The One Stop Shop for Legion ideas! Come on in and take a look VERSION 2!
I noticed that the other thread wasn't being bumped up any more, SO, Here's it again, brand new and Shiny! If you had ideas in my other thread, COME ON AND POST THEM AGAIN! Let's keep it alive this time!
So me and @LordGlint were talking about DBD and I told him that I was working on an Idea for Legion. I originally wanted something that hearkened back to there gang. Some kind of locker insanity or something but honestly, none of that would work, or at the very least it would be rather hard to put in game. So we started asking, what is Legion's main issue? Well, his power is kinda useless. By the time you slash one person, the rest have gone OR if they are injured they hear your TR and just book it.
First of all, let's take the removal of the blood trail in FF and the "M1s remove 50% of your power" things away. Those are silly and honestly, neither of us could come up with one good reason the Devs did that.
Secondly, DO NOT WORRY! We are not making his power lethal or put the chase on a "Timer". That is why people hated old Legion. We don't want that again.
So back to the main point. What do you do when you see Legion put deep wounds on someone nearby? You BOOK IT! You can't hide, but you can get away till they get hit with the end of power stun. Survivors know about There presence in advance in the general area... in other words the next victims.
So, you might be asking yourself, what do you do? Well it's simple! You could do one or more of these things!
- Remove his TR and red stain in FF. Just straight remove it so that he can run up on survivors and get them with FF and surprise them. Make the KI work on a radius. You could say there Frenzy is so great it cuts the ties the Entity have put on them for a limited time.
- (
Make his base TR 16 and his FF TR 24. Kinda a new approach to the same idea. This way would also open up Legion to be able to sneak up better on the people he has hit with his FF and need to m1 now to down. Legion is already the shortest Killer (yes, shorter than Hag) so they could FINALLY live up to the trailer and be even a LITTLE sneaky.) HI! This has been voted down by the others in the thread but keeping it up for Reference! - After hitting two survivors with Feral Frenzy the Legions red stain is removed for x amount of seconds which would help with downs. Third hit lowers terror radius by 8 meters for x amount of seconds which could help with hitting that last survivor. With monitor and abuse the terror radius will be 16 meters. Addons could influence this.
- First two survivors hit with Feral Frenzy grants 2% increased movement speed each while the third grants a 1% increase bringing their movement speed in Feral Frenzy up to 130%. (numbers might be too low?)
- At base, being hit with Feral Frenzy causes mangled that persists until fully healed. Can't be stacked with other mangled status effects like sloppy butcher but works with coulraphobia and the like. (After rereading this one, it's kinda Meh, so it wouldn't be good enough on it's own.)
- If a survivor stops mending then they are downed. Deep wound timer depletes while doing an action (mending, repairing, sabotaging and so on) even while near the killer. If not doing an action the deep wound timer does not deplete while within 32 meters of the killer.
You hit someone with FF and run off to hit someone else. You hit them and end your frenzy or don't make it ti them and end the power. When out of FF you hear the heartbeat and see the KI mark for a very short amount of time (for balance) every x amount of seconds while that first survivor is mending. (this was more of an Example)After thinking about it, I think @Kabu changed this one to Add-on only. Let me know if i'm wrong Kabu!
Thank you @Kabu For the 3-7 ideas and the next few add-ons till you get to Mob Mentality! I forgot to credit them before! Sorry!
"But what about the stun?" Well, if you think about it, it's similar to Nurse. It's there to make sure that you don't just end it and m1. You MIGHT be able to shorten it, but it's not bad because it serves it's purpose.
Add on suggestions:
- Survivors are revealed by killer instinct for a very short amount of time every x amount of seconds while mending When out of FF. See previous post for explanation.
- Survivors suffering from deep wound make louder injured noises. (This should be base, also make unique pain sounds, IE: more grunts and long, drawn out groans of pain)
- Survivors have their aura revealed for x amount of seconds when they stop mending.
Frank's mix tape rework: Hitting a survivor with FF then hitting another one and going back to hit the first survivor depletes the deep wound bar by a large amount. Maybe doesn't fully deplete the Frenzy bar but would still stun Legion. Would still be hard to down with frenzy but it adds pressure.Sorry Kabu, but the more I think about it the more I doubt you'd get in this situation too often.- Increases FF duration tremendously (5 to 8 seconds) but with increased stun duration (.5 seconds to 1 second)
- Survivors hit with FF suffer from the hindered status effect for a short time.
