When killers have to "guess" it's fine, but when survivors have to "guess" it's a disaster.
Do you know why Spirit is the "SWF" killer?
Because she doesn't depend on survivors being bad or making mistakes like many other killers do.
AS WE ALL KNOW
Most killers lack abilities that shut down loops in one way or another and have either to power through them (run in circles until survivor is forced to drop a pallet) or try to mindgame survivors (which usually works only in closed loops, where nor killer or survivor can see each other and have to guess what each of them will do.).
Killers are forced to "guess" what moves survivor is going to make and try to predict them and act accordingly or make lucky guesses (if killer has zero clue how survivor and hope that they will be correct. The good example of such "mindgamable loops" are:
- Long&Short high walls. They are usually present by high rocks or walls which cannot be seen through.
- T&L walls
- Jungle Gyms` pallet loop
- Any unique loops with long walls
and etc. In any of these loops, killer has to either power through and waste a lot of time or "mindgame". Good killer has a pretty good understanding of survivors' behaviour in such loops and he can try mindgaming them there and hope his mindgames will work. The thing is, if the survivor is good, he will not fall for these mindgames. Killer will only waste time doing them and he will have to power through loops.
The "M1" killers are at disadvantage in mindgames. They are the ones who have to rely on survivor's mistakes and the ones who have to force these mistakes in order not to get looped for 5 gens. If survivors are bad - mindgames work and killer is winning. If survivors are good, the killer is losing because he cannot afford powering through loops against good survivors.
All "M1" killers mindgames are relying on survivors' mistakes, guessing and trying to force mistakes. Or losing because 1 chase costs too much.
That situation is perfectly fine for many spirit, edgeslinger, pyramid and other "not loopable killers" complainers. They are totally fine when the SURVIVOR is in advantage in loop and killer has to be the one "relying on other's mistakes".
however
When the situation is mirrored, people are going nuts.
When survivors are at the disadvantage and not the killer that's awful.
When survivors have to be the ones "guessing" it's horrible.
When survivors cannot do much against a killer who makes no mistakes it's a disaster.
When survivors are the ones who have to understand killers' behavior in loops (instead of just hearing them/seeing red stain) or lose it's unacceptable.
I'm talking mostly, almost entirely about spirit, as she is the one who gets upper-hand in mindgames, however this partly applies to Deathslinger&Pyramidhead (as they have some other generic counters like early pallet drops, keeping distance or hiding behind obstacles/having direct line of sight between you). As for Spirit - you understand how she moves, there's little guessing for you. If not, then yeah, flip a coin, just like bad killers have to or get downed, just like they power through loops and lose 5 gens in 1 chase.
I'm waiting for your pathetic excuses "yOu DoN't uNdeRsTaNd tHaT iS dIfFeReNt"
Comments
Spirit is like Nurse - terrible at finding survivors. That's her main weakness many survivors don't want and don't know how to exploit.
There's literally nothing a good Spirit can do to stealthy survivors without losing gamechanging amount of time, especially if they know how to avoid generic aura reading perks (hide behind gens&in locker to avoid BBQ, etc).
Yeah, it's boring, but that's how spirit can be effectively countered. She can't use her advantage in loops or in mobility if she doesn't see you entire match.
I recall having some rare Spirit games against stealthing survivors and these games were insanely difficult because I couldn't afford wasting time to find them as 110% killer as they hopped gens immediately when they made sure I'm gone.
Not true. Killers could be guessing while you've already left the loop. They could be guessing and you DONT drop off the floor above. They could be guessing and you could have just used Diversion, or Red Herring. Hell, you could be in 1 of 4 lockers, and the killer has to guess which one you're in, and if wrong, gives you time AND noise to get out and away.
It goes ENTIRELY both ways.
And spirit has it too. She cant see you. You can hear her as she hears you, walking. Use a headset and you're at her level.
Besides that, there SHOULD be super powerful killers, that ALMOST come to a guessing game. If it was blatantly op people would complain, and if it was trash it wouldnt be used. Shes a great balance of knowing how spirit works and playing to that, as well as learning your opponent as a killer at its core, and understanding/guessing your opponents playstyle.
The game does not reward anybody for being stealthy, and nobody can remain like that the whole game and do 5 gens, eventually things will start rolling out for the spirit and it won't stop, it's not that survivors don't want to, it's simply stupid and inefficient, unless you want a game of hide and seek that can last up to an hour.
When you take out both the skill AND the active interaction between killer and survivor, this game becomes so stale you might aswell look at a wall for the rest of the day and get the same result.
What about iron will? That makes it near impossible to hear survivors while phasing, not to mention the countless no noise bugs for survivors that havr been in the game for years.
Just because the game doesn't reward your for stealth as much as it rewards you for running, it doesn't mean that this counterplay isn't legit. You can do 5 gens by stealthing against spirit or at least guarantee yourself a hatch&pip which is also technically a victory.
And implying that stealth doesn't require skill is not correct.
Never implied stealth doesn't require skill, but effective looping and map tile knowledge does require far more, and it's way more rewarding and how it is meant to be played for the best outcome in BP.
If we go with your logic, stealth is every single killer's weakness because nobody can find like that, unless you're a doctor and they don't have calm spirit.
It's like you want survs to wait for 20 mins to play hide the whole match and get a miserable amount of points, killers too.
But then they can't run all 4 second chance perks. You expect them to escape with only 3? They aren't Houdini😎.
