This should be a red flag to developers (Freddy OP!!!)
The fact that Freddy has a relatively low pick rate but a SIGNIFICANTLY higher kill rate should be a major red flag to BHVR that he is too strong.
IDC what you want to say about Nurse or Spirit, but Freddy is objectively one of if not the strongest killers in the game and there are multiple reasons for it.
I must preface this with...
- I was an old Freddy main at rank 1. I played him without Ruin or NOED and was still quite effective with him. However I would acknowledge that he was, at the time, the weakest killer in the game.
- I play new Freddy regularly at rank 1 and I find him to be hands down the most oppressive killer to play. Consistently. Like I win games regularly with 3 or more gens left, AND I rarely have to camp or tunnel.
So why is Freddy so strong?
First is his teleport. He has the best map pressure in the game because he can instantly go to the gen you are working on. No other killer can do this, save for Demo and Hag but they have to set up first which greatly reduces their pressure. Every single gen slowing or gen tracking perk is borderline God tier on Freddy. BBQ, DIscordance, Surveillance, Tinkerer, Thana, Ruin, Pop (especially Pop). Yes these are good perks for many killers, but on Freddy they become exponentially more powerful.
Second is his snares. He has an anti-chase that is very similar to Clown. Say what you want about Clown, but a good Clown will catch you CRAZY fast. Freddy is just a slightly weaker Clown in this aspect, as he can't plant a puddle in front of you during a chase. It is damn near impossible to run a good Freddy for very long around most loops just as it can be a good Clown. This is a minor issue however.
Third is Dream World, or rather the fact it automatically gets Oblivious. This means that he gets a free BT counter, or any perk requiring a terror radius. Sure this hurts him too, but the perks he can't use aren't that great anyway (Unnerving, Insidious??? LOL). Infectious is probably the only TR perk that is good, but guess what? IT STILL WORKS FOR HIM! Yep try it, Infectious will make dreaming survivors scream. Oblivious doesn't stop that for some reason but it negates a lot of good survivor perks.
Fourth is stealth. He has built in semi-stealth due to him being INVISIBLE to awake survivors outside his TR and even sometimes in his TR. This means he can get really close to you while awake without you having a reasonable way to react. He is basically a Wraith.
Finally, he is the ONLY killer in the game with add-ons that affect gen speeds. This is the big one. He has 3 add-ons that do this, and while they were nerfed that is not good enough. They shouldn't exist, period. Don't get me wrong, at first I loved them because my main tactic with old Freddy was to use range add-ons and tracking perks like Surveillance and Nurse's to permanently keep survivors asleep for that sweet 50% action penalty. It was a strong tactic, however since I had to put them to sleep myself it was fair since I had to be active to get that reward. But now you just fall asleep in 60 seconds OR when he hits you. You are going to be asleep more than 50% of the game easily, and usually without any action on the killer's part. Basically he just gets this stuff for free by equipping an add-on.
Let's summarize... Freddy is basically a combination of Hag, Wraith, and Clown with built in BT counter and passive slow down that no other killer has access too.
My entire point here is that Freddy just has WAY WAY too much in his base kit, and that is why he has such a significantly higher kill rate compared to other killers. You can say "don't draw conclusions from data alone" remember that I told you I play new Freddy at rank 1 and my experience is that he is oppressive. Furthermore, as survivor, a good Freddy with a strong slow down build is one of the most difficult killers to beat. Literally your only chance against a killer like this is to run in a 4 man SWF, which anyone who plays this game could tell you is already broken, but I digress.
So what is the solution? How do we fix this? I'm not just making this post to complain, I'm making it to offer a suggestion. Now I have been writing down my ideas for changes to Dead By Daylight I would like to see that I believe would improve the game. It's a lot, I will just copy and paste what I wrote for Freddy. Let's take a look...
NIGHTMARE
- Survivors no longer passively fall asleep at the start of the game and do not see the sleep clock until they are hit and put into the Dream State at least once.
- Dream Snare radius reduced by 20%.
- Oblivious removed from Dream World.
- Nightmare can be always seen by awake survivors within 32m.
- Remove stacking penalty on Snap Clap wake up action.
