CosmicScientist
CosmicScientist
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- CosmicScientist
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@Rizzo said:
My question is have you ever played her before that match or that was your first match as pig?
I know how the ambush works and i know it can miss sometimes, but the point is that it actually lets you catch up with the survivor anyway, also you can fake it and you can just crouch uncrouch to make the survivor leave the loop, like i already said.
I'm done discussing tho, there's literally no point because you don't want to change your mind, you just want to throw your frustration at us, because you are not able to use a killer properly.
Yes, since about her release. I did say I bought her around then and have been disappointed all that time, in the OP of all things.
Doesn't really catch up if it goes wrong and if they've buggered off. Crouch, uncrouch leads to the same worst case scenario of just another loop.
You can keep using your killers "properly" in low skill matches and keep watching streamers struggle against low skill players. Have fun, I just wish I could in the good ol' European region.
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@rina said:
Also why wouldn’t any other killer care about that missed swing at shack? If you missed with pig you would’ve missed with any other M1 115% killer.
M1 115%? So... not Trapper because he puts a trap on the window of if he's smart in the grass next to the door. I can't say I know many other M1s though... Ghostface could just break off and find someone else without caring since if he's in a chase, he's halfway to losing already. Can't be Michael since he has a longer lunge.
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No you never mentioned Sprint Burst, probably because you never read the OP.
Sprint Burst doesn't just kick in when in the open, have you never played her? She's pretty visible on everything except full walls or maybe it's just that I play against maxed volume survivors.
I called it stupid because we're in a balance forum. If you're saying "Just don't go there", that's pretty unreasonable for balance. What is it, a safe space I'm not supposed to win in?
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Then tell me, if I drop the chase, go after someone else, they run to the building, they go through straight lines, they drop a couple of pallets that extend the chase by minutes.
Where does that get me? Breaking off again as another generator is done?
Marvellous.
Most other killers just get a down there and then.
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@Rizzo said:
I'm sorry but this entire discussion doesn't make sense, you don't want to discuss, you want approval for what you say about pig, you don't want to hear how you could've done things better.
Hah. You don't acknowledge my points at all. I did discuss what was brought to me and I pointed out how it was flawed or wrong. I accepted I made mistakes but pointed out how other killers don't give a flying fig.
You're just bringing your side of things here and saying I have to accept your side through and through.
You don't want to hear how Pig can't do anything against Sprint Burst. You don't want to hear how Ambush only works on paint drinkers or at full walls with no windows. You tell me I should give up at the building without realising how stupid that sounds in a balance forum.
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@Rizzo said:
First of all, i read your post, i watched your video, i analyzed your mistakes and gave you a proper answer, showing where you could have finished the chase.
Let's start from the beginning then:
- you respected a pallet while swinging through it could've given you a hit (also you have Enduring equipped)
- you let the survivor get to the Coal Tower building (and there i would've already left to chase someone else, instead of wasting my time trying to chase a survivor there)
- then we have the LT walls i already talked about
- Bill reaches the shack and you lunged too early, missing him
- Bill goes straight back to the building (second chance to leave the chase and with still 4 gens up)
- Second poorly played LT walls (yes you are holding W, you are in Bloodlust 2 without a single mindgame tried here)
- Finally first hit
- Pallet loop i already discussed (here Bill gets to the pallet only because of Dead Hard, which would've been harder for him to use if you ambushed from the pallet around the loop)
- There we get to the tentative of mindgaming the pallet from the long side of the loop
- Bill reaches the next LT walls and you kept giving him the fast vault on both sides
- Bill ######### up and you downed him.
Is this analysis deep enough?
- Respect? I wasn't near enough to try to respect that early pallet drop
- Alright then I'll just give up whenever a survivor goes to a building, sounds like solid balance, maybe that needs looking at
- Yes the LT I'd shave 20 seconds off of if your plan had worked
- Aye I missed him, no other killer cares though
- Oh no, 4 gens, what if the other survivors go to the building? Whatever will I do? I'm shaking, I have no options
- Ambush from the pallet = walk away, we've covered this plenty of times already, only bad survivors fall for this
- Hmmm, so I shouldn't give him the fast vaults because I want him to go back to the building that makes you quit playing the game? Suuure
Yeah that analysis is deep enough. You're pointing out the building is off limits to M1 Pig. You're displaying inadequate knowledge of Ambush's use.
