lachenstars
lachenstars
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Regardless of how you think the Ghoul does in good looping tiles, I really feel like they are simply just in chase a higher percentage of time during any given match than almost any killer. Up there with Nurse and Blight IMO (and they are both some of the hardest killers to learn to play well). Throw almost any info perk on (or one of several add-ons) and unless survivors play incredibly safely (slow and stealthy) they will never have any meaningful downtime. Map mobility is a strong point of every top tier killer.
Ok, so the killer power is designed for very easy first hits with deep wound. Legion does the same and is one of the weakest killers. But the Ghoul can use their power in chase to bodyblock more effectively than Legion, because the cooldown on the power is shorter (Legion Fatigue is 2.5 seconds. The Ghoul's Leap Vault cooldown is 1.25 seconds, and the Leap cooldown when canceled or when they run out of tokens is 2 seconds.) Often I find that by the time I can reach the first guy to get the unhook - assuming the Ghoul isn't just proxy camping - they are 100% in the next chase and have gotten that very easy first hit.
It seems to me that leaving your generator well in advance and hiding is the only way to not get hit basically for free. If you aren't behind a wall, you're going to get tagged. And the Ghoul can still swing around the wall faster than you can usually run around to put the wall between you, especially on outdoor maps.
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Maybe the relevant question is whether a Fog Whisperer wanted to be considered as a consultant or not. I'm not trying to be offended on anyone's behalf. It just rubs me the wrong way, and I question the efficacy of this newly public group, when a similar group of consultants let things like Skull Merchant and the Twins rework go to PTB. I say "let things go through" when in reality maybe they were just ignored.
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I am quite happy with these revisions. They walked back the Condemn CD, and locking in 3 stacks makes hooking worth it in a lot of situations, I feel. And let's be real, Sadako will always be strong against newer teams, just like Cenobite and Pig. But locking in 4 stacks against strong teams that know the simple counterplay is unlikely to happen. 3 stacks is enough to allow some wiggle room for yourself by making the margins for error tighter for that survivor.
The movement buffs are nice quality of life changes and I hope they feel impactful. I'd love 1 more good add on or a buff to Telephone or maybe VCR (my understanding is that the fake projection is very obvious) and maybe, one day, a better TV spawn algorithm. Iri Tape doesn't feel worth an Iri add on rarity, and could be swapped with a new one. Oh, and I think survivors seeing TV auras at 16m is a little much. Make it 8-12m, and it could be a good add on if it is even smaller.
Thank you for listening, BHVR! I know there's lots of complaints and I'm sure a lot of nonsense, but I think you found good feedback and made appropriate adjustments, in a fast window. Good luck with your Twins and Freddy reworks.
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Good news everyone! There's a screenshot of a response from Peanits on Reddit.
I can't post the link here apparently but I can summarize. I don't use Reddit so idk if you can search for the post for verification, but it was posted yesterday by a user Electronic-Ad9758.
What's changing in the next patch:
- Removed the Condemned cooldown
- Increased the number of Condemned stacks that lock in when a Survivor is hooked to 3 (was 2)
- Increased the Projection movement speed boost duration to 2 seconds (was 1.5)
- Increased movement speed while Manifesting to 4 m/s (was 3.68)
If this is true, I am VERY pleased. Basically 1 and 2 are what everyone wanted. Extra boost duration is like basekit Bloody Fingernails (50% of 1.5 is 2.25 seconds) and I'm curious if they adjust Bloody Fingernails or if it would bring the boost duration to 3 seconds.
Also, the wiki hasn't been adjusted since the 2nd rework but it had speed while manifesting as 4 m/s. Maybe it was wrong or they had nerfed it to 3.68 m/s and are setting it back to 4. I'm hoping it'll feel better, regardless.
I don't think I can complain anymore if / when these go live. But there are 3 small things I'd like addressed in the future:
- Make the TV spawn algorithm better. I'm sure this is not an easy fix so I'm not holding my breath, but it'd make some maps much better for Sadako.
- Turn the new Iri Tape like a green and make another Iri Tape add on. There are tons of great suggestions, and I certainly would love to hear that serotonin inducing BONG sound. Making VCR show fake projections to make it more convincing or buffing Telephone numbers would be very welcome, too. Her add ons are kinda weak and I'd love some more variety.
- Maybe survivors can only see the auras of powered TVs from 8-12 meters instead of 16 m. This could also be an add on.
That's basically everything I could want from Sadako. Locking in 3 stacks of Condemn makes hooking more beneficial for late game Condemn pressure. Survivors can be easily punished by multiple teleports if they don't pick up Tapes, as they should be. The counterplay remains simple and easy, but Sadako should have an easier time getting enough Condemn pressure to slow the game down. The movement speed buffs are welcome quality of life changes.
I think our feedback was heard this time, and I will give BHVR a lot of credit when these changes come through. I know the team is too small and there are simply too many killers and perks to balance DBD correctly - slowly and methodically. I'm happy they took another look at Sadako and even when they nerfed her afterwards, they are (hopefully) quickly fixing her again. I wish all the best for their planned Twins and Freddy reworks.
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She feels weak. Condemn is very easy to cleanse and she's still a basic M1 Killer. Her stealth is not good, especially since survivors can see TV auras. She's a step up from the original version of Sadako, but no longer can reset TVs with Iri Tape. Those nerfs from the PTB may not be gamechanging, but they really throttle her ability to spread Condemn. They were unnecessary and while it's not the end of the world, I think the backlash is fine because how else will the Devs know she feels bad to play? But it was odd that they saw all the positive feedback from the PTB and decided to nerf her.
