Killer should also be able to DESTROY boon totems.
Killers are also be able to pick between destroy totem permanently -only if its blessed- or keep the totem but debless it.
Killers are also be able to pick between destroy totem permanently -only if its blessed- or keep the totem but debless it.
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I think boons just need a minute cooldown.
Agreed. it's so stupid that Boons are as powerful, if not MORESO than Hexes, yet Hexes are both 1 and done, and are applied randomly. Whereas Survivors can pick a good, hidden Totem and Bless it & waste a Killer's time trying to find it while they have super-sonic healing, or no scratch marks, or whatever else broken effect Survivors will get. 😑
We're still on this, are we? War never changes...
Anyway, I disagree. Destroying a totem not only runs the risk of messing with killer perks like Plaything or NOED (as well as providing an insane buff to Pentimento), but it also completely neuters boon totems from ever being the kind of mechanic they could be. They're so, so close to being an incredible addition to the game conceptually, but if they're one-time-use on any given totem, that dramatically cuts down their usefulness, and so nobody will ever run them.
Ask yourself this. Would Shadow Step or Exponential ever be worth using if the totem they're attached to could be removed entirely, when they're already so damn situational that one of them is only mediocre on the majority of maps and the other is actively awful?
Even if we need to do it for as long as it takes a survivor, some spots are brutal and need to be purged. Specifically on small maps with vertical elements. Cough... Midwich... Cough.
but if they're one-time-use on any given totem, that dramatically cuts down their usefulness, and so nobody will ever run them.
So...exactly like Hexes. They would then be Hexes for Survivors. You're saying Boons are only good because they are infinite use, which is what makes them OP.
There are two things wrong with this comparison!
1: Boons and hexes are not the same mechanic. They are not designed to work the same way, and part of that is that boons are designed to be limited range but replaceable at the cost of a time sink, whereas hexes are designed to be mapwide (+ supposedly more impactful to the core objective, but that's always been a bit dicier since there are more outliers) but temporary.
2: Hexes are in a bad spot right now. They're weaker than they should be. It'd be absolutely pants-on-head stupid balancing to give boons the same downsides as a perk type that needs some buffs/tweaks.
While I do agree that Boons need to be adjusted, I think CoH is the main issue here. Destroying totes for killers creates too many issues with other perks and game mechanics. It's not realistic to think they'll do that.
What they realistically could do is make it similar to waking someone up from the dream state where it takes a little bit longer every time to bless the same totem, but if you take the time to rotate to a different area and find/bless a different dull then it goes back to 14 seconds.
Killers destroying boons would be fair counterplay something that boons lack. It would allow the devs to buff the weaker boons in the same way undying was buffed to work better with token hexes since killers would have an actual answer to boons.
I dunno, Shadow Step and Exponential aren't really the problem here - COH is. I think 99% of killers would be happier with Plaything and NOED being inadvertently nerfed if it meant COH could only be set up 5 times a match, maximum
COH would easily still be meta if the bones were breakable, and that would still be a much more minor nerf compared to what hex undying got handed out. Shadow Step and Exponential probably wouldn't be worth running, but then again... they're not really worth running now anyways
I'm sorry, but to me; Boons are just strong Hex perks BECAUSE they were given to Survivors.
They also impact the game heavily: Hiding your scratch marks & aura from the Killer's powers/perks? Strong. Having DOUBLE the Recovery speed AND infinite chances to pick yourself up? Strong. Having DOUBLE the healing speed? Really effing strong! Oh yeah; and any time the Killer spend Snuffing is undone because Survivors can re-bless forever.
They are exactly the power level Hexes SHOULD be, but only 2 Hexes are anywhere close to being Hex-level powerful. The rest are utter jokes. Slop thrown to Killers long before Devs decided to suddenly make GOOD effects, and hand them to Survivors.