- Cat Block, Z Block, Pill Bottle, Paint Thinner, Outdoor Rope, Jump Rope, and Swing Chains reworked.
- Cat Block inflicts Haemorrhage on sleeping survivors. Healthy survivors that are asleep will bleed.
- Z Block inflicts Mangled on injured survivors that are asleep and blocks the aura of their dream clock outside of 32m.
- Pill Bottle makes the Nightmare; disappear intermittently to awake survivors; invisible to sleeping survivors outside of 32m.
- Paint Thinner reveals the survivor's aura for 4 seconds upon falling asleep.
- Outdoor Rope greatly increases interaction time for each successive Snap Clap.
- Jump Rope causes the survivor's dream clock to move to a new location every 30 seconds.
- Swing Chains causes Dream World to inflict the Oblivious status effect.
- Garden Rake and Prototype Claws Dream Tokens reduced to 8.
- Prototype Claws aura reading removed. Prototype Claws inflict Hindered for 10 seconds on survivors that interact with Dream Pallets.
- Kid's Drawing adds 5 Dream Tokens.
So let's unpack this.
The first line is actually a slight nerf and buff to Freddy, as one of his only drawbacks is that you KNOW it's a Freddy right when the game starts. This would give some leeway at the start of the game for survivors, and also give Freddy more element of surprise opportunities. Though of course once he hits someone they would see, but the point is he would have a bit more spook at the start. Once you hit them the clock appears and it functions as normal.
Making Dream Snares smaller means it would take better planning in their use. I feel like I can just spam them without care and they do more than what I need them to do. At least require me to use to skill here.
Next. we basically take away all the "fluff" from Freddy's base kit. The goal is to shift most of them to his add-ons. Pill Bottle is a bad add-on IMO, it does nothing for him. This new version would do something for him. Notice how for most of these things while I offer to take away something from his base kit and move it to an add-on, I'm actually buffing it in the process because it now requires an add-on and therefore can be a tad better.
This all opens up new builds for Freddy. I enjoy add-ons that change how a killer functions over straight up making something they do faster or stronger. It leads to more interesting emergent gameplay.
The dream pallet add-ons I feel are redundant. You don't need 3 of them, hell 1 is enough. So let's take Paint Thinner and do something else with it, what I suggest is reminiscent of old Freddy and I would enjoy this as both killer and survivor. I only kept 2 dream pallet add-ons because I honestly couldn't think of another thing for Claws to do.
All the slow down add-ons are gone and in it's place are add-ons that are still really good but not stupid to play against. Giving Oblivious in Dream World as an add-on is acceptable. Base kit it is not.
Finally we make his lame BP add-on a bit better. This is just to offset the fact his snares just got worse.
These are just my suggestions, obviously they won't be implemented but something like this would be a good change for Freddy. If you guys have suggestions you are free to put them here.
Be aware I'm not looking to argue with anyone about whether Freddy is too strong or not. He very much is and the chart above confirms it. We need to discuss ways to fix this.
Comments
Your previous feelings/posts regarding Freddy are irrelevant to my comments regarding Pig's extremely disproportionate pick/kill rate, multi-faceted kit, slowdown add-ons, and anecdotal experiences - I'm not seeing the relevance of whether I made the claim before - Opinions can be formed at any time - I'm making it now.
You're free to discuss or dismantle my claims regarding Pig at any time - They're in this thread.
Can we finally please buff/rework Plague into a viable state? She's been the least played killer in the game since she came out and consistently underperforms due to how unreliable her power is. She lacks any map pressure and can't even prevent genrushing.
Her bp-income is abyssmal and her emblem-scoring equally bad. And her killrate always has been among the worst in DbD across all ranks, there's a reason why she's considered one of the weakest killers in the game. Also no new cosmetics since 8 months, instead they give us lazily recolored skins on the Rift locked behind their season pass system.
I really love Plague's aesthetic and theme but from a gameplay and commercial viewpoint she's a complete failure.
Your irrelevant diatribe aside, suicides on hook count in match statistics - DCs on either side nullify them.
The point in question was whether suicide on hooks ate prevalent against these 'unfun' killers in matchmaking.