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The OG Tape Editing Deck was front loading the match, assuming you could capitalize early. If you hard commit in order to deny the turn in, the passive Condemn can lead to an early mori. On Live, it strikes me as decent if you can get a faster 2 stacks from an early hit than from multiple teleports. Plus, the survivors aren't able to turn off any TV right as they turn on b/c they already have a Target TV to go to. On the PTB Tape Editing Deck seemed the weakest. No passive Condemn, and no 2 stacks when you win a chase.
2 Blindness add-ons are terrible but I'd keep Yoichi's Fishing Net, because you have the possibility of locking in permanent blindness. It's worse with a 2 stack maximum lock in, though. Has slightly better potential than Sea Soaked Cloth, though, IMO.
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whoops double post b/c of the merge.
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I figure the window where the Devs would seriously consider any more significant changes for Sadako is rapidly closing, so why not just suggest more ideas for that 1 additional good add-on that would help her tremendously.
The nerfs to the PTB version need to be reverted. Capping Condemn stacks that are locked in with each hook at 3 is reasonable, but 2 stacks is not a lot of extra incentive to hook for a Killer that struggles in chase. A 10 second cooldown to when her projection spreads Condemn significantly slows down the rate Sadako can apply her Condemn pressure, particularly when the counterplay for survivors has never been easier.
I was thrilled by the PTB and only have 1 thought about her kit besides not nerfing it. If the new Ring Drawing effect was basekit (survivors hooked that are holding a Tape have their Tape destroyed and a stack of Condemn is spread to their teammates) that would be a big bonus for hooking, even if locked in stacks of Condemn are limited. That would free up an add-on slot for... something good that we might brainstorm right here!
A Tier add-ons: Iri Remote Control.
B Tier add-ons: Distorted Photo, Ring Drawing.
C Tier add-ons: Bloody Fingernails, Old Newspaper, Yoichi's Fishing Net.
D Tier add-ons: Well Water, Rickety Pinwheel, Mother's Comb, Tape Editing Deck, Cabin Sign.
Telephone would be worth running if the hindered or the range were stronger. VCR could also work if it were more convincing like Freddy's add-on. Well Stone could be buffed to 10 seconds CD reduction when survivors turn off TVs.
I feel like TV auras are too strong to leave basekit if they keep a 10 second CD on projection spreading Condemn, so remove them or give them a smaller 6-8 m range. But if kept, an add-on could hide the auras of TVs and Tape Editing Deck could use a buff, so it might work there.
Personally I think Sadako's stealth is a little underrated, but an add-on to lean into that would be great. Remove her lullaby and make projection silent.
Give us back that serotonin inducing 'bong' sound from old Iri Tape. Make it reveal a survivor's target TV when you hit someone holding a Tape. That's strong enough to be considered an Iri. Alternately, the TV the survivor turned off could turn back on.
Considering how easy it is to turn off a TV, would an add-on that exhausts while in range, like Rickety Pinwheel, be too strong? It might even prove useful in chase if Sadako can force survivors to path close to a powered TV. Conversely, survivors could be exhausted for 30 seconds after picking up a Tape. This would give Sadako enough time to find the survivor and take advantage.
A small buff to vaulting might help her in chase. It could be tied to how many TVs are powered or how many survivors are holding Tapes. So when survivors limit her power to project to a TV, Sadako can get something in return. Maybe vault speed is 2.5% faster for every survivor holding a Tape. Noticeable but not strong by itself, but it would stack with Bamboozle or Fire Up.
When all TVs are turned off, all TVs are reset and turn back on. This effect can only trigger every 2-3 minutes.
Again, the PTB was a 9.5 / 10. The nerfs should not go through. The new Iri Tape could be a Yellow meme add-on and one of these could be a strong additional option for Sadako. Going back through her add-ons, Sadako has a few options at least, but I thought I'd toss out one last Hail Mary for a stronger new Iri Tape.
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I'm mostly confused what feedback the Devs got that made them think that those nerfs were necessary. They got clear feedback that Blight's new add-ons were actually a buff instead of the intended nerf, and then reacted accordingly. I also saw tons of positive feedback about Sadako's changes, where many long time mains acknowledged that it is overall a nerf but we were happy that some of the skill expression was back. While I'm glad they have stated she'll get more changes in the near future, I think the backlash was warranted and the simple solution would be to revert the changes from the PTB or at least explain why they thought they are necessary.
Calling Sadako players that intentionally teleport to other TVs in order to best build Condemn pressure cheeky is cute, but why is that problematic gameplay when it's also easily counterable and is a strategic choice that could backfire? The goal is high killer power interaction where there's a separate struggle where Sadako tries to give more stacks of Condemn than the survivors can cleanse. It felt very good and IMO fair during my time testing on the PTB. For real data, they could and should have let it go live as is, and then maybe they could justify these nerfs.
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I figure the window where the Devs would seriously consider any more significant changes for Sadako is rapidly closing, so why not just suggest more ideas for that 1 additional good add-on that would help her tremendously.
The nerfs to the PTB version need to be reverted. Capping Condemn stacks that are locked in with each hook at 3 is reasonable, but 2 stacks is not a lot of extra incentive to hook for a Killer that struggles in chase. A 10 second cooldown to when her projection spreads Condemn significantly slows down the rate Sadako can apply her Condemn pressure, particularly when the counterplay for survivors has never been easier.
I was thrilled by the PTB and only have 1 thought about her kit besides not nerfing it. If the new Ring Drawing effect was basekit (survivors hooked that are holding a Tape have their Tape destroyed and a stack of Condemn is spread to their teammates) that would be a big bonus for hooking, even if locked in stacks of Condemn are limited. That would free up an add-on slot for... something good that we might brainstorm right here!
A Tier add-ons: Iri Remote Control.
B Tier add-ons: Distorted Photo, Ring Drawing.
C Tier add-ons: Bloody Fingernails, Old Newspaper, Yoichi's Fishing Net.
