thedeafmime
thedeafmime
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@Milkymalk said:
To clarify that, it's easier to first look at what the survivors' objective is: To finish gens, open the gates and escape.
The killer's objective is to prevent that. If that means slugging is necessary, it's necessary.
However, it usually is not.
especially in solo que. as no survivor wants to be found anymore. they wont go to gates, do gens, or heal others because hatch is the only hope. slugging doesnt 100% stop that either, just a 95% chance to be abandoned alone with bot survivors.
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@Gh0st2317 said:
Getting pretty exhausting having to deal with certain killers tunneling or slugging, and I'm finding them WAY too often.
I get that it's a supposed 'strat', but at the end of the day it gets tiring with having to deal with it constantly.
It's to the point that I'd rather wait for 2v8 to come out and play that 24/7. That was the only mode enjoyable for both sides imo.
I really hope so soon… This strategy has been the most rewarding concept in the game since the beginning for killers. I wish I knew how to fix it and tell the devs how to do it, but i don't think anyone knows how. It boils down to the question of: what can replace tunneling that is equally as rewarding for killer and keep survivors in the game? A solution that would both sides happy?
I hate being tunneled and hate having to rely on a singular perk that slaps the obsession on me and works only one time in a match — i still question as to why they dont make DS available as many times as DH (deactivating it end game, i understand). I'm only here for the addictive skill checks!
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@Xord said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4006932#Comment_4006932
I mean, I disagree with the solution being Perks (especially perks that are hidden behind a paywall), but yes, this problem is very much clear as day.
They just had released on the PTB a patch that was asked from the community for years and has been promised by the devs over 2 years ago.
And then they refused to make it live because a few killers cried about it. Literally, there were no debates, no polls, no outrage, just a few killers cried about it and the team didn't release it.
Obviously I'm not saying either side should get screwed, I'm saying they should have made small changes and released it live and worked from there. There's no point even thinking about balance before the hard-tunneling meta is adressed.I agree that neither side should be screwed. I’m not asking to go back to the days when all 4 survivors can escape hatch with 1 gen left. That was awful. Now that you say that about polls and debates, I don’t recall seeing anything either.
This is what exactly what I’m arguing for. There needs to be higher rewards for not tunneling! there’s a reason it exists, and those issues need to be addressed. However, while perks are not the greatest solution to tunneling - i think they can be for anti-slugging. I find slugging a better way to play around. Just my opinion on slugging - i don’t care too much about that.
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@PleaseRewind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4006932#Comment_4006932
Unless you have numbers, I would assume the majority of the player base play both roles. Maybe not equally, but still play both roles regularly.
Ok, but what about the rest of the post?
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@SpringMyTrap said:
I dont think I need to elaborate on what EXACTLY is wrong with her power. There is a lot. Most of that is fundamental that cant be solved with nerfs.
If you are here, you most definitely experienced how Krasue feels in chase. Either as or against, it doesnt matter, you can tell how cheap and uninteractive, yet brutally efficient she is.
They buffed her because they got stats and feedback from PTB with the "systems" that eradicated the necessary evil of this game's design that bottlenecks killers SPECIFICALLY from being like Krasue.
She is a killer made for an average casual dad with twenty children working 25/8 shifts killer player who is expected to get their 60% killrate, but having to win double-triple amount of chases for that. What did devs said on the stream? Oh yea, she is meant to be "scary hunter hunting survivors" or some other generic stuff that Im perceiving as "we went extra mile out of our way to make new killer unfair in chase because it's not fun for casual killers to be ran for 5 gens".
Krasue is COMPLETELY out of balance in the game design where killers have enough strategic agency to threaten survivors with tunnelling or slugging, moreover, Krasue's main (and basically only because everything else just doesnt work well) counterplay is taking hits, thus inadvertently encouraging killer to slug which doesnt work when killer isn't massively punished for doing so.
Designing / balancing killers the way Krasue was is a HORRIBLE mistake we're seeing play out LIVE.
Dead by Daylight isn't Alien Isolation or any other "scary" PvE horror game. The killer is NOT MEANT to be a juggernaut that instakills you on sight unless you press a button and waste a very VERY finite resource. The killer is NOT meant to be a dummy that plays "fair" giving players chances or being FORCED into giving them by some weird complex set of guardrails that tell you that you arent actually allowed to chase THIS survivor or you MUST pick THAT survivor or get massively penalized / give them massive buff.
