almofan1001
almofan1001
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@Grumblephant said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3279623#Comment_3279623
Buddy, I'm in the camp that camping, slugging, and tunneling, while unfair strategies, are still strategies. Heck, there are killers made for those purposes. I'll be salty still if I get tunneled out, but that's still a legitimate part of the match. But like I said, doing gens depends on the situation as a whole. Obviously someone new is going to get me to help them farm points, no sweat.
The problem with your "salt" is that it probably also comes in undermining the killer's achievements, like telling that the killer was "no skill", "bad", etc even though they got 4K. This is just an assumption from my side about you, but survivors are very rarely salty without attacking killers.
So survivors often refer to insults, especially regarding the killer's gameplay choices, but the same is very rarely said to the survivor's side when they do barely any skilful activities and still manage to pump out gens and/or escape. In this case, a killer has every reason to be salty about survivors too.
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@tippy2k2 said:
I'm just going to assume for my own sanity that this is a fun little satire goof and not someone who legitimately believes these things
This is not satire and it was never intended to be that way.
Survivors don't like the killer doing X things because it's unfun/interactive/no counterplay.
Killers also don't like survivor's doing Y things because it's unfun/interactive/no counterplay.
Both sides agree to limit/minimize doing these things, and the end result = everyone is having more fun.
What's hard to get?
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@Hermit said:
LMAO, you are funny... actually, this is quite sad tbh
What is sad? You're not contributing anything to the discussion and just saying nonsense.
Players do deserve to know how the game is playtested given very questionable game delivery updates. It's been like this for years and the situation is not getting better, but worse.
If they release their testing methodology and there is nothing wrong with it - then it's completely fair and we can't criticize BHVR. The conclusion will be that game is barely manageable, and devs cannot be criticized for bugs as the testing process is as good as it can get given the circumstances.
However, if there are things to improve, then devs get useful feedback and can manage their game better.
I mean clearly, something is wrong internally, maybe it's time to go public if the mess cannot be solved internally (and it clearly can't)
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@Grumblephant said:
I'm going to try and be as respectful as possible. A majority of the time it depends on the situation.
Chill out with the gens: I'm sorry but no, I'm gonna try to finish gens asap. I may not bring a spare part or the best toolbox, but using Prove Thyself and Deja Vue, I'm going to try and finish to escape. That is the main goal of the game. Now to agree with this point, if its a killer who is obviously having a bad time, IE 3 gens done and no one has been downed at all, I will go do what you say. But if its been hook after hook, I'm rushing gens.
Chill out with SWF: I don't use SWF, DBD is more authentic without comms.
Don't Tunnel Gens: I disagree, see point one.
Don't hold W: Bro, I need every help I can get when getting away. I can't loop for beans so I'm going to run the best I can.
Try to avoid God Pallets: I don't even know what a God pallet is so see point four.
Again, I mean these as respectful as possible from the viewpoint of a casual gamer with over 100 hours. Otherwise, you have good intentions and I can respect that. :)
Lots of survivors say that killers CAN'T criticize survivors doing gens fast because it's "their objective". Would you also agree that survivors can't criticize killers for maximising their efficiency in killing survivors because that's their objective too?
If you agree with that statement, then fair deal. If not, then I would like to hear your thoughts and rationale for why not.
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@Colton147147 said:
Killers are much more weak-minded than survivors.
Based on what? The killer is multitudes more stressful than a survivor, in addition to DBD being 1v4 game, in addition with all stupid gatekeeping done by survivors on how to play the game, in addition to SWF, in addition to...
I can keep going on and on. The killer is just more stressful and requires much more mental fortitude to win games. Survivor is extremely chill and forgiving most of the time.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3267970#Comment_3267970
"The nurse was even stronger in the past and there was even more busted stuff for the killer. And yet survivors wouldn't give up that easily back then."
How many players from 2016/2017 still play frequently? It's much more likely newer players who aren't used to the jank and the bullshit combined further with experienced players who just can't be bothered to put up with it anymore.
I know back in 2017 and 2018 I could go an entire play session of terrible games and leave in a good mood. Now a single terrible game has me closing dbd for the night and playing Coral Island or PVZ2 instead
So why are you closing DBD now instantly after a bad game?
SoloQ wasn't nerfed in any way during 2022. In fact, SoloQ is even buffed I'd say due to base kit BT. There were many more noobs back then in the past with urban evasion and self-care. I refuse to believe this argument of "nea urban evading" or "meg self-caring in a corner" is what happens in most SoloQ games. It would make sense back then because meta wasn't that fleshed out, but now most survivors run meta builds.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
"So what is up with survivors lately? Why are they so easy to give up and easily ruin the game for their teammates?"
When you've had one too many awful solo games (read: any solo games) it's incredibly easy to see a pattern forming. A Nurse who's already proven herself to have range addons and the PR/DMS fun combo vs solos just isn't winnable, so you'll have more fun going next. Same with the proven Alch Crow Blight who's definitely got OverBrine if how he's been playing is any indication.
Now people that suicide 1st hook vs Sadako I have no idea about, but I'm also well aware that it could have nothing to do with the killer at all. If Meg decides to blow up the gen, urban evade away, and then hide in a Bush for 3 minutes while I get chased on the opposite side of the map, I know that I'm going to be absolutely malding and, again, it just isn't winnable with an anteammate like that. Same if someone sandbags me, especially if they do so early into the match.
The nurse was even stronger in the past and there was even more busted stuff for the killer. And yet survivors wouldn't give up that easily back then.
It's obviously a chain reaction that is caused by some kind of community circlejerk IMO. Or perhaps a large part of the DBD player base is burnt out as there are lots of long-term players by now. The game is very stale due to the base game not changing much.
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@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3256231#Comment_3256231
ahahahhahaa. I can win. I am best. But please please please please please nerf this thing that is so unfair and unfun and overall is killing all the kittens in the world every time it's used. It does not work when you are healthy, exhausted, bleeding, in the open, if the killer has bad ping, if servers are overburdened, but otherwise it has 0 counterplay. naaaaaaaa mommmeeee please nerf those dead hards for meeeeeeee....
Thanks mate. You made my day :D
Says the guy who complains about "4K by slugging". You guys always find ways to somehow beat the low lows. "Servers are overburdened" LMFAO.
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@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3256034#Comment_3256034
Dh is perk that I never use, because it's unfair. Unfair in a way, that it does NOT work as it should. Because it does not proc when you use it, but when the server decides you pressed it. Meaning if killer has unstable network, you can be super pro player with perfect timings and everything and it will still proc as hit and you'll go down. And as I play on EU - you can very easily get people from asia or bordering asia as well as people from same city - so you can't even predict it (because in same situation it can proc one time and not the other time).
For a perk that is "guaranteed 3rd state without any counterplay" I don't like that it's "worst counterplay" is outside of gameplay intentions. Also DH has also quite a few conditions - same as any other exhaustion perk. You need to be not exhausted (so no fearmonger) and you need to be not bleeding AND you need to be already injured - so no legion, no original pain on pinhead, no BT hit, no OTR hit, no insta down killer or insta down effect .... the list is quite long for a thing that has no counterplay and 0 conditions.
Admit it. You can't chase well and are searching for shortcuts and instead of admitting that you are just not good enough - you instead look at the forum so that devs do the work for you.
Dh is perk that I never use, because it's unfair. Unfair in a way, that it does NOT work as it should. Because it does not proc when you use it, but when the server decides you pressed it. Meaning if killer has unstable network, you can be super pro player with perfect timings and everything and it will still proc as hit and you'll go down. And as I play on EU - you can very easily get people from asia or bordering asia as well as people from same city - so you can't even predict it (because in same situation it can proc one time and not the other time).
If you're complaining about latency then it's all I need to know about your DH usage. Learn to time it. DH was hard messed up when dedicated servers came out, that's when latency was an issue. Now you just need to adapt, it's not an excuse.
same as any other exhaustion perk
DH is usable literally anywhere, as long as you can time it right. And even if you cannot time it right, you can still use it near a pallet.
you need to be not bleeding
?
no BT hit, no OTR hit,
Good, at least they had the sense to put this one.
no insta down killer or insta down effect
? You can use it against GF, Myers, Bubba (after 1st charge likely, not before 1st one), Hillybilly, Oni, etc. Literally what?
the list is quite long for a thing that has no counterplay and 0 conditions.
Yes, it does not have counterplay if used properly, but I never said its conditions. DH conditions are simply not even close to other exhaustion perks conditions. It's far too universal and easy to use for the effect it gives.