D Tier add-ons: Well Water, Rickety Pinwheel, Mother's Comb, Tape Editing Deck, Cabin Sign.
Telephone would be worth running if the hindered or the range were stronger. VCR could also work if it were more convincing like Freddy's add-on. Well Stone could be buffed to 10 seconds CD reduction when survivors turn off TVs.
I feel like TV auras are too strong to leave basekit if they keep a 10 second CD on projection spreading Condemn, so remove them or give them a smaller 6-8 m range. But if kept, an add-on could hide the auras of TVs and Tape Editing Deck could use a buff, so it might work there.
Personally I think Sadako's stealth is a little underrated, but an add-on to lean into that would be great. Remove her lullaby and make projection silent.
Give us back that serotonin inducing 'bong' sound from old Iri Tape. Make it reveal a survivor's target TV when you hit someone holding a Tape. That's strong enough to be considered an Iri. Alternately, the TV the survivor turned off could turn back on.
Considering how easy it is to turn off a TV, would an add-on that exhausts while in range, like Rickety Pinwheel, be too strong? It might even prove useful in chase if Sadako can force survivors to path close to a powered TV. Conversely, survivors could be exhausted for 30 seconds after picking up a Tape. This would give Sadako enough time to find the survivor and take advantage.
A small buff to vaulting might help her in chase. It could be tied to how many TVs are powered or how many survivors are holding Tapes. So when survivors limit her power to project to a TV, Sadako can get something in return. Maybe vault speed is 2.5% faster for every survivor holding a Tape. Noticeable but not strong by itself, but it would stack with Bamboozle or Fire Up.
When all TVs are turned off, all TVs are reset and turn back on. This effect can only trigger every 2-3 minutes.
Again, the PTB was a 9.5 / 10. The nerfs should not go through. The new Iri Tape could be a Yellow meme add-on and one of these could be a strong additional option for Sadako. Going back through her add-ons, Sadako has a few options at least, but I thought I'd toss out one last Hail Mary for a stronger new Iri Tape.
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I don't understand how the Devs could have interpreted what I saw as an OUTBURST of positive feedback from the community - former Sadako mains were rejoicing and survivors had fun and liked the rework - as the need to needlessly nerf her. I'm not sure what her numbers on Live servers are now, but this rework is definitely a nerf, but it brought back a sense of her old playstyle with significant buffs. It was a fantastic compromise. My comparison forum post has vanished without explaination, but I saw plenty of posts here praising BHVR about the PTB.
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Locking in Condemn stacks by hooking was never something I considered, and I came up with some pretty inventive add on suggestions. It's a very clever solution that helps justify taking the time to hook someone, but 2 is just too low of a number. I'll still take it, but 3 stacks would in no way be too strong, IMO. Sadako still has to win 2 chases for each hook. The whole point of Condemnation is that if you are skillful enough you can fulfill an alternate win condition that reduces the number of chases you have to win. The trade off is that she is abysmal in chase, plus survivors can easily cleanse. Ideally the Killer power interaction should be high, limiting Sadako's projection possibilities and protecting from spam teleports but requiring a Tape run several times per match. Good Sadako players should naturally spread Condemn on several survivors while defending gens and winning some chases. The balance felt great on the PTB. These nerfs shift it so Sadako has to work harder / it takes longer for her to build Condemn while cleansing remains very straightforward.
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I keep thinking it's not that bad. But then I see others give reasons why she might be as bad or worse than Sadako on release.
The Devs are TERRIFIED that Sadako could possibly get Condemn kills without effectively throwing the game to do so. I understand why some want to effectively make it like a Pyramid Head mori and buff her in other ways. But I was always drawn to her unique alternate win condition.
Making her Condemn playstyle weaker really makes her just a M1 Killer with great mobility and some limited stealth, with a slow down mechanic that's much easier to deal with than Pig or Cenobite.
[I thought locking in permanent Yoichi's Fishing Net blindness was really cool. I don't typically run builds that benefit from blindness, but it was a legit option. Definitely not strong enough to warrant any balance attention, and I doubt it was on their radar. And it's an add on that could be strong, but also could be useless, depending on how Sadako plays.]
But stick with the full stacks, please. The fractions were annoying, at least to me.
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One more add-on idea! After the initial explosion reveal of their target TV, survivor's cannot see the aura of their target TV outside of 8-16m. This reminds me of a Pig add-on where you can't see the box auras, I believe.
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Devs are doing something. Probably. I hope they can do something to curb the rampant cheater epidemic.
Whenever they get to buffing Sadako, I hope they are creative.
They could make add-ons that give status effects (Oblivious, Hemorrhage, Blindness, Exhausted) when hit or when they gain a stack of condemn.
I think a cool add-on would give her info to help her always be interrupting survivors. Like seeing auras of those 32m away from a TV, if no one is within condemnation range. This could be on a 60s CD, but that way she could make use out of TVs near gens that are completed, where survivors are not likely to be near.
If the obsession is holding a tape, those around her (within 16m) gain passive stacks on condemnation. Very specific so I don't think it'd be too strong, but something like this would help spread condemnation.
It might be abusable but an add-on to reduce the time where passive condemnation stops building after you leave chase.
An add-on to increase the time it takes to interact with TVs. It could also give a notification.
Or if you are within maybe 8m of a teammate who is interacting with a TV, you gain a stack. This helps when a teammate turns off a target TV so someone can turn in safely and cannot be interrupted by a teleport.
It would be crazy cool if when you demanifest in chase, a second 'illusion' Sadako is spotted nearby when you remanifest. I assume they would be similar to Doctor illusions which are easy to spot, but this could improve her mindgames at loops fairly significantly when timed correctly.
