jmwjmw27
jmwjmw27
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@Dec4y said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4037149#Comment_4037149
At 19 seconds I can see broken pallet debris.
wow, good catch… 2 planks and I had to zoom in and trace them to see it 😂
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@Anniehere said:
- Top 3 killers: Albert Wesker, Nemesis, Pyramid Head.
- Top 3 survivors: Leon Kennedy, Ada Wong, Alan Wake. (Claire Redfield is my favorite too, but because of how loud she is, Ada is my most picked).
- Favorite perk: Kindred, Aftercare.
- Favorite map: Lery's Memorial Institute.
- Least favorite map: Dead Dawg Saloon.
- Favorite Mori: Sadako. I love the movie.
- Licensed chapter you want to see: The Grudge (2004). I think it will never come and it's such a missed opportunity.
- OG chapter you want to see: Pure horror would be psychiatric facility. It could be someone who do experiments on people, or a patient that is unknown to be alive or dead; because of his appearance and how the temperature in the room changes. Anything psychological would be scary.
- Killer you don't like: Huntress, Wraith, Hag, Clown, Trickster, Spirit, Artist, Vecna, Nurse and Myers (his rework makes me feel miserable against him).
- Favorite event: None. Only the Chaos Shuffle modifier is a blast for me.
Least favorite map: Dead Dawg Saloon
This is an opinion I haven’t heard very often; I am interested, why is it your least favorite? Just curious.
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Midwich Elementary School:
Certain pallets that should be spawning are not spawning. I'm assuming this is a bug, but it does need to be addressed as it ruins the balance of a pretty good killer favored map. It does not need more deadzones. I also noticed that the tiles in the courtyard seem to be weaker? I've only tested this map twice but both times courtyard spawned no pallets (not counting clock tower which seems unchanged), and in the last screenshot ALL 3 courtyard tiles had no window or pallet (see zanshin tactics) which shouldn't happen.
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@Tenac said:
I know these pop up every now and then but I love hearing about people relationship with the game. So lets have some fun.
- Top 3 killers: Dracula, Hag, Dredge
- Top 3 survivors: Dwight, Ash, Nic Cage (i don't have the latter two but maybe someday)
- Favorite perk: Spies from the shadows
- Fav map: The ruins
- Least favorite map: The school and springwood
- Fav mori: Hag, its just so brutal
- Licensed chapter you want to see: Any universal monster
- OG chapter you want to see: Werewolf, Scarecrow, Host for the entity
- Killer you don't like: Maybe springtrap simply for commoness
- Fav event: Bone chill has been super fun. Having a snowball fight the middle of being hunted is so silly (and yes as killer I will join in on the fun).
- Top 3 killers: Blight, Wraith, Springtrap
- Top 3 survivors: Ace, Meg, Dwight
- Favorite Perk: No Way Out/Dead Hard
- Favorite Map: Coal Tower
- Least Favorite Map: Nostromo
- Favorite Mori: Ghostface because of the photo at the end.
- Licensed chapter I want: Jason. It will never happen but would complete the roster in a lot of ways if it did.
- OG chapter I want: A liquid-based killer would be cool. Maybe it could turn into a puddle and move around or change shape or something.
- Killer I dislike: Hag because of her gameplay. Close second Huntress, I can’t play her and don’t really like playing against her.
- Favorite event: 2v8, I love killer in 2v8 and will play it every time it is available.
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As long as people are playing for the team somehow I don’t care what they bring. I’m only dodging a build that is clearly only designed for a solo escape (key + hatch offering + stealth perks + sole survivor and wake up) because I know that person isn’t going to participate in the game.
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I’m not an anime guy and I don’t really watch any so I can’t name characters, but…
If they do another anime license, PLEASE make it horror or horror adjacent. That is all.
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Depends on scenario but I usually prefer normal gameplay but with maybe a light moment or two to acknowledge when something crazy happens.
For example, I had a match a week ago where a killer wasn’t able to move between two objects but I was. When we noticed, we both kinda stopped and stared for a few seconds, then I waited for him to walk around it and hit me to continue the chase. Rest of the match played out normally.
They don’t have to give mercy or anything, I just like the little things that make it apparent that behind the killer model there’s another player behind a screen playing against you.
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@grumpelfox said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4036328#Comment_4036328
simple question . i am forced by the games code to be limited in how many times im able to do what is especially part of my objective ie protecting gens. should survivors be equally limited in their ability to to their objective . go play killer at a high level i promise you, your holier then thou attitude will change immediately
your objective is killing survivors. There is nothing limiting you from that directly. Nothing is stopping you from chasing a survivor and killing them.
Is the automatic window block feature limiting the survivors from doing their objective? That’s about the same as what you’re asserting here.
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If you get the sound bug press tab, it fixes it and gives you sound back.
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I cannot believe we just nuked every common map in the game and now we’re on to complaining about Lerys of all maps.
Lerys and the game are nothing alike, Lerys has 3 total god pallets. Most other pallets and windows are outplayable. You should try improving at the game, unironically. The map is fine.