If the game goes this direction, it turns into PvE like that however, except it would lack all the story and atmosphere that make or break such games.
All that would be left is a feeling of frustration of helplessness that you can't do anything the moment killer spots you and that your fast chases mean nothing because you cant stop gens.
Let's not break the game over the knee just so that killers like that can be "balanced". Let's not break what is already working with ACTUALLY fun and interactive killers like Wesker, Springtrap or Unknown. THESE are the killers that offer the best for both casual and competitive playerbase and they should be what the game is balanced around.
It’s clear that Krasue was made to counter the “bully squads” or high MMR SWFs. What about the solo que players?
This killer has ALOT of tweaks that need to be made. Mainly cooldowns just need to be added to:
-when she switches form,
-m1 after m2,
-after she uses her dash in head form,
-and probably more.
Another suggestion would be to make the auto-aim on her spit as an iridescent add-on instead of base kit (or just remove auto aim altogether ← preferred). The only way to make chases longer is to not get infected! Once infected, this killer can chase in head form for guaranteed hits, since she does not apply to the majority of killers when it comes to hugging objects. There are no 50/50s, 50/50s only waste another second before being downed — making these no longer 50/50s.
Also, Why is it that she can now put a survivor into injured state when carrying a survivor in head form instead of applying leech?! Makes no sense as she can only apply her infection to a healthy survivor. If that were to change, Krasue can easily counter this by switching forms to carry a survivor in her body, easy.
Another change to make would be to NOT make the mushroom cure last 7-10 business days. An add-on could make it last longer, or the cure can last longer while in chase, but not while a survivor is off in the corner to grab a mushroom then hopping onto a gen while the killer is busy on the other side of the map - only to to be yanked by Krasue in head form with a free injury hit. So silly and unnecessary.
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This killer has ALOT of tweaks that need to be made. Mainly cooldowns just need to be added to:
-when she switches form,
-m1 after m2,
-after she uses her dash in head form,
-and probably more.
Another suggestion would be to make the auto-aim on her spit as an iridescent add-on instead of base kit (or just remove auto aim altogether ← preferred). The only way to make chases longer is to not get infected! Once infected, this killer can chase in head form for guaranteed hits, since she does not apply to the majority of killers when it comes to hugging objects. There are no 50/50s, 50/50s only waste another second before being downed — making these no longer 50/50s.
Also, Why is it that she can now put a survivor into injured state when carrying a survivor in head form instead of applying leech?! Makes no sense as she can only apply her infection to a healthy survivor. If that were to change, Krasue can easily counter this by switching forms to carry a survivor in her body, easy.
Another change to make would be to NOT make the mushroom cure last 7-10 business days. An add-on could make it last longer, or the cure can last longer while in chase, but not while a survivor is off in the corner to grab a mushroom then hopping onto a gen while the killer is busy on the other side of the map. So silly and unnecessary.
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@FunkadelicPeach said:
Survivors vs Killer. 4v1. always 4x more people than killer experiencing any given match. THESE are the players you should be catering to. The people who experience MORE of the game should be getting the 60% escape rate. The justification I have seen around the 40/60 killrate-vs-escaperate is laughable, at best. "We want the killer to seem powerful and scary"... Then make the game more scary and fun? Don't balance the game to be less than 50/50? Why is it that the majority of the player base is experiencing losses more often than wins? This makes no sense to me. This is the only game I've ever experienced where I have put in 1000 hours and my win rate is still below 50% (and will remain so, because the developers coddle the killer player base). Please consider balancing for your majority player base and get those numbers closer to 60/40. If that is unacceptable and you still need to coddle to solo-players with a power complex, then at least make it 50/50.
This game has gotten exponentially less fun for survivors, unless you are coordinated and playing with a team. I have been playing for roughly 2 years and I am so sick of each update making killers more and more powerful with no addressing issues that have been plaguing the game forever. Gen rushing, tunneling, map balance, vault speed, heal speed, slugging, etc etc etc. Not addressing core issues like slugging and tunneling (and even hook camping, still (proxy)) seems to be blatant disregard for the fun and majority of the player base. These are issues that could be at least temporarily resolved with simply adjusting some numbers (such as base kit BT, Base kit unbreakable, and base kit kindred).