You can't chase well and are searching for shortcuts and instead of admitting that you are just not good enough
My chases are better than yours ever will be, and I run 3-4 antigen perks constantly universally on almost all killers. Meaning my chases are more than good and I can in chases even with the weakest killers. Nice try at projecting though - you so desperately want this to be true, I can see it.
you instead look at the forum so that devs do the work for you.
Don't need dev help to win the game, mate. I can win against 4 men dead-hard team constantly, but that doesn't mean the perk is fun to play against or fair. You're so desperately trying to project onto me that I am a bad player, but it just doesn't work, unfortunately. Meanwhile I look into your post history and there are 2 posts asking devs to add insane changes to counter-camping and tunnelling. Really? This is very ironic now. Also that "Slugging for 4K" post is amazing lol! 🤭
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@bunnyfengenthusiast said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3256034#Comment_3256034
Why did you bother typing all this up when you knew in advance I wasn't gonna read it? Is it really that important for you to have the final word to feel like you won? Fine, go ahead and get the last word in.
Because it is a discussion, and you're not the only one participating in it? You're not that important, so don't respond if you don't feel like responding and/or don't have counterarguments. Enjoy your day psychologist, lol.
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@bunnyfengenthusiast said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3255668#Comment_3255668
You are correct if the assumption is that I go against the same survivors as you do - i.e. baby survivors. Totally agreed in such case.
Aaaand there it is. The old reliable "I'm a better player so I know more" when you have no real arguments left. We're done here, you're not interested in a conversation, you just want someone to confirm your beliefs and tell you that it's the evil Dead Hard that's causing you to lose chases/games. You have a severe negativity bias clouding your judgement and it's severely affecting how you think about the perk. You're making a special exception for how DH is uncounterable (because it can be set up in a way that it will give guaranteed value) without considering that Sprint Burst, Lithe, Balanced, and other exhaustion perks are also "uncounterable" (as in, the killer has no counterplay beyond extending the chase once they're used). But good luck trying to get anyone to take you seriously with that attitude.
As a parting note, I'll leave you with this thought: even if Dead Hard's sole mechanic was reworked to give you those extra 10 inches to reach a pallet safely, removing all its other possible utility altogether, it would still be completely fine. Stew on that for a while.
Sprint Burst, Lithe, Balanced, and other exhaustion perks are also "uncounterable" (as in, the killer has no counterplay beyond extending the chase once they're used).
First of all, they have clear disadvantages to survivors themselves - so even if it was uncounterable, there are negatives which survivor has to endure. Starting with maps, and ending with conditions. The negatives are not comparable to DH as it can be used pretty much universally on most maps and requires a pallet.
Second of all, there is more counterplay than you seem to acknowledge.
Sprint Burst - you can drop chase immediately when they let go of gen and sprint burst and then come back again with minimal repercussions.
Balanced Landing - you can zone people off high points/chase them in certain areas where they cannot proc it (you can't zone dead hard, there is no such thing)
Lithe - same story with BL, except that you can also make them take bad pathing after their vault which means that they get little to no value of it (you can't zone dead hard, and most paths that they can take after pallet are still decent for them because there are more pallets than windows and usually pallets are placed in better positions than windows for further routing)
Lastly, you also seem to ignore the fact that a lot of exhaustion perks are used before the first hit is delivered. Sprint burst, balanced landing and lithe are usually used before the first hit. Dropping a chase in such scenarios is much less expensive to the killer, than chasing + getting a hit + dead hard proc + dropping chase. It's not even comparable. The closest you can compare this is if you hold 99 Sprint Burst which is used very rarely. In that case, I agree that it's on equal footing with dead hard in terms of time waste.
The old reliable "I'm a better player so I know more" when you have no real arguments left
You haven't answered any other arguments, why should I provide new ones?
We're done here, you're not interested in a conversation, you just want someone to confirm your beliefs and tell you that it's the evil Dead Hard that's causing you to lose chases/games. You have a severe negativity bias clouding your judgement and it's severely affecting how you think about the perk
Why would I want you to confirm my beliefs when I don't even acknowledge you as someone who has experience at the top level? XD It literally does not matter if you agree with me or not, all I care about is a logical discussion. 10/10 projections though.
And while DH is very strong and overly used, it doesn't lose me games most of the time - DS probably lost me more games % wise. It's simply an unfun perk with an unfun uncounterable mechanic attached to it that is picked excessively. A free 3rd health state is a disgusting mechanic that is still alive somehow after so-called "rework". Do other exhaustion perks also waste my time? Absolutely, but there are fair negatives attached to them and conditions in which they can be used thus I never complained about them in my 4 years of playing this game. Not only you have to constantly take the L with Dead Hard because of 0 counterplay, but you also have to always care for this perk "in case they have it" meaning you waste at least 2-4 seconds naturally on every down. It's a disgusting perk that needs to be either removed from the game or completely reworked.
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@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3255676#Comment_3255676
for you nothing is fair usage when it helps survivors.
For others if the percentual usage is similar to all the other meta perks - it means there is good alternative to the perk and people use those alternatives.
for you nothing is fair usage when it helps survivors.
haha, I can picture you saying this, very funny! Love it.
For others if the percentual usage is similar to all the other meta perks - it means there is good alternative to the perk and people use those alternatives.
I am fine with either reducing the pick rate or removing the mechanic which acts as an uncounterable 3rd health state. I'd say the pick rate would probably be reduced by 10 % or more and be in line with other exhaustion perks after the removal of it.
You're right that other exhaustion perks are more viable now, but that doesn't mean DH is in a fine spot. It still has an unfair mechanic that is aggravated by its pick rate. I probably would never make this post if DH wasn't picked very often, but alas that is the case.
I guess we will wait again until streamers and content creators start making clickbaity videos where they actually show DH power and soon the community will follow. Then the pick rate increases (even if it's way too high already relative to exhaustion perks, and even to ALL perks) and then the problem actually gets acknowledged haha.
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@Whoudini said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/353662/so-when-is-dead-hard-getting-properly-nerfed
It is 100% weaker than b4, the usage went down by about half. Whilst its still the most used its considerably closer to the typical perk usage rate.
Since when is being in the top 2 most used survivor perks is "closer typical perk usage rate" lol?
Why do you guys go so soft on Dead Hard? I don't get it. Sh*t like BT, DS, and Iron Will literally fell from the Top 5 to probably the Top 20 and it's fine, but DH can stay in the Top 2? Especially when it literally wasn't nerfed for 5 years.
At a minimum, it needs to be in line with other exhaustion perks, which is still a long way to go.
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@not_requested49 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3255635#Comment_3255635
It actually is, based on the usage rate
People still use it, even if it's detrimental to the team
Not seen at all in my games and I've been tracking most of my games. It's sitting at the #11 spot. The top 4 are DH, Windows of Opportunity, Off the Record and Adrenaline - in that order.
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@bunnyfengenthusiast said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3255121#Comment_3255121
And yet this perk dominates across exhaustion perks, and across ALL other perks. We've had 3 months to figure out the meta, and you think the community still overwhelmingly picks high-skill floor, highly situational and moderate reward perk? Something doesn't align here buddy. What you're saying is the community is dumb, doesn't recognize that DH doesn't give relatively constant value and should choose other exhaustion perks to cause they are more useful on average.
I'll say this once more then never again because I don't like repeating myself: if you're smacking a survivor with Dead Hard endurance, that's 100% a skill issue on your end.
You eat pallet stun then.
I'm not interested in discussing hypothetical ideals in regards to a practical scenario, but as an anecdote, I've walked through a lot of pallets against seasoned survivors that expected me to swing at the drop and used DH instead, then got a down immediately after.
Idk what MMR you're playing but in my games, players know they can use DH to either gain sprint burst or stun the killer. Seems like survivors on your level just can't use DH properly.
Considering no one can tell what their own MMR is currently, I'd say the "I play against better survivors than you" is a pretty sad non-argument. If I really wanted to be petty, I'd just flip your logic on its head and call you bad for eating Dead Hards, but I'm not gonna sink that low. Let's try to keep this objective and impersonal, yeah?
Yeah I swing too sometimes because I know they have DH and they're not looking behind for example. I know that scenario well and used it to my advantage. With that being said, such cases happen rarely. Most of the common use case is where you MUST swing or you eat a pallet.
Then eat the pallet. You get rid of one pallet and they lose their DH. That's their exhaustion perk out of the way, that you don't have to worry about being a Lithe that'll send them to the other side of the world when they vault a window, or Overcome that will send them running for 10 hours, or a 99'd SB that they'll pop right as you get close, or Balanced that will get them out of an unsafe window vault/drop. You're going out of your way to make special exceptions for why DH specifically is poorly balanced somehow compared to the other exhaustion perks, when the simple fact of the matter is it objectively provides less value than the others, by simple virtue of its value being conditional.
