Punish the unhooker for unsafe hooks instead of buffing unsafe hooks

NMCKE

I wish the developers took this route because with the previous hook changes, they just encouraged farming and as a community, we don't want that. I understand that when the hooked survivor gets farmed, the changes gives them a more of a chance to survive but why do this when the developers can make changes to PREVENT unsafe hooks from occurring in the first place? Now, we cannot control what people will do but we can discourage unsafe unhooks for the unhooker. Here's the elephant in the room, how can we punish unsafe hooks?

Here's what I will if I was a developer

Hook Changes:

-Exhaustion no longer resets upon getting hooked

Reasoning and justification: 

This was unnecessary since you recover exhaustion when not running. The moment that you enter dying state, you'll start to recover from exhaustion and by the time that you are hooked, on average, approximately 50% of your exhaustion meter would've been depleted. The other 50% of your exhaustion meter will be depleted while on the hook which only takes 20 seconds. Those 20 seconds can easily be used up by the killer: checking around the hook, breaking pallets near you, breaking generators near you, and once there's nothing for the killer to do, they will need to leave the hook.

-Invincible frames are no longer applied during the unhook animation for the hooked survivor.

Reasoning and justification: 

Again, this encouraged unsafe unhooks and as a community, we don't want this. Additionally, this is extremely buggy and sometimes doesn't function correctly or didn't work at all.

Compensation

-The “Safe unhook” scoring event now awards 2,000 BP.

-The “Unhook” scoring event now awards 0 BP.

-We're Gonna Live Forever will now award two tokens when the survivor gets the “Safe unhook” scoring event instead of awarding tokens when performing a unhook.

Reasoning and justification: 

This now gives the unhooker a incentive to perform safe unhooks.

I'm willing to discuss any complaints with the community. Remember, civilized feedback and criticism is appreciated, don't be afraid to say your opinion.

brokedownpalace

I'm not sure why you're conflating exhaustion reset with unhooking, but it's fine and does not need to be reverted. This is how balance works. 

Sometimes a risky unhook is necessary, for instance it's much better to try to get a survivor unhooked if they're about to go into phase 2 even if the killer is nearby. Sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't. Getting 0 BP is way too harsh. It's fine as it is now.

NMCKE

brokedownpalace said:

I'm not sure why you're conflating exhaustion reset with unhooking, but it's fine and does not need to be reverted. This is how balance works. 

Sometimes a risky unhook is necessary, for instance it's much better to try to get a survivor unhooked if they're about to go into phase 2 even if the killer is nearby. Sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't. Getting 0 BP is way too harsh. It's fine as it is now.

I will give my opinion on why I disagree with the exhaustion changes and will provide you my reasoning. Basically the exhaustion reset is delaying the inevitable from happening which is the hooked survivor being downed again and being hooked again. Since the exhaustion reset is delaying the inevitable, the unhooker won't be punished with the benevolence penalty and since there's no punishment... There's absolutely no reason why you shouldn't farm survivors. Does this help with the clarification?

For your second point, just take a hit for the survivor to prevent this. Tru3ta1ent does this a lot and it's flawless tactic since you're wasting the killer's time.

brokedownpalace

I'm not sure how it's delaying the inevitable. Often times the unhooked survivor gets away. Like when the unhooker takes a hit, like you said in your second example. Or the killer loses track of the unhooked survivor, or the unhooked survivor can make it to a good pallet or window and get some distance. The whole point of playing survivor is to delay the killer from downing and hooking you so there's more time to do gens.

And as for your second point, you cannot always take the hit.

NMCKE

brokedownpalace said:

I'm not sure how it's delaying the inevitable. Often times the unhooked survivor gets away. Like when the unhooker takes a hit, like you said in your second example. Or the killer loses track of the unhooked survivor, or the unhooked survivor can make it to a good pallet or window and get some distance. The whole point of playing survivor is to delay the killer from downing and hooking you so there's more time to do gens.

It depends on the killer's skill and determination because most smart killers will usually tunnel the easier target. If I farm a survivor and they SB away (Exhaustion Reset), eventually the killer will catch up to the survivor and the survivor will start back at square one which is no fun for the unhooked survivor. I understand your valid point of delaying is all apart of playing survivor but the bigger question is at what cost? You are ruining someone else's experience just so the other three survivors can do generators and escape. Like you said before, sometimes you may need to perform a risky unhook but if you find yourself in that situation a lot, then there's a perk for that situation to give the survivor more of a fighting chance to hide and break the chase.