Yeah, don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming that Spirit is overpowered or unbeatable. I'm just saying that if the stats did hypothetically show she is overpowered then it's probably because of her combination of fast map travel and solid looping.
Ok, so what's the difference between Spirit fake phasing and survivor's waiting around the corner looking for The Red Stain or the killer physically moon walking? I don't see a difference besides one side having the advantage in a loop which is something that needs to be looked at!
That a survivor's model does not become invisible at any time, while spirit's does in the actual phase.
This is also something that I've been trying to shine a light on! It's also why I say that "Spirit flips the script on survivor's" and they obviously don't ######### like it, which is why I believe that looping needs be looked at so that
The stats aren't very precise. For example they don't take DC into consideration
I think the worst feeling I have dealt with in this game is when I know I play the round perfectly, I still lose and everyone escapes. Not because I wasn't playing well, but simply because the game is designed that if Survivor does well they are guarenteed success regardless the effort or how well the Killer does.
So, "just don't get caught kekw".
You must be new to DBD, and debating in general. I'm a killer main with over 4000 hours in DBD now - 3/4 of which being killer. Don't talk down to me like I'm complaining to complain. That's tru3ta1ents job - my knowledge on this game craps on yours.
No think of a different counter-play. looping isn't the only counter to things
"Just crouch in a corner kekw"
Yes, let's all be bored.
Again - I've forgotten more about this game than you will ever learn. Don't try and take an intellectual high ground against me, bucko. You don't have what it takes. I'll chop you down everytime like a game of whack-a-mole.
Yes, but the issues survivors have with Spirit are not from the asymmetric perspective. The issues aren't about how Spirit is too good as an overall killer (or Deathslinger for that matter); all the issues are about a survivor's individual interaction with a killer. Additionally, long chases are not necessarily the downfall of the killer, especially if the killer can properly capitalize off of a down or a hook. I would also like to point out that a killer can mindgame without making any unsafe guesses if only by hiding his/her red stain when going around corners, and I write this from the experience of a Wraith player who plows through pallets because I don't particularly enjoy making guesses in chase with Wraith (I tend to do decently, but I acknowledge and am content with the fact that my perk choice often prevents me from doing exceptionally).
This was all to reiterate that not making guesses (but using mindgames where it can't hurt) is a way to play killer that doesn't automatically spell defeat but that against killers like Spirit, not making guesses is severely detrimental.
Winning and fun aren't mutually exclusive if you think they are you may need to broaden your horizons. Plus if you keep throwing you selves at a steel door and it doesn't knock over are you just going to keep throwing yourself at it.
Losing isn't the issue. It's not fun to be at a severe disadvantage when in a mind game because you are trying to mind game twice the amount of things the killer is. Your standpoint is one from 2018. Just stop. When you're being chased by a Trapper, or a Hag, or any other killer, really, it's all about who is the better player. The survivor has every opportunity to outplay the killer as the killer does to outplay the survivor. Spirit takes a step backwards there with there being no tell when she goes into her power (unless you're close enough to see it, which is close enough to take a hit) while in a chase (it's not a mind game if you don't know when the mind game begins - and that's where your logic dies), leaving the survivor to guess if she's even using her power, and then on top of that - they now have to guess where she's going, and even if you have Iron Will, and are healthy, and Spirit running Stridor just gets you. Unless they are literally deaf.
Argue with someone you can win against. You're presenting points that have been widely debunked, buried, and had manure spread on them. If you're so afraid of your precious Spirit having a clear tell when she starts using her power, I'm just going to assume it's you who's bad at real mind games.
Do you just want every killer to be a skin like survivors? c'mon man you can't be serious why do killers all have to be beaten the same way? And you aren't debating you are trying to provoke me, but please answer the question.
I don't know what their internal stats look like currently because unfortunately there is no official stat site where you can look at average points or kill ratios by killer for instance. They release a blog post about twice a year or so I think but the last one of those was in November so... 🤷♂️
finnaly someone pointed this out, thanks
The nice thing about playing killers like Spirit, Nurse, Pyramid Head, Huntress, Deathslinger and such, is that you can use their powers and your skill as a player to get hits. You never feel like you're completely helpless in any chase because you have the ability to deal with it. The survivors can still use skill to deal with it, but a really good killer will take you out relatively quick enough. Spirit, however, does this a little too well at times. You might lose games because the survivors play well, you don't play your best, the map sucks or is just too big, stuff like that, but you never feel like things are very often your fault.
That is why people dislike M1 killers, because you can camp and drop every single pallet on the map and an M1 killer will never be able to apply enough pressure and hook your team enough to win if the survivors are half decent and sit on gens. That is why people don't play M1 killers. Why would I willingly play a set group of killers that place me at a severe disadvantage and increase the stress and decrease the fun and enjoyment I have in a game? More importantly, why are these killers not buffed?
There’s about 3 pages of people that have already done that. You don’t want to change your mind so you won’t. Either that or you just wanna argue to argue.
So your comment is proven to be a pathetic excuse. Okay.
Another point that seems to unsaid: the killer SHOULD be at an advantage in the chase. This is a 4 V1 game and the killer is supposed to be the power role. A survivor isn't supposed to last that long, meanwhile, people in here think they should be able to loop and slam pallets at will.
9/10 when the killer is guessing the survivor is also guessing. Spirit only has the survivor guessing. The difference was so hard to find. That’s wild.
Mindgame means to manipulate the other in order to gain an advantage.
I cant play spirit because im half deaf :(