hinney
hinney
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3856586#Comment_3856586
It doesn't negate your point, just saying it happens on both sides. It's unfortunate and it's not right to be toxic for the sake of being toxic but both sides have to learn to deal with it
Yeah. The internet is undefeated in fostering toxic communities. If there's anything you can bet money on, it's the internet being toxic and optimizing the fun out of everything.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3856237#Comment_3856237
To be fair killers have to endure t bagging at the gates forcing the killer to traverse the map to both exit gates to literally force survivors out or wait until egc ends. Why does the killer have to forcibly push people through the gate which when all are healed can take a fair amount of time to hit them all out. Some t bag after every pallet drop knowing the killer can't touch them. Survivors are ok doing it to killers repeatedly throughout the match so I don't see why killers can't do it back. In an ideal world survivors at the gate would just leave and go next and killers would just hook, get the kill and go next.
Yeah, and that's also a toxicity issue. I don't see how that negates my point at all.
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It's so frustrating to be on a kick for a specific role and get nothing but rituals for the opposite role. When you trash a survivor ritual, it should give you a killer ritual, and vice versa.
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Are you trying to finish all the gens and get numerous people out? Or do you not care about the team and only want to get yourself out?
For the former - a balanced build with:
-Deja Vu (which has been suggested a lot here, but preventing 3-gen scenarios and gaining slight repair speed is crucial for escape),
-Kindred (one of the most powerful solo queue perks so you can always see where your teammates are when someone is hooked - and they can all see each other while you're hooked),
-an exhaustion perk of your choice - but I recommend Sprint Burst (and don't walk until the killer is 2 inches away from you before you start sprinting. You're wasting distance. If the killer is coming toward you, make distance as early as possible. There's a solid chance they decide not to chase in that situation.),
-and then you can throw either an altruistic perk like We'll Make It/Bond/Botany/etc., an objective perk like Prove Thyself/Stake Out (or Hyperfocus if you're good at great skill checks), or an info perk like Windows/Wire Tap, or an all-around perk like Resilience which will increase your speed at everything while injured.
If you only care about yourself escaping…
Sole Survivor and Left Behind will all but ensure a solo escape if you're the last one alive. You open the gate (or the hatch with a key if it's been stomped) super fast, as well as seeing the hatch's aura when nearby. Other than those two, you can run any number of self-sustaining perks to the potential detriment of your team. Anti-tunnel perks like Decisive Strike and Off the Record can help you survive to the end game, Inner Strength and even Strength in the Shadows now can clutch out a self heal if you cleanse a totem and hop in a locker or go in the basement, respectively. Plot Twist lets you down yourself during the normal game and heal to full health, and again at the end of the game after the gens are powered naturally or if the killer shuts the hatch. Adrenaline is also an option for an end-game heal, but you need to not be in the killer's clutches or on a hook for it to work now.
There are a million options, but don't let escaping be the most important thing all the time. Play a style that you have fun playing, and if you escape, you escape. If you don't, you don't.
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@UltraLight said:
First I would say, slugging itself is in-game intendet mechanic that is not an abuse or "toxic" in any way or form (unless you combine with like excessive tbagging, rude end-game chat, etc.). On its own, its like saying pallet looping is toxic because it can be effective. I am not a fan people calling such mechanics toxic.
Now to the point, I think some kind of give up option would be nice but it would have to be limited so someone don't just go down and leave the match for free in like 1 min.
Slugging in general isn't my complaint here. It's the humping while I bleed out. I'm not sure how you missed the "humped to death" part of that sentence. Toxic crap. Let me go next without a penalty.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/434928/option-to-bleed-out-faster-when
I think the question is how did the whole team get slugged to begin with? Usually it's because whole team tries to play toxic and team blind/body block the killer when they try hook. If they do that then it's fair game. But if people are spread out doing gens then the killer shouldn't really be able to slug the whole team.. unless the team refused to heal the slugs.
Two were killed, my teammate got downed and slugged, then he came to me and downed me. Rather than hooking me, he got in a snowman and humped me until I bled out. Zero toxicity on our side.
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@steamed_hamzzz said:
Okay seriously, how are you meant to counter it? You can’t face away, or even face a wall because the speed boost and blast angle still allows for saves
You can’t realistically equip lightborn every game just in case they bring 1 perk
Flashbang by itself is fine, it allows for skilful saves if you’re close enough and have the right timing, or a free blind at pallets every now and then. The problem is Background Player, it makes the perk incredibly frustrating, especially in the hands of a coordinated SWF
Background player needs nerfing
How is it unrealistic to equip the perk that perfectly counters what you're complaining about…?
