Deep Wound change that could fix the upcomming problem with the "return" of old legion
alright, apparently i havent made this clear enough, but:
THIS IS NOT A POST ABOUT LEGION
this is a post about the Deep Wound status effect. Legion is NOT the main topic of this post and i neigther was nor am aiming at making this killer viable with this change suggestion. This is purely ment to improve the way the Deep Wound status effect works and make it better, while also fighting the upcomming "return of old Legion", which may end up being very unhealthy for this game.
I agree with all of you down there who said Legion needs additional buffs, no actually i think they need a full on Freddy treatment and get complete power rework, however, please keep in mind, that this is not the debate i am trying to have here.
if you wish to have a debate about Legion, i would recommend you to check out @UlvenDagoth. They are a great Forum member who knows a lot about Legion and what could be done about him.
but this is not the right place to debate weather Legion is in a good spot or not. A Legion change is nothing more but a side product of this Deep Wound change!
Thank you for understanding. now enjoy the main post! :D
Dislaimer (for mods):
this is not yet ment to be a suggestion. i am just trying to throw the idea into the room and get some feedback regarding it. if majority of the people like it, i will make a suggestion post in the "Feedback and Suggestions" subforum (might include changes, this is just the first idea ive had)
Deep Wound changes:
uppon being inflicted by Deep Wound, you will gain a stopped timer.
the timer will remain stopped, until you start an action (excludes chase actions like dropping pallets / vaulting, includes any other action such as: repairing, mending, healing, unhooking, cleansing, etc.)
once the timer has been started, it will not stop until it has eigther been removed by the survivor or the survivor bled out and enters the dying state.
mending includes skillchecks. uppon missing a skillcheck, the killer receives a noise notification and your mend bar is reset. you will also be forced out of the animation.
the mend bar can not reach 0% (dropping you dead), while you are in the mending action.
the killer can see the progress of the mend bar again.
why do i think these chases would be good?
the current form of Deep Wound seems like its heavily Survivor sided, basically giving them a free health state with little to no downside to it.
the current Deep Wound has no real effect on the game, mending is a joke and you literally dont have to mend at all, if you stay close to the killer (while he is chasing someone,ysou can stand within 32m to them and just focus on repairing without having to stop and mend), therefore it misses out on the one aspect it is supposed to do, which is slowing down the game.
my change would stop this, as Survivors would now have to leave the area and search for a safe place while they mend, as they otherwise risk being found with an active timer, which would basically mean a guaranteed down, if they dont lose the killer quickly.
that way Deep Wound would actually be a bad effect for Survivors, as they would be literally useless to the team uppon being inflicted with it. there would also be no more problem with the killer seeing the progress of the mending bar, as it wouldnt be able to be abused as a tracking tool - and it sucks when you as the killer dont have information on what survivors are inflicted with tbh.
on top of that, it would indirectly nerf Borrowed Time, as the famous multiple basement escapes would now be a lot riskier to do, since once you have the paused timer, uppon unhooking someone you start bleeding out, therefore risking your own life. with other words, when unhooked with Borrowed Time, you now got to decide between escaping with an additional health state or putting yourself at danger by unhooking someone else, leading to your demise.
this will also indirectly change Legion, as they heavily rely on Deep Wound and they would be able to waste a lot more time than now.
what do you think?
would this help, would you be happy with these changes or would you change it differently?
please share your feedback in the comments!
have a wonderful day / night,
i'll see you in the fog! (or not since im unable to play right now, but the thought counts, doesnt it? :3 )
Comments
The problem is still even if your bar goes to 0% it means nothing unless you are too lazy to mend
well, it does mean that you are now required to ignore any actions while the bar is paused and the killer is nearby.
not doing so would result in you starting your own timer, which is nothing you would want to happen while the killer is around, as you would be screwed if you get found - as the bar no longer stopy during chases.
this would mean you have to leave the area and start mending somewhere far away, wasting a lot more time than now.
when the killer is not around, Deep Wound is not supposed to guarantee downs or be a big threat, so its relatively safe to remove it when no ones around. however, when the killer is near you, it should be a lot more risky.
