On Toxicity - Is There A Solution?

So, as I mentioned in another thread recently - the #1 thing getting me down about this game at the moment, more than the balance issues, more than my MMR gripes, more than frigging Dead Hard and CoH combined - it's just how absolutely meanspirited some players tend to be.

You'll play as fair as possible despite it being a rough matchup, or at times even let people farm, only to get teabagged from the exit gates or flicky flicky'd until your photosensitivity issues send you to bed with a splitting headache and laughed at in postgame. Or the final two just play hide and seek until you AFK because they let you get a 3gen.

It's one thing to lose. Everyone loses. But when you have to eat the gloating of the other team being gigantic prolapsed anuses at you on top of it - yeah, that gets under your skin. I don't care how 'tough' you are, or how much of a brave face you put up...it wears on you after a while.

It actually makes this game a bit of a tough sell to my wife and the folks I play other games with - because the 'how is the community?' question tends to come up and I'm not going to lie to them. It...sucks.

Suggestions

Back in the day, League of Legends had a similar reputation, and it was strangling growth. So Riot stuck a Tribunal system in and it was a massive success. Something like 80% of toxic players reformed after their first warning, and more than half of the remainder reformed after their first short ban.

Now as much as I'd like a LoL style Tribunal system to find these people a new game to play, that's probably too much overhead.

So...it got me thinking.

What if those Thumbs Up things in postgame actually did something?

Say, after a game, you could choose to vote an opponent from the other side up and give them BP. It doesn't have to be much - maybe 10,000 or so. This would encourage people to not be jerks, because they'd be losing out on BP.

Hell, if I was in charge I'd look at punishing survivors for BMing but...yeah. That's likely just because I'm annoyed. And have a headache from the strobing.

TL/DR:

Is there a way to persuade people to manner up in DbD, be it via punitive actions or a reward system?

Comments

  • @SunsetSherbet said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2672004#Comment_2672004

    By this logic why have laws since people are going to break them anyway?

    Law

    @SunsetSherbet said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2672004#Comment_2672004

    By this logic why have laws since people are going to break them anyway?

    Laws are upheld and people are punished. I've never said being a dick shouldn't be punished. Just that since it's not, you need to handle it yourself

  • @StarLost said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2672024#Comment_2672024

    Because I've worked in education and counselling for most of my life, and I can very much tell you that 'people saying mean things' can wear people down to the point of misery, both adults and kids - especially when it follows them home from the world into the things they do to relax. And I'm sick and tired of people making excuses for it, or trying to place the blame on the people getting hassled, not the jerks.

    And I'm sick of this culture war crap too. This isn't some politically correct rant about Far Cry 5 having the wrong sort of diversity or how the new survivor is problematic or whatever. It's genuinely frustrating how the response to 'hey, maybe PC culture has gone too far' turns into 'well, that means I have to act like a massive septic butt wherever I go to own the libs'.

    You also missed my point completely. I'm using a hypothetical to show you how your suggestion works once you apply it elsewhere.

    There is enough nastiness in the real world. When I come home to enjoy my hobby, I don't think expecting it to be free of the same nastiness is unreasonable.

    If that means we have to reward people for not acting like jerks? So be it. The result is what matters here.

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2672025#Comment_2672025

    This.

    Also - thanks. I always sense I tend to waffle, especially when threads dip into politics.

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2672032#Comment_2672032

    Honestly, it's the sportsmanship that bothers me. I sympathize when someone is a sore loser, but gloaters...get under my skin. Especially this sort of cowardly 'well, there are no consequences for me acting like this so here we go' stuff. And while people like to put on the fashionable 'it's just the internet stop being so sensitive' brave face, I think it gets under theirs too.

    And no, I'll never accept 'that's the way it is' when I can think of five easy steps to take to help make the situation better.

    You are never going to eliminate ingame toxicity. But you can damn well reduce it. And it's going to be something the devs have to tackle sooner or later, because once your game stops being niche, the nature of it's community becomes important. Newbies aren't going to stick around when they start running into bully squads who will stall the game out as long as possible and tell them to uninstall in postgame.

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2672020#Comment_2672020

    Because millennials seem to have split into two camps along political lines where one side is trying to be as PC as possible, one side is trying to be as outrageous as possible and everyone else gets caught in the crossfire.

    And (as an aside) millennials are lower in empathy, higher in apathy and have a more prolonged adolescent stage developmentally than previous generations. The psych on this stuff is actually...really interesting. Naturally, this doesn't fit all or even the majority of millennials, but not all stereotypes are inaccurate.