It's not a killer vs survivor issue, regardless of whatever you're trying to frame.
You're making it now... purely because of the chart. That is the key difference.
Also, just to pick apart your Pig argument...
1) She does not actually have slowdown. Survivors can do interactions at the same rate they just have an additional objective (maybe) to do. Freddy has a DIRECT effect on how fast you can do things, an ability no other killer has in their kit.
2) "Multi-faceted kit" is the wrong phrase. Pig has 3 things she can do, put a RBT on a survivor, crouch and being undetectable, and do an ambush from crouch. You could could 2 of those as the same thing. Freddy does a lot more than Pig. Teleport, snares, pallets, stealth, oblivious, tracking (via snares).
3) Freddy's add-ons are tiers above Pig's. Pigs strongest add-ons are gears, extra boxes, and timer, all of which are still RNG dependent and could be negated with just dumb luck. Rope/chains and paint brush are insanely more effective than her add-ons.
4) As I said you came to this conclusion purely by looking at the chart. Which is what the devs said not to do. What I did was not that. I had the conclusion for a while, I am just using the chart to support what I am saying.
You know full well that you are just strawmaning to derail the thread, and THAT is very intellectually dishonest thing to do.
I guess you won't be addressing anything I've said, then.
Here I edited the post but w/e
_________________
Also, just to pick apart your Pig argument...
1) She does not actually have slowdown. Survivors can do interactions at the same rate they just have an additional objective (maybe) to do. Freddy has a DIRECT effect on how fast you can do things, an ability no other killer has in their kit.
2) "Multi-faceted kit" is the wrong phrase. Pig has 3 things she can do, put a RBT on a survivor, crouch and being undetectable, and do an ambush from crouch. You could could 2 of those as the same thing. Freddy does a lot more than Pig. Teleport, snares, pallets, stealth, oblivious, tracking (via snares). He also has way better synergy with every top tier perk in the game, INCLUDING Pigs own Surveillance, and even to an extent Make Your Choice since he could, in theory, teleport back to a hook right after a save.
3) Freddy's add-ons are tiers above Pig's. Pigs strongest add-ons are gears, extra boxes, and timer, all of which are still RNG dependent and could be negated with just dumb luck. Rope/chains and paint brush are insanely more effective than her add-ons.
4) As I said you came to this conclusion purely by looking at the chart. Which is what the devs said not to do. What I did was not that. I had the conclusion for a while, I am just using the chart to support what I am saying.
Now that I've dismantled your entire position I'm not going to discuss Pig because the thread is about Freddy. You know full well that you are just strawmaning to derail the thread, and THAT is very intellectually dishonest thing to do.
The problem I see with your conclusions are, they're all anecdotal based. You're using strictly your own experience without discussing with other people who play Freddy. The experience that 1 player has isn't representative of all experiences.
I'm a bad bad player but I main Freddy. I get roughly half win half loss. The wins can be hard but the losses? When a team wants you to lose, you'll lose. This isn't a direct comment on balance, more I'm using the same anecdotal evidence you are. As far as I'm concerned, Freddy could use a buff because I'm not winning as many games as I'd like. 🤣😂
More importantly than your experience is the CONSISTENCY of your experience.
When I play Freddy at rank 1, the only teams that can CONSISTENTLY challenge me are 4 man SWF. Other groups might challenge me at times but it's not consistent. The only times I lose as Freddy, consistently, are when I make big mistakes or, sadly, because the game is failing (Xbox frame rates get worse and worse as you play, you need to reset the game every once in a while). Additionaly, as survivor Freddy is the most consistently difficult killer to play against. That means regardless of the player, other survivors, the map, the perks, or just good ole RNG, Freddy gives the most challenge CONSISTENTLY.
On top of this it's not just my opinion. A lot of my friend share this opinion with me that Freddy is too strong. Some are killer mains with thousands of hours.
So when I talk about my experience I'm talking about my experience, other's experience that I know or play with regularly, and the CONSISTENCY of all that experience over the last year or so, whenever it was they reworked Freddy.
I guess my counters will never be read if you're not willing to discuss :(
Not going to lie - Hatch giving is something that I did not even consider.