Ya but if the survivor is able to trigger it deep wounds and let's say it's still the same mending time it takes now legion is still bad since he'll either be looped and gens get popped or he'll leave to tag someone else and the person who got tagged will mend on the spot and since the timer won't hit 0 in chase it's kinda useless you just made current legion with extra steps
"not doing so would result in you starting your own timer, which is nothing you would want to happen while the killer is around, as you would be screwed if you get found - as the bar no longer stops during chases." (1:1 from the last comment - with fixed typo)
"once the timer has been started, it will not stop until it has eigther been removed by the survivor or the survivor bled out and enters the dying state." (1:1 from the OP)
=> the timer will remain active, until you go down. if you enter a chase with an active timer, you can count the seconds to your death. however, this time its reliant on the survivor weather they get themselves into that situation or not, which makes it fair.
also, yes Legion would still be a terrible killer.
this post is not aiming at buffing Legion, but reworking Deep Wound, so its less Survivor sided and more risky to use, which would indirectly lead to a smaller Legion buff.
Legion is NOT the focus of this post.
if i were to talk about Legion changes, i would suggest a full on power rework for them, as their current power is way too insignificant to be somewhat viable.
If we were to talk Legion Changes: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/107618/the-one-stop-shop-for-legion-ideas-come-on-in-and-take-a-look-version-2#latest
The Fanatical Legion main here to tell you: This is an interesting change! I kinda like it but would have to try it out to see how it worked. ANYTHING is better than the nonthreatening version we have atm. BLEEDING OUT FROM A DEEP WOUND is apparently not that big a deal right now. Just a bit of poking and that artery is sealed right up!
i think you once added this idea already to this super long legion post, havent you? xD
i remember talking to you about it once...
tbf ive had the idea for quite some time now, but never really made it into its own post, so here it is! :D *party noises*
I might have XD I had to start it over though cause it wont bump up any more.
I like this idea. Here are my points of criticism for your post.
mending includes skillchecks. uppon missing a skillcheck, the killer receives a noise notification and your mend bar is reset. you will also be forced out of the animation.
This will make mending against a doctor extremely annoying and heavily depends on the difficulty of the skill checks. Also why make the failed skillcheck reset your meter? if its to not let a 0% meter kill you then that is redundant because failing that skillcheck means death anyways, due to the killer going to your location.
no more problem with the killer seeing the progress of the mending bar, as it wouldnt be able to be abused as a tracking tool
while this is true, the mending will still give more info than you may realize. If i see the bar has yet to activate then I know that survivor is doing literally nothing productive, if it started mending the moment I leave them as legion I'll go back immediately and chase them till they down.
Speaking of legion, due to his franks mixtape add on he could still deplete the meter on hit so what will this do? will it deplete the total meter or will it deplete the starting of the mending.
Lastly I feel this won't effect bt nearly as much as you made it out to do. It will act the same way if it's only one person who is being unhooked and actually make it stronger during egc because you don't need to do nearly as much actions. I could completely ignore deep wounds if and run to victory instead of being forced to mend once out of your tr.
Excellent idea though, these are just my nit picks and points of clarity I feel is needed.
Please respond cause i enjoy talks like this
Deep wounds is not a free health state.
Healthy -> deep wounds
1. Mend = injured state when you could have used that time to heal to healthy state
2. Don't mend = dying state, which is 2 health states down
Injured -> deep wounds
1. Mend = injured state when you could have used that time to heal to healthy state
2. Don't mend = dying state, which is 1 health state down.
Deep wounds takes the worth equal to at least 1 health state in either situation. It is a very biased perspective to actually see it as a free health state
Honest opinion... this is over-complicated and wouldn't solve the underlying issue that Deep Wounds is both non-threatening and exploitable.
________________________________
Better solution. REMOVE THE TIMER. Instead Deep Wounds reduces repair speed of survivors by 10%. Different sources incur different timers. Basically make it the Mangled for repairing.
Legion is 30 seconds of Deep Wounds. Nasty/Filthy Blades increases the duration of Deep Wounds to 45/60 seconds and do not stack. Stab Wound Study increases the effect by 50% (so 15% penalty). Frank's Mix Tape makes the timer pause when within the killer's TR, in Dying State, or on a hook.