I'll say this once more then never again because I don't like repeating myself: if you're smacking a survivor with Dead Hard endurance, that's 100% a skill issue on your end.
You are correct if the assumption is that I go against the same survivors as you do - i.e. baby survivors. Totally agreed in such case.
I'm not interested in discussing hypothetical ideals in regards to a practical scenario, but as an anecdote, I've walked through a lot of pallets against seasoned survivors that expected me to swing at the drop and used DH instead, then got a down immediately after.
DH used at pallets with accurate timing is uncounterable for most of the killers, period. Watch some top-level survivor players and see it for yourself if you never experienced it in your own games. You can look into the killer's POV and into survivor's POV and the conclusion is the same.
Considering no one can tell what their own MMR is currently, I'd say the "I play against better survivors than you" is a pretty sad non-argument. If I really wanted to be petty, I'd just flip your logic on its head and call you bad for eating Dead Hards, but I'm not gonna sink that low. Let's try to keep this objective and impersonal, yeah?
Nothing personal, but you can't seem to grasp how dead hard can be used to its full potential which probably means that you have never seen it actually used in that way. This probably also means that you don't play against good survivors. I'm sure Dead Hard in your game looks like a D-tier perk as I can picture survivors just doing most predictable dead hards constantly, but that is not the case on my end. And calling it a "skill issue" is so completely ignorant considering you've never experienced good survivors using it thus who are you to judge what is "skilful" and what is not? The mechanic that I am talking about is very prevalent in top-level play so why does it take so long for me to explain it to you? Pick any top-tier killer streamer and they will get dumped by dead hards constantly even if they are all great players.
Then eat the pallet. You get rid of one pallet and they lose their DH. That's their exhaustion perk out of the way, that you don't have to worry about being a Lithe that'll send them to the other side of the world when they vault a window, or Overcome that will send them running for 10 hours, or a 99'd SB that they'll pop right as you get close, or Balanced that will get them out of an unsafe window vault/drop. You're going out of your way to make special exceptions for why DH specifically is poorly balanced somehow compared to the other exhaustion perks, when the simple fact of the matter is it objectively provides less value than the others, by simple virtue of its value being conditional.
Are you seriously suggesting for killer just take L and accept that he got outplayed by an uncounterable mechanic? Maybe we should add something the same for survivors - that would be funny to see the reactions. We would call it a "skilful outplay".
You really remind me of those players who suggest that it's fine if survivors pre-drop the pallets since you keep destroying them. Soon they will have no pallets left and you can win the game! It's that simple LOL!
Also, your comparison to other exhaustion perks is very ignorant. All other exhaustion perks have clear negatives to them (thus why they are balanced). DH doesn't have such clear negatives as other perks.
Sprint Burst - has the constraint of constantly having to walk
Lithe - requires windows or dropped pallets + good positioning + constraint of having to leave the loop
Balanced Landing - requires a high point + delay before its activated
Dead Hard - requires pallet? The pallet requirement is so insignificant compared to 3 other things. Finding a pallet is easier than finding a window (a good window too), and much easier than finding a high point to jump from. That's not even talking about the fact that you can also additionally use dead hard against certain killer powers easily.
I'd play against Sprint Burst/Balanced Landing/Lithe all day compared to DH just purely because they have much more counterplay than DH does. You can telegraph those exhaustion perks rather easily and they have specific conditions with which they can only work with (minus SB, but SB is overrated). DH can be telegraphed too, but there is nothing you can do in certain situations about it. For all other exhaustion perks, you have some counterplay by cutting their path, or anticipating when they are going to use it and blocking the conditions.
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@not_requested49 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/353662/so-when-is-dead-hard-getting-properly-nerfed
It's still picked a lot because noobs still try to use it. Sometimes they are successful and sometimes they are not, kind of like flashlight saves
Same reason why self care is still used a lot even tho it was nerfed
Right, pretty sure self-care is definitely not in the top 3, or even the top 5 anymore. And flashlights were never really popular compared to things like med kits. These two are not comparable to DH - vastly different pick rate.
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@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3255186#Comment_3255186
You have just proven my point.
Have a nice day
You used massive exaggerations and then projected them onto me as if you can read my mind.
Yes, I am screaming nerf everything survivor and buff everything killer. This is a such pathetic gaslighting attempt, you can do better buddy.
"You're biased" he says :^)
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@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3255172#Comment_3255172
Ok. Let me be you.
Killers have easy games. They 4k every single game.
Survivors are already so fed up, that Q times are literally instant and it takes 40-60 minutes for single killer game and if that does not happen, then it's DC anyway.
Killers got so huge buff recently, that survivors are not able to get into next loop after hit.
DS is a joke of a perk now, because even clown can counter it with single bottle and redown 2s after stun duration.
DH is 100% useless, because it fully depends on killers ping and works in 1% of all uses.
Killers got their regressions buffed so much, that most games end at 5 gens and if not, then there is 0 chance to break 3-gen that killers can guard from start of the game.
I have stats that support it and if you have stats telling otherwise, then your stats are wrong. Mine are fine though.
Do you have anything to say to this? If yes then you have 0 idea what you are talking about, because you must be low MMR
Killers have easy games. They 4k every single game.
Factually incorrect.
Survivors are already so fed up, that Q times are literally instant and it takes 40-60 minutes for single killer game and if that does not happen, then it's DC anyway.
? There are plenty of times when there is a killer BP incentive. And nothing wrong with bad survivors quitting the game, they either have to adapt and move on.
Killers got so huge buff recently, that survivors are not able to get into next loop after hit.
Yeah if you mess up your sprint burst and run into a wall, I'd assume you would not be able to make it to the next tile. Easily fixable though.
DS is a joke of a perk now, because even clown can counter it with single bottle and redown 2s after stun duration.
I've had a lot of games where I lost purely because of DS mostly because you'd not expect it. It's not a joke perk as it is balanced now. It doesn't always let you get to the next loop but that doesn't mean it's completely useless. Survivors expect a free "get away from jail" card and that's not what DS is. However, when used situationally it can win you games as it can get you to the next loop (especially if you position well). Off the record into DS into DH is very strong strat used in high MMR.
DH is 100% useless, because it fully depends on killers ping and works in 1% of all uses.
You should practice against your friends or a custom game to get better at it. Good luck buddy!
Killers got their regressions buffed so much, that most games end at 5 gens and if not, then there is 0 chance to break 3-gen that killers can guard from start of the game.
LOL! Most good regression perks were nerfed. All current regression perks are "okay" at best, and they are not even close to what old POP/Ruin did. And well 3 gen is easy to break, I can give you some tips if you want. 3 gen is super healthy thing in the game as it punished mindless genrushing.
I have stats that support it and if you have stats telling otherwise, then your stats are wrong. Mine are fine though.
I am glad you don't work for BHVR because you seem like you'd balance the game around only a one-dimensional variable (escape/kill rate).
Do you have anything to say to this? If yes then you have 0 idea what you are talking about, because you must be low MMR
Honey, I probably played against more comp survivor players in the last month than you met in your whole DBD playtime.
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@JustAnotherNewbie said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3255127#Comment_3255127
I actually meant to say gen-slowdown. Corrupt intervention and Deadlock are passive perks. The Killer need not do anything for them to activate.
As for slowdown, kicking a gen isn't hard. It takes at most 2 seconds. And wouldn't you say not being able to get a down to activate a gen perk is a skill issue on the killer's part? I would understand if in some maps that might make it more difficult though. To me you also sound overwhelmingly biased in favor of Killer every time I read a post of yours.
Sprint Burst is the easiest exhaustion perk to use as well as Overcome, you literally do nothing to activate them.
But the rest have some requirement.
Lithe requires a window or a pallet to vault (definitely not that hard).
Smash Hit requires you stun the killer, which can depend on if the killer respects pallets or not.
And Dead Hard requires good timing as well as good latency and the killer not to know you have dead hard because they can play around it.
Of all those exhaustion perks Dead Hard seems to be the hardest to get consistently as it does not depend only on your action but the killer's as well and the killer is not a bot to always hit you when he gets in range of you. If you are successful shouldn't the survivor be rewarded? Killers running Eruption, Pain Resonance and other gen perks are not only rewarded with advancing their objective but also slowing down gens and survivor objective.
Some of those perks don't even affect only one generator at the time but more (Jolt, Ruin). Which means more reward for the killer. So a weak survivor not only disadvantages their team by gaining a hook state but they also affect their team's main objective by undoing their progress.