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@EldritchElise87 said:
See the biggest mistake here, aside from not mindgaming, holding W and generally letting Bill set the route of the chase. (No attempts to cut him off, loop him back around to spaces where hes used pallets etc.) Is at 1:41 you get the hit. You have been chasing for nearly 2 mins here for the first hit, leaving 3 survivors to just do gens in comfort, feeling pretty safe. This is where you should break off and try and put pressure on. The bill is injured, meaning he either needs to break to heal or he is very easy to hear.
The biggest difference between good and bad killers is knowing how to properly apply pressure and when to abandon a chase. If you swap targets it keeps everyone occupied, makes you unpredictable, and puts the pace of the game further in your hands. If you just follow every survivor you meet till they are downed, stuff like this will happen.
There is just so much value in pressure, its the only way to actually win unless survivors are actually braindead.
Saying that, and I mean this genuinley, don't sweat it, it takes a lot of hours to "get" red rank killer chases and how to play them without falling into this trap, hell my first 100 hours were just this most of the time, because playing against badly skilled survivors makes you think it works, when it really dosnt.
I can't not let Bill set the route of the chase. I'm only an M1 115% movespeed killer. You did see the lead he got from the start, no?
Cut him off? Pfff, he's miles ahead in a straight line.
Loop him to used pallets? Pfff, he's used 3 and pushed his nose up at plenty more. Even worse, to herd him to those 3 I'm going to waste more time than just stabbing him on the LT.
Pressure? What pressure? You think the other survivors aren't like him? That they'll sit still whilst I Ambush and follow up?
Abandoning chases doesn't win games unless you can win the next chase you take up. Otherwise you have a whole lot of abandoned chases and no hooks. Am I supposed to accept the Pig is broken and look for weaker prey that may or may not exist or should I complain about balance on the forums?
Winning generally relies on survivor altruism. If they just do gens, you stand no chance.
I doubt there's much to "get" in red rank chases, because I frequently get reds mixed in at green and their methodology is Balanced Landing + map building loop + next door pallets. They're the ones who mind game the least and fall for moonwalking the least. The only killers that catch up are the ones who ignore the chase.
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@rina said:
You literally missed at 0:30 only because you were too impatient. You need to be smart about your chases, not just hold W until you catch up to survivor.
Good point. Counter point, few other decent killers would care at that single mistake.
Trapper would have caught him on the window. Wraith catches up. Billy wrecks shop. Nurse laughs. Michael hits that one. Hag sets traps. Doc would have interrupted under best circumstance mind but we all know how that goes. Huntress laughs. Nightmare waits for his rework. Clown would have slowed him down. Spirit laughs. Legion laughs. Plague will just have to wait for Broken. Ghostface can just wander off to find someone else.
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@Rizzo said:
How can you tell mindgames wouldn't have worked if you just kept holding W?
That Bill is nothing special, even if you try to make him look like a god instead of accepting your evident mistakes.
Saying a killer is bad only because you don't play it properly is just a bit narrow-minded of you.
And again, i suggested you a person that actually knows how to play pig to learn how to properly use her and the only thing you said was insulting survivors from his videos.
Only because you don't know how to play her properly, doesn't make her useless.
Down the garden path we go again.
I pointed out how at the 2 minute. Thanks for pretending I just held W all the time though.
I never said he was a god, perhaps I should make my posts 10 words long so you can read them since I know mods are always busy on forums.
"The Bill didn't appear to do anything wrong nor exploit anything as this is normal gameplay for me as the Pig."
Nice try on misrepresentation though, you'd go far on reddit.
"Play it properly" your example was of someone improperly playing a killer and only getting kills due to survivors improperly playing survivor. I "Play it properly" on the other killers you can see in the video. I'm ######### tier at Billy & Nurse because I don't play them yet I can down survivors for daaays without taking 2 minutes to catch up.
If you think I just insulted those survivors you have once again proven you're not willing to read. Let me copy & paste and we'll go through it again.
His small YouTube stream highlights have trash survivors who cannot hug loop walls to literally save their lives, corridor pallet Ambushes that succeed because the survivor is hiding on a dead end, a hundred Ambushes that don't succeed, Ambushes that are foiled by walking away, and long straight line chases indicative of M1 killers when the survivors want to go to pallets or loops. Those are the kind of survivors Nurse, Huntress and trash region streamers eat in five minutes and he takes over twice that on his highlights.