"And as for your second point, you cannot always take the hit."

You're exactly right, great valid point! However you wouldn't be in that situation if you never did the unsafe unhook in the first place.

Overall, I understand both sides of the argument but I really feel like we need to prevent this from happening in the first place rather than accepting it and making it more acceptable. Great points @brokedownpalace and thank you for being so civilized.

brokedownpalace

Nickenzie said:

Great points @brokedownpalace and thank you for being so civilized.

Likewise. I would debate more but I've got a headache lol. Good night.

NMCKE

brokedownpalace said:

Nickenzie said:

Great points @brokedownpalace and thank you for being so civilized.

Likewise. I would debate more but I've got a headache lol. Good night.

❤

Tsulan

I'm ok with those changes. 
Maybe 2 stacks is a little to much. But the rest sounds solid. 

NMCKE

Tsulan said:

I'm ok with those changes. 
Maybe 2 stacks is a little to much. But the rest sounds solid. 

The only reason why I increased it to 2 stacks is because survivors will do anything for BP so why not use that to encourage safe unhooks?

Tsulan

Nickenzie said:

Tsulan said:

I'm ok with those changes. 
Maybe 2 stacks is a little to much. But the rest sounds solid. 

The only reason why I increased it to 2 stacks is because survivors will do anything for BP so why not use that to encourage safe unhooks?

Just don't award a stack after an unsafe unhook. Problem solved. 

NMCKE

Tsulan said:

Nickenzie said:

Tsulan said:

I'm ok with those changes. 
Maybe 2 stacks is a little to much. But the rest sounds solid. 

The only reason why I increased it to 2 stacks is because survivors will do anything for BP so why not use that to encourage safe unhooks?

Just don't award a stack after an unsafe unhook. Problem solved. 

Nickenzie said:

-We're Gonna Live Forever will now award two tokens when the survivor gets the “Safe unhook” scoring event instead of awarding tokens when performing a unhook.

Is this what you was talking about?

artist

I don't care about anything you said other than

-We're Gonna Live Forever will now award two tokens when the survivor gets the “Safe unhook” scoring event instead of awarding tokens when performing a unhook.

George_Soros

@Nickenzie and let's not forget about the dumbest achievement out there: Taking One For The Team encourages dumb saves, and you need to score an insane number of them to get it. I don't even get why unhooking, safe or otherwise rewards survivors with BP or emblem points. It shouldn't. Escaping should, and in order to escape you should be under pressure to save teammates so you don't have to repair generators alone.
I think the devs try too hard to incentivise a certain gamestyle that they consider "fun".

Master

@brokedownpalace said:
I'm not sure why you're conflating exhaustion reset with unhooking, but it's fine and does not need to be reverted. This is how balance works. 

Sometimes a risky unhook is necessary, for instance it's much better to try to get a survivor unhooked if they're about to go into phase 2 even if the killer is nearby. Sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't. Getting 0 BP is way too harsh. It's fine as it is now.

Your opinion is how balance works? How do you mean that?

If you go for a risky unhook, then YOU should feel the risk, and not the victim on the hook that is farmed by you

Tsulan

Nickenzie said:

Tsulan said:

Nickenzie said:

Tsulan said:

I'm ok with those changes. 
Maybe 2 stacks is a little to much. But the rest sounds solid. 

The only reason why I increased it to 2 stacks is because survivors will do anything for BP so why not use that to encourage safe unhooks?

Just don't award a stack after an unsafe unhook. Problem solved. 

Nickenzie said:

-We're Gonna Live Forever will now award two tokens when the survivor gets the “Safe unhook” scoring event instead of awarding tokens when performing a unhook.

Is this what you was talking about?

Yes

Jack11803

@Master said:

@brokedownpalace said:
I'm not sure why you're conflating exhaustion reset with unhooking, but it's fine and does not need to be reverted. This is how balance works. 

Sometimes a risky unhook is necessary, for instance it's much better to try to get a survivor unhooked if they're about to go into phase 2 even if the killer is nearby. Sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't. Getting 0 BP is way too harsh. It's fine as it is now.

Your opinion is how balance works? How do you mean that?