    No. As I've gotten older I've realized that you can't always stop people from being jerks, but you can damn well kick them out of the bar so everyone else can enjoy their drinks.

    It's not an issue of being too pc or not. It's a matter of learning to handle your problems by yourself and not expecting constant hand holding. If the devs won't punish people for their rude actions, you should do what you can to handle it yourself instead of just complaining. Complaints without action do not solve anything at all.

    Again, I agree that it shouldn't be a thing. As a player, you shouldn't have to ignore things being spewed at you from dickish players. But the fact is, as it stands, they aren't being punished, so take care of the situation yourself instead

  • @Laluzi said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2672024#Comment_2672024

    It's simple to belittle this whole thing by framing it like survivors crouching or clicking a flashlight is the actual problem. It's not. Language exists and actions have agreed-upon meanings. I'm not pissed that a player is clicking buttons, I'm pissed because the player is telling me "haha ######### you look at me" when I'm just trying to unwind. I don't care when a survivor is tbagging me when they first spawn in or if they're injured and run up to my gen; I care when they do while they're bodyblocking me into a corner, or wasting my time at the gates, because the message they're conveying is different, obvious, and mocking. And I don't like when a stranger walks up to me and starts mocking me without provocation. Call me 'triggered' if you like for having emotions or being capable of dislike. Some rando being rude doesn't have any sticking power and I'll forget it as soon as the next match starts, but it still ruins my mood while it's going on, and it's the leading cause of me wanting to put down this game. I don't care if I got absolutely destroyed in a match, but I do care when the survivors were sore winners. I don't care if I die, but I do care if I spent four minutes bleeding out while the killer nodded on top of me.

    People have suggested limiting flashlight clicking or crouching via mechanics, and while that's something, I doubt it would be effective. A new language of disrespect would form around those restrictions. People are always going to find ways to express themselves, whether that's positive or negative. And because shallow trash-talk is difficult to quantify or measure up against a set of enforceable rules, measures to discourage it have to focus on rewarding players for not doing it. It's not a participation medal (which has always struck me as a straw argument anyway), it's because banning someone for excessive tbagging and saying 'ggez' is fairly idiotic and that's the stick on the other side of this carrot. Rewarding people for a good deed? The good deed has already become the rarity in this environment and any increase in goodwill is still progress towards unravelling this snafu, externally motivated or not. It's not like that's an unusual thing. The whole of society is founded on a careful network of rewards and threats keeping everyone in line. And linking these potential rewards to a thumbs up from other players means it always remains subjective and can't be gamed. Really, the only restriction that needs to be put in place is that players who queue together can't rate each other. But I digress.

    I'm here to play a game for fun and my definition of fun doesn't involve people who are being dicks to me for no reason. The only way for these people to ever fit into my definition of fun is for me to bypass annoyance into active sadism (so to where I'm not only unbothered by them, but delighted in any salt I can extract while doing it), and at that point, I'm part of the problem. Honestly, you can say whatever you like about me being too soft and needing to toughen up, but in a game like this, you want more players like me to exist - players that aren't jaded or spiteful and have empathy for the other side whilst playing. When I queue up and either one or four random people are set against me? I'm nothing special, but I'm better for player retention than the guy who's playing Basement Bubba to sublimate his frustration from his last match, or the guy who routinely tunnels at five gens because he's beyond giving a ######### about the other players, or the SWF whose goal is to see just how much hell they can put the killer through in one match, or the solo who screams about every page of the survivor rulebook the killer broke and how everything they played, ran, or did was an undeserved crutch. The ideal match is one where players left having fun, not pissed off at the other players. And the current environment is kind of horrible at that because it encourages players to build grudges until they're 100% done with everyone.

    A lot of the players that behave in a provocative manner aren't inherently bad people. Some of them are, and griefing was always their objective. You can't avoid those; they exist in every community in the world, online or not. But others do it because they've gotten frustrated with other players and have reached the point where they expect hostility as a baseline (and so react to it preemptively or perceive it where it doesn't exist), and others have simply learned it from their environment and think it's the cool/funny thing to do. Those people are matching the tone of the community and can be peeled back just by making this environment less awful.

    In any case, nothing's going to change if nothing's ever tried.

    Nothing changes if nothing is tried.

    Ok. Sure.

    But the same can be said of doing the same thing over and over And expecting something to change. IE telling people that being rude isn't nice, coming to the forums to complain, and then going back to the game to do it all again.