These issues are annoying enough for seasoned players, but the fact that perks like bond, unbreakable, and windows of opportunity are not base kit is horrible for new players as well. The amount of times I have tried to introduce a friend to this game only to play for OVER an hour and not get a single escape is not acceptable.
The game has gotten so unbelievably frustrating to play for survivors (but even killers, from some community members, I hear), especially with this new update. Weaving spiders is a joke and a horrible perk design, the double pallets and main building on the new map are horrible, and the new killer is incredibly overpowered (speed, teleporting, etc).
I know for a fact this post will be called out by a bunch of mid-ladder killers who feel the need to "win" every game. 1 kill and 2 kills isn't enough. Gotta get all 4 and then leave the last guy to bleed out on the ground while tea-bagging him... That's the thing, right??? Look - When the killer gets to "win", it's dynamic. It's subjective. You could feel good about getting 1 kill if it was a guy who was really good in chase. But with survivors, every person who doesn't get to escape is a real player who is experiencing a "loss".
The inability to guarantee yourself an escape no matter how good you are vs the ability to get at least 1 kill no matter how BAD you are, is stark and easily observed.
The easiest thing to speak to this is how decent killer players can get 50+ 3k/4k streaks in a row, but there is no way to guarantee a 50 (or even 10) streak with 3+ survivors escaping, even with SWF.
Fix this! Most killer players seem to have an ego and power complex issue. I feel as though they are likely being coddled simply because they are the "powerful" presence in the community. They are the ones who have (more of) the ability to be toxic, dictate the sportsmanship of the game, and be a demanding, loud, and uncooperative presence on the forums.
I totally understand this post has a lot of "us vs them" language, and a lot of visible frustration. While some of this may be me just venting my feelings and frustration as someone who has devoted a ton of time to this game, I do believe some of it is also a fair critique. I hope readers can pick and choose what they believe to be a valid critique rather than writing off the whole post/discussion simply because I've been the victim of some really horrible games tonight, and I'm frustrated with the game, lol.
This is still relevant! BHVR is still catering to the killer base, and has officially made it to where the majority of their player base (which are survivors) still have no perk to counter tunneling — unless you count that ONE that slaps the obsession on them and can only be used once the entire match? I still don't understand why we cannot use DS as many times as DH.
Usually new killers take some time to learn how to counter and such, but Ghoul has sparked the end of solo que for me. I fear that the Krasue will be the same for others — Why do we need another S-tier killer when we have neglected killers ready to be fixed up? Why not do an overhaul and make survivors unique as well?
Another idea is to create an emphasis (or a reward) on any kill rather than glorifying the 4k.
+Make it more rewarding to get hook states rather than tunneling out one person. +Make teamwork more rewarding than hiding out for hatch.
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I like the no collision idea. Why not go further with anti slugging and create an add-on that consumes the medkit on use to get yourself up? This could also be an additional effect with syringe. Killers are able to play around this to either use perks like Franklin's, accept that its a one time use, or not slug. I loved the anti-slugging from the PTB — primarily the immediate recovering and crawl.
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In rebuttal to the "jUsT pLay Anti-TUnnEl pErks" argument— But what if the survivor wants to run different perks? There should be more options outside of 2-3 perks to play, without one of them slapping the obsession on themselves. This playstyle/strategy encourages future survivors to play selfishly — stealth, hiding, etc. and forcing the veterans (if there are any still around…) to carry — which is not always fun.
I like your suggestions and I do agree that there is absolutely nothing BHVR can do to get rid of tunneling, but they can also take away bloodpoints for killers that do double hook and extra points for hooking a new survivor in between. It is de-moralizing to experience only 3 minutes of gameplay with only a few thousand of points to show for it when the killer has way more points — thus being rewarded for this sweaty gameplay style. This rule could be taken away if its down to 2-1 gens.
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I especially like your suggestion of a pinging system. This would also help deaf and hard-of-hearing players if someone is able to hear footsteps of a stealthy killer - "Killer Nearby". I also agree with the above comment on voicechat, as that would be a disaster.
In addition to your idea under the "Solo Survivor" list, lets place the icons of "exposed", "hemorrhage", etc. next to the survivor's portrait. This could add some communication that some players know about while others do not - like Friends 'Til the End or Sloppy Butcher.