- There are survivors who cannot push close to the walls of loops, this is improperly playing because a killer can't lose ground and will catch up much like in open ground
- There are pallets dropped in confined corridors (Maccy Storehouse, Autohaven Gas) that are unwinnable for survivors outside of lucky guesses
- Scorpionz attempts plenty of ambushes that fail because he's too far away, the survivor went the other way or the survivor simply walked away
- There are a couple of long straight line chases that would have gone on much further if the survivors were more familiar with map layouts and pallets, despite this they still waste plenty of time for the ambling Scorpionz because they're not running perpendicular like most of the others
You're still avoiding the 2 minutes to sort out a chase problem. Tough luck on that.
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It just seems that if you can't point out why I'm wrong in saying even with your advice there's two sodding minutes of dead air gameplay to get two hits, that you don't want to actually address the problem: Pig's #########.
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Then we'll have to disagree on whether or not he's an observant survivor.
If he knows how to perfectly run routes between everything, and doesn't need half the pallets along the way because he has legs, he doesn't need mind games. The first and only time I got to test him was heading him off at the part you said to crouch at the pallet, if you notice he wasn't fussed on hopping over the pallet into danger so if you're not blind you can clearly see any mind games on his terms won't be won.
Ambush is pretty trash. Your given example had highlights of Ambush only working against trash survivors.
I came here to say Pig's #########, you're the one trying to turn this into an advice thread. You can't give advice on a ######### character to play that is leagues below even the loop vulnerable Ghostface. "Just play something else" doesn't fix the Pig's #########, it just sits her in an unusable corner, hoping one day she'll get a rework that Freddy's getting.
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Ah that's better, some actual analysis.
At 1:12 there's a Maccy building to the left. I'd lose more if that moonwalk failed to catch out the very observant survivor. That also doesn't excuse the 70 seconds wasted thus far on getting zero hits and that would have gained me 20 seconds in the 3 minute chase.
At 2:06 the left side is compromised and the right side is not only long but a half wall, aka visible as soon as I start ambushing. If it succeeds, Dead Hard nullifies it, woop dee doo.
The mind game at 2 minutes wasn't a mind game. He wants to go right, I'm trying to cut him off, if I just do the pallet we're at the LT wall he goes to eventually at 2:30. My main worry was if he actually got to the Maccy building again with the pallets he never used but I suppose that was unfounded since nothing was gained, only time was lost.
To say I'm mindlessly chasing is being very ignorant of the Maccy building next door. I'm trying very hard there to prevent him from getting that way because it's filled with pallets, windows and routes to another LT. A mind game would risk allowing that.
Edit: if I did an Ambush at all three spots, and all three were successful, the second one forcing the Dead Hard, let's be generous on the time cut down, 1 minute. That leaves me with 2 whole minutes of trash gameplay from a trash killer that needs to be changed.
I'm still trying to find a good killer to learn how they manage anything. Most content creators live in regions where red ranks act like my beige ranks.
I'm not going to trawl through Scorpionz' twitch for a game with good survivors since I know streamer libraries are very big. His small YouTube stream highlights have trash survivors who cannot hug loop walls to literally save their lives, corridor pallet Ambushes that succeed because the survivor is hiding on a dead end, a hundred Ambushes that don't succeed, Ambushes that are foiled by walking away, and long straight line chases indicative of M1 killers when the survivors want to go to pallets or loops. Those are the kind of survivors Nurse, Huntress and trash region streamers eat in five minutes and he takes over twice that on his highlights.
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You can actually bog off with your comments about the LT walls too. I spent next to no time on those and got both my hits on LTs.
Nice work, you've told me to hit them elsewhere I need to crouch in the middle of a straight line chase.
What utter tripe you spilled out of your keyboard.
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The crouch takes time, the uncrouch also takes time, they've already run away. "You will easily catch up" may I refer you to the three minute straight line chase in the video.
"If you know how to play them right" uhuh, nice job on proving there is a right way.
"Which I will not bother going into as it is not worth my time because you seem to not want to learn and seem to be intent on believing that you made zero mistakes when you made plenty if you want to learn what you're doing wrong at Jungle Gyms go watch a guide."