Begrimed Chains (Billy/Bubba) and Begrimed Head (Huntress) now simply inflict Deep Wounds for 120 seconds. The timer does NOT reset if hit again. Functionally these add-ons would be the same (though numbers would change slightly) all that really changes is terminology here.
BT now just gives Endurance and works just like MOM. But if you take a hit, you get Deep Wounds and Hindered for 60 seconds. DW adds risk to using BT before end game, and Hindered adds risk to using it after end game (as killer can more easily chase down the BT guy if they are just booking it to the gate).
Styptic Agent would auto-heal the survivor over 40 seconds. Anti-Haemorrhagic Syringe would auto-heal the survivor over 20 seconds. Buffs/debuffs no longer affect this timer and the survivor will be shown in the Broken status during the auto-heal process. Only the add-ons would be used, not the entire medkit.
MOM doesn't change.
More add-ons/perks can be made with the Deep Wounds effect at durations that are reasonable.
thanks for the reply ^^
regarding your first point, we would be talking about normal skillchecks (maybe without the great skillcheck zone). the point is not to make mending extremely hard to do, but to add some interaction to it other than holding M1.
this would be a little harder with a doctor, though isnt doc supposed to make skillchecks more difficult and force survivors to heavily focus on them?
now for the resetting meter, i was talking about the mending bar, not the Deep Wound timer. the timer will keep ticking down, while you have to waste even more time than before by running to a safer location and mend again, from the very start.
this was ment to buff Deep Wounds main reason of existing: wasting time, while also adding some risk to it.
and tbh i can really see someone starting to sweat when they are at 1% timer progression (so its a down as soon as he breaks out of mending), who just failed a skillcheck but couldnt run away, due to the timer being critically low. its like being on a pig box with the timer paused at 99% while you are searching it. if the killer finds you, you are dead, if you fail a skillcheck you are dead and if its the wrong box you are dead.
i have been heavily inspired by the pig in that scenario tbh.
the informatiom part is something that, while it is definitely true, i dont believe its that much of a deal tbh. the only thing the killer gets to know here is, that one survivor is currently doing nothing, which SHOULD be the case witth Deep Wound.
for the scenario you mentioned, thats the survivors fault for not going to an safe location though. if you decide to mend at an obvious place, you are at fault for dying here. thats why i said the change was gonna be more of a time waster, as you wouldnt want the killer to find you once you start mending, so you would want to go to a safe location far away from the killer, wasting a lot of time in the process.
regarding Legion, this post is not aiming at changing Legion. his add ons and power would stay unchanged, this is just ment to change the Deep Wound status effect in general.
Franks Mixtape would work the exact same way it does now, cutting off a certain percentage of your overall mending bar, but not activating it.
and lastly for Borrowed Time:
this, again, didnt have the intention to nerf / buff BT, its just ment to change the way Deep Wound works, which indirectly changes the way BT works. you are right, during the endgame this might be more of a buff, however it isnt really gonna change that much tbh. if you were to chase them with current BT, their timer would be paused anyway and if you wouldnt, they'd just mend and thats it.
it would however nerf these scenarios where one guy slipped in with BT and then everyone gets unhooked by each other and they all have a bonus health state, allowing them to escape without any penalities to it. throw DS into the mix and its basically an guaranteed escape from what should have been a 4k right then and there.
also as a side note: BT only gives you endurance for the next 15 seconds uppon being unhooked. if you would really want to avoid the perk, wait out this time, that hasnt changed at all.
if you have any more concerns / questions, feel free to ask ^^
Legion got a probably pretty good build with nemesis. With those changes they are even more useless, never thought that's even possible.
first of all, i would be interested to know why you think this would be over-complicates / why this would be exploitable.
cause i think its actuall pretty simple: start an action, start the timer. get rid of the timer or go down.
imo the current version is much more over-cimplicated.
