Ryuhi
Ryuhi
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4049256#Comment_4049256
I agree that the HUD (plus perks) gives you enough for the most part once you have some gamesense. I use Deja Vu to have constant info on gens and to break 3 gens. I use Empathy to know where the killer is most of the time, as well as monitoring injured people's whereabouts and going to heal them at proper times. I watch the HUD constantly. I do this whether I'm solo or not. Same perks, mostly, except a medkit instead of a toolbox. It takes some time to get the right level of gamesense and find your favorite perks for info. That's where I think the wheel would help, for people that haven't sunk thousands of hours in the game, or who have but just haven't developed any gamesense. At the very least, it'd be nice to be able to tell someone not to unhook you in the killer's face.
That's where I think the wheel would help, for people that haven't sunk thousands of hours in the game, or who have but just haven't developed any gamesense. At the very least, it'd be nice to be able to tell someone not to unhook you in the killer's face.Thats all well and good, but the fact that they aren't developing those skills means they are more likely to provide bad or pointless information with it than they are to properly assist someone. And unfortunately, everything is always everyone else's fault other than whoever is the one making the complaint. Since the information is redundant when properly digested, it becomes extra noise every time that kind of feature is utilized, and sometimes can contradict the HUD information if misinterpreted. The point of solo queue is supposed to be doing your best to work toward a shared goal within your own capacity while complimenting the successes and failures of your teammates doing the same: The moment survivors start taking over each other's agency instead of simply supporting it, that goes even further off base.
This is unfortunately a game where someone could have over 2000 hours, but have spent something like 1500 of them just watching a progress bar fill. While the average ratio is obviously nowhere near that, the point is that you don't have to learn how to play in every aspect to succeed beyond your abilities, something that obviously also applies to killers who overrely on LCD strats. My point is that I don't want those people to misinterpret information at me as a player when I may have already digested the correct information with the HUD and perks I have brought, especially since it then creates a point of frustration in that player if I don't heed their callout spam. If you've never seen an argument in a pub match in a MOBA or tactical FPS, people tend to get really angry when others don't follow their orders, especially when they're objectively bad calls. I feel it would hurt the community more than it would help it, especially given the fact its really not necessary.
Edit: forgot to mention, but thank you for talking about using perks to complement the HUD info as well as alternative info from perks like Empathy, as I feel like they really are something people don't practice enough.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4049226#Comment_4049226
Regardless, you admit that SWF would have given advantages even if it was turned from a stomp to a more even match which has always been my point. A chat wheel with spread out might have helped a little but clearly not as much as SWF on comms unless you include a way to call out specific locations to counter fright.
i have said many times all i seem to get is blight after blight after blight with the occasional nurse, ghoul and billy thrown it from time to time. You do love to assume lol but again your assumptions are incorrect. im just satisfied that you acknowledge SWF with comms can have an advantage…an advantage that your dead against soloq having as your previous argument was "SWF doesnt make bad players good"… clearly it would have had some sort of effect in your match where you were slugged which you have now admitted.
For as much as I see people push the chat wheel idea, nobody ever seems to think about the impacts that has on the rest of the game. Then again, they also don't tend to realize that the updated HUD information already almost all of the information that a chat wheel would, just without the whole idea of "being able to tell other people what to do." Almost anything you would want to convey through a chat wheel can be gleaned by paying attention to things like player statuses, their progress bars, the chase indicators, etc. The crux of the argument comes from wanting to force your teammates to utilize that information smarter, and this game was never designed around that. For anyone newer, believe it or not people used to be able to make those types of calls without any of that information, with the most you'd get being people being injured/down/hooked and maybe if the obsession was in chase.
Meanwhile if its spoken, you need to create new voice lines for all the actors. Then you have to decide whether it can be heard by the killer or not, and the consequences that would have for either decision. Obviously this would cause extra issues with celebrity voices. If not spoken, the same question applies regarding whether the killer can see it or not. All of this also hinges on the multilingual playerbase of the game as well: Only English? Match the client's language? Since different languages have shorter or longer ways of saying the same thing, now you have to localize everything in a way where meaning is maintained while keeping the text concise enough to not flood the screen with clutter text. And you better put a long cooldown on everything regardless of the method so you don't get L4D-tier callout spam.
Its never as simple as just putting a speech wheel in because other games which were designed around them are able to have them. This game was designed around limited communication, and the updates to the HUD have been an honestly great way of giving players the ability to get that information themselves, without running into those caveats in either application or usage. I'll always go back to kindred as my example on the subject: Everyone wants it basekit, all 4 survivors benefit when even a single person does, it becomes even stronger regarding hated strategies like camping, it supplements the HUD information extremely well, when taken personally it fills all of the info gaps the moment someone is on a hook, its not a p2w perk, yet nobody takes it because they need to keep room in their loadout for a literal yellow paint perk that stunts growth.
Sorry for getting a bit sidetracked, I just really hate the quick chat idea.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4049221#Comment_4049221
I can't speak for what OP intended, but I take it as both a vent and a commentary on the community's lack of criticism — sure, plenty of people do criticize BHVR, but more people could and should do that.
To be honest, its hard to actually discuss things involving the game with the amount of venting that goes on. And that includes being able to provide actual criticism. Everyone knows morale is… low, to say the least.