Why did you bother commenting on this post if you don't seem to want to teach and you're intent on believing the Pig can play against survivors who play well?
You've pointed out zero mistakes, you believe Ambush works because you play against bad survivors who don't watch you through gaping windows on the other side of walls.
There are zero jungle gym guides for killers, all I can find are old posts from when pallets were a plenty, youtube videos for survivors, and general misery posts about "Just give up the chase"
Don't come back until you actually have something to say.
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Many other pallets? Like say... the one at the start of the video... no that was dropped immediately before I could get to it. Or the shack one... that was also dropped immediately... no you said only dumb survivors fall for mind games there. Oh but there was the third one... that had cover with holes and an LT they could ignore the mind game and run to, or perhaps the many other pallets they hadn't needed to use.
You said likely because it's not guaranteed. It's not the Nurse's blink, it doesn't create invalid options like Hatchets, it doesn't apply pressure like a Chainsaw. The survivor had pristine visibility of me in all of those situations and can always choose to walk away.
Enlighten me on my misplay with some jungle gym footage because you're just talking a load of hot air. Jungle gym = I can see the killer = I can see the Pig crouch = I can just waste their time & effort by walking away to the next loop.
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You can't Ambush the shack, LTs or most map buildings with I'm all Ears. I'm all Ears activates, at most, once every half a generator, and not on your command, it is unreliable and only provides one hit at best. Please do not overestimate its worth.
The survivor was too aware and the windows offer safe visibility of the Pig during Ambush's launch, let alone the lengthy crouch and audio cued charge up.
"Most likely get a down" is also not an answer - the Pig is already RNG dependent. I do not wish to wait to use I'm all Ears to get a "likely" get one in hit in during a 3 gen chase.
Please be aware that survivors worse than this Bill often sit at the window, waiting to see what you will do and that mind games do not work there. I mentioned hay bails because survivors do not need much visibility to know precisely what you're doing.
As a final point, if you find Ambush works in any of the scenarios in the footage, you're facing bad survivors.
Edit: also I answered you in the text body, Pig crouching? Just run away from the mind game, doi, killer = useless.
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@DaS_only said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/579145#Comment_579145
Sorry, but bloodlust exists because of poor map design and not to carry mistakes. At least that was the reason why it got introduced. So your point doesn't stand.
Oh no, I use a feature that kicks in when I fail to hit a survivor, i.e. a mistake, to uplift me into correcting that mistake, I should tell the developers so they can fix it so my point is no longer valid.
If map design was fixed, you wouldn't need a faster Huntress. So obviously she needs more movement or double the bloodlust.
😘
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@Captain_Doomsday said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/579157#Comment_579157
The map shrinking as generators are completed could actually be interesting, but if gens towards the middle of the map just made a big round obstacle, that would only benefit Survivors in most cases.
Mayhap a shrinking map would also be interesting. I can see killers having a field day if they have to search nowhere for survivors though, especially movement and one hit down killers.
I was thinking more about slowly removing pallets, jungle gyms & immersion friendly objects where there are neither uncompleted generators nor one of the three exits nor the basement, since I don't have fun being baited into what will be an adrenaline ended chase after five pallets away from the trigen. Though either your or my idea wouldn't be friendly to any survivors ranks 20-10.
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Her mechanic of being sick isn't too fulfilling.
Bloodsplatter on corrupt purge hits is annoying.
You aren't the one choosing if a survivor is to be made sick or if you're an M1 killer. i.e. short, tight loops, with walls, are your bane (think if you would enjoy Huntress' weakness if you were a normal speed killer with short range hatchets that only work half the time).
She ignores instant heals... until you use corrupt purge... but she can ignore Adrenaline...
Survivors play with her mechanics more than she does, so don't expect to be the one directing the match, or having fun beyond trying to be a Billy with a less cathartic one hit chase.
She has no map presence.
Her worst case scenario in regards to fun is trigen + puking to have an alert similar to Surveillance + immersed survivors who you will never find and who will never do contagious gens. I think that made a match extend by 10 minutes for me.