If according to you it is a skill issue that you get exposed after stun and get downed, then can't the same be said about a Killer being looped for a gen's worth of time by the same survivor? (90 seconds). He is probably bad at chasing and knowing when to switch targets. Why should I feel positive about a killer who after getting his first down at 5/4/3 gens because the game IS designed so that the survivor gets downed at some point, he proceeds to camp? Is that somehow skillful. Doesn't he also get rewarded for doing nothing but standing close to the hooked survivor or running around waiting for someone to rescue? Not saying it's an incorrect strategy, but it requires less skill than chasing a survivor i, not to mention it is even more effective if the team is SWF as they don't want to let their friend die and if they do let their teammate die on first hook or after tunneling they just made the game harder for themselves and killer got a huge advantage with one survivor out by doing the least.
As for slowdown, kicking a gen isn't hard. It takes at most 2 seconds. And wouldn't you say not being able to get a down to activate a gen perk is a skill issue on the killer's part? I would understand if in some maps that might make it more difficult though.
Kicking gen wastes a massive amount of time (getting to gen + kicking) plus regression is not guaranteed. It requires massively more skill on the killer's side to effectively use gen regression than on the survivor's side to use exhaustion perks. It's not even comparable.
To me you also sound overwhelmingly biased in favor of Killer every time I read a post of yours.
There are plenty of issues on the survivor's side too, but there are more than enough people complaining about them. It's more useful for me to post killer issues since they're not as looked closely as they should be.
Of all those exhaustion perks Dead Hard seems to be the hardest to get consistently as it does not depend only on your action but the killer's as well and the killer is not a bot to always hit you when he gets in range of you. If you are successful shouldn't the survivor be rewarded? Killers running Eruption, Pain Resonance and other gen perks are not only rewarded with advancing their objective but also slowing down gens and survivor objective.
Why are you comparing perks which reward you for playing well to perks which don't and literally give you 2nd chance/free ability? A killer has to down survivor, win chases fast, and then gets rewarded for playing well. What is a requirement for dead hard? Get injured lol, here's your free ability. What's the requirement for sprint burst? Literally none. What's a requirement for Lithe? Find a window What's a requirement for BL? Find a high point.
Additionally, gen regression/slowdown is a must nowadays to have a good chance of winning on average. Running no regression builds is like shooting yourself in the foot and trying to run a marathon.
If according to you it is a skill issue that you get exposed after stun and get downed, then can't the same be said about a Killer being looped for a gen's worth of time by the same survivor? (90 seconds).
There are plenty of tiles/loops which have no counterplay and are way too safe. If a killer got outplayed at TL, or an unsafe, or semi-safe loop, then by all means he was bad at chases. But there are still disgustingly too many safe pallets, no player in DBD has a chance to win those tiles unless they play the specific killer and there is no skill at all in using those pallets on the survivor side. It's handholding bad survivors by devs.
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@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3255163#Comment_3255163
The map had official stats with highest kill rate out of every single map in whole game. Yes dude. Stats from devs. That's how delusional you are. I don't need to come to all the other points. Because you called most killer sided map in whole game "not even killer sided". Dude. Stop
Stats from devs also suggest Nurse is weak, and needs a buff. And Sadako is top-tier killer. Dude. Stop.
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@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3255155#Comment_3255155
Midwitch isn't killer sided. Ok mate. I am ending this discussion with you. Aparently you have never played DBD
Just cause a map doesn't have infinite pallets for you to work with doesn't mean that it's automatically killer sided. I'd suggest exploring other playstyles as pallets are not the only way to win the game.
Midwich isn't killer sided because of how strong hold W is in that map. A lot of gens are conveniently placed in positions where you can see the killer approaching and can hold W for 10-20 seconds before even getting into a chase. Additionally, there are no good entrance points to the 2nd floor for a killer as you always have to run into a corner to go upstairs. Additionally, some loops are still good (double god windows, some relatively safe loops there and here, obligation to break breakable walls to have chance at loop etc.)
It's even overrated for Nurses as the line of sight blocking in that map is extremely good. Ormond is literally a better Nurse map than Midwich against good survivors.
What's your counterargument?
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@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3255130#Comment_3255130
1, reduced sprint after hit
2, lower hit cooldown after hit
3, removed pallets in existing maps (I noticed every 2 weeks a pallet goes missing from some map)
4, map reworks are always more killer favoring then the original. Yet god forbid to touch midwitch or shelter woods
5, have you seen new tiles? Especially that new trash gym? They are now part of RNG for existing maps. But all new tiles are just awful.
Do I have to continue?
1, reduced sprint after hit
Hold W is nerfed and is irrelevant to looping. Additionally, most of the time you can still make it to the next tile.
2, lower hit cooldown after hit
See response #1
3, removed pallets in existing maps (I noticed every 2 weeks a pallet goes missing from some map)
Yeah, because most maps are still overwhelmingly survivor sided.
4, map reworks are always more killer favoring then the original. Yet god forbid to touch midwitch or shelter woods
Massively wrong. They reworked all farm maps and they're still as strong if not as stronger as before. Badham maps got reworked - the same story. The game was reworked into a much stronger survivor map. Lery's was reworked into a stronger survivor map. Midwich isn't even a killer-sided map, good survivors can utilize hold W and destroy most killers + there are really strong tiles in 2 places + 2 god pallets. Shelter Woods is a weak survivor map but it doesn't even come close to killer compared to all other survivor-sided maps. They added eyries and garden of joy arguably the two strongest survivors maps in the game.
5, have you seen new tiles? Especially that new trash gym? They are now part of RNG for existing maps. But all new tiles are just awful.
New tiles are not strong at all, but they still can be looped for a bit of time. You don't loop using those tiles, you loop once, mind game and then run to the next loop if you did well. With that being said, it's good that they're adding more skilful tiles instead of things like jungle gyms. They are still way too many safe loops in most of the maps.
Do I have to continue?
Apparently, yes, you do. Safe loops are getting nerfed (which they should) - it's very sad that survivors can't just drop most of the pallets anymore and get 3 gen chase. But they'll have to adapt and use their brains a bit more when choosing tiles and mind-gaming killers.
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@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3255111#Comment_3255111
Because you are biased
They literally nerfed most good anti-loop killers (slinger, freddy, spirit, PH)
Give evidence that looping and chases keep getting nerfed. Thanks, looking forward to it.
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@JustAnotherNewbie said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3255111#Comment_3255111
Do you even read anything that you don't agree with from the first sentence?
Need to know for future posting whenever I see you.
Yeah, I read it, but your words are so overwhelmingly biased it's not worth my attention.
You're complaining about a new killer. That is very humorous considering his anti-loop is weak at best and can be easily countered.
You're also complaining about one of his perks which puts you in an exposed state after you stun the killer. This seems like a skill issue if you can't counter it.
Exhaustion perks are the equivalent of gen-regression perks for killer.
I'm saving this one as a quote. Comparing gen regression which almost always requires the killer to either kick a gen AND/OR get a down to a free given speed boost for literally doing nothing. Yeah, good comparison.
"Looping gets nerfed"
When did they last time nerfed looping in any way? Most survivors can't even loop properly.
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@bunnyfengenthusiast said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3254757#Comment_3254757
So why does everyone pick it still? I really don't get this argument. We've had 3 months since 6.10, and it's still used overwhelmingly everywhere. Do you think survivors pick DH, don't get value out of it and then just keep using it lol? Especially, when there is a perk like Sprint Burst which literally any noob player can use to a decent effect. Massive mental gymnastics in my honest opinion.
I wasn't making any argument there, I was pointing out how you were conflating correlation with value, which isn't an argument. People run perks all the time that they get no value at all from. People run Deliverance and get hooked first, people run DS and OTR and don't get tunneled off hook, people run Soul Guard and never get picked up from the ground. It's an objective fact that DH, which gives conditional value, gives objectively less value than SB/Lithe, or even Balanced, which gives guaranteed value. The only exhaustion perk I would place below DH is Smash Hit, and that's because it's also conditional value, contingent on the killer eating a pallet. I can't speak for why people run DH, I can only speak for why I (occasionally) run it. I'll run it when I can use a setup that gives me a near guaranteed successful use of DH (For the People into DH with WGLF so the person picked up can also eat a hit, for example). In any game where I personally run DH, I get less value from it than in any game where I run any other exhaustion perk. But I'm also at an MMR on survivor where 95% of killers will wait two and a half hours for the DH, and an MMR on killer where survivors know to fake the DH, so it's not nearly as guaranteed as you make it seem to be. I'll say again, claiming that a perk's pick rate is directly proportional to its value is a non-argument.
Simply untrue when it's used as a pallet. There is no counterplay bar for a few killers. The mess-up is on SURVIVOR'S SIDE, not the killers'. If the killer gets baited by it inin the open by a dead hard or on a predictable hit (ex: Nurse, Huntress) then the mistake is on the KILLER'S SIDE.