___________________________ (yes, i'm a copycat)
now for your idea, i do kinda like it, though i dont find it to be fitting for a Deep Wound...
imo this gen slower effect (which already exists), should be its own status effect.
your idea would be a literal 180 degree turn from the current version, which is something i dont think is gonna happen tbh...
legion just got changed to get rid of exactly that.
bringing it back immediately would hurt the health of this game much more than this change.
If there is a timer where you will go into dying after a point, it will somehow be exploited. And if not, it just becomes a non-threat. Those are the two options for such a mechanic. There is no in between, especially when a killer can inflict it upon you at will. Maybe if Legion's power wasn't tied to DW you could find that precarious balance point but it would require an entire rework of the killer. I'm not going to sit and theory craft this because it's just inevitable, the whole idea that you go down after X time is a poorly design mechanic, period. It might sound good on paper, but in practice it's just lame for all parties.
What I suggest is simple. The effect is basically already in the game under Begrimed add-ons (albeit with different values). You'd just turning Deep Wounds into that effect. Legion becomes a slow down killer, similar to old Freddy, where the goal is to spread the damage, slow down gens, and use your power to find everyone. Except it wouldn't be to the extent of old Freddy and would make Legion an actual threat with map pressure.
With Deep Wounds working this way, you also expand the options for future powers/perks/add-ons. Clown, for example, could have one of his purple add-ons changes to inflict DW on survivors he hits while in the gas. Something like 40 seconds. This alone could help him with map pressure, you wouldn't need to make other changes to him as much to make him more viable.
It just makes more sense to ditch the dying timer altogether and go with something else, and since we could use a Mangled effect for gen repair, this makes the most sense and fits with the current mechanic. Begrimed add-ons are the same as before, it just says "Inflict Deep Wounds" instead of a full explanation.
i know where you are coming from here, there has been a lot of abuse with this mechanic in the past, however this is also something i thought about when creating this idea.
the main goal was to make the mechanic overall better, while also not allowing for any of said exploids to happen.
just out of curiosity:
how do you think one would be able to abuse a timer that wont do anything unless the player affected by the timer actively starts it?
the killer cant just deactivate his TR and start the timer, he cant moonwalk to start it, he cant do anything to it - excluding Franks Mixtape.
the only time this timer would activate would be uppon the survivor entering an action, which is completely on them.
the only thing the killer could do is stealth away and pretend he left, when in reality he was stalking the survivor - which imo is perfectly fine.
and back to your idea:
again, i support turning this gen slow down into an actual effect.
however, i feel like it would neigther fit the name "Deep Wound", nor would it make sense for the devs to make such drastic changes to an effect. they will probaply just add it as its own effect, however deleting a current effect and adding a completely new one in its place doesnt sound like its gonna happen tbh.
also sorry for the late reply, i wasnt feeling too well yesterday and therefore wasnt here for long.
Just make it so survivors can't do any channeling objective (excluding unhooking). Untill they are mended.
Honestly they should remove Deep Wound from Feral Frenzy and do something else with it. Like Mob Mentality or just something. Deep Wound makes Legion either worthless or broken... then you add the long stun time, the 'If you miss you lose power, and if you hit outside of power, you lose 50% of your power." thing.... it's really too much.
"the killer cant just deactivate his TR and start the timer, he cant moonwalk to start it, he cant do anything to it - excluding Franks Mixtape."
There are several perks and add-ons that remove TR. Some killers can do it at will (Pig, Wraith, GF). So yea, killers could find ways to exploit this still.
And if the killer can't exploit it, then it's just a non-threat to the survivor. A literal joke of an effect that doesn't force them to do anything except look at another progress bar for a short time. My friends and I started to disrespect Legions by Mending the instant they hit us because it's such a joke. If they use their power to find someone else, we are done Mending before they even find someone else. If they get triggered and chase normally, well it's a normal chase at that point.
Again the problem is having a timer before you go into dying. The whole concept is flawed and needs to be ditched for something better.
I don't think it's a bad concept, the problem is that it doesn't change the core problem with Legion, which is his power is doo doo. The only way too fix Legion is by completely reworking him like Freddy. His power will either be way too strong and uncounterable, or way too weak and frustrating too play as.