Thanks for the insight.
Ok but opinions are still opinions, yes?
Can you tell me how many people usually survive with a Freddy on average? Can you tell me how many games there are where some survivors escape and some don't? Can you tell me the various builds on the freddy's who've won and lost? Can you even tell me how much Freddy actually uses his power? This would determine if his power was too strong. Also, can you give me information on how many times survivors actually run over traps or get caught with fake pallets?
Your conclusions are all anecdotal evidence with 1 specific chart that BHVR said literally do not do what you're doing.
Sorry man, but your and your friends anecdotal "evidence" doesn't actually stand up to scrutiny. Especially if the hard evidence you have is 1 chart and the rest is "I feel like" or "I think". These are not facts, they're your observations. That's it.
You have no argument because you have no basis for comparison. You have no idea what is and isn't right with his kit. You don't even know how often his powers are used.
Copy paste them I'll reply. I don't have the time to read through 9 pages sorry.
I think I'm just going to make a new topic and get some community opinions/insight.
Hope to see you there :)
Fourth comment on page 2.
Yes. I did. It's still all anecdotal evidence. Anecdotal evidence means jack if you're trying to use facts for your arguments.
The fact of the matter is, you are using your own experiences to say something is right or wrong. He does not have any data to back up his arguments. Just vague statements of "this is my experience". Cool story bro, but what about those that don't have that experience?
"Can you tell me how many people usually survive with a Freddy on average? "
34%. I got that from the chart because that's what the chart literally is.
"Can you tell me how many games there are where some survivors escape and some don't?"
Why does this matter? He has very close to an average of a 3k, meaning 1 person is getting hatch enough to lower it and then Freddy is losing a 3k just enough to keep him below it. He is still ABOVE every other killer, including objectively strong killers like Spirit, Nurse, and Oni. And just as devs made a point about why Nurse's kill rate is so LOW, I could make the same points about Freddy's is so HIGH.
"Can you tell me the various builds on the freddy's who've won and lost?"
Honestly irrelevant. We aren't looking at builds we are looking at just Freddy. If I was saying "this particular build on Freddy is OP" this would be relevant to discuss.
"Can you even tell me how much Freddy actually uses his power?"
Again irrelevant. Freddy not using his power is basically an m1 killer, but even then he has passive effects that other killers do not get.
"Sorry man, but your and your friends anecdotal "evidence" doesn't actually stand up to scrutiny. Especially if the hard evidence you have is 1 chart and the rest is "I feel like" or "I think". These are not facts, they're your observations. That's it."
My observations of my own experience, other's experience, the consistency of all that experience, AND 2 sets of data to validate that experience. They are facts at this point.
Ok let me rephrase this. Please, what kind of hard evidence do you have? Other than your gut feelings (which can easily be wrong or ignore other sets of data that are relevent)?
Do you have ANY evidence other than "my friends and I see him win a lot with strong perks so he's bad". This isn't evidence. Irs your gut feeling. I don't care if you've played literally 24 hours a day 7 days a week since it released. You're still using 1 *small* set of data. Your own. That's it.
If you want to win arguments and debates, bring facts. Anecdotal evidence gets you nowhere and I see a lot of anecdotal evidence on both sides here.
You do know that Killers are supposed to be "OP" and freddy still has counters. I've escaped multiple and multiple have escaped me.
So it ain't that hard.
Forgive me I didn't read the whole thing but from what I seen your right Freddy is crazy good and I can say both tinkerer and discordance are disgusting on Freddy I don't play this game to be over competitive but there is no lying how strong that is hell at one point I believe I use to use on Freddy BBQ discordance tinkerer and bloodwarden I believe it called to be fair I'm no pro at the game I'm only purple rank but my experience with this have been op as hell but like I said I don't play overly competitive I just used perks that sounded good for my playstyle
Plus how could Freddy hit a survivor if they weren't in the dream world? You are pretty much making Freddy 100% useless based on the "he must hit them first" yet it is known he can only attack when you are asleep.
Let me ask you this, what "hard evidence" would satisfy you? Because I don't have access to all of BHVR's data. Therefore all I can give you is my experience and what data they have given, but even then I make completely valid arguments about Freddy.