And that's specifically why I mentioned that as the exception for when DH has no counterplay. Even then, I'd say there is some counterplay, in the form of not respecting the pallet and not swinging at the DH. A lot of players will greed a pallet if they expect a killer to swing through it at a DH. It works 9/10 times for me. The other 1/10 times is someone playing extra safe that will DH AND drop the pallet. Even then, if we consider DH with its only objective value being giving you a speed boost if you manage to get hit through a pallet, that's still objectively less value than SB/Lithe.
Yes, I hate going against this perk on how it conditions the killer to constantly have to wait 2-4 seconds to check if a perk is used (with the addition of an uncounterable mechanic it has). It would be fine if the perk wasn't so dominant in the meta, but more and more lobbies are popping up with 3-4 dead hards. In so many ways new DH is the same as the old DH that honestly it makes me nauseous. Nothing has changed, even after 5 years.
Consider the following: stop making your "waiting" for DH so blatant. Sometimes, I'll know for a fact a survivor has it, and I'll still swing after waiting a half second, because they never expect it. DbD is a game that is entirely based around mindgames, you can mindgame just about anything, to include the timing on a DH.
It's an objective fact that DH, which gives conditional value, gives objectively less value than SB/Lithe, or even Balanced, which gives guaranteed value. The only exhaustion perk I would place below DH is Smash Hit, and that's because it's also conditional value, contingent on the killer eating a pallet. I can't speak for why people run DH, I can only speak for why I (occasionally) run it.
So you're saying the most picked perk in the game (not only amongst exhaustion perks but also amongst ALL PERKS) is highly situational and niche. What's the logic there? So DH:
1 Is hard to use compared to other exhaustion perks (community words)
2 Requires a lot of skill (community words)
3 Is situational and doesn't bring value as often as one would think (your words)
And yet this perk dominates across exhaustion perks, and across ALL other perks. We've had 3 months to figure out the meta, and you think the community still overwhelmingly picks high-skill floor, highly situational and moderate reward perk? Something doesn't align here buddy. What you're saying is the community is dumb, doesn't recognize that DH doesn't give relatively constant value and should choose other exhaustion perks to cause they are more useful on average.
And that's specifically why I mentioned that as the exception for when DH has no counterplay. Even then, I'd say there is some counterplay, in the form of not respecting the pallet and not swinging at the DH.
You eat pallet stun then.
It works 9/10 times for me. The other 1/10 times is someone playing extra safe that will DH AND drop the pallet. Even then, if we consider DH with its only objective value being giving you a speed boost if you manage to get hit through a pallet, that's still objectively less value than SB/Lithe.
Idk what MMR you're playing but in my games, players know they can use DH to either gain sprint burst or stun the killer. Seems like survivors on your level just can't use DH properly.
Consider the following: stop making your "waiting" for DH so blatant. Sometimes, I'll know for a fact a survivor has it, and I'll still swing after waiting a half second, because they never expect it. DbD is a game that is entirely based around mindgames, you can mindgame just about anything, to include the timing on a DH.
Yeah I swing too sometimes because I know they have DH and they're not looking behind for example. I know that scenario well and used it to my advantage. With that being said, such cases happen rarely. Most of the common use case is where you MUST swing or you eat a pallet.
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@JustAnotherNewbie said:
Exhaustion perks are the equivalent of gen-regression perks for killer. The extend the chase therefore wasting time for killer just like gen-regression slows down gens for survivors. Both are about denying their opponents their objective.
Looping and chases keep getting nerfed. The Killer coming out is anti-loop and one of his perks punishes the survivor for stunning Killer with a pallet and rewards the killer getting stunned with Exposed.
If looping gets even more nerfed then gen-rushing will become even more prevalent (and the new survivor has 3 perks that revolve around gens, 2 of which affect gen repair speed). I dunno how fun you find this, but from what I've been reading Killers don't seem especially fond of gen-rushing. If you hate chasing as well what is left for you to do as Killer. Should the game become hide and seek again?
"Looping and chases keep getting nerfed" - I stopped reading there...
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@Peppa_Pigsaw said:
It won't be nerfed because the community believes it takes "skill". You have to wait a couple of years until more and more people start abusing it again before BHVR looks at it again due to public outcry. Sorry man.
I hate that you're saying the truth :^) It's super skilful to press E when near a pallet to guarantee a 3rd health state. The timing is impeccable, only 0.1 % of top players manage to get use of it!
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@dugman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3254797#Comment_3254797
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "remove the pallet invulnerability mechanic". If you mean you think the survivor should "lose ties" at pallets I'm not sure that's possible since that's a latency issue where the killer sees they got a hit on their screen and the survivor sees they got a pallet stun on their screen. What are the details of the change you want to see happen regarding pallets and Dead Hard?
When survivors are near a pallet (any pallet), they can time their dead hard in a way that guarantees them either a pallet drop or a dead hard proc because:
1 Either killer swings during dead hard animation and procs dead hard
2 Killer waits it out but then the survivor drops a pallet and stuns killer
If a survivor does it properly, there is NO counterplay, with exception of a few killers. The killer cannot "just wait it out" because if they wait it out, survivor can drop a pallet. So they're forced into a lose-lose situation. This is the biggest problem with Dead Hard and how it feels so unfair.
And while it requires more skill than old dead hard to perform this move, it doesn't require nearly enough to justify a "lose-lose" scenario for a killer. There is no counterplay from the killer side, they have to rely on survivors messing up. The timing window is way too generous for survivors that they don't really need much skill to do this.
They can implement a nerf to this by preventing survivors from dropping a pallet after dead-hard animation for X seconds. There are other ways to fix this too, and honestly, I don't care as long as this mechanic is gone.
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New Dead Hard, by contrast, does let someone avoid dropping the pallet (not avoid going down, as we're discussing its use at a pallet), at the cost of Deep Wound, no stun for the killer, and potentially having absolutely nowhere for their speed boost to take them. It's a gamble now, because there are a lot of scenarios where the killer just shrugs and keeps chasing you, especially if they have a power that can handle Dead Hard- which a lot of killers, even a lot of the weaker ones, do.
What is your argument here? So new DH is weaker now because killers keep chasing you but with the old DH killers would stop chasing you? Even though the new DH gives more distance, so the actual chase always going to be longer? Are you using some psychological reasoning here, lol?
Why would the killers stop chases when old dead hard was used compared to new dead hard? It literally doesn't make any sense. If they could not get to a pallet with the new DH, they would absolutely not get to a pallet with the old DH, so why would killers now prefer to chase but not before? Breaking a pallet and then chasing would not be longer than the distance gained with the new DH so there is absolutely no sense why would killers always drop chases with old DH compared to new DH.
As for the Exhaustion perks... you can't be telling me that you think Smash Hit is as powerful as Sprint Burst or Lithe, surely? I'd agree that they're all usable, but they're nowhere near the same levels of strength. People are going to pick the stronger ones more than they pick the weaker ones, that's what I mean. The weaker ones need to be stronger before we can go down the route of nerfing the most picked ones solely for being the most picked-- since again, "most picked" is irrelevant if it's only the most picked by a small percentage and overall there's reasonable variety.
Sprint burst, lithe and balanced landing are all balanced exhaustion perks and should be used as benchmarks for where DH should be. I'm fine with buffing smash hit to the strength of those 3 perks, just as I'm fine with nerfing DH to the strength of these 3 perks.
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@dugman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3254780#Comment_3254780
To clarify, I’m not saying Dead Hard isn’t still a problem, it probably is. I’m saying that it’s not as much of a problem as it was. It’s pick rate is still high but also down and a bunch of the scenarios where it used to work it doesn’t now. (And as far as I know it still has the annoying thing of cheaters being able to auto-trigger it which probably also boosts its usage a bit.)
Personally I wouldn’t be against shortening the duration of the sprint burst it gives when it absorbs a hit. Removing that altogether might be overkill but making it give a little less distance could be ok.
To clarify, I’m not saying Dead Hard isn’t still a problem, it probably is. I’m saying that it’s not as much of a problem as it was.
For a perk that has been unchanged for 5 years, and was picked 70-80 % - the standards for nerfing it is REALLY REALLY low. Ruin literally gets butchered completely into a dead perk and no one bats an eye. DH should be at a MINIMUM similar pick rate as all other exhaustion perks. Reworking this perk completely into a different thing is also fine considering latency issues, and the general unfun nature of this old and new perk when used at pallets/windows.
Personally I wouldn’t be against shortening the duration of the sprint burst it gives when it absorbs a hit. Removing that altogether might be overkill but making it give a little less distance could be ok.