If you go for a risky unhook, then YOU should feel the risk, and not the victim on the hook that is farmed by you

I agree, but why remove I-frames and exhaustion reset? That doesn’t encourage farming, it’s the one saving grace to live a farmer.

iceman2kx

I don't have a problem with exhaustion resetting on hook. It's fine honestly.

Second, there is a problem with camping that needs to be addressed. Playing as a killer, there's a stigma against killing a freshly unhooked survivor, even if it was done right in front of the killer's face. It's ridiculous that a killer feels pressured to automatically go after the "rescuer" even though he could insta-down the freshly unhooked survivor. I see popular killer streamers do it all the time. This is the most ridiculous arbitrary rule killer main's follow just to avoid being called a camper or "lol tunneler" even though they weren't trying to camp/tunnel in the first place.

With that being said, I absolutely agree survivor's unhooking a survivor directly in front of the killer/terror radius should be punished somehow. There's a time when it's necessary, for instance if a killer is face camping, but farming your teammate makes you a bad survivor and player. You unhook a survivor before the killer even has the opportunity to get in another chase, the killer doubles back and kills that survivor. You just got your teammate killed again. You're a bad player and should be punished for it. This isn't the killers fault, it's your fault.

Let's be realistic here, what actually happens? The bad survivors QQ in end game chat on how bad the killer is because he is camper/tunneler. Frankly, the community needs to figure it out and learn what face camping and tunneling actually is.

Jack11803

@iceman2kx said:
I don't have a problem with exhaustion resetting on hook. It's fine honestly.

Second, there is a problem with camping that needs to be addressed. Playing as a killer, there's a stigma against killing a freshly unhooked survivor, even if it was done right in front of the killer's face. It's ridiculous that a killer feels pressured to automatically go after the "rescuer" even though he could insta-down the freshly unhooked survivor. I see popular killer streamers do it all the time. This is the most ridiculous arbitrary rule killer main's follow just to avoid being called a camper or "lol tunneler" even though they weren't trying to camp/tunnel in the first place.

With that being said, I absolutely agree survivor's unhooking a survivor directly in front of the killer/terror radius should be punished somehow. There's a time when it's necessary, for instance if a killer is face camping, but farming your teammate makes you a bad survivor and player. You unhook a survivor before the killer even has the opportunity to get in another chase, the killer doubles back and kills that survivor. You just got your teammate killed again. You're a bad player and should be punished for it. This isn't the killers fault, it's your fault.

Let's be realistic here, what actually happens? The bad survivors QQ in end game chat on how bad the killer is because he is camper/tunneler. Frankly, the community needs to figure it out and learn what face camping and tunneling actually is.

Yeah, that’s the thing. I want camping to not be possible, but it’s not the killers fault. It shouldn’t be punished. It’s a stupid mechanic that forces another player to not play for 2 minutes. It shouldn’t exist. This game has so many fundamental issues at its core.

Sinner

OP is just a noob camper that wants more camping buffs.

OGlilSPOOK20

Survivors do get punished... They lose Benevolent points if the survivor they just unhooked goes down under 10 secs. So stop crying... 

BigBubs

Lol , I thought it was a thread by a survivor complaining about being farmed but I see it's a crybaby killer who wants his easy camp and be able to down people right off the hook to easy eliminate them and completely ignore the unhooker and go around them to hit the unhooked, which kinda totally the opposite of fixing the farming xD
Pretty sure the devs won't listen to this crybaby idea.

Master

@Jack11803 said:

@Master said:

@brokedownpalace said:
I'm not sure why you're conflating exhaustion reset with unhooking, but it's fine and does not need to be reverted. This is how balance works. 

Sometimes a risky unhook is necessary, for instance it's much better to try to get a survivor unhooked if they're about to go into phase 2 even if the killer is nearby. Sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't. Getting 0 BP is way too harsh. It's fine as it is now.

Your opinion is how balance works? How do you mean that?

If you go for a risky unhook, then YOU should feel the risk, and not the victim on the hook that is farmed by you

I agree, but why remove I-frames and exhaustion reset? That doesn’t encourage farming, it’s the one saving grace to live a farmer.

It doesnt encourage farming. It punishes the killer for a survivor misplay.
The farmer should be punished because he is the one doing the misplay

Master

@OGlilSPOOK20 said:
Survivors do get punished... They lose Benevolent points if the survivor they just unhooked goes down under 10 secs. So stop crying... 