Honestly, even with JUST these changes, We think that Legion would be in a better place AND keep the play style that Legion players love. Maybe even add old FF speeds back? Edit: we NEED the old Vaulting speeds back. Being looped while in FF is the SADDEST feeling.
Also shoutout to @Frosty for getting me to think of this in the first place and for wanting me to post it.
This doesn't have many thoughts on Mending and Deep Wounds, cause after BT got it too, it's no longer just a Legion Issue.
AND NOW for a REALLY good idea from @MongByeolBuddies
Here's my idea to help with, imo, Legion's two main problems:
* For killers, that’s getting a second hit and downing the survivor.
* For survivors, it's having to mend, which is boring and makes Legion obnoxious to go against.
My solution -- Change the Deep Wound status effect and give Legion a secondary power -- Mob Mentality.
-------------------------
Feral Frenzy:
Hitting a survivor not affected by the Deep Wound status effect during Feral Frenzy applies DW and gives Legion 1 charge of Mob Mentality.
Deep Wound now applies a 20 percent penalty to repair, healing and sabotage speeds.
Survivors now remove the DW status effect by healing to full health, not by mending. DW lasts indefinitely.
Hitting a survivor affected by DW during Feral Frenzy applies 1 more DW. Survivors suffering from 4 Deep Wounds will enter the dying state. This will be tracked on the HUD.
Legion cannot use Mob Mentality during Feral Frenzy.
Legion can have up to 3 charges of Mob Mentality at one time.
------------------------
Mob Mentality:
Press the secondary power button to use 1 charge and summon a Legion member.
Any survivor within 16 meters of Legion will hear an audio cue -- a whistle -- when Mob Mentality is used.
The Legion member will appear 2 seconds later, crouched down in the spot you summoned him or her and wait for any survivor to get within range. When a survivor is within range, the Legion member will lunge at the survivor and attempt to hit them.
If a healthy survivor is hit, he or she will be injured; if an injured survivor is hit, he or she will enter the dying state.
Regardless of whether the hit connects, the Legion member will dissipate in a cloud of smoke.
Legion can summon all three other members this way. If Legion summons a member while all three members are currently on the map, the first member to be summoned will switch to the new location. Legion cannot summon members within 8 meters of another member.
Survivors within 16 meters of Legion members can detect them by looking in their direction for 3 seconds. During detection, survivors will receive an audio cue. Once fully detected, the Legion members will dissipate in a cloud of smoke.
If a survivor sets off a Mob Mentality trap, the Legion receives an audio and visual cue. If survivors fully detect a Legion member, the Legion does not receive an audio and visual cue.
Also, Mob Mentality is a trap so perks, such as Small Game, will work against it.
----------------------------------------------------
Add-on changes to reflect the new Deep Wound status effect and Mob Mentality:
Smiley Face Pin -- Start with 1 charge of Mob Mentality.
Defaced Smiley Pin -- Start with 1 charge of Mob Mentality. The auras of survivors who fully detect a Legion member or are hit by him or her are revealed for 3 seconds.
The Legion Pin -- Start with 2 charges of Mob Mentality. The auras of survivors who fully detect a Legion member or are hit by him or her are revealed for 5 seconds.
Nasty Blade -- Slightly increases the penalty to Repair, Healing and Sabotage speeds (5 percent) to survivors suffering from the Deep Wound status effect.
Filthy Blade -- Moderately increases the penalty to the Repair, Healing and Sabotage speeds (10 percent) to survivors suffering from the Deep Wound status effect.
Frank’s Mixed Tape -- Legion members are invisible to survivors outside of 8 meters.
Fuming Mixed Tape -- Legion no longer needs charges to use Mob Mentality. MM now has a 10-second cooldown. The Legion can no longer use Feral Frenzy.
-----------------------------------------------------
This will allow Legion to still be a rush down killer and buffs them by providing them a tool -- Mob Mentality -- to counter looping, as well as set ambushes.
This new change also allows Legion to use Mob Mentality whenever Legion wants (albeit not in Feral Frenzy), and the survivor will only be aware that Legion has used MM if the survivor is within 16 meters of Legion when MM is used.
The change to the DW status effect also means survivors no longer have to worry about mending. Survivors suffering from DW can heal themselves back to full health slightly slower than normal or the survivor can find a teammate not suffering from DW to heal back to full health without any speed penalty -- making going against Legion more enjoyable for survivors.
(This also would get rid of a few not strictly Legion problems: Nurse’s Calling not detecting mending and other anti-healing perks not affecting mending, and killers who can drop their terror radiuses like Freddy and The Pig making the DW timer tick down while still chasing a survivor, which feels cheap.)