Everyone wants to contest how I came to my conclusion instead of my conclusions themselves. Explain to me how anything I said about him is wrong. That he doesn't have the best gen pressure in the game, or free passives no other killer gets, or semi-stealth, or anit-chase mechanics.
The counter to this is have people split up and be doing multiple gens at once. Freddy can only be in one place at once, so to counter that, spread out. 1 person looping well can run a Freddy in circles even with his traps. Don't be afraid of his teleporting because most of the time it's a mindgame. Also don't run towards a gen if you can help it because he can just teleport to it and hit you as you're running by.
???
Not really sure if you are making a joke or misunderstood something I was saying in the OP.
As you just said, you don't have access to bhvrs data. That is exactly where I'd look. Especially since the devs have told you to not only look at that chart. Unless I missed it, you don't even know what criteria the "win rate" is in that graphic. (This one I might have missed and it'd answer how many people escaped vs died.) The point of that question is, what constitutes a "win"? All 4 killed or just 2 killed? If it's only 2 that means 2 people still escaped and won. That would be pretty balanced, yes?
Free passives? I'm far more scared of killers that can expose you than I am of Freddy. I can run circles around Freddy lol but see, I don't use my anecdotal evidence to counter yours. See how that works?
As far as I can tell, I can still hit survivors which then puts them into the dream world. Maybe I have the mechanics backwards?
It's not "win rate' it's kill rate, therefore we know exactly how they get it. By killing survivors. The more survivors they kill, invariably, the stronger of a killer they are.
"Free passives? I'm far more scared of killers that can expose you than I am of Freddy. I can run circles around Freddy lol but see, I don't use my anecdotal evidence to counter yours. See how that works?"
A good Freddy will catch you because of snares, so I highly doubt this claim.
He will if you keep looping the same loop. Move away. I literally just listed to someone else how to counter Freddy. It's not hard.
Ok so how many games did he lose then? If that's the kill rate, that doesn't tell us if he won matches. All it says is he can kill.
My entire point here is, all your points are flawed *if* there's no data to back them up. I main Freddy. I still lose games. Somewhat often. And I'm not even in red ranks. I lose more than i win though. Having data of kill rate doesn't actually tell you if it's *win rate*. There's a difference.
And yes, kill rate can LEAD to win rate, but that's not definitive.
Doc has a 7% pick rate EWWWWWWW!!!!!!
Doc I have a far harder time countering than Freddy. His giant ass spark that gets a good portion of the map is aarrgghhhh.
Side question - what does bhvr consider a "win" for the killer? 1 kill? 2 kills? 4 kills?
Its because they have passive sleep.
Fox stated that if he were to change the dream mechanics that he would change that the dream time wouldn't count down until you hit them for the first time. But the timer just means you are in micro sleep. Which also means that Freddy could theoretically hunt you down. Removing the timer until the first hit would not canonically make any sense to his lore.
According to that chart we also need to massively have nurse buffed. Also pig is OP and needs a nerf. Also leatherface is better than spirit so she doesn't need a nerf and I'd totally fine.
Also. As a nurse main with 1.2k hours. She is by far the best killer in the game. Like miles away.
"Ok so how many games did he lose then? If that's the kill rate, that doesn't tell us if he won matches. All it says is he can kill."
A 'win' is subjective in this game. Kills are not. No one is basing their arguments on wins, they base it on kill rate and killer effectiveness.
"My entire point here is, all your points are flawed *if* there's no data to back them up."
Except I have 2 sets of data to back it up.
Wait, Freddy has lore here? #########.
I'm a huge FredHead (it's why I main him) but it's obvious they used the remake version for him, which is bbllaahhhhhh. Microsleep is meh from a canonical perspective.
I figure they patterned him off the new Freddy for licensing reasons but man, I think OG Freddy would be amazing. And Nancy (instead of Quintin. Lame.) Bur since we have a Nancy, get us a Tina. Or even an Alice. Someone from the original series!
No. You don't.
There is not enough evidence. Good try though.
It makes complete sense, what about it doesn't make sense? The lore is supposed to be that he gets his power from people remembering him. If he never attacks someone he can't be remembered.