There is a lot of skill in baiting an M1 attack where both sides have the ability to react - and the sprint burst that you gain after successful bait should stay the same. It simply needs the pallet invulnerability mechanic to be removed - where a reaction is on the survivor's side and not on the killer's. If they remove this mechanic, DH is a good perk (although still annoying in some cases, but I'll take that over "eat pallet or eat dead hard")
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@jesterkind said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3254767#Comment_3254767
Man, you're really acting like swinging into a Dead Hard at a pallet is like, the end of the game and you've already lost. There are so many scenarios that's happened to me and I still get the down like ten seconds later because there's nothing for the survivor to run to, or where I just drop the chase and go down someone else. Seriously, it's not the same every time and it's not an automatic chase ender, it gives some value to survivors but it's far from overpowered.
As for the killers mentioned, no, they don't. Bubba chainsaws through Endurance all the time, it's why he doesn't care about Borrowed Time when basement camping, and Nurse and Blight recharge fast enough that they do not care about having to hit three times instead of two. The benefit of those chase extensions is miniscule, especially against Nurse. Add onto that killers that get to completely ignore Dead Hard like Legion, Deathslinger, and to a lesser extent killers like Trapper or anyone with an instadown, and its usefulness continues to drop compared to its old state.
As for your last points, insisting it be in the top five instead of where it is just seems arbitrary to me. Since it's the difference between it and the next few in line that matters, I don't see how that'd fix anything. As for it being picked as often as the other Exhaustion perks, in theory I agree, but not all the Exhaustion perks are actually equal. There's no universe where, even with DH completely removed from the game, people gravitate to Smash Hit or Head On to replace it, the Exhaustion perks need to be closer to one another before they can be used as a metric for comparing Dead Hard to.
Man, you're really acting like swinging into a Dead Hard at a pallet is like, the end of the game and you've already lost. There are so many scenarios that's happened to me and I still get the down like ten seconds later because there's nothing for the survivor to run to, or where I just drop the chase and go down someone else. Seriously, it's not the same every time and it's not an automatic chase ender, it gives some value to survivors but it's far from overpowered.
Glad you can catch survivors after they use Dead Hard in 10 seconds now. Judging by this, that means that with old Dead hard you probably caught them in like 2-4 seconds tops. Old DH wasn't a problem at all, literally a 2-4 seconds chase extender, LOL!
As for your last points, insisting it be in the top five instead of where it is just seems arbitrary to me. Since it's the difference between it and the next few in line that matters, I don't see how that'd fix anything. As for it being picked as often as the other Exhaustion perks, in theory I agree, but not all the Exhaustion perks are actually equal. There's no universe where, even with DH completely removed from the game, people gravitate to Smash Hit or Head On to replace it, the Exhaustion perks need to be closer to one another before they can be used as a metric for comparing Dead Hard to.
If one exhaustion perk is still very much picked over exhaustion perks (for how many years now?), then yeah - it should be nerfed even more, especially when they rely on the same exhaustion mechanic. I don't think other exhaustion perks are bad, all of them are good and perfectly balanced - so why does DH still get very much preferred over all other exhaustion perks? I guess the community just has a fetish for Dead Hard - that's why it never cant gravitate towards the same pick rate.
Or MAYBE, going back to my decisive strike example... Decisive Strike is still a decent perk after the nerf but its pick rate probably plunged probably by 80 % and no one considers it meta anymore. It can still win you games and is a good perk, but it requires more thinking and pre-planning. They literally made Decisive Strike actually require some brain usage and not just "HOLD W for the next 10-20 seconds". This is a perk that actually requires significantly more skill compared to its older self, and we can see how quickly it has fallen out of the meta (even though it's still picked by skilful players from my experience). DH should've been the same, but arguably "it requires more skill to use now", so much more skill that it's still the most picked survivor perk.
If the argument against DS is that "it does nothing", then I can also see easily DH also "doing nothing" when they go down after the killer waits for it. Or MAYBE, just MAYBE, it does much more... The parallels with DS are undeniable, yet it's clear that something is still really wrong with DH as DS is out of the meta, and DH still is. Or should I say, DS is still meta at the top level, but DH is meta mostly everywhere.
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@dugman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3254770#Comment_3254770
Except it's not "better in every scenario", that's objective wrong. You can't Dead Hard Deathslinger's spear. If you're under Deep Wounds it doesn't work. You can't Dead Hard over Traps. You can't Dead Hard through a body block.
It's better in SOME scenarios, not EVERY scenario.
We're talking about averages here. Sure you can't dead hard over a trapper's traps anymore and neither you can against deathslinger (idk why you use those arguments considering no one plays them and you can beat them easily without DH, but w/e)
But if you bait an attack over a lot of other killers, ex: huntress hatchet, nurse blink, wesker dash, yada yada the list goes very long here - you literally gain more value than using old DH. So in baiting an M1 attack - yes it's overwhelmingly better than old DH on average.
This leaves us to the pallet scenario - I've already told this in my other replies, but you get X amount of invulnerability when using the new DH (similar to the old DH). If survivors master that timing, they get more value compared to the old DH because they get a sprint burst and a saved pallet.
Does it take more skill to master that timing? Yes
Does it take sufficiently more skill so we can say that perk is balanced? Absolutely no
For DH to be properly balanced, the uncounterable pallet invulnerability scenario where the killer has to rely on the survivor messing up needs to BE GONE.
Every other part of DH is fine, if I got baited by DH when I could've just waited a bit - perfectly fine IMO, well played to the survivor. But the pallet invulnerability lose-lose scenario needs to disappear asap.
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@dugman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3254742#Comment_3254742
I'm not the one being disingenuous, you're the one ignoring the various downsides of the new version of the perk and focusing solely on the one aspect that is sometimes better.
I didn't ignore them, I mentioned multiple times that the new DH is very much weaker than the old DH when using the "use DH to get to window scenario". In all other scenarios, it is stronger, the downsides are offset by upsides easily assuming survivors can actually abuse this perk (which a lot of them can do now)
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@jesterkind said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3254737#Comment_3254737
...Why can't you swing during the invulnerability period? Of course you can swing, you just have to understand and react to what happens next. From the killer's perspective, dropping chase is always a viable decision if you don't think you can secure a down, so dropping chase and getting a short Mend period out of the survivor is actually better for you than the survivor simply getting to run away.
(Also, brief side note, Bubba does not give a solitary damn about Dead Hard nor any other form of Endurance, nor does Blight or Nurse, but I will grant you some killers will be forced to hit it more often. Most of them have powers that let them get a follow up hit pretty easily, but still.)
As for your final point, you're being misleading. Yes, it's the most used survivor perk, but it went from a 70% pickrate in high MMR lobbies to a 20% one. That is a giant drop and an absolute success. The killer perks look similar, if I recall correctly- because it doesn't matter what the most popular perk is if it's only the most picked by a small margin. It matters when perks absolutely dominate with huge differences in the pickrate between them and their closest competitors, which was the case with Dead Hard.
...Why can't you swing during the invulnerability period? Of course you can swing, you just have to understand and react to what happens next. From the killer's perspective, dropping chase is always a viable decision if you don't think you can secure a down, so dropping chase and getting a short Mend period out of the survivor is actually better for you than the survivor simply getting to run away.
Are you really saying that getting a deep wound + dropping a chase + not getting a pallet drop is somehow a good scenario for a killer? You really should stop with "deep wound value" stuff, Legion has that base kit and he's still one of the worst killers in the game. It doesn't do much to prolong the game, downs are everything.
(Also, brief side note, Bubba does not give a solitary damn about Dead Hard nor any other form of Endurance, nor does Blight or Nurse, but I will grant you some killers will be forced to hit it more often. Most of them have powers that let them get a follow up hit pretty easily, but still.)
Yes, they do. Any extra chase time against strong killers is valuable. It's true that they don't suffer as much as M1 killers from Dead Hard, but it still gives a second chance to get to a pallet or get to a different place. In a way, it's like the new DS, which can win you games at times, and can give you nothing. I think DS is a perfectly balanced perk now - it's what DH should've been
As for your final point, you're being misleading. Yes, it's the most used survivor perk, but it went from a 70% pickrate in high MMR lobbies to a 20% one. That is a giant drop and an absolute success. The killer perks look similar, if I recall correctly- because it doesn't matter what the most popular perk is if it's only the most picked by a small margin. It matters when perks absolutely dominate with huge differences in the pickrate between them and their closest competitors, which was the case with Dead Hard.
"A top survivor perk is still the top survivor perk even after rework". When DH has a similar pick rate as other exhaustion perks (+- 3-5 %), then we can talk that it's in line with other exhaustion perks. A perk which has been meta for 5+ years should not be compared to its absolute pick rate, but relative to other perks, and it's still predominantly meta (likely the most used perk).