    Like, I'm literally trying to tell you to do something different to change the situation. You said it yourself, no matter what people are going to express some form of harassment. So instead of just complaining about every little thing that bothers you, ignore it and move on with you life because you will never have a solid solution otherwise

  • @Fuzzels said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2672059#Comment_2672059

    It's not an issue of being too pc or not. It's a matter of learning to handle your problems by yourself and not expecting constant hand holding. If the devs won't punish people for their rude actions, you should do what you can to handle it yourself instead of just complaining. Complaints without action do not solve anything at all.

    Again, I agree that it shouldn't be a thing. As a player, you shouldn't have to ignore things being spewed at you from dickish players. But the fact is, as it stands, they aren't being punished, so take care of the situation yourself instead

    The second someone starts using the 'lol triggered' or 'get off the internet if you don't like toxicity' type tag-phrases, I immediately see culture-war crap and sigh.

    I've taken the actions I can.

    However, you can't just make yourself numb (I honestly think that's unhealthy) or immune to people being jerks, and - yeah. Take a look at my post earlier regarding my first match of the day. Survivors stall game out to be jerks, you can either just feed into it or AFK and get reported for not participating. How do you avoid that without just not playing?

    All I can do is try to get the developers to at least dialogue with the playerbase on this stuff and see if we can't find a way of decreasing it. Because I'm very much at the end of my rope and it won't take more than a few more incidents like this before I just quit in frustration.

    Sometimes the community you get is the community you deserve.

    @Fuzzels said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2672056#Comment_2672056

    Law

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2672056#Comment_2672056

    Laws are upheld and people are punished. I've never said being a dick shouldn't be punished. Just that since it's not, you need to handle it yourself

    Yeah, you kind of are. You are shifting the blame from the jerks to the people who are getting frustrated with the jerks. You can't have it both ways - either people just need to become numb and disconnected so that the jerks can do their thing, or steps need to be taken to encourage the jerks not to be jerks.

    @Fuzzels said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2672097#Comment_2672097

    Nothing changes if nothing is tried.

    Ok. Sure.

    But the same can be said of doing the same thing over and over And expecting something to change. IE telling people that being rude isn't nice, coming to the forums to complain, and then going back to the game to do it all again.

    Like, I'm literally trying to tell you to do something different to change the situation. You said it yourself, no matter what people are going to express some form of harassment. So instead of just complaining about every little thing that bothers you, ignore it and move on with you life because you will never have a solid solution otherwise

    Laluzi is correct on this. There are multiple ways to approach this problem.

    Apathy is the enemy of solutions.

    The thing is - nobody is telling people that being rude isn't nice. Again, in League of Legends, the vast majority of toxic players reformed the second they got a warning notification saying 'you've been reported a bunch recently, please keep an eye on your behavior'.

    Also - it's amusing how often you are resorting to strawmanning and ad-homs here. 'You'll never eliminate people being jerks online' doesn't mean 'you shouldn't try to reduce toxicity'.

    @lordfart said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2672111#Comment_2672111

    The same thing really CAN NOT be said for slurs and mental torture lmao. How can you even compare the two, you ever been on the receiving end of those? Abuse and harassment is such a far cry from repeatedly crouching or clicking a flashlight, it's not even funny. You wanna ban killers for hitting survivors on hook too?

    No. Don't strawman, I've been pretty clear on what I'm suggesting.

    @lordfart said:

    I like the idea of the rewards system. But the ultimate solution to this unfortunately is to just grow a thicker skin online. Sounds harsh I know, but it's just a game and you have power to not take it personally

    That's...not how people work (or should work). What you are describing is disconnection, which is another step on the road towards becoming numb and apathetic, or simply losing passion for whatever it is that you are doing.

    Thing is - I have a pretty thick skin. That doesn't stop it from just wearing away at you over time, when it feels like you played a match out fairly and in a manner designed to be fun for both sides, and then get BMed for it. Over and over and over again.

  • @SunsetSherbet said:

    Actually ban people for being toxic instead of acting like it's okay/acceptable would be a start. This game and dev team are the embodiment of that Simpsons scene. "We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas!"

    Just wanted to give props for the Simpsons quote, I lol'd. Thanks for the laugh!

  • @Fuzzels said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2672097#Comment_2672097

    Nothing changes if nothing is tried.

    Ok. Sure.

    But the same can be said of doing the same thing over and over And expecting something to change. IE telling people that being rude isn't nice, coming to the forums to complain, and then going back to the game to do it all again.

    Like, I'm literally trying to tell you to do something different to change the situation. You said it yourself, no matter what people are going to express some form of harassment. So instead of just complaining about every little thing that bothers you, ignore it and move on with you life because you will never have a solid solution otherwise

    ...I don't get it. Nothing changes if nothing is tried, ergo, this thread is petitioning for something to be tried and brainstorming what that may be while positing a few initial suggestions so that it's not just empty platitudes. There's a difference between whining about the state of the game and going "this sucks; maybe we could try A, B, or C to mitigate this."