And since they ARE as powerful any the strongest Killer Hexes, in terms of game impact; they should be LIMITED like all Killer Hexes. it honestly does not surprise me that Boons are pointed at as yet more 'Devs care about Survivors more'. Because, even if they don't; it sure as hell LOOKS like they will always give Survivors OP toys to ratchet back inch by inch, and this mindset is reinforced when they took Hexes; a KILLER MECHANIC, made it as good, if not BETTER, and then said 'By the way; unlike Hexes, Survivors can rebless infinitely'.
So yeah; they took a Killer mechanic, made it better, and took away the ONE drawback of said Killer mechanic. Tell me that does not, on the surface, look like 'Devs are Survivor-sided'.
It honestly feels like Killers Perks/Powers are rubber-band-guns and get buffed to handguns over months, if not years. While Survivor Perks are orbital lasers and nerfed to bazooka levels over months, if not years. Look at Boon: Circle Of OPealing; no word on it being a broken pile of BS. Because they want Survivors t have fun before nerfing it.
But Killers? If enough people say '<new Killer on PTB> is OP', it's nerfed to dust. Look at: Literally every Killer to exist. Even Nemesis is mostly trash because 'the game could not handle that many zombies'. So why, if the zombies were a bottleneck, is his power still based on using them? Because Killer powers are always weak and 'eventually' get buffed. Maybe. Just ask Legion when.
Yeah, this is where you're wrong, which I somewhat expected based on your previous message.
If you list out the effects of Exponential on paper, yes, it looks very strong! However, the times where you can actually use it require so many things to fall into place that outside of very niche circumstances it's just not worth running. The killer has to slug you, in range of a boon totem, that someone's already put up, that doesn't get snuffed partway through... Those are all pretty big "ifs" to put on this perk, it's just not good. Period.
Then we get to Shadow Step, and even when listing out the effects on paper it's clear that it's a fair and balanced perk. Losing scratch marks makes chases harder, yes, but it's a fair difficulty increase that can absolutely be played around. Know how I know this? Two things; losing scratch marks is baked into some killer kits as the fair difficulty increase for a chase, and there are other survivor perks that remove scratch marks that most people regard as quite weak. On top of that, unlike CoH - the real problem - survivors have to be in its range during a chase, so you're far more likely to know where it is to snuff it after they're downed.
Where does that leave us? It leaves us with a fair and balanced perk (though the mechanic it rests on could use tweaks - I've never liked that boon auras go through floors, for example, and the killer should be able to hear it from further away) and kind of a useless perk, both of which would be destroyed by making totems one-time use for blessing.
We're going to glide past the weird "devs are survivor-sided" stuff since that's fully irrelevant, and conclude with this:
You don't take a sledgehammer to a potentially fun and fair mechanic just because it has minor problems and one problem perk. The solution is to put a few more limitations on boons, as I described above, and to redirect that sledgehammer to Circle of Healing, where it belongs.
So what? Same goes for hexes?? And thats why i said "destroy or debless" depends on what perks are you using. If you are using noed or something, you may want to keep them. So this is totally pointless.
Ask yourself to this. How many times did you choose pgtw instead of ruin because your hex will be spawned inside the survivors butt? I see no difference. Those perks are not... well at least not mean to be broken. Searching for that damn blessed totem and step on it is not a very useful counterplay where you just chase other person and the other survivor rebless it.
Hexes being weak isn't an excuse to give boons the same downsides, especially when they aren't designed in the same way and require different balancing.
There are definitely things to be fixed with boons, but taking a sledgehammer to them just because one of the three perks in that category is too strong is not a good idea.
the times where you can actually use it require so many things to fall into place that outside of very niche circumstances it's just not worth running
So...like every Hex totem. You know; those niche effects that barely last 30 seconds, barely do anything, and can not be re-hexed? Outside of the only 2 useful ones; NoED and Ruin. Which can also be removed amazingly fast.