I also liked your suggestion on longer hook times for those that are getting tunneled. The title for "This is Not Happening" is also very appropriate, haha. Change the perk entirely — "Spine Chill" could be in thrown in there as well. I don't see anyone using them.
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@lachenstars said:
I'm sure the Ghoul is super fun to play, and not just because they can consistently secure 4Ks. I hope he can be brought in line with other top killers without losing what makes him enjoyable.
My understanding is that his power is hitscan, so if you click with the icon, you get the hit, regardless of how far the survivor can run by the time the Ghoul animation plays. It feels bad. I would love if it felt like Deathslinger where a survivor can dodge and get behind cover. Right now I don't see much possible counterplay to avoid getting hit if the Ghoul is close enough (within like 32m) and knows how to use their power. Once injured you can run loops normally but the Ghoul has good ways to use their power to bodyblock and fast vault so they are by no means an M1 killer with no antiloop.
The mobility is insane. With VERY generous autoaim AND frankly, an unacceptable range, it's not uncommon to see an injury within 10-15 seconds of a match. Maybe start the game with his power on cooldown, like Sadako can't teleport to TVs as soon as the match begins.
The more I see the Ghoul played, the stronger I feel his entire kit is. Done correctly they can vault after survivors about as fast as Wesker (idk the numbers, but it's very strong). They have time to kick gens and then catch up to chase, better than most other killers. And as it stands, I don't see why any Ghoul wouldn't proxy camp or tunnel because it's so easy. DH can't be used while in deep wound and DS is about as effective against the Ghoul as against Nurse, Blight, or Spirit.
- Reduce the autoaim. Good players mention that they hit survivors even when they would rather use their power for mobility to get the bodyblock. It's too generous. It doesn't have to be a skillshot but I've seen some questionable clips on Twitch and YT.
- Reduce the range. Maybe increase the CD or even only give them 2 stacks basekit. Right now they are like Wesker on steroids.
- Lengthen recovery time after using their power. It's good that it can't down, but unlike Legion (for example) you can use the power again to catch up and bodyblock very quickly. Just tone it down a bit.
If they fix the animation and increase the opportunities for counterplay a bit, the Ghoul will feel much more fair.
I like your suggestions. One more thing to add, GET RID OF THE MECHANIC OF SURVIVOR STOPPING. It's plain choppy and has no purpose. Doesnt matter about distance, there's an extra sling shot for the ghoul after their free hit.
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@TerraEsram said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3911724#Comment_3911724
The fact that people don't complain against Nurse or Blight, EXCEPT the fresh new player…
Nurse and Blight are very strong, but
You can fight back as survivor
And the two (survivor agisnt them and these two killer) have a High skill ceilling
Ghoul, is just blatant stupidYes. At least we don't have to deal with a free hit (behind walls, even) and 2-3 free sling shots across the map. They obviously realize that more players are playing Ghoul instead of going against him. I see streamers and friends snack while in chase when playing the Ghoul. I agree, it is just blatantly stupid.
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@angrychuck said:
I'm not sure if you are aware but it takes more than a week to put through these types of changes.
True… however, what about the beta testing? Was it for nothing? Or to collect data on how they think sales will go after negative feedback except for those that play him?
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Cool. A free hit for a killer that can slingshot across the map. And an add-on that makes survivors scream in lockers. All counter videos of the ghoul are just looping ones where the ghoul has yet figured out how to block paths. MFT and Hope? Are you kidding me - what is 3%-10% haste going to do versus a mile long slingshot?
I powered through the first two days against ghoul in matches and it’s becoming unbearable. I know a lot of people have quit survivor to play killer for a while. Why? They want to win! And the ghoul is the winning side. Please add cooldowns, take away power at beginning of game, do a build up like plague or something. And another thing, why are survivors stopped? The mechanic is so clunky. Why are survivor not hit in a more similar way as legion? I could go on about this forever, and I know there are others out there who feel the same. Never complained about a killer before this.
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I cannot be without dark sense, kindred, or spine chill. (2 out of 3) Being deaf, I rely on those to help me keep an eye on the killer since I cannot rely on the heartbeat. Helps me find out which way to run after a gen or to unhook a survivor. Otherwise I take forever looking around 😅