If the Flashbang/Background Player combo is such a huge issue, why do you not slap on Lightborn and not have to worry about it?
If it's a big issue that happens to you all the time, counter it. If it's not a big enough issue to dedicate a counter to, what are you actually complaining about?
"You can't realistically equip Lightborn every game just in case they bring 1 perk"
Sounds like you want to have zero counters to your own playstyle without having to change it in the slightest. Doesn't seem like it's happening super often to you, either. Just now and then, someone gets a flashbang save and you're salty about it.
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3663678#Comment_3663678
To play devils advocate a lil here. I get where you are coming from with trying to spread pressure and hooks and your personal feelings on "Tunneling" however you define it.
But can you see that you still, by your own admission, "tunnel" you've just created a collection of arbitrary rules about when its appropriate and when it isn't.
So using BT to body block for the rescuer, immediately makes tunneling not lame, boring or unfair? Because the player is asking for it?
Isn't this just using a playstyle you don't like to try and punish a different playstyle you don't like and feel justified in doing so?
If not that then why is leveraging this advantageous scenario because a player squandered their BT permissible but leveraging an unsafe unhook in the same way isn't?
What about this makes it any more fair, "morally just" or earned, than choosing to chase the unhooked over the rescuer because it can be advantageous to do so?
Its ok in tourneys because you can lose gens fast but not ok in regular play? What about regular play when you are losing gens fast, where do you draw the line?
I think the big problem with "tunneling" is not so much its game impact, but rather players have taken a odd kind of moralistic view of it and if circumstances arise that permit a player to be eliminated early that taking advantage of that is unearned or undeserved.
There is also such a subjective take on what constitutes "tunneling" that its an easy scape goat when things don't go well, rather than looking to one's own play and mistakes.
For all my not having an issue with "tunneling" I can't say that I use it as a tactic a lot either, its often not needed and if I double hook someone for the elimination its typically past mid game and a scenario that kinda crops up organically due to circumstance. But I get accused of "tunneling" and "camping" a lot, the terms get thrown on like ketchup.
Which has inevitably made me question all these posters on the forum complaining about tunneling, are they really being tunneled all the time as they claim or is the definition so broad now that you can see it everywhere making it a convenient scapegoat when things don't go your way.
I don't get tunneled that much and neither do a lot of the players I play with. I'm not saying it doesn't happen it definitely does and I've definitely done it myself, but is it overblown?... It kinda is.
If someone is playing in a manner that prevents my fair play, such as extremely purposeful body blocks (I'm talking, running behind the other survivor and stopping in a doorway so I can't pass), I will suspend my normal playstyle and give them what they want.
I just finished a game where a Feng player (on anonymous mode, shocker for such toxic play) camped and threw shack pallet on me within about a minute of the match starting (as I came up from the basement after hooking my first down) while not even in chase with her to get her Champion of the Light blind and double blind as I broke the pallet, and attempt to triple blind, and teabag and click at me while I looked down to prevent the extra blinds. She was constantly running near me during chase, clicking her flashlight at me, attempting saves while I went to pick up other survivors, a couple times even while injured.
She wasn't good and thought she was, and was begging for chase until she very quickly got on death hook, and was still in the mix rather than sitting gens while I chased other survivors. I got a down and she and another flashlight player popped out to try to save. You better believe I picked her. If you put yourself in my face like that, you're going to get chased. She was out of the match at 3 gens and like 5 or 6 hooks.
It doesn't seem particularly inconsistent to me, but it's obviously my own logic. So maybe I'm missing something in my own blind spot but, as far as I'm concerned, if I try to play fairly and you tell me to come chase you, it's not playing unfairly to come chase you. Beg for chase all match, you can have it.
It's ok in tourneys because that's what what everyone signed up for. That's what's expected. It is, after all, the most effective/efficient way to play and the style with the highest likelihood to give you a win. And it doesn't even work most of the time because of how good the survivors are and how strong their communication is. It's an extremely hard fought game at those levels, even to just get one kill most of the time. At the casual level, it's not hard at all to tunnel people.
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The other part of it would be to remove collision for survivors so they can't body block and hit tank.
I can't tell you the amount of times I try to not tunnel and have someone that just got unhooked body block me from chasing their healthy ally.
We have all these perks to incentivize killers to not tunnel - things like the reworked Pain Res, the old BBQ and Chili (why in the world would they change that?), the reworked Grim Embrace, etc.