DH rework would've been a success if:
1 At most it's the top 5 used perks, not the top 2, or even top 1
2 Its pick rate is very close to other exhaustion perks
Neither was achieved.
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@bunnyfengenthusiast said:
Dead Hard is currently fine. A good killer shouldn't fall for it more than once (or at all, if they wait it out the first time or always expect it). Old Dead Hard gave GUARANTEED value, unconditionally of the killer swinging at it or not. Not only did it let you iframe through things, it also gave you a guaranteed amount of distance that the killer simply could not play around. Current Dead Hard requires prediction on the part of the survivor (it's very very hard to use on reaction, even to a lunge, considering things like reaction time and ping exist). A perk's pick rate isn't directly correlated to the amount of value that the survivor gets from it, so saying it's still used a lot isn't really a proper argument.
The only real problematic way to use Dead Hard is using it into a pallet and having a guaranteed drop, which can't really be countered by a killer, and survivors won't do too often unless they expect you to wait for it. Even at higher levels, good players are relatively predictable when it comes to when they will use it. Injured and running into a window from an unsafe distance? They'll DH. Injured and running through a pallet from just the right distance that they think the killer will swing? They'll DH. Injured and about to take a health state from a predictable killer power (Huntress, Trickster, Pyramid Head etc.), they'll DH. It's just extra steps to secure a down without having to extend a chase, but the value is nowhere near guaranteed. A killer has to mess up in order for a survivor to get value out of DH, that's how that works.
I feel your pain though. It's mentally exhausting to go up against a 4x DH 4x Adrenaline sweaty swf, but the perk is completely fine in its current state.
A perk's pick rate isn't directly correlated to the amount of value that the survivor gets from it, so saying it's still used a lot isn't really a proper argument.
So why does everyone pick it still? I really don't get this argument. We've had 3 months since 6.10, and it's still used overwhelmingly everywhere. Do you think survivors pick DH, don't get value out of it and then just keep using it lol? Especially, when there is a perk like Sprint Burst which literally any noob player can use to a decent effect. Massive mental gymnastics in my honest opinion.
A killer has to mess up in order for a survivor to get value out of DH, that's how that works.
Simply untrue when it's used as a pallet. There is no counterplay bar for a few killers. The mess-up is on SURVIVOR'S SIDE, not the killers'. If the killer gets baited by it inin the open by a dead hard or on a predictable hit (ex: Nurse, Huntress) then the mistake is on the KILLER'S SIDE.
I feel your pain though. It's mentally exhausting to go up against a 4x DH 4x Adrenaline sweaty swf, but the perk is completely fine in its current state.
Yes, I hate going against this perk on how it conditions the killer to constantly have to wait 2-4 seconds to check if a perk is used (with the addition of an uncounterable mechanic it has). It would be fine if the perk wasn't so dominant in the meta, but more and more lobbies are popping up with 3-4 dead hards. In so many ways new DH is the same as the old DH that honestly it makes me nauseous. Nothing has changed, even after 5 years.
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@dugman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3254681#Comment_3254681
Dead Hard used to have a 40%+ pick rate. Now its pick rate is 25-30%, it's gone down by 1/3. Yes it's still the most popular perk but the gap between it and other perks narrowed.
And while the new Dead Hard is obviously quite good, it is weaker in some respects. Not just because it's harder to use to lunge for distance to reach a vault or pallet, but also because the new version of Dead Hard doesn't work against killer effects which aren't attacks (e.g. Trapper's Traps, Deathslinger's spear, Doctor's shocks, getting through body blocks, etc) and also doesn't work if you're already in Deep Wounds (the old one had no such restriction, so for instance if Legion put you in Deep Wounds and dropped out of Feral Frenzy to keep chasing you then your old Dead Hard could still work but the new one can't.)
So yes, Dead Hard is still very popular. But it's also simultaneously used less than before and on the whole is probably slightly weaker than before.
Why do you ignore the new strengths new dead hard gives while focusing only on negatives compared to old DH? It's so disingenuous.
It's as if everyone forgot that it gives a sprint burst and a saved pallet lmao. And that works even better compared to old dead hard when baiting M1s, not just pallet scenarios.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3254700#Comment_3254700
Except it is counterable. That's the entire reason you're wrong about it being a failure, in all scenarios except for over-committing at a pallet, you can counter Dead Hard by baiting it out. And in the scenarios where they're at a pallet... they aren't always at a pallet, they don't teleport there when you start a chase. You can get a hit in those scenarios, it's not an automatic thing where they're going to get value from Dead Hard in every single chase.
Even your own arguments are backing this up, frankly. Even if we were to assume that DH at a pallet should be considered genuinely uncounterable, that's still massively less powerful than old Dead Hard which allowed you to get to a pallet that you otherwise would've been hit before you reached. For new Dead Hard, the survivor always has the option not to get hit because they can only use it the way you're describing in the same situations they could drop a pallet for a stun. You're basically arguing that a slightly better Smash Hit that also gives you Deep Wound is uncounterable, lol.
That's not even getting into all of the small killer-specific things DH used to do, even.
There's no way around it. This version of the perk is weaker, and picked massively less often.
Except it is counterable. That's the entire reason you're wrong about it being a failure, in all scenarios except for over-committing at a pallet, you can counter Dead Hard by baiting it out. And in the scenarios where they're at a pallet... they aren't always at a pallet, they don't teleport there when you start a chase. You can get a hit in those scenarios, it's not an automatic thing where they're going to get value from Dead Hard in every single chase.
You underestimate how much "DH at pallet" scenario happens. It happens way more than you think and is not a niche use case anymore. The only relevant scenarios where we need to discuss DH are:
1 At a pallet (DH is stronger than before by all means)
2 When near windows (DH is weaker than before)
3 When countering by timing a near guaranteed upcoming hit from the killer - ex Nurse, Blight, Bubba, etc. (DH is stronger than before)
4 When predicting non-telegraphed attacks (DH is stronger than before)
Even your own arguments are backing this up, frankly. Even if we were to assume that DH at a pallet should be considered genuinely uncounterable, that's still massively less powerful than old Dead Hard which allowed you to get to a pallet that you otherwise would've been hit before you reached. For new Dead Hard, the survivor always has the option not to get hit because they can only use it the way you're describing in the same situations they could drop a pallet for a stun. You're basically arguing that a slightly better Smash Hit that also gives you Deep Wound is uncounterable, lol.
Do the maths and figure it out yourself. The invulnerability period is more or less the same with both old DH and new DH. Killers cannot swing because of that invulnerability period which either leads to a pallet drop/stun or a triggered DH. There is no "waiting it out" during this as you are forced into a lose-lose situation. You can use that invulnerability period just as well as you used the "gain distance" period, maybe there is 10-20 % off, but that difference is negligible from my experience.
There's no way around it. This version of the perk is weaker, and picked massively less often.
I like how we have overwhelmingly strong meta perk for 5 years, and it's still likely the most used survivor perk after so-called "REWORK" and this is apparently fine. Meanwhile, sh*t like Ruin gets nerfed to ground with the definition of a dead perk after it's been meta in the same way as DH.
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3254681#Comment_3254681
What is your source for the stats? The last ones I saw DH had a high pick rate but still at roughly the 25% pick mark instead of the 70 to 75% it was prior to 6.1. It is a strong perk still but it takes skill to use. The Endurance part can make somebody feel like they were denied a hit but, with Sprint Burst, BL, and/or Lithe, the Killer wouldn't have gotten the hit to begin with.
At the pick rates I saw and my experience with it I interpreted it as a perk that's strong but not OP. Have the pick rates changed substantially? If not, we may just have a difference of opinion on what constitutes substantial usage.
Google "6.10 in review dbd". It was 2nd most used perk after it was declared "dead". Fair to assume the numbers have climbed even higher since then - I wouldn't be surprised if it's the #1 used perk now.
I also tracked my games, and it's the most used perk on the survivor side.
"Skill to use" doesn't correlate with the pick rate. If the pick rate is high, then it likely doesn't require ENOUGH skill usage. Especially when it's top pick rate perk. I guess the majority of the community is just super skilful, or maybe the perk doesn't require that much skill to use hmm.
And I can't believe I have to say this:
A perk goes meta for 5 years, it's still one of the most (if not the most) picked perks in the game after rework. And this is acceptable? This perk needs to be butchered considering how overwhelmingly strong it was for so long.
If all other exhaustion perks are easier to use objectively, then why is the community picking hard-to-use perk which requires a lot of skill when alternatives are just as good, and even easier to use? That's because they constantly get value out of it, even the noobs.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3254680#Comment_3254680
Let's take a look at those examples!
For the first one, you're missing something pretty obvious: you get a speed boost if you time it right, and after you get that speed boost, you have to mend. No matter what way you slice it, that is weaker than instant free value with no downside other than Exhaustion.