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It would take around 560 matches based on the numers on the dbd wiki, ignoring first game of the day xp bonus and assuming all matches last 10 minutes and you get an iri emblem in every one.
I honestly cannot say it’d be worth the time grinding them out.
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Yes, FTD works. Any screaming perk will do, including thwack and ultimate weapon.
I don’t think Huntress Lullaby works with box skill checks. I could be wrong, but to the best of my knowledge skill checks perks don’t work on powers like demo portal cleanse, pinhead box solve, and pig box search.
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If you remove the bloodweb and let people buy what they want, then BHVR will never be able to change any item or addon ever again because of complaining.
Strong item/addon nerfed - undo the nerf, I put all my bp into this so I dont have anything else to use!
weak item/addon buffed - so what, I dont have any of these, ill just run my meta addon/item so I dont have to grind BP!
Bloodweb is good because it gives you some control over what you get but still forces you to diversify. The issue with the bloodweb imo is how absolutely punishing it is for newer players by forcing them to commit to one main until they play enough to dump levels into different characters. (Which would not change if you remove it, a new player will not be able to afford buying a full perk loadout + items + addons + offering for every character they want to play, esp killer)
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She still has one of the easiest 1v1 chase powers to use for how strong it is. I think she’s fine.
She’s a solid A tier but unlike most killers basically mandates you play in pairs unless you want short chases. Which is enough to completely crush solo queue already.
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@grumpelfox said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4035411#Comment_4035411
its happened to me many times , and it sucks . things like surge seem to count as 2 regression events instead of 1 so that means that gen gets blocked twice as fast
This is misinformation. Surge counts as only one regression event.
The only thing that technically counts for two is eruption, one for the kick to apply it and another for the trigger when you get a down.
If you trigger eruption and surge at the same time with a down, that is two regression events, but it’s not surge counting as 2.
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@Anti051 said:
Getting 3-gen'd is basically getting screwed at the macro level for the survivors, right?
Getting gen-split (2 gens on one side of the map, 1 on the opposite side) is basically getting screwed at the macro level for killers, right?
Does it seem like a bit of a double standard to anybody else that one of these things gets a special aid system and the other gets nothing?
"My favorite part about hockey is how the goalie gets benched for the rest of the match after blocking 8 shots on the goal." - Patrick Harris, Probably
The killer can defend a 3 gen from the start. If the survivors are 3 genned, it happens at the start of the match due to map RNG, not necessarily survivor misplays.
On the other hand, if you’re left with a 2-1 split as killer, the survivors played well and popped 4 gens to get there (and depending on the killer, you also misplayed).
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Blight’s turnrate is hard capped in the game and has been for a very long time. Also you do not even need a DPI switcher to pull off flicks, granted they are not as free as new Oni but still don’t even need that high of a sensitivity.
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@WoodenFox said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4036048#Comment_4036048
You don't understand what moving the goalpost means clearly so ill explain it to you
- alter the conditions or rules of a procedure during its course.
I did not do this as you can see. I asked if you played killer. You showed me you did. Then I was wondering for how long you played killer. (Same topic still if you didn't know) I say 400 hours is not a lot (It isn't) I never said you don't play killer after you sent the pictures because you clearly do. I then asked to see your survivor stats. (Still not moving any goalposts)
Simply put though 4-500 over 6 years (2020-2026) is literally nothing. But perfectly explains some of your takes.
Don't just use random phrases yo don't know either. Its confusing.
The amount of time reflected in game is purely game time and doesn’t reflect gameplay before… 2020? If you think he doesn’t play killer, I invite you to post your own stats here and show us how many more hours you have on killer… you might be surprised at how low the numbers are.
For reference, here’s how my 5100 hours shakes out on the stats (I play a lot of customs, but still):
Also as someone who demonstrably plays both sides, they are right, you can bait head on easily with game sense for a hit.
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I use pain res + eruption in a majority of my games and almost never have an issue with the regression limit. It’s fine as is, if it triggers for me at all I’ve already gotten so much value out of my perks that I should be winning anyway.
Without it you would have possibly the most boring meta of all time back.
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@jmwjmw27 said:
The most you can ever get chain stunned (meaning, NO possible way to escape the stuns) is DS→4x head on in a spot with 2 lockers next to each other. And this can only start if you pick up a survivor with DS near double lockers.
In this situation you are stunned for a whole 4+3(3)=13 seconds, meanwhile every single survivor has revealed their position and perk to you and no one is doing anything else. It’s absolutely a harmless gimmick especially now that vigil has been capped.
As for chain blinds, they can only do a maximum of 3 with a flashlight save and 2 chains with the second happening right before you regain control. Just look down and use headphones if you can, the guy chain blinding is sacrificing distance to obscure your vision so the person off your shoulders gets away.
Actually, I forgot about last stand and blood rush, lol.
If someone dies between the window and lockers on that 5 locker jungle gym, you could in theory be hit by DS and 4 last stands and 4 head ons for a 4+4(3)+4(3)=28(!) seconds stun. I don’t think this has ever happened in an actual game but now I really want to see it happen.