You don't take a sledgehammer to a potentially fun and fair mechanic just because it has minor problems
Why not? That's what they do to anything Killer. 😁
Joking aside; I'm not fully into the whole 'Devs are Survivor mains' stuff, but when they do things like Hexes, and give Survivors a buff to wriggle speed for no reason within the change to wriggling; It sure LOOKS like they are playing 'favorite child'.
For the record: I agree with the wriggle mechanic change. I Just don't see why they added a Survivor-sided buff to wriggle speed inside it at the same freaking time.
Okay, so once again, we're going to glide past the weird "devs are survivor mains" stuff since it's fully irrelevant...
Yes. Hexes are weak. I said that. Though, Ruin and NOED aren't the only useful hexes, that's extremely reductive. That's not relevant to the actual argument taking place here, which is about how to balance boons.
Due to Hex: Penti; I really do think Killers should be able to destroy Boon totems. Let me explain:
So Killer's got a Hex perk that literally requires Survivors to work against their own self-interest (leaving gens, and Cleansing totems so they can no longer Boon them). The Killer CANNOT do anything, at all, to make Survivors give him Cleansed totems.
This is why, because this perk is yet another garbage Hex perk due to it's drawbacks, that Killers should be able to destroy Boon totems. It gives them totems then can now Penti.
And, though I've not done any tests, I'm fairly certain Survivors can override Penti with their own Boons, like every Hex. So a Killer rebuilding a totem as Penti is giving Survivors a new totem to Boon again. More risk vs reward.
Pentimento is the biggest reason killers shouldn't be able to destroy totems. That'd be a frankly insane amount of slowdown they'd get essentially for free, that perk would have to be nerfed into oblivion to be balanced with this change.
Which, adding on to everything else I've been saying so far, only seals the deal that killers breaking boon totems is a bad idea from pretty much every conceivable angle. There are not only better ideas, there are ideas that wouldn't make the game worse if they were implemented, so I'm really not sure why so many people are still on this ludicrous, awful suggestion.
Pentimento is the biggest reason killers shouldn't be able to destroy totems
Then tell me how Penti will work? Because Survivors have 0 reasons to Cleanse totems anymore. Ruin? Override it with a Boon. NoED? Wait for it to pop; override it with a Boon.
At least letting Killers destroy Boons means he can only apply Penti if he finds a Boon. It's not like he can place it at will. You seem to think the Killer will be able to Penti every totem at the start of a match. It clearly says 'Destroy a BOON TOTEM'.
Which Survivors will just override with their Boon again. Because Survivor Boons are more powerful than Hexes, for some reason.
I'm not here to talk about how to handle Pentimento, I'm here to talk about boon totems and why the killer being able to break them is a bad idea.
The solution, to repeat, is that boons should be reigned in on a few things like verticality and audio radius, potentially given a cooldown, and then the actual problem area of Circle of Healing should be properly nerfed.
I'm not here to talk about how to handle Pentimento, I'm here to talk about boon totems and why the killer being able to break them is a bad idea.
Except
Pentimento is the biggest reason killers shouldn't be able to destroy totems.
Un-huh....
So...Why is it a bad idea, outside of Hex: Penti? Why is the Killer being able to stop Boons permanently a bad idea? Other than 'Broken Boon perks will be less broken'?
Why is it a bad idea to let the Killer spend some time to ensure a Boon can be re-lit in 14 seconds? All 3 boons are powerful enough, game-changing enough, to warrent this.
I... you want me to repeat all my arguments again, is that it? Because you didn't really address them the first time around, but I guess I can condense them down a little bit...
1: Boon perks as a whole aren't broken. One of them is pretty well balanced, one of them is actively weak, and the last one is the one that's broken. Hard nerfing boon totems as a mechanic makes CoH less annoying but obliterates the other two as unfair collateral damage.
2: Boon totems are not designed in the same way as hexes. They're supposed to be relightable at the cost of being a timesink away from generators, and since that's a very good concept it should be propped up and not discarded.