Nobody cares about rank

NMCKE

BigBubs said:

Lol , I thought it was a thread by a survivor complaining about being farmed but I see it's a crybaby killer who wants his easy camp and be able to down people right off the hook to easy eliminate them and completely ignore the unhooker and go around them to hit the unhooked, which kinda totally the opposite of fixing the farming xD
Pretty sure the devs won't listen to this crybaby idea.

Sinner said:

OP is just a noob camper that wants more camping buffs.

@Sinner @BigBubs
Yes, I can definitely tell that you two are the bigger baby in this thread, do me a favor and grow up. Perhaps giving me reasoning on WHY you disagree with me can help me make both sides happy but that's just too much to ask for isn't it?

brokedownpalace

Master said:

@brokedownpalace said:
I'm not sure why you're conflating exhaustion reset with unhooking, but it's fine and does not need to be reverted. This is how balance works. 

Sometimes a risky unhook is necessary, for instance it's much better to try to get a survivor unhooked if they're about to go into phase 2 even if the killer is nearby. Sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't. Getting 0 BP is way too harsh. It's fine as it is now.

Your opinion is how balance works? How do you mean that?

If you go for a risky unhook, then YOU should feel the risk, and not the victim on the hook that is farmed by you

I do take a risk. Often I will let the killer hit me then while he's in the weapon cleaning animation I will unhook. The killer could do two things, line up behind me to hit me, or move around and hit the unhooked survivor. Either way, I'm talking about when a survivor is about to enter phase 2 or die. There is NO reason not to take that risk. At the very least, if the killer hits the unhooked survivor, you force him to pick up that survivor and hook him again, wasting time.

OR the killer could get greedy, down the unhooked survivor and chase after you thinking he'll get 2 for one. Then your other teammates come in and heal the survivor on the ground.

NMCKE

brokedownpalace said:

Master said:

@brokedownpalace said:
I'm not sure why you're conflating exhaustion reset with unhooking, but it's fine and does not need to be reverted. This is how balance works. 

Sometimes a risky unhook is necessary, for instance it's much better to try to get a survivor unhooked if they're about to go into phase 2 even if the killer is nearby. Sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't. Getting 0 BP is way too harsh. It's fine as it is now.

Your opinion is how balance works? How do you mean that?

If you go for a risky unhook, then YOU should feel the risk, and not the victim on the hook that is farmed by you

I do take a risk. Often I will let the killer hit me then while he's in the weapon cleaning animation I will unhook. The killer could do two things, line up behind me to hit me, or move around and hit the unhooked survivor. Either way, I'm talking about when a survivor is about to enter phase 2 or die. There is NO reason not to take that risk. At the very least, if the killer hits the unhooked survivor, you force him to pick up that survivor and hook him again, wasting time.

OR the killer could get greedy, down the unhooked survivor and chase after you thinking he'll get 2 for one. Then your other teammates come in and heal the survivor on the ground.

@brokedownpalace Honesty, I think that the 10 second benevolence timer should be reworked since if you take that risk and you ended saving that survivor even through the hooked survivor was downed, you shouldn't get punished. You should lose benevolence when the hooked survivor gets thrown back on the hook within 10 seconds. The 10 second timer will pause when the hooked survivor is in dying state or on the killer's shoulder. That way, you can do more risky actions rather than suffer benevolence to save someone. However, I'm talking about unhooking someone with the wrong intentions though, like to do it just ruin someone's day or you're new to the game.

OGlilSPOOK20

Master said:

@OGlilSPOOK20 said:
Survivors do get punished... They lose Benevolent points if the survivor they just unhooked goes down under 10 secs. So stop crying... 

Nobody cares about rank

Yea nobody cares about rank, because this game shouldn't even have rank. There isn't even a reward for making it to rank 1. So I agree... Nobody cares which is why it should just be a casual mode.

SnakeSound222

I'd be down for this.

I would add that the i-frames are also removed from kobes to force players to use them wisely instead of just trying to unhook themselves in the Killer's face. If the Survivor does kobe near the Killer, then they deserve to go right back on the hook.

AgentTalon

Just wanted to comment that nothing is more satisfying than hitting the unhooked survivors with a hatchet and then chasing down the survivor who made the unsafe unhook. Makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside.

As for actual contribution to this discussion, I got nothing :-)