If all four survivors also had blood rush (which I think is impossible practically as their timers will expire, but whatever), that would be a 40 second stun.
Anyway, I still don’t think this is an issue, and I play killer a lot. A scenario like this is a long stun, but the survivor team is committing their entire build for this one moment and requires you to misplay to activate it, during which they’re not getting any gen time anyway.
If your issue is with rapid but not necessarily chained stuns (like getting head on’d multiple times in a chase), you should probably start predicting and baiting it out to outplay it rather than eating every single stun head on, no pun intended.
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The most you can ever get chain stunned (meaning, NO possible way to escape the stuns) is DS→4x head on in a spot with 2 lockers next to each other. And this can only start if you pick up a survivor with DS near double lockers.
In this situation you are stunned for a whole 4+4(3)=16 seconds, meanwhile every single survivor has revealed their position and perk to you and no one is doing anything else. It’s absolutely a harmless gimmick especially now that vigil has been capped.
As for chain blinds, they can only do a maximum of 3 with a flashlight save and 2 chains with the second happening right before you regain control. Just look down and use headphones if you can, the guy chain blinding is sacrificing distance to obscure your vision so the person off your shoulders gets away.
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0% of the time it’s the survivor’s fault. I tunnel because I choose to because it is the best play to win.
I would say that in maybe 15% of my matches, a survivor will do something stupid that “justifies” tunneling, like bodyblocking with basekit BT or getting on a gen near their hook. So I guess if you want to use fault as in, they made a misplay and made it too easy, probably around 15%.
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Yes please. This item got nuked into oblivion by doomsayers when it was fine and easily outplayable on maps where it wasn’t bugged.
I also think it could use some more addons or addon buffs to allow you to play into other aspects of it than just making the fog as thick as possible. I like using it as an anti aura reading item to counter perks like BBQ or friends. Being able to make the duration really long at the cost of visibility or something would be cool too.
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@まうっす said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4035867#Comment_4035867
Don't you know that the administration announced they will be readjusting the maps again soon? In the recent update, the number of maps hasn't decreased, so the environment remains tough for walking killers. Please stop speaking as if the North American server, where generators aren't prioritized and people constantly go off on detours, is the standard.
We’re talking about how the game is right now as per your OP. And the comment you are replying to did not mention anything about NA servers as the standard, only how maps are right now.
And right now, maps have less pallets, and almost every filler pallet in the game has been made unsafe. So, from an outside perspective, your complaint that maps have too many pallets seems to be more of a skill issue than a serious complaint. -
Stopping your movement for a short period of time on its own is not bad design. You get a speed boost afterward, and the killer is slowed after and has a cooldown before he can use his power again. Sure, it might feel bad if you get bit this way, but you're being attacked, it's not really supposed to feel good.
This seems more of a personal issue than a flaw in game design.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4035380#Comment_4035380
Foreward: Some of the wording might have come off a little annoyed, but I couldn't really think of a way to retread some of the stuff from earlier and its been a long day. Its not intentional, so apologies if anything comes off as such. A lot of it seems to stem from our definitions of agency itself, so that makes both arguments more subjective.
Sure, but I don't see how that's relevant. We're discussing the agency between a survivor on the floor and a killer when survivors are in the exit gate, base kit. Ignoring that some killers can actually get kills in the exit gate, a killer has the agency to force the survivors to leave under threat of being hooked. In comparison, the survivor base kit cannot do anything except crawl. My point against OP's was this - survivors get the abandon feature because there is nothing they can do if the opponent wants to waste their time. Conversely, the killer can attack the survivors to force them to stop wasting theirs.I entirely disagree on that based on agency as a concept. See my previous posts in the topic about it, because I even gave examples of how the way killer "agency" works would look on survivor. You're too focused on the asymmetry that you're missing the commonalities, and if I'm understanding you correctly, your concept of agency is limited to
your character does things when you press the buttons, maybe tertiary bonuses like BPmore thanyour character can make meaningful progress without relying on their opponent actively allowing it.I've already gone into my stance on agency in this topic a bit earlier, as well as explained how checkmate scenarios exist for killers, but think of it kinda like this: If someone in an FPS takes the lead and then glitches out of bounds so their opponent cannot kill them, that doesn't stop the opponent from having any of their mobility, actions, or even have input be taken from them. It simply removes their objective from being possible in that scenario, creating a dead man walking loss. Kinda like in an old point and click adventure if you forgot a key item back in chapter 2, but the game didn't have the decency to just finish you so you could reload and not waste time. Both sides have the ability to have their agency taken away in both micro and macro play, but as soon as it is taken for the remainder of the match, only one side gets to leave while the other gets to balance patience and potential humiliation.
The real answer is because BHVR is lazy and didn't want to program a system that would check every single edge case to make sure survivors didn't have a way to come back. If it were up to me, those edge cases would be included in the system, but it's not up to me.If its lazy, unfortunately that doesn't make it justifiable. Half baked plastifixes solve one problem to cause 4 more down the line. They could easily have exceptions for the mechanic based on portions of a loadout, even if they were as lazy as to just disable it in the presence of specific perks on a per survivor basis. But again, zero effort, zero thought, and zero announcement of planning.