Would it be broken to have periods of time when players' condemnation stacks are hidden from them? Or maybe you can only see your own stacks of condemnation until a teammate is fully condemned. Of maybe there's a delay from when you gain a stack of condemnation and when it is shown on the UI.
Basekit I'd love it if the UI didn't give away that Sadako is the Killer, at least until her TVs turn on for the first time.
An exhaustion version of Rickety Pinwheel / Sea-soaked Cloth would be very strong. Maybe the effect wouldn't linger like the existing add-ons, but if a survivor runs close to a powered TV in chase, becoming exhausted might make a big difference. It would be about as strong as Fearmonger, but you could turn the TV off to disable it.
Not to be too similar to Wraith, but I wouldn't say no to an aura reading add-on for when you are demanifested. Buffing the demanifested state would be a fair way to increase her power.
I've never seen the movie(s) but would a madness type effect be lore appropriate? Maybe make skill checks a little harder when you have multiple stacks of condemnation. Impossible skill check builds are not good on Sadako b/c she's basically a stealth Killer, but it could synergize with her Merciless Storm perk and Huntress Lullaby.
I don't mind having a lullaby as loud gens usually cover it up, but maybe if you are fully condemned you no longer hear it, making it a little scarier to reach 7 stacks. People think she needs some kind of exposed add-on but that could only work if the survivor is NOT fully condemned.
I think having an add-on to change a person's target TV when you hit them while they are holding a tape would be cool. Might be risky for her b/c it's better that she knows which TV you are going for, but it wastes more of the survivor's time having to cross the map again.
Another way to make her teleportation power available more often would be to reduce the TV CDs each time a generator is completed. Much like Freddy her power is a little less useful when generators are done.
There are so many things they could do to make Sadako a more fun Killer to play and go against. Give her ways to reduce her TV CDs so she can maintain mapwide pressure. Encourage survivors to interact with TVs as a secondary objective that will keep them off gens. Let her gain buffs depending on if she is demanifested, how many TVs are powered, and / or how many stacks of condemnation there are. She can remain a weak M1 Killer in chase if she can truly shine as a hit-and-run Killer with her Condemnation mechanic being threatening enough that survivors need to actually go out of their way to manage it.
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I think people conflate Killers who slug to watch a team bleed out for 4 minutes with Killers who feel like they don't have time to hook so they move on. 100% would rather be slugged than face camped, but if the Killer camps my body on the ground it's basically the same thing, right?
Maybe I'll edit my original post but let me be clear, I don't condone this playstyle but I'm not complaining about it. It's just a trend I've seen pop up. Whether you think it's a problem or not I think everyone can agree that Sadako needs buffs badly.
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I honestly haven't gone against it myself, and I think that there are not that many Sadako players out there compared to other Killers like Legion. I find Legion rather annoying when, in solo q, I'm just not far enough away from my teammates. Any playstyle can be done well or poorly. Like any strategy it's more effective against solo q teams, but no matter what, having a style that revolves around slugging is not going to be fun as the survivors. It's unfortunate to hear of Sadakos trying this strategy but not understanding how it works, like slugging those with no stacks of condemnation. Some people hear of a good way to easily make Sadako more viable and they jump at it.
I think it works because unless you have Exponential (you don't really want to waste your Unbreakable, but you could) one of your teammates has to gain a stack when picking up. It just makes them more likely to have to do a Tape run and that wastes some time and potentially they get found and cut off. It's an alternative way to play, and a lot of times you probably don't come out ahead by enough to make a difference.
I'd like Sadako to get buffs that are much more effective than this slugging strategy.
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Personally just make DS 5 seconds again. Basekit BT being 10 seconds is pretty solid. I just find DS underwhelming unless I can position myself next to a strong loop. You could disable Killer powers as well, which would hurt the top Killers like Nurse more than M1 Killers like Trapper.
I don't see as much Reassurance as I thought I would (I wish you could use it above basement, but I guess it's good for Killers to have a strong place) and honestly Kinship is underrated, but best used in a SWF. Off the Record is really the best anti-tunnel perk IMO.
In terms of Killers who camp / tunnel because it's effective, if they read the situation correctly camping / tunneling is not the best option. I believe Killers think they can get away with it more because DS isn't perceived as strong enough so they don't respect it anymore. But it's understandable to think that getting a survivor out of the game as quickly as possible is the best way to control the game and ultimately get more kills. Because it is. The question is how quickly that can be accomplished and what you give up in terms of opportunity cost. If it looks like tunneling / camping won't cost you multiple gens, then it's likely the right choice.
Then there are Killers who will just facecamp even when it's clear they are throwing the game. I don't know how the game could distinguish between the two, but it's just unfortunate for that first survivor. Hopefully his team can punish that behavior, but usually these Killers don't even care. I don't think BHVR could nerf camping hard enough, but slowing down hook progress couldn't hurt IMO.
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I agree that a form of Kindred would significantly close the gap between Solo Q and SWF. It's obviously worth a perk slot and I think it's pretty popular. I don't think it was in the top 3 most used survivor perks but I imagine it's up there. (How is Self-Care number 1?)
Having Kindred be basekit has been requested before and I'm pretty sure the Devs have specifically said they didn't want to go that direction, though I can't provide a source for that. Of course, they could always change their mind as well.
I think what will happen will effectively provide the same information through the HUD, as they have stated plans to give more information that way. So if I see a teammate's status go from "On Generator" to "Running" soon after another teammate gets hooked, I might be able to assume they are going for the save. It's not as good as auras, of course, but it's a good step in the right direction. Hopefully they implement something to help Solo Q sooner rather than later, but they promised it's on the agenda.
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As someone who mained Trapper before Sadako came out, I still lean towards him being the worst Killer. I think it could be fine for Sadako to be the worst chase Killer in the game if condemnation actually was threatening. Because the mini mori is so powerful I can see why the Devs made her so weak, but enough time has passed where they should know that they can safely buff her. Hopefully it's a real rework, including add-ons, because I think they could make her very cool.