(Borrowed Time can be changed to something like: After unhooking a Survivor within the Killer's Terror Radius, for 11/13/15 seconds, any damage taken that would put the unhooked Survivor into the Dying State will instead apply the Deep Wound status effect.)
Plus, I think it would be awesome for Legion to actually play like, you know, a Legion! Lastly, if possible, it would be extremely cool if the teammates you summoned could wear any cosmetics you’ve acquired, making it so you could customize the look of your own Legion.
And now a variation of the above by @pemberley !
I propose that we take the same concept of Mob Mentality but instead the member seizes and holds the survivor in place for the player to stab. Every player in the map gets a scream notification, the killer sees the aura too. The grasp is inescapable except through other flashlight or cracker saves, if the survivor has a cracker themselves, or if the survivor “wiggles” like normal and claws at their hand or elbows them in the face - this would disable the trap, I think this would be more in line with Legion, it’s lore friendly, and probably won’t require as much code spaghetti as making accurate ai.
Which Mong added that the grab could give them either Exposed/Oblivious or both cause they are fighting out of the grab! Even if it didn't there are Add-on ideas that could do it!
Comments
I think if you remove the "Deep Wounds stacks eventually down someone" bit from the Mob Mentality idea and just make Feral Frenzy hits inflict action speed penalties, that gets rid of the part of the Legion that is most difficult to balance.
Yeah, that might be true too.
Awesome! I'm glad you like the idea.
As for your questions:
1. I did the math (took data from deadbydaylight.gamepedia.com) and made sure the stall potential is reduced.
So right now, it takes 12 seconds to mend and 16 seconds to heal (with a standard medkit), so it takes you 28 seconds total after being hit with Feral Frenzy to get back to full health. With my proposed 20 percent action speed reduction, you can start healing immediately so it would take you 19.2 seconds to get back to full health.
If you stack Filthy Blade and Nasty Blade, currently they add 4 seconds to mend so 16 seconds (mend) + 16 seconds (heal) so 32 seconds. If you stack them with my proposed change, resulting in a 35 percent action speed reduction, it would take 21.6 seconds.
Also, you can get your unaffected teammates to heal you and then there is no penalty.
That being said, if this is still too much stall and annoying to go against, the action speed penalties can be reduced or NB and FB can be reworked.
2. In my opinion, it would be OK to bring this aspect back now because Legion has a much higher cooldown for Feral Frenzy, can't see blood in FF and is taken out of his power if he whiffs so there is enough counterplay and time inefficiency for Legion that it shouldn't be a problem.
@Almo @Peanits @not_Queen @MandyTalk @Gay Myers (Luzi)
I can't believe you did it. Good job. You have successfully made me lose all faith in BHVR and any hope that you listened to your community. All of this feed back and what do we get? The Deep Wound Changes... the Legion getting all that taken from them with just some movement speed to try and make up for it... even the Oni nerf in a small way, since you gave him no time to settle in like you said you would. I no longer want to play. I no longer want to support this game at all. Giving Legion the movement speed while removing all threat of Deep Wound... what? Are we supposed to be happy cause "At least it's something"? All these "Buffs" are just nerfs you slapped on Legion for no reason and are reverting. Survivors can get hit with Feral Frenzy and just run around. Something that is supposed to be them bleeding out... and they can run around no problem. You make Legion even weaker, cause none of you know how to handle their power or the Deep Wound mechanic which was flawed to begin with. You couldn't just replace Deep Wound. No, you just made Legion's power literally a punishment. So yea.... You did it. You made me give up. Congratulations.
Just remove Deep wounds from Legion if it's so darn hard to balance.
Since they want to cremate Legion with burning them when they were already Dead.
Rework for Legion. The ashes of the Legion form together into one body. The Legion has the power to leave copies of themselves (A ashen version of the former Legion member) as traps. These traps set Survivors on fire, making them scream and lose a health state. Feral Frenzy is replaced with "Ashen Advance" Where the ashes flow into the Fog, speeding across the Trial to converge on the closest Survivor.
Devs at this stage you honestly have three suggestions you could take to effectively fix Legion.
Suggestion number 1:
This is probably the most preferable to most people who mainly Legion. Keep the fast speed, killer instinct, chain hits and the vaulting aspect of Legion but replace deep wounds with another status condition because you guys legitimately cannot properly balance it.
Any time you try to balance deep wounds it ends up having a knock on effect which nerfs Legion and buffs borrowed time and styptic agent.