I mean, maybe this is just a difference of opinion. Agency is the player's ability to influence happenings within the game.I think that would be better described as input. Using the TF2 example, you can do pretty much everything except shoot (even stuff like double jumps iirc) and it removes any and all effective impact you have on the game. By your definition, your agency would be being able to run into the enemy to get killed faster, or attempt to hide and get found instantly 90% of the time. Just like how swatting out at the gates could lead to a hook or kill, but that is a fringe case that, past a certain point, specifically requires the survivor to allow it to happen. I specify that because as my posts point out, I would only really be ok with killer's getting the ability to specifically abandon in checkmate scenarios, not checks like the survivors currently can.
When a survivor is slugged base kit and the killer wants them to bleed out, that survivor has zero agency in the situation.Haven't been able to play for a bit, but did the anti slug get scrapped as well? I know they were tinkering with it and making it even better, but haven't been keeping up with how much gets kept and how much gets thrown out lately. If not, then no, that would be a check as long as there are means to be picked up (teammates are basekit) and would require any and all ability to be picked up to be a check mate (even all 4 down is still technically a check, though it could be a checkmate if zero survivors had any means through perks to pick themselves up) as even a single perk like UB or Conviction across the whole team (always remember, survivors are the shared agency role) would be enough to keep reasonable potential for a reset. Hell self unhooking would as well, and while something like the AFC version probably wouldn't do anything, deliverance or wicked could lead to a reset. Then you add perks like resurgence to give the reset and even better chance.
My point is a real checkmate would be all 4 survivors in the exit gate, positioned so they will fall past the exit gate when downed, and there is no basekit solution to that for killer. There isn't even really a perk IIRC, just specific killer powers and addons if memory serves. This absolutely can reach those levels on the survivor side, but that type of checkmate is far more strict than how the disconnect system works.
Crawling and recovering are their only options, neither of which will change the outcome of waiting 4 minutes.And if two survivors decide to forever hide, at any point in the game, they can delay the game for up to 10 minutes per remaining gen and/or regression event. Killer gets bored after 9 minutes and decides to kick a gen to flex their "agency?" Just added another 10 minutes to the timer. People seem to think killers can never have checkmates because they carry a weapon, when survivors have an objective that doesn't even rely on one.
Killers in EGC have plenty of agency though; ignoring the possibility of kills basekit and assuming a killer like trapper, I can still prevent a 2 minute time waste.We have differing opinions on what constitutes agency, so I can understand your reasoning. However, the thing about your definition is that it ignores concepts like checks and checkmates entirely, as well as all the examples I've given in the topic. If you are playing something like a fighting game and you got touch of death combo perfected every single round, how much agency did you have? How about if you get spawncamped the entire game in an FPS? You start with agency until it is robbed from you, its not just your inputs moving a character onscreen, nor is it purposely walking to your doom to speed up your your loss of the match, which is why I've brought up TF2 so many times.
Now, if you mean agency as in "the killer has to watch the opponents teabag or waste 2 minutes", then yeah, there's nothing you can really do about that. But I don't think being teabagged (or WS'd by the killer) is enough to warrant an abandon in any situation where that can be the outcome.What I mean by agency is that the player has zero realistic ability to have their personal input influence the game in their favor, most notably toward their objective. If a survivor can't use any action commands on gens or other survivors, they would have limited agency since they would still be able to interact with the killer and resources. If they lost that as well, and could only move, they would still have the ability to sandbag themselves but would have zero agency. The only possibility they would have of a positive outcome would require their teammates to use their agency to compensate for the lack, as they would be unable to physically advance their goal and the only impact they could have would involve the killer willfully giving it to them (chasing them and ignoring the rest of the team enough for gens to be finished, or being ignored and having a shot at hatch.)
Again, it's the agency that comes from this being an asymmetrical game. Because of the way killer works, they have agency in any time wasting situation survivors will never have by way of always being able to injure, down, and hook them. An equivalent situation for killer would be one of the old exploits where you could sit below a drop and the killer drop and then would be stuck on top of your head, unable to do anything and completely at mercy of the survivor below them until the server times out or they move.Basically, the main source of our disagreement is about the application of the concept of agency to the game. The interesting thing is that this was exactly why the anti-tunneling mechanic bombed as bad as it did, that type of baseline couldn't be established by the community nor the devs (even though they apparently know a third way to tunnel, but just trust them bro.) Also, now that survivors can abandon in so many non-checkmate situations, it kinda kills this argument. And can you not think of a single situation where a killer cannot "injure, down, and hook them?" People have known how to position themselves to fall out of the exit gate for years, its basekit, only specific killers can do anything about it, and it makes it impossible to ever hook or even pick them up. Thats nowhere near as extreme as things like OOB, locker clipping, or immobilization exploits (which are pretty much all gone, thankfully.)