Trapper is an area denial, set-up Killer that generally always loses at least 1 gen when setting up, unless he runs Corrupt and / or Purple Bag. He is more map dependent than Sadako and of course all it takes is 1 or 2 survivors following him around to disable his traps. If he is at a loop where he hasn't set up a trap beforehand, he basically has no power. He can fake placing a trap (if he still has one on hand) or actually place a trap, but that's about the extent of his in chase power. Usually that forces the survivor to run away, but generally unless it's a deadzone or they run to another loop that you HAVE trapped, it doesn't help you get the down. And god forbid you take a bit too long to set up your 3 gen and they break it. But the snowball potential is certainly there and turning a 1 hook game into a 4k after the last gen pops is immensely rewarding.
Without Iri Tape Sadako's main advantage, her great mobility, is chained down. She does well at a hit and run playstyle but after the first 'surprise' hit you are better off just leaving to find another target, assuming the first survivor makes it to any sort of loop. Her phasing invisibility can be used to mindgame, but I haven't found it to be reliable. Honestly idk why she has a lullaby and it's annoying that the UI shows that you are playing against Sadako as soon as you load into the game. Normally TV spawns are good enough but sometimes.... they need to work on the algorithm.
While most survivors aren't worried about condemnation, and it's easy enough to turn in a tape mid-chase (unless Sadako has 5 STBFL stacks) at least it's a potential secondary objective that will get a few survivors to run across the map instead of sitting on gens.
Against a decent team that can manage health and condemnation (Circle of Healing is very good against her) it is a lot of work getting downs. 1 or 2 decent loopers will slow her down enough that the survivors should be in control most of the game. That's the same with all the lower tier Killers, too. She doesn't have to commit to a bad chase but without Iri Tape it gets harder to be where she needs to be to force survivors off gens and heal after a quick hit. She potentially could be at every gen survivors are working but if she misses someone they can solo a gen before she can teleport back.
I would say something about Myers but he has Tombstone things. Pig at least has her reverse bear traps which gives decent slowdown, and I guess Ambush is a thing that better than Demanifesting and remanifesting in chase. She is slow, though, as is Clown. I still give the edge to Trapper as being the worst Killer in the game. He's still fun but Eyrie of Crows... Anyway I hope Sadako gets some buffs soon!
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Also, if anyone is interested in some ideas for buffs, this is my other thread. Please stop assuming I actually want Sadako nerfed. I don't think slugging for Ring Drawing condemnation is that bad but I've seen enough DCs to understand that it's not fun for survivors. I want to buff the rest of her kit so she has more viable playstyles. You could make Ring Drawing stronger for all I care. It's her best add-on but she needs something more.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/324928/sadako-needs-buffs#latest
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I have turned my brightness up on my monitor to max and still can barely see anything on some parts of some maps, like the main house of Garden of Joy. I get that hiding in the dark could be fun but I play enough Killer to know that making things darker would get old very fast. Honestly even as survivor unless I run Windows I find it hard to loop in dark places or during Dredge's Nightfall. I like stealthy playstyles but the game really revolves around chases. The biggest issue right now is map design IMO and the brightness can be part of that. As for the old offerings I seem to recall that they were kind of annoying, but maybe that was just me.
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"Just reading these two sentences is contradiction. Your saying she needs more pressure through condemn but your next two lines are making it easier for survivors to remove condemn so condemn is even less of threat and reducing condemn build-up so there is even LESS urgency to put a tape into a TV. Needs more pressure, gives two extra nerfs."
I'm suggesting to speed up the entire process. More teleports -> more condemn -> more pressure to interact with TVs. That's MORE URGENCY. Needs more pressure, gains more pressure with giant teleport buffs, sacrifices something so survivor mains aren't crying.
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Okay, what I'm hearing is that people think that straight buffs will not be too strong on Sadako. As someone who has played a lot, with a variety of add-ons, I can say that on average it's not that difficult to fully comdemn someone, even now. So with more frequent TV teleports I think it could easily be too much. But maybe that's okay because she is one of the worst Killers in chase period.
"I think buffs at a certain number of condemnation stacks would make Sadako more dynamic to play against. Ultimately, make condemnation less of an 'all-or-nothing' mechanic. This would make interacting with TVs more appealing and help her by sending survivors on a secondary objective trip across the map periodically."
Gaining more stacks of condemnation per minute would force survivors to actually care about TVs. The only reason I suggest a trade-off by increasing cleansing is because OVERALL CONDEMNATION WOULD STACK QUICKER. If you all simply want more moris, then by all means. Slugging will still be very viable b/c why waste time hooking when getting someone fully condemned happens on a more regular basis. I think that more teleports forcing survivors to cleanse more often is the goal. IMO you should only get an instakill when you work hard for it or the survivor screws up.
Honestly, I just want exposure and healthy discussion so that the Devs see that a few people actually care to see Sadako buffed.
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@Veinslay said:
Lol at a thread asking for nerfs to condemnation. I thought I'd seen it all
you didn't read the post. reduce TV CDs will give more than enough condemnation. thanks for your lack of input.
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Sadako and Wraith are only similar superficially. She does NOT get the speed boost when manifesting, but instead only slows down a little bit while Wraith feels like molasses before his boost. After Myers and now Wesker, I don't really see any need for 'consistency.' Pig probably could be buffed a bit but Wraith and GF have very good add-ons. Regardless of how you feel about them, Sadako is worse, as you know. Buffing her does not mean Pig, GF, Wraith, and Myers should all adopt her smaller TR, though. They are unique Killers and each needs to be balanced accordingly.