Once you implement a different status condition it would be a lot easier for you guys to effectively balance their kit so even though they're power is not lethal it can at least contest with Lethal abilities. Because in its current state frenzy really doesn't do much but waste both The Legion and survivors' time
Suggestion number 2:( Personally I'm not a fan of this because I do enjoy the vaulting and the stabbing but at this stage it might be necessary)
Rework Legion from scratch give them a completely different power. Give them an ability that has lethality so they can can contest with other Killers.
There have been multiple suggestions for a completely different power for Legion most of which are in this thread. Ranging from focusing on Legion having a group-based ability to others amazing ideas.
Suggestion number 3:
Increase the effectiveness of the frenzy aspects besides deep wounds. In its current state does not do enough for it to warrant the immense amount of downsides that Legion's kit brings to them.
So if you want to continue having deep wounds be attached to Legion without changing the affliction or completely reworking the power then please and minimise these downsides.
1) 4 seconds stun being probably the biggest contender. Revert it back to 3 seconds even if you have to change the add-ons to compensate
2) Reducing the limit on the tracking capabilities without the ability to do the moonwalk exploit anymore and frenzy having no real lethal capabilities there's no need to have blood or scratch marks be blocked from the Legion
3) power depletion once again frenzy doesn't really have any lethal potential so having your power completely depleted on a missed swing is stupid. Either have the ability just get cancelled out but you keep your current progression or revert the missed hit effects.
4) This goes hand in hand with the problem above but having to wait roughly 20 seconds to get your power back on something that is not lethal is ridiculous. It's not a blink or phasing where I can actually down people so why do I have to wait so so long between uses is beyond me. It also makes using the power as a traversal tool absolutely terrible.
5) final point for this suggestion but for the love of God rework the add-ons.
Franks mixtape and stab wounds study have literally become way more useless than they were before.
If you have fuming mixtape you're punished for actually using your ability.
The killer instinct detection range add-ons suck please change them back to speed.
Pins you guys did a good job with this but can you please increase the duration of these add-ons cause currently there pitiful. Especially considering you've taken synergy out of frenzy when it comes to perks like sloppy Butcher or third seal which did these jobs better.
Power
We are Legion
There are 2 other husks on the board that are hollow. When ability is activated take control of one of the husks and leave your husk behind. 30 second cool-down. Husks have original killer terror radius terror radius. Husks do not have collision.
Addons
could add up to 2 more husks
shorten cool down
increase terror radius
115 movement 24 m terror
This gives him strategic play and makes it feel like there are more killers on the board but there is only 1.
While the reverted nerfs are welcome on Legion , the deep wound nerf makes Legion even more of a joke . The main problem right now is that there is no difference for Legion between chasing an injured survivor, or chasing a survivor with deep wound on. the power itself serves no purpose in the chase once the survivor is not healthy. In SOME cases , sometimes you will inflict deep wound on an injurd survivor for the detection ability, but this is rare, usually you will, like all killers, want to chase down the person you inflicted deep wound on , especially if killer istinct is not revealing anyone near. then you have to stun yourself for 4 seconds (3 seconds base was fine btw) before starting the chase again. And like I said, once the chase restarts there is no difference for Legion between chasing an injured survivor and a survivor with deep wound active. You just have to be a m1 killer (albeit one with a 4 second stun between the first hit and being able to chase again) and eat every pallet, every vault like a m1 killer, which is NOT fun.
If you at BHVR hate the deep wound mechanic on Legion, I do agree it could be replaced with a debuff, and I'll even be more precise : it should be replaced by a debuff that MATTERS in a chase, such that Legion has incentive to use his power on injured survivors , which is NOT the case right now , right now if you stab an injured survivor with deep wound and nothing shows up in killer istinct, congratulations you just offered the survivor 4 seconds of free distance from you, because you have to stun yourself for those 4 whole seconds to restart the chase and actually be threatening to the survivor now. (and IF you want to go stab someone else ? Then the survivor you were chasing wins the chase, and you just gave up a lot of time for maybe another chase where this will happen all over again) Deep Wound right now is not a threat, which makes no sense for the killer. you have to suffer some kind of penalty that matters in a chase if you have deep wound, else why even bother with it once survivors start to work on gens while injured ?
On the subject of add-ons now :
I hope someone from BHVR read this post to the end, and if you could tell me that I did not write this huge wall of text for nothing , even a simple "I read this post" would be really nice to me. I'm really hoping this helps.