For the second, I would say that at a pallet is definitely a strong place to use Dead Hard, but you're missing that the value it gives is saving a pallet- you can only use it that way if you can also get a pallet stun, so it's less dodging a hit and more saving the pallet for later, at the cost of Deep Wound.
For the third, this is blatantly wrong. How the hell could you bait out someone using Dead Hard to make distance to a pallet/window they wouldn't otherwise reach? That was the entire problem with Dead Hard and by far the most common use for it, and that is now completely impossible. You cannot use it to reach tiles that were otherwise out of reach, which was absurdly strong, and thus the perk is now considerably weaker.
For the first one, you're missing something pretty obvious: you get a speed boost if you time it right, and after you get that speed boost, you have to mend. No matter what way you slice it, that is weaker than instant free value with no downside other than Exhaustion.
You can shift W after you dead hard with sprint burst which inherently wastes 10+ sec more at least. Additionally, if you pull new dead hard everywhere else but pallet, you get massively more value compared to dead hard. Old DH baiting M1 would literally buy you max 2 seconds more, new DH gets you at least 10+ sec + ability to get to a pallet.
Mending is irrelevant, especially when mended by another person. Going down/staying in the same loop/dead zone is significantly worse than having to mend. Literally, no one makes the same argument about base kit BT mend time, everyone knows it's worth it lol.
For the second, I would say that at a pallet is definitely a strong place to use Dead Hard, but you're missing that the value it gives is saving a pallet- you can only use it that way if you can also get a pallet stun, so it's less dodging a hit and more saving the pallet for later, at the cost of Deep Wound.
Yes, it gives a saved pallet + sprint burst. It's massively stronger than the old DH and doesn't require much skill to use it like this. I also don't know what's your argument here. Are you agreeing with me and adding more to my points that it's overwhelmingly strong there? Thanks, I guess.
For the third, this is blatantly wrong. How the hell could you bait out someone using Dead Hard to make distance to a pallet/window they wouldn't otherwise reach? That was the entire problem with Dead Hard and by far the most common use for it, and that is now completely impossible. You cannot use it to reach tiles that were otherwise out of reach, which was absurdly strong, and thus the perk is now considerably weaker.
Yes, the distance uncounterable factor is gone. But the new uncounterable mechanic has been replaced by using DH at a pallet. We shuffled parts there and here, and in the end, the perk is not much different. Same, but different, i.e. rework failure. Effectively it's a third health state with an uncounterable mechanic which is what old DH always was.
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@TheSubstitute said:
Whenever 6.1 came out. That's the date it was properly nerfed and brought into line with other exhaustion perks.
The pick rate massively suggests otherwise, friend. It's much more used than other exhaustion perks.
So what's the next angle? Why is the community using this perk overwhelmingly even though all other exhaustion perks are just as good now?
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@jesterkind said:
Dead Hard is so much weaker than it was before and its pickrate has gone down significantly. Your rundown of the before and after there misses the most important part of old DH- the distance. The distance is what made old DH so uncounterable on top of also being really good at dodging a hit. Now, not only can you not use it for distance at all, but using it to dodge a hit also has a downside in the form of Deep Wounds.
It's also significantly weaker against M1 killers than it used to be even for dodging a hit, because "bait it out" actually works now. It's killers that have windows to hit - like Nurse, for example - that DH is now most useful against, which isn't a bad spot to be in for a perk.
So, I don't see how the objective to rework Dead Hard has failed, personally. It's weaker than it was before, it has counterplay and is no longer free value, and its pickrate went down significantly. Those are all successes. Obviously it's still a good perk, probably in the top three Exhaustion perks still, but changing that wasn't ever the goal and shouldn't be expected.
How can you say it's weaker when properly used it's even stronger than before.
Before:
You gain distance
Now:
You gain a sprint burst
So if dead hard gets triggered then it's ALWAYS stronger than old dead hard in value. So the question is - does it get triggered enough?
Let's see:
Before - Baiting out at pallet:
Does not work if the survivor is good (uncounterable)
After - Baiting out at pallet:
Does not work if the survivor is good (uncounterable)
Before - Baiting everywhere else:
It's easy (irrelevant point)
After - Baiting out everywhere else:
It's easy (irrelevant point)
The only argument you could make that DH is weaker is cause you can't use it on windows properly, but that gets offset by benefits in other areas.
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@mischiefmanaged said:
However, no one calls out survivors for
Killers literally complain about everything you mentioned pretty much daily. "No one calls out survivors" this thread is literally done every day.
There's things that are toxic on both sides and things that are called toxic and aren't on both sides, but saying that "nobody ever says this about survivors" is just wrong.
I play both survivor and killer very efficiently. As a killer, I constantly get negative comments/remarks about the way I play. As a survivor, I get mostly +reps from other survivors and almost no negative comments from killers. You simply go through so much more unjustified sh*t when you play as a killer compared to the survivor. And I started playing DBD in 2019, so it's not a recent development.
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@YOURFRIEND said:
It's easier for survivors to be toxic because the killer is "the villain" in this game. Why would you be polite to a villain, right?
Ignoring the fact that the killer is controlled by an actual person and is not an actual evil being, merely your opposition in a video game. But this is the mindset.
Yes, I think also that it's most of the reason (with the addition of 4v1). It's a really fascinating psychological study of such behaviour - I never experienced it to this degree in other games.
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@Grigerbest said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3244024#Comment_3244024
I disagree. It's nothing toxic about shaming the person for doing bad stuff imo.
If the guy cheating in my match to take advantage over me or being really toxic (I mean real toxicity), I will shame it, report it, and I'd say others to report it as well.
But yes, I'm not going to "reveal their names" to the audience or something, only me and the guys in the lobby.
Fair, but that's not the point of this thread. The point is that there are many cases where survivors flame the killers but do the same (or worse) actions on their own side.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3244024#Comment_3244024
If you shame an opposing person over it, that ties back to what I said earlier. "Toxicity is not defined by one's actions within a game, but one's actions outside of a game."
Let's be real, most people who call out killers for playing a certain way also use adjectives such as "noob killer", "baby killer", "trash". No one says "you tunnelled and camped" and that's it, it always ends up with some sort of derogatory remark with respect to another person's skill, or worse, outside-of-game remarks.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3244009#Comment_3244009
I do not see having a double standard as toxic, but what I see it as is a call to change, people who have double standards are more self-indulgent and lack the ability to empathize with those at the tail end of but expect empathy in return.
But the truth is that everyone does it in very mynute ways, and most people change accordingly, some people dont, which is why you just nudge them in the right direction, but I do not think this is the way of doing it. There are better and more effective ways of handling it.
It IS toxic if you also shame the opposing player for it. It is no different than saying the other person sucks at the game and flaming them for it. Except that you try to use "logical" arguments for it, which they are not. Basically gaslighting.
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No, but the double standards should be called out, mostly by DBD influencers (streamers, fog whisperers, content creators, etc.)
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
I think toxicity is not defined by one's actions within a game, but one's actions outside of a game.
However, in regards to the amount of toxicity, if you took the amount of people who play solely each side, youll find an even percentage of toxic players for either side. You are more likely to run across a toxic player who is a survivor just from the role demanding more people in comparison to killer.
But ultimately, I think double standards should be directed towards to players who use them, Im kind of tired of the "all survivors do ___" and "all killers do ___" posts. We cant have one day without some form of discourse.
DBD community likes to use "toxic" as in "strong, oppressive gameplay" with some extra flashlight clicks & teabags there and here rather than the actual definition of a toxic player. So I used the same definition, even though I disagree with the definition itself.
Though I think using double standards itself is also a toxic thing to do. If you tell the opposing side how to play the game, but ignore your own gameplay and be hypocritical, then it's not a nice thing to do. Even more so if you shame the opposing side for it (which usually happens)
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@Lynxx said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3238191#Comment_3238191
I think it says everything when a 3-letter response to a wall of text op gets 3x as many up votes at the time of this comment.
Survivors would rather give up and complain rather than adapt - it is known. The 6.10 patch exposed a lot of survivor players whose mentality is very weak. Temporary DC penalty removal also proved how fragile the player base is.
That "lol" just proves how stubborn the community is and I'm glad the game is not balanced around them.
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@Lynxx said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3238191#Comment_3238191
I think it says everything when a 3-letter response to a wall of text op gets 3x as many up votes at the time of this comment.
Survivors would rather give up and complain rather than adapt - it is known. The 6.10 patch exposed a lot of survivor players whose mentality is very weak. Temporary DC penalty removal also proved how fragile the player base is.
That "lol" just proves how stubborn the community is and I'm glad the game is not balanced around them.