Again, I feel like the main source of the schism is coming from your definition of agency. You keep switching around on whether even simple mobility and input recognition is what determines it, yet survivors still have that when crawling. They only lose that during animation locks (like the killer pickup animation) but they are always able to relocate as well as crawl through the hatch if it has spawned and they find it. The latter of which straight up nullifies both the loss and the win for their opponent, so while niche, I would argue it's technically still more agency than swatting out at the exit. At least you have luck as a potential to see your goal rather than having to rely specifically on your opponent willingly giving it to you.
Just think of it this way, the more variety a game offers you, the more agency you have. Multiple endings, multiple characters, weapons, all of those extrapolations allow the player to have more direct control over how the game plays out for them. Your literal button input is much smaller than your overall input into games themselves, and it goes beyond the mechanical. Agency is essentially choice.
Foreward
yeah no worries here. Just a discussion happening between two forum users.
if I'm understanding you correctly, your concept of agency is limited to
your character does things when you press the buttons, maybe tertiary bonuses like BPmore thanyour character can make meaningful progress without relying on their opponent actively allowing it.Not entirely. If that were the case then I would argue survivors on the ground basekit have agency, just having a character respond to your inputs isn't enough. I think our definitions are pretty similar (agency is the ability to progress/change the outcome or situation in your favor) and we're just looking at the situation differently.
I've already gone into my stance on agency in this topic a bit earlier, as well as explained how checkmate scenarios exist for killers, but think of it kinda like this: If someone in an FPS takes the lead and then glitches out of bounds so their opponent cannot kill them, that doesn't stop the opponent from having any of their mobility, actions, or even have input be taken from them. It simply removes their objective from being possible in that scenario, creating a dead man walking loss. Kinda like in an old point and click adventure if you forgot a key item back in chapter 2, but the game didn't have the decency to just finish you so you could reload and not waste time. Both sides have the ability to have their agency taken away in both micro and macro play, but as soon as it is taken for the remainder of the match, only one side gets to leave while the other gets to balance patience and potential humiliation.
From what I gather, your argument is that in certain situations, you can be in a scenario where your opponents have made it impossible to change the outcome of the match in your favor (like the FPS example). And as a killer in that scenario you should be able to abandon.
I guess for example, playing against survivors that know how to point and heal tech that are all standing against the edge of the escape part of the gate while you are playing wraith. In a scenario like this, regardless of what you do, the only way the outcome will change is relying on the opponent to make a mistake, which realistically will not happen, correct?
I was arguing against what someone else had said, which is that there is no agency in reducing the time waste aspect. If your objective is simply to end the match as fast as possible and move on after your loss, survivors on the ground don't have agency in that (without the abandon feature), but killers in EGC do.
However, from the point of view of "do you have agency if your goal is to progress your objective", with "objective" being hook states or survivor deaths, then I can agree with you that there are scenarios as described above where the killer has none.
This, I think, is where difference of opinion kicks in, I think even in an unwinnable scenario that relies only on opponent mistakes you should still play it out for sportsmanship's sake. In a 2v1 at 5 gens, a similarly hopeless scenario that relies on opponent mistakes, I would not give survivors an abandon option either. But I can respect and understand your opinion that in cases like these or killers in EGC that there should be one, and that not everyone thinks the same way I do.
If its lazy, unfortunately that doesn't make it justifiable. Half baked plastifixes solve one problem to cause 4 more down the line. They could easily have exceptions for the mechanic based on portions of a loadout, even if they were as lazy as to just disable it in the presence of specific perks on a per survivor basis. But again, zero effort, zero thought, and zero announcement of planning.
I agree, and I wish they did it that way. It really kills the momentum of the team when someone abandons when multiple players have perks like conviction and unbreakable.
Haven't been able to play for a bit, but did the anti slug get scrapped as well?
Sadly, completely scrapped. No increased crawling speed, no self pickup, no crawling and recovering. All that made it through was 5 more seconds of basekit BT and tweaks to the anti-facecamp self unhook system (which make it harder to camp/proxy camp).
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A majority of Ormond Lake Mine pallets are unsafe…
All hill/divot pallets are incredibly unsafe and easily outplayed. Main has two strong pallets (stairs pallet and the one in the back on second floor) and that’s it. The jungle gyms are plenty separated such that you can’t connect them, all the unique fillers are weak, and double pallets can spawn, but after forcing one down and breaking it it’s gone for good.
The cylindrical tower and underground sections have outplayable pallets that you can also just break to make them unsafe for the rest of the game. Shack exists, but most of the gens spawn by main so you can choose to ignore it if you want.
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I don't mind him, but it's very much map dependent. His strike is fine, if you have any resources around you can probably hold W and be safe, but if you're on a map with a lot of nothing (many maps as of the recent update) then you're in for a bad time. If you have a decent amount of windows on the map then you have a lot of outplay potential. Not having to hop in a locker to outplay random tombstones and not having someone get mori'd at 5 gens in solo queue is nice. And I actually like that he's able to mori anyone on death hook in tier 3.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4035169#Comment_4035169
Survivors can abandon after being picked up from dying state twice and being put into dying state a 3rd time. I wouldn't exactly call that a checkmate situation.