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@LeFennecFox said:
It's a boring and relatively weak strat compared to what other killers can get just by chasing with better anti loop. It also heavily relies on bad communication aka solo queue to really shine with an iri. I don't think it's insanely overpowered, but I would prefer them buffing other parts of her kit instead of encouraging gameplay that actually wants you to be condemned irl.
Compared to other Killers that HAVE some form of Anti-loop. Sadako doesn't have that, so this is a strat that some players turn to. Obviously it is easily countered by good communication, and the entire point of this post is how to buff other parts of her kit so she doesn't have to rely on a strat that feels terrible as survivor.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
This is first post that I have read that says Sadako needs negative changes. This is last character that I would think would need negative changes.
You missed all the buffs I suggested. I was just saying that straight buffs like reducing her TV CDs too much (as I said, if you read, they NEED to be reduced.) would result in an oppressive amount of condemnation. Maybe you're okay with that, but I think you missed my point if what you took away from this post is that I want negative changes for Sadako.
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Why don't we give Sadako a Well where she spawns that she can always teleport to? It's part of her lore, you can keep 7 TVs (although 100 seconds is too long of a CD and everyone knows it) and it'd be a cool animation. I thought it'd be cool if she could move a teleportation spot like Demo sets up his portals, but moving a TV or a Well doesn't really make sense. Sometimes the TV spawns are bad due to RNG but you learn to deal with it.
My top ideas I keep coming back to are these:
- TV CDs set to 70s baseline, and all hits reduce the CD (after her teleport, not when a survivor takes a tape) by 10s. This rewards fast hits, and survivors will see more benefit to interacting with TVs b/c the 60s CD can only be shortened by the Well Stone add-on.
- Sadako sees Killer Instinct after a teleportation that gives condemnation stacks. The length of Killer Instinct can be lengthened by add-ons or depending on how many condemnation stacks the survivor has.
- Sadako manifests / demanifests faster based on total condemnation stacks across all survivors. (Or based on active TVs)
- Like Michael, Sadako can vault and break pallets based on how many TVs are turned on. (Or based on condemnation stacks)
- Pallet stuns are reduced by up to 50% while demanifested.
- Potential add-ons that could be basekit: Mother's comb, Bloody Fingernails, VCR, and Telephone.
- Another lore appropriate buff would be spreading Condemnation to your teammates when you turn in a tape. To compensate, turning in the tape to the target TV would remove 4 stacks again.
Also, while any of these could be add-ons, I'd prefer her basekit be buffed first. Add-ons could increase the range around TVs wher survivors gain stacks of condemnation. One could be like a much stronger Newspaper, making Sadako invisible while demanifested. She still has a faint lullaby like Wraith, too. Maybe Sadako could turn off a TV (that's near a completed gen, for example) in order to reduce the CD for her remaining TVs. Or if she doesn't condemn anyone after a teleport, she sees survivor auras for 2-3 seconds. There's so much cool stuff they could do because you can base buffs / debuffs around condemnation stacks. I'm pretty sure she'll get an add-on pass so I think that's why they are taking a while. Besides better add-ons I hope they reduce her TV CDs at least.
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I understand that I don't know what it takes to be a game developer. I think they have had enough success to hire the right people to get the work done. They are busy with the new Chapter which I am super excited for, which includes a decent rework of RPD. The game is the best it has ever been. Just give us 5 second DS stuns back. And they have stated that they don't want knee-jerk reactions and massive overcorrections. I've always thought they moved much too slowly with balancing, but I'll definitely give them credit for reworking 40 perks. But this is the team that took like 5 years to give Trapper, their poster boy, the ability to carry 2 traps basekit. And I played plenty of games bagless.
IMO smaller, more frequent changes would give more feedback and help alleviate issues more immediately instead of having to prove to a committee that X is a problem, and it is not likely to break the game. They could have made TV CDs 90 seconds weeks ago just to see how it goes. Not a full fix, but visible proof that they are looking into fixing that problem, gathering data. I realize it's a process, but I think it's been long enough for them to see that Onryo is underpowered and they could start with small changes until they have time for a full add-on rework.
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2 seconds to turn in a tape is likely deliberate as it's less than the 2.7 second wipe animation Killers have to go through after a hit. If I'm reading the stats correctly, the duration of Manifesting (1.5 seconds) also applies to teleports, so if you get the interrupt by teleporting, you should get a hit. I believe One Pump Willie said you need 5 stacks of STBFL to be able to interrupt again. Considering it could be the difference between whether you outright kill a survivor or not, I doubt they would make the turn in animation longer than standard wipe animation, although I would love it if you could interrupt twice without needing 5 stacks. It feels kinda bad when I don't run STBFL in general so I usually have it on most of my builds.
She could just be fine tuned (TV CDs) and given more add-ons that do what Iri Tape and Ring Drawing do (turn TVs back on / spread condemnation stacks) but I think they could get more creative with the risk reward of interacting with TVs. And while it would be perfectly fine to be the most basic M1 Killer if her macro pressure had more weight to it, I wouldn't complain if she got a little something while demanifested to like, help her mindgame more or something. Help her break pallets or vault faster, and you could tie the buff to how many condemn stacks she has. Just a little buff to make demanifesting in chase easier to make worthwhile. Admittedly, I need to keep trying to use demanifestation for mindgames, I bet there's more potential at some loops, especially since she is so short.
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Honestly, Sadako's power could really be made unique. I don't want her to be just a worse version of Dredge or to copy Wraith's add-ons. Risk-Reward of interacting with TVs is kind of a win-win for survivors. If you ignore the TVs maybe you get a few stacks of condemnation over the game (more if Ring Drawing / Iri Tape are being used) but it's not unusual for survivors to be perfectly fine. Or you take the tape, deny her teleport which is her main power, and you are unlikely to have full condemnation before you can deliver your tape to the right TV, unless she dedicates herself to harrassing you. And even if you do get fully condemned, she still has to down you as a basic M1 Killer.