2a: Hexes are weak and need work. The answer to this is to tweak hexes, not drag boons down to also be weak, underwhelming, and in hneed of work.
3: Pentimento is only relevant insofar as it would become OP if killers could break boon totems. I'm just not here to talk about the relative strength of that perk right now.
Pretty sure that's most of it, if you want the more eloquent versions you can go reread the messages I've already written.
Fair enough on all of it, but you're ignoring that Hex: Penti is literally irrelevant because it requires an action that Boons have all but rendered obsolete. It's, literally, useless as it is, because Survivors don't have 0 reasons to cleanse; they actually have reasons to NEVER cleanse: Boons.
So it requires an action that asks Survivors to work against their own self-interest. It's the dumbest thing ever added to the game, hands down.
I'm ignoring that because it's off topic. This isn't a thread about Pentimento- if we find each other on a thread like that, I'll be happy to talk about it. Right now, I'm focusing on the topic at hand, which is balancing boons and whether the killer should be able to break them.
Bruh, i literally just laugh when i see people cant just decide and see from an objective way of things.
And really saying "Letting Killers have an option to break totem is a bad idea" is just nonsense. If you use noed or something YOU HAVE TO keep the totem and just debless it. That's what was the totem mechanic in the first place before those bullshit boon perks. Cleanse everything you see. Survivors objective is not just gen rushing. They also USED TO need cleanse totems if they dont want to deal with noed or any other strong HEX.
And incase if you dont know, you can rekindle only ONE time if a totem is destroyed with Pentimento. After that, entity consumes the remains and i shouldnt be pushed to use pentimento like every damn killer i played. So, still boon totems have one more plus. And lets be honest, why would Survivors wants to cleanse instead of using their boon perk while the Pentimento exists? LOL. Its just the shittiest and useless HEX i've ever seen. If survivors figure it out you have Pentimento, they won't gonna cleanse totems anymore. So its useless against booners. Only will work against people who doesnt run boon things. So that's not a solid counterplay for boon dude.
On the other hand, 4 people can use boon totems, Killers are already have too many objectives to do at one given time. If you add another pressure like boon totems spawned in broken/strong loops while survivors can hide their scratch marks, auras and heal like in 5 seconds, i dont know why "destroying" is a worse way than this one... And yes you can debless it easily but you cant just camp on a broken spawned totem meanwhile chasing baby megs butts and also trying to pressure gens. You can already see those bad spawns are being abused by content creators.
Then you are ignoring WHY Killers should be able to break boons. You're arguing in a vacuum to ignore how the game actually works, to support your own view point.
Penti is exactly WHY Killers should be able to break Boons. If Penti did not exist, or did not have the frankly STUPID requirement of needing Cleansed totems; your argument would have more weight.
But Penti does exist, and is exactly why Killers need to be able to make a source of Cleansed totems, since Survivors no longer have that drive to Cleanse, thanks to Boons.
As I said, Pentimento would become OP if killers could break boon totems to spawn it in themselves. The number debuffs it provides are insanely high, and I imagine that's at least partially because it's going to be hard to actually get more than one stack off it.
My argument would have weight regardless, but Pentimento definitely helps.
Killers would be able to break totems only if they are "blessed". And solution of your point for pentimento is easy. Call Killers totem break action is "break" and make pentimento only works for "cleansed" totems, not for broken ones.
That would solve that issue for breaking boon totems, but not the rest of the issues that suggestion has.
As I said, Pentimento would become OP if killers could break boon totems to spawn it in themselves.
Except they would not be, because they would be spawning it over a Boon totem, meaning:
The whole chain still relies on Survivors bringing a boon in the first place. ANd then relies on Survivors not removing or Booning it away again.