If the killer player doesn't want to play out the final 2 minutes of the match, let's not force them.
I don't agree with that abandon condition either, but the way I understand it, it's meant to be a "this survivor has been downed 3 times, if the killer was hooking they would be dead" as a form of preventing time wasting via 4 man slugging until bleed out. But we already have an abandon if everyone is downed and your team can still help you, so not sure why that feature is here. It has ruined so many easily winnable games.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4035150#Comment_4035150
Here's the wonderful thing about giving killers the option to abandon in EGC. If they feel like they have something they can do to change the outcome of the match, they don't have to abandon. Why force killers who lack the tools to catch survivors waiting in the exit gates to teabag to waste time when they should have the option to move on to the next match?
I don't think an abandon option is warranted when the killer can push the survivors out, that's my opinion. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4035150#Comment_4035150
Pushing survivors out isn't any more agency than hatch standoffs were. The entire situation was caused by two people refusing to accept defeat, knowing that their action would only result in loss unless it was a reaction. If the survivors are far enough in the exit gate that you would not be able to pick them up after a blade wipe, not even getting into things like heal tech, how is that agency? And if its not over yet, then why is it ok for survivor abandon to ignore so many perks and mechanics that can be used to prolong the game for them?
I can understand arguments about the mechanical nature of the game itself, like how there are no killer bots so a killer abandon is a hard cut to the results screen for all parties, but I will never understand the selective nature people use regarding what they consider player agency, as they never seem to reconcile between sides. If survivors could actively humiliate themselves in order to cancel a mori animation instead of having to sit through it, they would be more comparable. Like some kind of self induced Mortal Kombat babality or friendship or something. Instead one side gets to avoid the situation entirely while the other has to actively deal with it while being subjected to the grace of their opponent(s). Its almost like these things can affect player mindsets going into other matches, and lead to them doing everything they can to ensure they don't wind up there again. And we all love the strategies and choices that leads to.
It really is something that should have a more elegant solution, and it should be equally applicable to both sides, instead of just favoring one and mostly ignoring the other. A lack of player agency in endgame (and in general) is an across the isle issue, so it begs the question of what the meaning behind half the abandon conditions is actually supposed to be.
Several killers also have a basekit way to kill a survivor if they're trying to stay in the exit gate and leave last second.And many more don't. Even perks like blood warden require hooking someone during that time, so its only ever a threat if someone is outside the gates to be hooked.
If I'm slugged as survivor, there is nothing I can do basekit to speed up the wait time of 4 minutes on the ground.This is something that absolutely needed addressing, which is why it always baffles me what the line is for people when comparing the roles. Is it the duration? Because killers can absolutely have more than 4 minutes of their time wasted through things like excessive hiding. They can do it for up to 10 IIRC. The lack of movement? If survivors could zoom around at sprint burst speed on the ground but were unable to escape or interact toward their objective in any way until the match ends, would that somehow be better? How about if they could actively grovel for the same amount of time it takes to swat multiple survivors out? We should have a better solution that addresses the unified issue of
one side being able to stall victory to waste their opponent's timerather than multiple smaller ones between mechanics like abandons and self pickups that very clearly favor one side in consideration.In lieu of that, they could at least try something like (off the top of my head) allowing the killer to close a gate and auto eject any survivors in it out of the match if, say, 50% of remaining survivors are in it. That way if its just one, smack em, but if its a matter of lingering in the safe zone, pushing out can be done more efficiently. It could even lead to situations where any remaining survivors who get left behind form a "second round" to endgame. Maybe adjust the EGC timer or show any remaining survivors the gate switch auras for a few seconds when it closes to give them a chance to come up with a gameplan. Ideas like that obviously take testing and ironing out, but again, not even on the radar.
Pushing survivors out isn't any more agency than hatch standoffs were.
Sure, but I don't see how that's relevant. We're discussing the agency between a survivor on the floor and a killer when survivors are in the exit gate, base kit. Ignoring that some killers can actually get kills in the exit gate, a killer has the agency to force the survivors to leave under threat of being hooked. In comparison, the survivor base kit cannot do anything except crawl. My point against OP's was this - survivors get the abandon feature because there is nothing they can do if the opponent wants to waste their time. Conversely, the killer can attack the survivors to force them to stop wasting theirs.
And if its not over yet, then why is it ok for survivor abandon to ignore so many perks and mechanics that can be used to prolong the game for them?
The real answer is because BHVR is lazy and didn't want to program a system that would check every single edge case to make sure survivors didn't have a way to come back. If it were up to me, those edge cases would be included in the system, but it's not up to me.
I will never understand the selective nature people use regarding what they consider player agency, as they never seem to reconcile between sides.
I mean, maybe this is just a difference of opinion. Agency is the player's ability to influence happenings within the game. When a survivor is slugged base kit and the killer wants them to bleed out, that survivor has zero agency in the situation. Crawling and recovering are their only options, neither of which will change the outcome of waiting 4 minutes. Killers in EGC have plenty of agency though; ignoring the possibility of kills basekit and assuming a killer like trapper, I can still prevent a 2 minute time waste. Now, if you mean agency as in "the killer has to watch the opponents teabag or waste 2 minutes", then yeah, there's nothing you can really do about that. But I don't think being teabagged (or WS'd by the killer) is enough to warrant an abandon in any situation where that can be the outcome.
