers there too, because it's only a drawback for using windows.
Funny how your logic brings us back to 2016 DBD where every veteran player will tell you that today's balance is healthier for both sides.
Nothing wrong with giving perks and addons drawbacks, ideally the stronger they are the bigger the drawback but there is such a thing as cramming too many drawbacks or just giving them extremely pointless ones. Let's take for example Surge, fairly strong and useful perk that's limited by its range and 60 cooldown but for some reason it needs to have extra drawback of basic attacks only. Why? It doesn't need that because the cooldown itself is pretty fair for 8% progress lost on down. And for the addons we got Freddy's black box. It blocks the exit for 12 seconds but ONLY if the survivor is asleep. Again, why? Why does it have to be so specific? Just weird and nonsensical balancing choices.
It really wasnt that hard, maybe on console, but here's the combination:
That's it. Then slap on perks like Pop, Bamboozle, Enduring and NOED and just patrol the 3-gen region for free kills. You didnt really need to learn anything but hit bottles as Clown, so no good bottle shots to gain an advantage, no bottles to cut off survivors(well, a bit, but they didnt have to be good), no bottles on long distance to see if survivors are inside a certain area, just bottles on survivors.
Not a single map where you couldnt guarantee at least 2 kills. You could easily hook survivors faster than they could finish the gen, especially after toolboxes were nerfed. And if they somehow managed to finish the gen, well, 1 survivor would always be dead, so you'd just slow them down and hit them with NOED.
In "normal" play, pinky finger wasnt much of an issue, but it created scenario's that basically made it a free win for killer without much effort. That's always an issue. That's like bringing 1 medkit and being able to fully heal a survivor from dying state to full health when they are the only survivor that can be killed. That's like bringing 1 toolbox and instantly finishing a generator when you just hit spacebar. Old BNP wasnt always an issue, a lot of players used it to finish a gen when the killer was coming. It started becoming an issue when people used BNP at 0% of gens.
'Drawbacks' is a bit...imprecise.
I prefer the risk/reward paradigm.
Some perks are low risk/low reward. Sloppy is a good example of this. It does it's thing automatically, but isn't that impactful.
Some perks are high risk/high reward. Pop is a good example - the effect is strong, but you need to deliver it to the gen. Pain Resonance and Devour are even stronger - but are offset by RNG.
This is just how games work.
There's little point in continuing this conversation because we're talking about completely different definitions of "viable". I know my definition of viable is usually different than others, even though it shouldn't be, so I shouldn't have to preface what I mean by "viable", but I will do so again anyway. To be viable, a killer needs to be able to beat survivors who do gens fast, because tournament-level gen speed is achievable by the average Joe if they just do the gens. You will see this when you lose games purely because of gens; try playing without Corrupt at high MMR. So to be viable, a killer needs to have near-instantaneous chases, which leaves a majority of the killers/perks/add-ons, that you people mistakenly call "viable", with a lot to be desired. It's why nerfing Engineer's Fang and Pinky Finger made no sense, because even with those the killers weren't viable.
And yes, Myers does have a brown add-on with a downside. Can't make this up: Blond Hair, which increases the stalking amount to get to tier 3 by a whopping 50% for the first time, in exchange for a mere 10 extra seconds of tier 3. No wonder I always lost when using Myers' browns.
It never fails to astonish me when people say that the Wraith nerf was unfair, but that the Engineer's Fang and Deathslinger nerfs were fair.
I don't understand. If Freddy taps the gen with his power then cancels it, which usually is gonna happen by accident, how is that threatening to the survivor? You do realize that he has to hold that tp for a few seconds to actually tp, right? He doesn't just instantly come out. My change would simply make it not so unforgiving if you used your power for a split second. I could say the same with Hillbilly and Spirit's powers.
The thing is that those instadowns always have counterplay and take skill. There's no counterplay or skill for a survivor pressing a button and getting someone from downed to full health in an instant. I'm guessing y'all are the type to heal against a killer when you know they have instadowns anyway.
I feel I've just wasted my time with this whole thing. You have ignored, diminished, or misconstrued just about every point I have raised. This game and these forums can sink. I'm done.
Well, at least we're all civil :)
You know what? You're right. If you redefine "viable" to mean "game-winning on its own", yes, nearly nothing in the game is viable.
I'm sure I don't need to mention that this definition of "viable" is very, very silly.
Wraith nerfs = understandable, but too heavy. Ditto 'Slinger. I get why they were nerfed, but they needed help elsewhere in their kit as the nerf didn't just make them weaker, it made them a lot less fluid and fun to play.
Fang nerf was entirely fair. It's still a very strong addon.
The deathslinger ADS nerf was fair and from what I've seen with most good deathslinger players, that isn't what hurt him. The TR nerf more than anything was just overkill and not necessary. The Engineer's Fang nerf was also fair, and I've been a hardcore pinhead main since he came out. It was an extremely high boost in strength for absolutely no cost. Every single chase was cut in half since injuring was not a worry, and then you still had his chase tool for slowdown. It was ridiculous and it now is still powerful with the cost being you have a worse chase tool for looping.
Wraith however was weak to a survivor knowing how to use windows, and yet he got nerfed because people only like facing predrop and hold w killers.
Who the ######### complains about adrenaline vial lmao
Everyone who has some kind of game sense? Its nothing new.
Can I recommend hollow knight?
Oh, I didnt ignore them, I just called you biased as you have ignored all perks and addons from the opposition in your post for no real reason, even though the drawbacks that were added on DS alone have had much bigger implications than Adrenaline Vial for example. You didnt raise any point worth considering, you simply made a post saying basically "plz make killer stronger, I dont feel strong enough and these drawbacks are holding me back". If drawbacks in balancing really was an issue, why not bring up any of the opposition? Because "SuRvIvOr'S aRe ToO sTrOnG, tHeY nEeD iT"?
If you really had a point at all, you would have also considered removing drawbacks on the survivor side, but you and I both know that DS without drawbacks will just lead to survivors doing gens in your face while using Unbreakable and No Mither, clearly giving a reason for drawbacks and thus invalidating your entire post.