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/324928/sadako-needs-buffs
Aku's Sadako Solution:
Link every gen to a TV set. Let Sadako's curse protect the gen from being worked at while the TV got its tape.
This forces one survivor per gen to take the tape, keep taps on their condemnation, maybe wanting to hold on to a tape till the gen is done, before hauling it over half the map etc.
And in the same vein, Sadako gets info which gens are being worled at, but can't teleport to that gens. Maybe add a couple of extra TV sets sprinkled on the map.
I would also love to see her TVs cooldowns be lowered a good bit, as it's hindering her a lot.
Very unique idea! But forcing survivors to interact with TVs would be way too strong IMO unless they significantly lowered the passive condemnation gain or even eliminated it. Maybe instead of preventing work on gens or slowing gen progression within active TV ranges, the number of active TVs gives Sadako a buff. Every TV that is on gives her a 2% speed boost to breaking pallets, with an additional 1% if all TVs are powered. 15% if you haven't teleported in a significant time wouldn't be game breaking by any means. She needs a little something to help her chase, unless condemnation stacks become much more threatening. I'm not sure exactly how fast Nemmy or Bubba break pallets, but Wraith's Shadow Dance add-on gives him 60% breaking AND vaulting speed when cloaked. I was going to say that holding a tape could even give that survivor a boost, but that would speed the game up too much. If gens were 5% slower if the corresponding TV was on, that might be workable / give a meaningful choice. Or when teleporting, survivors on that gen get a difficult skill check. If they miss it and are forced off, Sadako doesn't have to spend time kicking it. I'm just thinking of random buffs that could make Sadako more lethal and more fun.
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Genuine tunneling and face-camping is not as ubiquitous as some might lead you to believe. However, when it happens, it can really negatively affect how fun a match is. And no, it's not the Killer's responsibility to make sure the Survivors have a fun time. It's the Devs' responsibility.
From big to small: Solo Q needs more information so that coordination (necessary for saves against campers) is available.
There could be baseline incentives to leave the area of a hook, like Devour, new Monstrous, and MYC have on a perk level. Or conversely, buff Survivors in some way if the Killer stays within say 8m of a hook.
Personally, I find the extra 2 seconds from DS could make a difference, depending how you can position yourself close to a strong loop. I've seen an idea where Killer powers are deactivated and have to recharge after DS, which would help vs. Nurse and Blight but not affect M1 Killers. "Just be good enough that tunneling ends up hurting the Killer more than it benefits them from removing 1/4 of the Survivors from the match." IMO you could go on a 100 second chase and your team gets 3 gens done and it could be argued that it's worth the tunnel for a Killer. But at least you got to play for another 100 seconds, assuming you can loop well enough. Was it really skillful play if you didn't win? But in my experience I find that the tunneled survivor doesn't last that long, and a teammate is floating around trying to take a hit or pull aggro because until you confirm hard tunneling that's the right play.
But in the best case scenario, where a Killer only gets 1 kill, 1 survivor likely has a rather unpleasant experience. And that's not the Killer's responsibility to address. But maybe the Devs could at least make that playstyle (because no matter what, some campers will always camp / tunnel) less rewarding / harder to do.
Reassurance is a band-aid, and depending on the map and Killer can be less effective, but at least it's something.
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After many more games of Sadako, and with the general Killer buffs (faster kicking, wipe animation, etc.) I'm not changing my original opinions, but I think she could also use an add-on pass.
60 seconds TV cooldown after teleports would feel great. Another add-on besides Cabin Sign or Iri Tape might be nice, but basekit (or not, it could be a new add-on) maybe every lost health state takes 10 seconds off the TV cooldowns (of all TVs that are off, or the last TV you teleported through). If that were the case 70 or even 80 seconds for the TV CD would be ok, rewarding hits.
Passive condemnation if you hold a tape is 25 seconds per stack. Meaning a survivor's choice is A) take the risk of getting 1 stack and being pushed off your generator, or B) immediately getting 1 stack but being safe, BUT every 25 seconds you gain another stack. In most situations I would not take the tape. I think this weighing of options could be more interesting if, like many have suggested, there was some kind of passive condemnation that wasn't tied to holding a tape. However, I realize that it would be very easy for this to cause too many stacks and too much free pressure. Ideally pressure should come from Killer skill cough Pinhead cough.
Let's say 45 seconds per passive stack would be fair. If you added passive condemnation you could decrease the rate you gain stacks while holding a tape to compensate. 2 stacks of passive condemnation for a full gen, risking interruption and another stack, or pulling a tape to deny the teleport and additional stack, but the survivor would get over 2 (3 at the current rate) stacks of passive condemnation if left alone, plus the original stack from the tape. Most would still lean towards the former option, but this would make interacting with TVs when gens are almost done much more appealing. Let's not forget if there are 2 or more people on a gen, there would be less passive condemnation per survivor, or 1 survivor could take the tape, making sure their teammate(s) will not gain any stacks.
But honestly, with Iri Tape and Ring Drawing (Almost all other add-ons are terrible by comparison), I find that I can get decent condemnation pressure and it's not that rare that a survivor reaches full condemnation. Considering a mini mori is tied to this mechanic, it needs to be balanced carefully, and passive condemnation could easily be too much. Lowering the TV CD will make a difference, but it's not enough. Adding additional TVs is still an attractive option, but I think the entire condemnation mechanic could be so much more intricate if it wasn't all or nothing. Give Sadako buffs when the survivors have a certain amount of total condemnation stacks. This would make the risk-reward calculation of when to interact with TVs much more interesting. Survivors would have more reasons to take tapes and risk passive condemnation gain in order to get rid of 3 stacks and remove a buff that Sadako would get.