You seem unable to understand, or admit, that the entire chain is Survivor-reliant, and just want to pretend Penti would become this unstoppable juggernaut while ignoring that's it's LITERALLY FREAKING USELESS RIGHT NOW because Survivors never have too, and actually DO NOT WANT TO EVER cleanse.
Penti relies on an action that will never happen; Cleansing. So why not make it rely on an action that CAN happen, but is still Survivor-based; Boons. By letting Killers break Boon totems.
Sorry but your 'Penti would be OP' argument holds 0 water. You're acting like Killers would spawn all 5 stacks unopposed & at will.
Alright, I guess we are going to have to talk about Pentimento despite it not being what this topic is about...
Right now, Pentimento is not useless. Survivors do still cleanse sometimes, though it's not reliable so you can't go in without any other tools- and there are tools! Here's how you make Pentimento useful: Plaything, Thrill of the Hunt, and your impact hex of choice, likely Ruin. If you're good at hooking survivors fairly quickly, they'll get a personal hex only they can cleanse, and if they have a boon, they'll either be spending nearly a full minute blessing it, or they'll be breaking it. Either way, your build gives you value.
Now if we want to talk about whether a perk that relies so heavily on one or two other perks to work is a well designed one, that's a different topic, but since so much of what you're saying hinges on me """"ignoring"""" the """fact""" that Pentimento is useless, I might as well delve into it and quickly remind you that it's not, it's just not as strong as its number values might imply.
Which is irrelevant, because again, Pentimento is only a minor point. I've gone over multiple other reasons why breaking boons is a bad idea but this is apparently the only one you want to focus on.
a minute is too ######### short, I say 3-5 minutes.
So you're just ignoring the most powerful part of Shadow Step in your analysis? It completely blocks aura reading! The sheer number of perks/addons that nullifies is insane, especially given that Shadow Step effectively gives all 4 survivors both Lucky Break and unlimited Distortion in the boon area, which has already been pointed out is stunningly large especially if you get a map like Midwich or RPD.
If you're going to list the effects on paper for the purposes of discussion, how about listing all of them?
Pretty aggressive tone there, bud.
You're right, though- the aura reading is actually the stronger part, and might be something worth looking at once general boon mechanics and CoH specifically are reigned in. Of course, it may be that after looking into it, the result is "nah, nothing needs doing", because it's not as though Shadow Step is an OP nightmare of a perk right now before any of that is done.
It's an annoyance on cramped indoor maps, but even then it's not OP, just annoying.
Agree, the problem is not the boon being overpowered, the real problem for me, is that boon totem have no cooldown system, the survivors can keeping blessing totems over and over without a break. I'm a main killer btw.
My tone isn't as aggressive as yours in the quoted post...
"Yeah, this is where you're wrong, which I somewhat expected based on your previous message."
The Boon system in general is fine as is, there's no particular reason that Boons and Hexes have to work in similar ways. The only thing you have to worry about is making sure individual specific Boon perks are balanced around the existing system. Currently Shadowstep and Exponential seem like they're probably ok given how Boons work, but Circle of Healing is problematic. So once they tone down Circle of Healing's effect that should address these complaints about "Boons" which are actually complaints about Circle of Healing.
I also noticed a lot of tangential talk about Hex: Pentimento. I don't know how good or bad Pentimento is overall, but either way if that specific perk is out of balance then it just needs to have its own effects tuned, there's no need to tinker with the overall Boon system in general which impacts a bunch of unrelated thing to try and make Hex: Pentimento better.
So yes, I'm assuming they should probably nerf Circle of Healing. They don't need to do anything with the other two Boons or makes any major changes to how Boons work in general.
I respond in kind. Come at me aggressive, I come at you aggressive.
I wouldn't consider that aggressive, though, for the record. Maybe condescending I'd give you, if you wanted to be a bit uncharitable, but surely it's to be expected when you're having a disagreement with someone that you'd think they're wrong? Later in the thread got far more heated than that.
I would suggest few things that could be done to the boons.