Her perks are dubiously useful. Presumably Corrupt Intervention helps killers with setup time better than Ruin but isn't as good as a hidden totem, Infectious Fright does help me as Pig and others find it useful on Myers, Dark Devotion removes your ability to guess if DS exists, is situational enough that I never use it outside of coincidence and is useless on stealth or M2 killers if either are your jam.
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@VCDiamondFinder said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/577900#Comment_577900
It's not that hard? As killer as far as I can tell from playing it's a matter of time, you can hate but in my experience pipping is really easy so it wouldn't take that long
As per the wiki (remember each emblem awards 0-4 points each, so there are 16 to get in total):
- Rank 20-17, 9+ emblem points to pip
- Rank 16-13, 10+ points to pip
- Ranks 12-9, 10+ points to pip
- Ranks 8-5, 11+ points to pip
- Ranks 4-1, 12+ points to pip
As you can probably see, it gets harder to continue to pip unless you equip time wasting perks like Ruin, hook multiplying perks like BBQ, or for survivor you pick time wasting perks like Adrenaline or DS.
@GenSim12345 said:
I do not think Killers need a buff exactly. If anything the maps need a major rework, less safe pallets/Infinites if using lithe/Balanced, and more pallets that are not 100% safe and can be mindgamed.
Though if Killers in general would get a buff and not just say 1 killer, i'd say add a new gameplay mechanic. Maybe something that can slow the game down? Something that can net both sides bloodpoints maybe?
I personally wish generators would change the map more to invalidate areas for hiding or looping (it's a completed area - no-one should be there anymore), looping around a single pallet had entity intervention like windows (the game should direct you to be chased across the map otherwise the other survivors are bored) and I wish building windows had limited total uses (e.g. 1 use) because even streamers don't touch the the buildings of ironworks, suffocation pit, torment creek, rancid abattoir and mother's dwelling for how safely they extend chases, with pallets nearby for if the windows do trigger the entity, I know suffocation pit fails to due to its length even as a 115% movement speed killer, which didn't make for a fun game.
I might even prefer a one use building route per map that actually lets you escape the killer because at least then you can go and patrol other generators rather than pretend a 3-5 gen loop is fun for the killer or the survivors who are just holding M1 elsewhere.
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@Avilgus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/577118#Comment_577118
With the same logic the survivors are already rewarded for being hit => 150% speed for 2s .
What you're replying to is childish.
Increased movement for killer failure to make progress already exists with bloodlust, which unless I'm mistaken Huntress still turns off with a single hatchet throw so she gets less compensation for failure than every other killer.
Survivor hit movespeed is for failure to prevent inevitable progress and has more to do with not making them pushovers.
A better counterpoint is that a Huntress would not be rewarded for failure by increasing movement speed after expending hatchets (they aren't given a free hit, sacrifice or mori), they would still require the player to gitgud and M1, however it makes them less of a pushover.
Conversely it may cause balance problems on rewarding the already good if a Huntress' speed is reliant on hatchet count. e.g. she could slug better by not needing to reload to remain a threat, Iridescent head is a worry, how should Infantry Belt/Leather Loop affect her, how fast will she move when charging her last hatchet, how fast will she move in all these scenarios with NOED's speed boost.
Personally I'd rather her to have default speed or a smaller hitbox because either would fix one of my main problems with her which would make the other problem less apparent:
- Short loops, which are common, e.g. shack, prevent her ability's successful use
- Big rock, coldwind trailer or similar tiny, sometimes palletless loops, the kind you defeat a revved leatherface with, stop her from gaining enough sight to bloodlust to negate smaller survivor hitbox tight-cornering advantages, and if a pallet is involved, well, that's 5 gens on an effective infinite if you don't break off
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Care to explain why rather than make an empty response?
@DocOctober said:
Why should you be entitled to an escape in that scenario? You guys underperformed and paid the price for it.
@liquidlight said:
Why should the killer be entitled to a 4k? The last survivor didn't underperform. That's why they're the LAST survivor. They deserve a better chance since the odds are now highly stacked against them.
I never asked to escape. I asked to be able to force the killer's hand, not let them make me do gens, solo, for 7 boring minutes, whilst they don't intervene because they don't want to kill me right now but instead later.
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@wydyadoit said:
Let me explain why this isn't "holding the game hostage"
- you can win the game by attempting to complete generators.
- The killer can't leave the hatch without risking that you jump into the hatch (you can't be grabbed from hopping into the hatch)
- If the killer leaves hatch then you can win the game by jumping into the hatch.