No need to disrespect Legions, but I agree having a Killer give you Deep wound as there power is the worst. It's either useless or broken. Legion needs something else on there Feral Frenzy or just a rework in general.
If it's a Susie, there is plenty reason boi
😜
no there isnt. There is no reason to disrespect a person using a bundle of code to play a video game.
(and yes, i know it's a joke but i'm being serious)
Another heretic who think nemesis is "pretty good". Wasted few minutes for down one man ONCE (chase, stun, FF hit, chase until he bleed out, hook), oh look 3 gens is gone.
Also if survs is smart enough it would happen only once, after that they would drop pallets earlier. Almost dead perk.
@FriendlyGuy Another heretic who think nemesis is "pretty good". Wasted few minutes for down one man (chase, stun, FF hit, chase until he bleed out, hook), oh look 3 gens is gone.
Also it can be happen only once if survs is smart enough, they will drop pallets earlier.
well, yes he can. but it aint gonna help him.
the timer ONLY starts when the survivor starts an action, thats it.
the killer wouldnt be able to exploid this mechanic, as starting the timer would be comlpetely in the survivors hands. if they get found with an active timer, its because THEY messed up somehow, not because the killer exploited the mechanic.
denying the killer the ability to exploid this mechanic was one of the main reasons i made this post afterall.
also, no this status effect is not ment to be a huge risk to have.
it was never ment to be, neigther i nor the devs wanted it to be a huge risk.
this status effect is ment to waste time.
and that is what my version would do significantly better than the devs version, without adding longer M1 bars or boring, non interactive gameplay mechanics.
my version basically gives the survivor a choice:
1) get rid of the deew wound timer ASAP and start working on the objective again (basically what survivors currently do with DW). this however now comes with a big risk: IF the killer finds out about that (also by the mending bar starting to go down) and they spot you, you are dead. its basically old Borrowed Time, where the killer can just walk after you and you drop after some time.
2) find a safe location (which is wasting time) and then mend (wasting more time). this has no real risks to it and allows you to get rid of the status effect relatively safely, at the cost of precious time.
here's a scenario to make it more clear:
you are at a gen that is ~75% completed. Legion dashes around the corner and applies DW to you, then proceeds to kick the gen and leave to chain his attack. now what do you do? do you stop the gen from regressing and mend right there? that might be a bad decision, cause if the killer comes back, you are dead. you could also go to the map border where the killer has not run off to and mend there. this would allow you to get rid of the DW safely, however the gen is gonna be very regressed by the time you have returned to it, lets say down to 45%.
(i chose random numbers)
also, the scenario you described you'd do with your friends is also gonna be gone with my change. mend in their face and you will bleed out right in front of them, they wouldnt even have to try and catch you, you just cought yourself for them.
since it appears like you havent fully understood my change suggestion, let me try to break it down to you once more, hopefully in a more understandable way:
1) you get the DW effect. the timer is paused.
2) YOU start the timer by starting an action (including mending, excluding chase actions, so you can still have a normal chase if the killer tunnels you with this effect)
3) once the timer has started, it ticks down until you are dead, or you removed it. it is NOT going to stop anymore, even if you happen to be in a chase.
=> we get to the choice you need to make i described above.
=> this is not ment to be life threatening when you get inflicted by it. it is ment to waste your time, which is what it was always ment to be. the one and only version of this concept that was ment to be an active threat, is the long ditched old version of Borrowed Time.
also one question about your logic here:
on one hand you imply that a killer being able to exploid the power would be a bad thing, but on the other hand you say that the killer not being able to exploid the power would also be bad, since the status effect would not be threatening that way?
so there is literally no way for this power to ever be in a good spot?
if thats your opinion, thats your opinion, however i dont feel like thats a fair opinion towards this topic. you basically say it wouldnt matter what i try to change, if it isnt a complete rework of this status effect you'd disagree with it.
i apologize that i havent made this clear enough.
you are not the first to imply that my change wouldnt fix legion, so i now edited the main post accordingly.
for future posts you may or may not do in here, please keep in mind that this discussion is not about Legion. this is primarily about the Deep Wound status effect.
thank you very much!
also, i am glad you liked the idea ^^