This is something that absolutely needed addressing, which is why it always baffles me what the line is for people when comparing the roles. Is it the duration? Because killers can absolutely have more than 4 minutes of their time wasted through things like excessive hiding. They can do it for up to 10 IIRC. The lack of movement? If survivors could zoom around at sprint burst speed on the ground but were unable to escape or interact toward their objective in any way until the match ends, would that somehow be better? How about if they could actively grovel for the same amount of time it takes to swat multiple survivors out? We should have a better solution that addresses the unified issue of
one side being able to stall victory to waste their opponent's timerather than multiple smaller ones between mechanics like abandons and self pickups that very clearly favor one side in consideration.Again, it's the agency that comes from this being an asymmetrical game. Because of the way killer works, they have agency in any time wasting situation survivors will never have by way of always being able to injure, down, and hook them. An equivalent situation for killer would be one of the old exploits where you could sit below a drop and the killer drop and then would be stuck on top of your head, unable to do anything and completely at mercy of the survivor below them until the server times out or they move.
In lieu of that, they could at least try something like (off the top of my head) allowing the killer to close a gate and auto eject any survivors in it out of the match if, say, 50% of remaining survivors are in it. That way if its just one, smack em, but if its a matter of lingering in the safe zone, pushing out can be done more efficiently. It could even lead to situations where any remaining survivors who get left behind form a "second round" to endgame. Maybe adjust the EGC timer or show any remaining survivors the gate switch auras for a few seconds when it closes to give them a chance to come up with a gameplan. Ideas like that obviously take testing and ironing out, but again, not even on the radar.
I wouldn't mind something like this heading to PTB. Would be interesting to see.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4035075#Comment_4035075
…and once every Survivor is in the exit gates, there's nothing left for the Killer to do either.
People are only opposed to one of these qualifying for an abandon, though.
Push them out?
Several killers also have a basekit way to kill a survivor if they're trying to stay in the exit gate and leave last second.
If I'm playing trapper for example and I walk to the gate, at most I have to left click a few times per survivor to push them out. If I'm slugged as survivor, there is nothing I can do basekit to speed up the wait time of 4 minutes on the ground.
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@TheLockdownGamer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4035123#Comment_4035123
Isn’t doing a gen a conspicuous action too, it would remove the protection.
No, not using the conspicuous action system. If you used that, then they could follow the killer to do a flashlight save, pallet save, etc which is not a conspicuous action. Only the actions I listed above. Because then the "tunneled" survivor can sit on the objective and force the killer to look for other survivors to chase, or lose the game.
That said, I don't think allowing an unhooked survivor to sit on a gen immune is a good change, but it would kill tunneling which is what the OP asked.
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I don’t BM (ingame or in endgame chat) unless the opponents start it. If there is no BM, I type “ggwp all gl next” and leave. Aside from that everything else is fair game.
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@Shirtless_Myers said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931251#Comment_3931251
Why does this read as if ChatGPT created it? Honestly, if you're going to put out an opinion, take the effort to write it yourself.
Good observation, and that’s because chatGPT did. You can see it with the arrow symbols, bullet points, double dash symbols, and phrases like “it’s not about X - it’s about Y”.
I’m giving the OP the benefit of the doubt and assuming that he is using because of a language barrier or just to help him write better, because there are sections that were clearly not written by chatGPT.
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Simple, base kit survivors lose if they’re left on the ground. They cannot pick themselves up without perks, and cannot escape the killer’s grasp unless the killer picks them up, which the killer doesn’t have to do. Not only are the survivors unable to do anything to win, they are also unable to do anything to speed up the 4 minute bleed timer basekit.
Now flip the scenario around to killer with an exit gate open. Already the scenario is different. Although EGC has started, the game state can be anything from 3 survivors on hooks to 4 survivors teabagging at the gate. And base kit, especially for some killers, the opportunity to get a better result or outright win is still there. (I’m sure I don’t have to show you any of the thousands of “just leave” killer clips.) And even if the killer cannot win or improve their result, they can force the survivors to leave and speed up the process. They are not stuck waiting 2 minutes like a survivor would be waiting out the 4 minute bleed timer.
Another reason this probably isn’t implemented is because BHVR doesn’t have working killer bots for every killer yet (though we know they had basic ones for 2v8). So if the killer abandons, then the game probably just ends, which would make certain archive challenges and achievements impossible. Because survivors are replaced with a bot, killers can still get theirs, but getting an endgame rescue achievement or similar would become nearly impossible if killers could abandon in EGC without becoming replaced with a bot.
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Yeah you could, but I don’t know if it would be a good idea.