All the anti-tunnel perks on the survivor side are repurposed into "I can purposefully get in the way of the killer with my second chance perk" and then they complain about tunneling.
It's never going to be balanced unless we get the mentality changed in the community, or unless they make wildly radical changes to perks or base mechanics to prevent or greatly punish unfavorable playstyles. Neither of which is ever going to happen.
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I disagree with a lot of takes on here.
From both sides for me, as I play both killer and survivor quite frequently, tunneling is lame, boring, and unfair.
When I play killer, I go out of my way to not return to the hook. Or, if I'm near the hook when an unhook happens/the unhook is performed immediately in my face, I will chase the un-hooker, not the person who was just on the hook. If there are two people with the same cosmetic, and the most recently hooked person is healed and I realize I've attacked that person, I will leave the chase probably 9 of 10 times. The only time you get tunneled is when you essentially are asking for it by attempting to body block a full health ally with your base-kit borrowed time as I'm actively trying to not hit you. I generally win games and even beat SWFs, unless they're cracked or bring BNPs and do all the things to crank through the gens as I get 20s into a chase. It's pretty rare that, even playing extremely fairly, I don't get at least 2 kills. Even in those games that I do poorly, you get the toxic teabaggers who stand at the open gate and make you force all 4 of them out.
When I play survivor, and a killer leaves an active chase to run back to me getting unhooked is very frustrating. Usually you are hooked in a relative dead-zone, because that's how you went down in the first place. The ten seconds of base-kit BT is not always enough to get you to where you need to be to make a decent chase, especially if the killer manages to cut you off and body blocks you.
Tunneling isn't necessary if you're not playing at the highest levels. "High MMR" isn't the highest levels. Comp/tourney squads are the highest levels. Where you NEED to kill someone before a gen gets popped or you lose 3 all at once and the game is basically over now. Those teams are mega coordinated and pop in for hit tanks and body blocks, and still work on gens most of the time. If you play fairly against your average teams, which, again, is the large majority of the people who play the game (that's literally what "average" is), you have a very solid shot of getting your two+ kills at at least "tying" the game.
Is simply winning the game in any manner actually the only thing that so many people care about? I care about enjoying the process of the game. I like having fair chases, on both sides. That's the most fun. Do you guys feel a great achievement from tunneling someone off the hook? That win feels good to you? Singling out the "weak link" and specifically targeting that player? I don't see the achievement in that. If you need to play unfairly to win, you don't deserve to get the win, in my opinion. It's way more fulfilling to play fairly and have a hard fought win than to just target a new player and basically win the game with a kill and 5 gens left.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3636924#Comment_3636924
This.
And it is extremely unlikely they'll ever be made stronger because camping and tunneling aren't exploits or problems, they are strategies. Strategies which are acknowledged and recognized by the developers as valid.
A base-kit feature that impacts a valid strategy will never be strong enough to completely stop it, even if the strategy happens to be frowned upon. Which is why we need perks like Decisive Strike.
I'm aware that they consider/used to consider them valid. I said as much in my OP. However, if they still consider them so valid, why are there any features to dissuade them at all? Clearly, they see SOMETHING inherently wrong with those strategies.
@NomiNomad said:
Pretty sure "Meg" is also censored in end game chat. And GG sometimes. Really not a good indicator of what BHVR considers bad, just an indicator of a broken chat censor.
While I agree more could be done towards camping and tunelling, using examples like base-kit borrowed time and the anti-camp don't really prove anything. If they actually wanted something done, these would be stronger.
That's part of my point, too, I guess. They're very well aware of the toxicity in the game. That's why some of those seemingly innocuous words are banned. Even just some of the survivors' names. We want to foster a less toxic environment, clearly. Be inoffensive, no mean things allowed! Except toxic playstyles are allowed, making people want to use their gamer words, and rewarding the people who are purposefully aiming for that reaction with a good chuckle.
The base-kit stuff added in is pretty worthless. So the question of why have it at all if tunneling is a valid strategy rises. They 100% should crank it up if they actually want to prevent it from being done. If they don't actually want to discourage the "valid strategy," why are any counter measures there? It's just a lame half-measure that really doesn't do anything, but makes some people think they care about fixing the playstyle more than they actually do. Proceeding to confuse those of us who think about it for just a few seconds.
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Playing scared and urban evading around is already an issue. Now they've been given an incentive to let their teammates die on hook and be the last one when the hatch opens.
Absolutely terrible call on the devs' part. I'm just gonna have to go play killer without my friend/s to get cosmetics.