Examples could include: 1. Survivors work on generators X% slower with each stack. 2. Survivors become hindered upon reaching X stacks. 3. Sadako can Manifest / Demanifest X% faster after X total stacks on all survivors. I think because you can mori at full condemnation, exposed tied to full condemnation would be too strong. But maybe an add-on could give exposed for 10-20 seconds after a TV is turned in.
Sadako needs better add-ons to support a more diverse set of playstyles. TV CD reduction is almost non-negotiable for me. And I'd love other baseline buffs. But if she has to be a standard M1 Killer with no nuanced change to how condemnation works, AT LEAST give her some good add-ons because she'll be dependent on them, just as Wraith and GF are. Wraith can move even faster when cloaked, his breaking animation is much faster, his uncloak bell can be silent, or he can have wallhacks depending on what add-ons he uses. Ghostface can gain 10% haste after marking, make a gen explode and block it, cause exhaustion, and can reveal auras with his add-ons. Sadako can... be a little bit sneakier, I guess. One Pump Willie made a great video going through her add-ons.
- Maybe Demanifested, Sadako can break pallets and gens faster?
- Maybe she can avoid pallet stuns (this could even be basekit, IMO).
- Maybe a Doctor like illusion could pop up if there's enough condemnation.
- Maybe the range around TVs where she inflicts a stack of condemnation could be bigger.
- Or it takes longer for survivors to interact with TVs.
- Or she could see auras for 5 seconds after a tape is taken.
- Or if not basekit, any of the examples above of nerfs to survivors with enough condemnation stacks.
- How about survivors with X stacks who are hooked are given a tape when unhooked if Sadako is more than 24m away?
- Or like in my original post - Dowsey's lore appropriate suggestion - getting rid of stacks instead spreads them to other survivors (revert it to where survivors remove 4 stacks, but each teammate gains a stack to prevent insurmountable pressure).
- Survivors that are hit 5 seconds after manifestation are inflicted with Exhaustion for 5 seconds, or are Oblivious for 10 seconds, or have their auras revealed for 2 seconds.
- If you hit a survivor with a tape within 12m of their target TV, the target switches so they have to take their tape to another TV.
- As mentioned above, if not basekit, every hit removes 10 seconds off TV CDs.
There are so many cool ideas that would make her more than a basic M1 Killer with a teleport that has a super long CD (unless you hit a survivor and run Iri Tape).
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I don't mind that it's easy to get a flashlight save at a locker. That by itself is fine. It's another tool for a good team of survivors to use if there isn't a pallet or window immediately available. But is there a way to not make it repeatable? Lockers should not be that safe.
Honestly, people say that having 2 people off gens is a good thing. Sure, for the 5 seconds you stay, and then you leave because you have better things to do than be blinded for the next 4 minutes. They heal or jump back on the nearest gen, and unless you get the jump on them, just rinse and repeat. All while at least 1 other survivor is able to just sit on other gens. It's no different than being in a chase you can never win. It's clearly a losing battle, even if you catch them out the very next time.
It's easy to say things like, "just beat them to a locker," but maybe they just stand in front of lockers. It's honestly not even about 'winning' the game. You leave and kill their teammates who are actually doing gens. The situation is ######### for Killer no matter when it pops up, however rare.
I read a comment somewhere that maybe after a few blinds the Killer could 'adapt' and it would take longer to blind (within like 30 seconds, then timers would revert to normal). In normal gameplay I guess this might be helpful to Killers that make multiple poor pick-ups in a row, and maybe that's not good. But it would eventually close the window (or, the DOOR... ok I'm done) for repeated locker saves.
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@VikingDragonXii said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2967748#Comment_2967748
She's a slightly better trapper with a mic of wraith and spirit...her tp is kinda useless because if gens are done in areas where TV's are then you won't use those TV's the rest of the match....that being said I love playing her and she's not weak but she's not strong either and she does need some help.
I used to main Trapper before Sadako, and I definitely think she is better on average just because her pseudo-stealth and much better map presence. But although survivors can deny his power of the disarm his traps, it's not that rare you get a crazy snowball.
Also, Sadako seems a bit less map dependent. To the comment above about Wraith and Trickster, I think they are both in an okay place. Trickster can dominate short loops and while Wraith can be more of a baby killer he has some strong add-ons that I find annoying to go against.
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@[Deleted User] said:
I'm guessing the thought with Condemnation was that survivors would interact with tvs more to prevent her from teleporting. The issue is that there's zero reason to do that because she's a complete non-threat in chase.
Absolutely true. Survivors can easily turn off all TVs with basically no risk. Or they could ignore them all game and never really worry about Condemnation. Either way, Sadako is an M1 killer with nothing to make her a threat in chase. It'd be easy (conceptually, I think it'd be much harder from a technical / code writing standpoint) to just give her an anti-loop power. But I think it'd be more unique to double down on her existing mechanics, and they could give her buffs to help her in chase based on Condemnation stacks. Or giving her demanifestation state a real purpose besides a weak mind game tool would help her get downs faster.
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I don't understand why the devs haven't at least made Trapper able to carry 2 traps baseline. It's such a simple change that would make a big difference. I like the ideas that either traps can be gotten from lockers / or spawn near generators. Having to juggle traps is the key problem, though. Also, as I assume many have pointed out, the RNG on escaping his traps is ridiculous. 3-8 attempts should be standardized, and also it should take at least twice as long for other survivors to untrap whoever is stuck. If an injured survivor steps in a trap, having them go into a deep wound state would be very nice, instead of them escaping with no penalty. Finally, I think it'd be nice to increase the Trapper's movement speed if he is not carrying any traps. I think Trapper is super fun but easily the worst Killer in the game, and he deserves some love.