Imagine this change: once unhooked, a survivor is immune to being damaged by any means but cannot cleanse, bless, sabotage, blind or stun. So tunneling is now impossible, the unhooked guy can sit on a gen and be immune. And the only way to remove this protection is to hook someone else. Bam, tunneling basically removed. I don’t think this change would be healthy for the game though…
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BHVR has mentioned that they already tested survivors losing collision with the killer internally with their consultants (experienced players). And unfortunately the outcome is that you can simply bodyblock for your unhooker even easier with this.
Unless you mean cannot interact as “cannot hit”, which is interesting as an idea but would require some balancing.
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Rescuing someone from the killer’s grasp is not bullying. Many people get bored of typical DBD gameplay and decide to mess around with sabo and other forms of saves because there is more interactivity with the killer.
As for people who *actually* bully killers (endgame chat and constant BM), it’s a power trip thing. The same reason people slugged everyone on the ground for 4 minutes and WSWS’d before the abandon option.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
it was abused by surviviors, they always would choose macmillan or azarov
You're forgetting the endless wave of Badham offerings, actually. I saw way more of those than Azarov's or Macmillan offerings.
The pallet density update was not fine either, it was incredibly busted. The adjustment to it was not okay either, though.
For me it was Eyrie of crows. I swear I saw that map so much when map offerings were around…
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I just turn on the game, stare at lobby and… turn off the game.
I have felt the same before, about DBD and other games. Maybe what worked for me will work for you, try taking a break from the game and playing/doing something else instead. For me at that time, logging into DBD felt more like a chore than having a fun time, so I tried other things that were fun and interesting until the idea of playing DBD felt fun and fresh again.
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If you bring Friends til the end, it is impossible to get the Grim curse because obsession will switch before you can leave the hook to activate Grim ;)
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Video removed by uploader, youtube error on my end or video taken down?
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I play to win by any means necessary. That includes tunneling. If it were up to me, I would willingly only play against people who feel the same. However, it is not up to me, so instead I just play to win in hopes that BHVR’s MMR system will do its job and pair me against people who are trying just as hard as I am.
Stomps are not fun. Intentionally not punishing survivor mistakes to make an easy game close is also not fun for me. I understand a lot of people feel differently about that.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4033815#Comment_4033815
Nah, a lot of games if you get bad randoms the game is already lost.
Somewhat true but it's way worse in this game.
In any team based PVP game, you can win just by killing all the enemies if you outskill them. If I load up CS2 and have perfect aim and positioning with an AWP, I will win every round even if my teammates are all asleep. My skill and input matter regardless of my teammates.
In DBD, versus any killer that is smart enough to know "don't chase the best player, leave them to do gens", I am mathematically unable to carry if my teammates are bad enough. Which, granted, is fine, because this is a team based game. What isn't fine is how bad and loose DBD's matchmaking can be at times to provide ridiculously lopsided matches. BHVR has prioritized queue times so much that most average matches are complete stomps, one way or another.
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I can't speak for anyone else, but personally I dislike SM because her power is boring. She's encouraged to plop out drones off cooldown for constant undetectable, and she can stack them in areas to make basic map traversal (in or out of chase) super annoying. Hacking drones to disable them is cool on paper, but in practice 45 seconds isn't that long, and she can instantly recall a hacked drone whenever she wants and just replace it, so it often ends up being a waste of time. The chase is just simple M1 with the occasional "spam drone rotation for a scan". And especially in solo queue, undetectable killers on certain maps are snoozefests as your options are either give them a free tag/down by working gens, or be boring and hold a safe spot whenever you have no information on the HUD to know where they are.
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BHVR needs to do something with MMR. I should not be able to go on a 60+ game win streak on survivor and have 5k hours then get matched with players with 100 hours on both my team and against me.
It is impossible to play as a team and coordinate when my meg is stealthing while someone else is chased, my adam is instantly farming the tunnel out off hook, and every other game is an instant DC/give up.
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@Ghostofsnow said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4034157#Comment_4034157
I don't want an abandon feature, i just want the game to be engaging. all an abandon feature does is just kick the can further while still letting the worst matches possible happen which is just lousy.
Hell, i wouldn't even care if the pick up effect doesn't charge if I'm near a pallet or a team mate is standing up near me. i just want something that deters some of the worst 'game play' in any game popular game I've seen that doesn't boil down to 'this player hit you so now you can bleed out here, or slowly crawl away'
I'd like to think I'm being reasonableI agree with you, but considering every time they've tried anything for slugging it gets a ton of pushback and gets cancelled, I think we probably won't be seeing anything more than abandon conditions for a while.
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It’s insanely good. 15 seconds lines up perfectly with the safe unhook time, which makes it harder to deny deliverance (you now have to hit twice rather than waiting it out). In most cases, if the killer wants to tunnel, they’re forced to hit you or let you make a resource. And the 5 extra seconds of haste doesn’t seem like a lot, but it helps you reach the right death spot.
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I feel for you brother.
This pallet density update means you are basically playing 50/50s like a 1v1 ladder match at every pallet, even worse if the killer has a chase power. And solo queue has almost nothing to help them coordinate and counterplay killer macro.
Hope the devs make the experience better for you soon, or you find a game that is more fun for you if they don’t.