Furthermore lore should not supersede gameplay. It's a simple change that would make things better for both sides.
I do. Just because they said "don't draw conclusions" does not mean that the charts are meaningless. When you consider ALL this stuff the picture becomes pretty clear that Freddy needs to be tuned down some.
That's not how Freddy gets his power in the new movie. They never explain how he gets his power. He just really likes fear because it makes him all tingly inside, like Nancy did before he got flambe'd.
The old movies, him being remembered didn't really come into play until Freddy vs jason. If remembering was a thing, in freddy's dead the entire town remembered him.
You have 1 chart.
Vet me hard evidence and we will talk. Until then anecdotal evidence is useless. And that's all this forum (and to be fair, most gaming forums) has. It's ok - it's fine, but when pressed for facts, you can't use feelings.
So if "win" is subjective then I'd first like to know what the average is on kills per match. If he has 5000 matches and manages to kill at least 1 person every match, that's not really a bad thing. If he has 500 matches and kills all 4 every time, that's another. But he has counters.
Have I argued that Freddy is fine? Have I argued that Freddy doesn't need to be changed? I'm perfectly fine if he needs change. But I need to see something more than just whining.
Lol and yet none of this addresses the fact that you have no hard evidence. Just because you don't like being pressed doesn't mean it's an invalid argument. (By the way, you fall into group 4. Just an FYI)
The only bhvr stat you have is 1 graphic showing pick rate vs kill rate unless bhvr has actually shared their data with us all and I missed it.
The only echo chamber I see here is the anecdotal evidence chamber. Get me some hard data. Freddy is counterable, like hex perks.
They released a stat dump probably about this time last year, a few months after Freddy's rework, and even there he had a significantly higher kill rate at all ranks. They also included red ranks, where he was still the highest by a wide margin.
Comparing that one to this one it seems that EVERY killer's kill rate went down, but Freddy remains above every other killer by a statistically significant amount.
Also I never claim anything about counter play. YES he can be countered, I won't deny that, but he is still a very strong killer so much that he has the highest kill rate for well over a year.
Fair. Point noted.
I'll be clear. I do not know if Freddy is good or bad because I do not have enough information to determine that.
If I go by my own anecdotal evidence as well as the evidence I see of streamers, then I find I rarely get 4 kills, most of the time it's 1. I can't get to the other side of the map if my power is on cool down, so when they spread out I have no way of countering.
So as far as I'm concerned, Freddy isn't good enough. But I know better than to use my anecdotal evidence.
Bhvrs Stats aren't wrong. You're just taking them farther than they need to go, as even stated by them.
Ok THIS is getting somewhere! Tell me more.
This is good!!! This is data! Even if it's old days it's still something!! Now, give me some figures. Let's work out the math so we can provide stats to the devs that can show them where the breakdown is.
No freddy is not op. He is just very rewarding for being so easy to play. Look at the nurse statistic, which shows that this isn't taken from high ranks.
I must admit that i hate freddy. If you hate freddy i would recommend spinechill, its a very good and underrated perk that ruins his lullaby oblivous effect.
Most of his power actuelly comes from the sleep state, which ruins BT which is stupid, and makes camping good, so an easy fix would be to rework BT so it works on the hooked persons heatbeat.
Regarding to fixing freddy. I believe that the passive clock thing should be buffed, so they actually serve a purpose adding more time to be immune to freddys sleep.
But again, not fine if based on anecdotal evidence. It's backing up his "I feels" rather than "the data continues to show ..." See the difference?
Going to a dev and saying "his kit is bad because he can get anywhere fast. Then add perks and oh no! Now he can slow down AND kick gens to make them worse!". Yes. That's how the game is designed.
But going to s dev and saying "look. Your chart shows he has a pick rate of 3.(whatever) percent. His kill rate is 66%. Based on the other numbers you've given us, as well he really needs to not have 10 traps on the ground. 10 is way too many and he can put them everywhere. If you look at this data here, you can see that 85% of traps laid down are triggered. That's far too high if you have the ability to have 10. Don't you think a 50% chance would be more balanced?"
This example is literally the worst example I pulled out of my ass. You get the point.