    Like I do see your point, but in the same breath I don't think it applies here. Again, I've been in plenty of other PVP games that managed to have better communities than this, and a few that didn't, and my lifespan in the well-mannered ones lasted way longer than the unpleasant ones. Just because a problem can never entirely be excised doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be treated. To go back to your law analogy, you'll never get rid of criminals, but you can reduce criminal activity through a mix of accurately hunting down perpetrators when crimes are committed, harsh punishments for being caught, and mindful economic reform/welfare to address high-risk populations before they get desperate enough to commit crimes. Or you can just go 'lol anarchy, can't deal with human nature' and shrug whenever crimes happen. I'm not saying getting tbagged is akin to criminal activity, but I am saying that combining a lack of punishment, a lack of accountability, and an already bad environment breeds bad behavior like crazy.

  • @Laluzi said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2673151#Comment_2673151

    ...I don't get it. Nothing changes if nothing is tried, ergo, this thread is petitioning for something to be tried and brainstorming what that may be while positing a few initial suggestions so that it's not just empty platitudes. There's a difference between whining about the state of the game and going "this sucks; maybe we could try A, B, or C to mitigate this."

    Like I do see your point, but in the same breath I don't think it applies here. Again, I've been in plenty of other PVP games that managed to have better communities than this, and a few that didn't, and my lifespan in the well-mannered ones lasted way longer than the unpleasant ones. Just because a problem can never entirely be excised doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be treated. To go back to your law analogy, you'll never get rid of criminals, but you can reduce criminal activity through a mix of accurately hunting down perpetrators when crimes are committed, harsh punishments for being caught, and mindful economic reform/welfare to address high-risk populations before they get desperate enough to commit crimes. Or you can just go 'lol anarchy, can't deal with human nature' and shrug whenever crimes happen. I'm not saying getting tbagged is akin to criminal activity, but I am saying that combining a lack of punishment, a lack of accountability, and an already bad environment breeds bad behavior like crazy.

    Bingo.

    I mean, aside from LoL, my best example would be WoW versus Final Fantasy.

    WoW has a...pretty meh reputation right now, in part due to it's incredibly elitist, 'go go go' playerbase. It's not the only issue it has, but it's a big part of why people get frustrated. If you aren't part of a great guild, the game can be outright obnoxious.

    On the other hand, people are flocking to FF due to it's genuinely friendly, funny and close-knit community. I can attest to this too. It was so refreshing to go from tanking in WoW to tanking in FF, because people aren't constantly acting like bags of armpits because you took a different route through a Mythic dungeon than the one they are used to.

  • I wonder if somebody from devs read this discussion.

  • They should remove chat for PC players. But the t-bagging and stuff you can't be that sensitive playing this game just start to laugh at these people when they do it. You will change your mindset about it when you laugh at them being so childish

  • @DBD78 said:

    They should remove chat for PC players. But the t-bagging and stuff you can't be that sensitive playing this game just start to laugh at these people when they do it. You will change your mindset about it when you laugh at them being so childish

    Did you even read what the others wrote here? You to just take the blame from the jerks and put it at the bullied ones.

    This strangely reminds me of these parents that defend their son who bullied and punsht another kid or gets a bit to touchy with the girls with boys will be boys just grow tough

  • @Starrseed said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2674566#Comment_2674566

    Did you even read what the others wrote here? You to just take the blame from the jerks and put it at the bullied ones.

    This strangely reminds me of these parents that defend their son who bullied and punsht another kid or gets a bit to touchy with the girls with boys will be boys just grow tough

    This has nothing to do with bullying its just a game and people crouching up and down, or standing close to a hook hitting at a character who can't feel pain. Just laugh at it come on.

  • @DBD78 said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2674931#Comment_2674931

    This has nothing to do with bullying its just a game and people crouching up and down, or standing close to a hook hitting at a character who can't feel pain. Just laugh at it come on.

    But on some days I can't laugh about it cause maybe it's the tenth game in a row this happens and I mean we talk about he really nasty guys that do it all day cause they just happen to be better then you.

    I often read in the forum if I get hard tilted by those guys I have a problem with my self but it's not just about getting tilted and raging it's also about the player that enjoy the game but one day just have enough and go.

    Lösung in a game just happens and you need to live with that even if it frustrating when it's cause the game and the mmr aren't that well balanced but getting taunted on top of that constantly is just a thing that should not happen. No one is doing that cause they gain anything from it other then the hope to make someone's day a bit more miserable and that should just be prevented

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