Devs, why did you remove old ruin but Ds is still alive?

crixus006

Devs explained us different points about this decision, but game changed since it, genrush is op , they had to fix different maps, a lot of bugs. Killers more campers even tru3talent , ortz have to camp sometimes. If you removed D's I believed that a lot of things can change... Ok if you main goal is to help survivors, you are doing a good job

HommeBizarre

@GoodBoyKaru said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1619297#Comment_1619297

This was the first ever DS

https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/FSNCZZRD8CXB/image.png

Only 5 seconds.

My mistake, sorry

Godot

Why is this another "old Ruin" thread when the current Ruin is perfectly fine, but the old Ruin was literally a game-killer for newer players???

PrincessPoop

@ZaKzan said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1619575#Comment_1619575

Old ruin was effective at the point of the match where the killer has the least amount of pressure. New ruin is effective at the point of the match where the killer has the most amount of pressure. Yes, on paper, obviously new ruin is better, but in practice it isn't. If ruin wasn't a hex totem, you could argue that new ruin is effectively stronger, but as the match goes on, the chance of ruin being cleansed increases, so while new ruin is stronger towards late game, it has less of a chance achieving full effectiveness. Making the argument that new ruin is stronger is just wrong because that does not reflect the current usage of it nor does it reflect the intentions of the devs when they changed it. They changed it specifically to be weaker. This is the same reason why NOED is such a weak perk. Late game builds are not strong because of the unbalanced nature of the game, usually the game is decided way before late game. This is also why corrupt intervention is such a strong perk and widely used, as it is essentially the exact opposite of new ruin or NOED. You sacrifice a perk slot to get 120 seconds of better map pressure at the start of the game, this two minutes of increased pressure is enough to significantly increase win rates / killer effectiveness.

If you want to understand why early game pressure is so strong for killer, just play a lot of oni or billy. The faster you locate and down your first survivor, the faster you can locate the second survivor while the first is on hook and reduce gen progression by 300%. New ruin requires survivors not to be on gens in order for them to regress. Notice how after ruin was changed, it is now normal for 2 gens to be done before the first hook and devs had to change how emblems work to make up for how fast gens get done now.

Your explanation just doesn't stand up to the evidence we have.

Nope, in practice new ruin is still better. Again old ruin was only effective at low- mid ranks as good survivors and red rank swfs can hit skill checks pretty reliably so gens were still popping quickly. Old ruin was only effective against low ranks who would miss every skillcheck, gen tap, or run around the map for 10 mins looking for the totem. So again ruin didn’t give you much early game pressure against decent survivors... just run corrupt intervention it’s way better. Also again new ruin synergizes with other perks much better than old ruin would have. It rewards killers for playing smart and creating interesting builds and is overall much healthier for the game than old ruin was. So yes In practice it’s better, I’ve had much more luck playing with it than old ruin and it’s more fun to use and face.

Avarice10

@CakeDuty said:

If they removed DS killers wouldn't start playing nicer. I really hate hearing people saying that. Killers would just start tunnelling more, cause they know they wouldn't risk getting punished. Have you ever tried playing survivor and loading into a game where there is no obsession? Cause whenever I get into a game like that (I don't run DS anymore, I prefer BT) 80% of the time the killer will just tunnel the first survivor out of the game.

But on the subject, DS has been changed before to be given a condition, Ruin was changed because of the passive slowdown it gave and it hurt new players while not changing much for experienced players. I'd love to see the more abused side of DS removed (locker DS for immunity), but DS as a perk is needed to discourage killers from targeting one survivor.

That's so true. Killers used to camp and tunnel every match back in the day, it was horrible. The worst was when they facecamped because there was no way to unhook. That's why the Devs made BT, DS and the swivel hooks, and it wasn't until these perks started to punish the killers cheap strategy that they stopped camping and tunneling so much. You still get a game where it happens, but they're much rarer than before where 90% of matches the killer tunneled and camped.

It's ironic but the only reason why these perks exist is because the killers did these things so damn much, and back then you'd see the threads bombarded by survivors talking about face camping killers or being tunneled.

Fog_King

DS was already changed too, it's not like they didn't change it at all and only changed Ruin.

ZaKzan

@PrincessPoop said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1620585#Comment_1620585

Nope, in practice new ruin is still better. Again old ruin was only effective at low- mid ranks as good survivors and red rank swfs can hit skill checks pretty reliably so gens were still popping quickly. Old ruin was only effective against low ranks who would miss every skillcheck, gen tap, or run around the map for 10 mins looking for the totem. So again ruin didn’t give you much early game pressure against decent survivors... just run corrupt intervention it’s way better. Also again new ruin synergizes with other perks much better than old ruin would have. It rewards killers for playing smart and creating interesting builds and is overall much healthier for the game than old ruin was. So yes In practice it’s better, I’ve had much more luck playing with it than old ruin and it’s more fun to use and face.

No. You cannot say that ruin was ran by 80% of killers and then say it was only punishing for low rank survivors. You don't seem to understand what exactly I mean.

Old ruin would chase survivors off of gens to find / do the totem. The new ruin doesn't. Also, you're framing your argument in a vacuum, devs haven't just changed ruin, they've also removed infinites / added other perks / added other killers / redesigned many maps / redesigned toolboxes / redesigned how skill checks work on gens. The fact that you're getting more luck catching survivors now vs the time when we had old ruin absolutely has no bearing on the relative strength of the changes, because the game has changed significantly from that time.

When the devs changed old ruin, they had to redesign how the game rewards gatekeeper points because the first 2 gens go extremely fast now. It wasn't common to see the first two gens go before your first hook with old ruin. When they changed old ruin, it had such an effect on the game that they've almost had to redesign how the entire game works with how gens are completed. That's how strong old ruin was. Less people now run ruin. If more people are running a perk before a change and less people are running it after the change, chances are that it's become much less powerful.

A very good video to get an understanding of just how powerful old ruin was, as it explains when killers are weakest in the game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYf4uLxHxro

Leovanni

Genrushing isn't real, DS is just an anti-tunneler perk, ruin and DS are completely different categories (ruin being slow-down perk, DS being pseudo second chance/countermeasures), anecdotal evidence is not real evidence that can speak to game balance. Especially for streamers and youtube people who can alter the evidence.

azame

@HommeBizarre said:

But hey, killers don't know what DS used to be... that's why they still complain

These new killer mains who never played when DS prevented hooks lol.

MusicNerd_TC

@azame said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1619299#Comment_1619299

These new killer mains who never played when DS prevented hooks lol.

Please don't give me PTSD. Oh, and old MoM, that was terrifying.

azame

@MusicNerd_TC said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1621625#Comment_1621625

Please don't give me PTSD. Oh, and old MoM, that was terrifying.

I came back from my break st the end of old MoM glad to say I stacked it with DS. Then again I wasnt that good. So I was carried.