- if the killer downs you without closing the hatch then you can crawl into the hatch
- if the killer closes the hatch then you have exactly 3 minutes to get one of the 2 gates open and escape.
all of these options result in the game ending.
The only option the killer has to prevent you from winning is to wait until you show up at the hatch or give your position away. At which point the killer can then close the hatch and proceed to search for you. This was a nurse so her ability to track an uninjured player is pretty limited.
Holding the game hostage means that no one can win and no one can lose. An example would be if a survivor were to glitch out of a wall and walk around until the killer disconnects or the killer were to do some sort of glitch that permanently prevents players from completing generators/opening the door/opening the hatch. typically speaking only survivors can hold the game hostage because 99.9% of all killer actions cause the game to end eventually.
This wasn't an example of a player cheating or preventing gameplay. This was a killer using the new mechanic to their advantage as it was intended. If the killer gets to the hatch first then the survivors don't get to use it. If the survivor makes it there first then they win. The killer can decide when to close the hatch. There's no rule saying the killer has to close the hatch or move around the map. This was just an example of a survivor that hadn't gotten used to the new mechanic and a nurse that had.
Cough cough.
This is in the OP, please read it, I put effort into it: "I understand it's not holding the game hostage as I could do generators."
You didn't even read the title of this thread: "Delaying" not "Stopping".
I don't know why you're insinuating cheating occurring. I never mentioned cheating. I don't know what you're talking about with rules either.
Please post again when you read the OP rather than pretending you read it.
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@yeet said:
before this change you wouldn't have even had the hatch, stop QQing
So you want the game to end slower when the survivors have lost totally because the killer doesn't want to end it?
@TheAngryPickle said:
Urban Evasion + Left Behind + Poised + Perk of choice. When you're last man standing, if the killer is hatch humping and not closing it, 99% gens, then figure out the shortest path between gens that leads away from the killer, and run from gen to gen, popping it, then head to the outside edge of the map on your way to the next gen, repeat.
Poised prevents scratch marks for 10 seconds after popping a gen. Assuming you can stay out of line of sight of the killer, you can run for 10 seconds for every gen you pop this way, and have Urban as backup. Worst case scenario, you get an EASY 8k objective points, plus however much bold points you get should the killer find you.
The amount of playstyles available to you with perks is huge, you have no excuse. If you want to enjoy the game more, build your perk loadout around countering things you hate the most, and just get better at looping to break dependency on crutch perks like MoM and SC.
I'm a Survivor main and I'm ######### tired of weak ass crybaby survivors who ragequit the first time they're caught. Stop bitching and get better.
You're suggesting I change my entire perk loadout to combat this rare occurrence, the fourth perk would need to be an aura read prevention for Bitter Murmur. This would make every survivor hate me for bringing nothing to the table, those "EASY 8k objective points" would translate to short chases and less than 8k total bloodpoints in most games. You're also suggesting I counter what I hate, so I hate other things than this 1 game in 50, so I don't run your suggested four perks? You're saying I have no excuse yet you give no excuse for offering a perk loadout that does not let me, as you said, enjoy the game, and only affects this specific instance.
I don't know why you're talking about dependencies on MoM & SC, do you see me running those in the video? Did you watch the video?
I also don't know where these crybabies who ragequit the first time they're caught. Could you point out where that happened in the video?
kabare makes a good point about being found very quickly.
Could you tell me why you're answering a complaint about "Killer beat the pants off me, they shouldn't be allowed to do that!" when my complaint is "Killer beat the pants off me, but won't hunt me down or close the hatch, delaying the inevitable by 7 boring minutes."
@TheAngryPickle said:
If Nurse is humping the hatch and not closing it, you have free reign to 99% gens, it's not my fault you're too dumb to figure that out, and I escape roughly 50% of the time when I'm last man standing and the hatch is closed. Git gud.
Thanks for the insult and thanks for not reading the post. Your anecdotal experience is opening a gate, my video above displays me needing to hold M1 at generators for 7 minutes and then travel time between, only to lose because clearly the killer has outmatched everyone already, but doesn't want to beat me because they don't want to until later. I hope you enjoy losing games, then continuing to play them because the other player told you you can't leave until they say so, because I don't.