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@Astaroth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4049212#Comment_4049212
Nothing. I can't control people. Ignorance is bliss.
I think most of us are confused as to the point of the topic then. A lot of people give them crap regularly when its deserved. If you're focused on the ones who don't, counterbalance them with the ones who get unreasonably angry with the devs and just tune out both extremes.
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@dbd900bach said:
Unfortunately it's never going to happen. The simple nature of certain killers completely limits them from being high tier no matter what you do with them.
Ghostface is good example of a killer that will never be top tier simply because he can't exert enough pressure on the map or the gens. If a killer doesn't have map control or a movement based ability, then they're mid or low tier automatically. Then that ability actually needs to be decent.
Ultimately the games base design, design philosophies and overall map design will always keep most killers from being more than what they are now. Unless we want everything being dash slop, it won't matter.
There is always possibility when you don't limit your scope. Things as simple as their failed attempt at encouraging fresh hooks is a simple example, but more static elements of the game can be adapted to be better tailored towards the strengths and weaknesses on either a categorical or individual scale. Instead a few killers have a bit different move speeds and TRs, maybe some variation in view height that affects certain tiles. Its only impossible if you're not willing to try, and unfortunately this last year showed us a glimpse of what them trying actually looks like. They're never going to figure out balance until they stumble into a solution, and its going to be a matter of how much it costs the game's health and community to get there.
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@CompetitifDBD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4046812#Comment_4046812
the sweet spot couldn't be more obvious
The ironic thing is that it was a pretty unanimous reaction that the effect needs to be normalized between maps before any action was taken, which hasn't even been tried in a PTB since.
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Shouldn't be shaming anyone willing to play things out, honestly.
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Thats the best part about "the backburner" with this game, its where issues go to die. Or get a lazy attempt that doesn't work every few years.
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@BongoBoys said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4043895#Comment_4043895
How dense. The main reason people have problems with things is frustration due to poor balancing and design that's Ghouls whole problem. Proper nerfs won't drop him to F tier like SM he'll just drop to A-tier so quit defending ghoul fearing for an SM treatment.
How dense.Have a good day.
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@Defnotmeghead said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4043738#Comment_4043738
Dude, I work in IT. I deal with tickets. I know the process. I've written literal essays on why things are too strong/too weak, giving videos, pictures, given examples, given tweaks in numbers that could be implemented within 1 update just to see if it has impact or not. 2 years ago, that would have 100% lead to change. Not neccesarily the suggested change, but change nonetheless to the killer. All because people who have 400+ hours into a specific killer giving feedback on why things do and dont work. And some of the changes were better, other changes made things worse and were altered relatively quickly again.
The past 1.5 years? The only times posts would lead to change, is if they reached live streams or twitter outrage. That alone is terrible indication.
My guess? Oh, yknow, the 95 people that were laid off about 2 years ago, mainly marketing, which includes community managers and mods that would actually read posts on here and create tickets to send them to the proper places. Not saying the current mods and managers aren't doing so, but 100% there are less people being able to do so, so constructive feedback simply isnt good enough anymore. It has to go semi-viral before it's noticed, which is why yelling works better than feedback right now.
I am not pointing at any specific part of the feedback process being at fault, but it's been broken. I've reported bugs the way I do at my own job, which includes how to repeat it, when I first noticed it, when I confirmed it, everything involved with it and even guesses what the culprit could be based on testing. And being very honest, I know for a fact the people I work with work less hard than the devs at bhvr, because we have 1/5th the amount of people, but the size of our releases are 1/10th of BHVR. Yet, if anyone sends in a report, that bug is fixed within the next year, even if it's just a typo somewhere. I've seen bigger bugs go unfixed for the past 1.5 years that would usually be fixed within 3 months. Once again, all because the feedback system currently doesnt work as it should. So despite creating a ticket the way I do at work so that it can go to a program like Jira pretty much copy-pasted, with screenshots, with details, it's odd that it doesnt get fixed or killswitched untill enough people find out to actually abuse it, people yell on live streams and twitter because now it's negatively affecting their games.
Remember the OoO bug where your aura reveal to your teammates would DC your teammates? I reported that 3 weeks before it got viral, in that same period of time, DC penalties were disabled. When it got viral, OoO got killswtiched and it was fixed 1 week later with a hotfix. Implying they were working on a ticket before it got viral and just using as muiive data to gather info on where it goes wrong. Remember the Streetwise bug? That was known and reported on the PTB feedback page, 6 weeks prior to release. Then it got send to live, 3 days later, it went viral. 2 days after that, it got killswitched and didnt get fixed for about a month. Implying that they were unaware of the bug at all, because they could have killswitched it going live, simply saying it was temporarily bugged. THAT is the difference these days. I dont know why that is such a hard concept to grasp.Since you work in IT, lets start there. If you have an issue that is taking time to fix, and one person messages or emails you with information that can fix the problem, thats great, right? Even if they're not giving you the solution, they might be helping you isolate its cause. But instead of seeing that message, you have to go through thousands of
GOOGLE WONT WORK FIX NOW,maybe a few long winded rant sessions about how they need the situation resolved by 2pm or it'll cost them a major client, and other unconstructive junk pours in emphasizing urgency over anything remotely helpful, does that not clog up the pipeline? hell, its literally comparable to spam mail vs important messages, and the entire reason why we have filters for those in the first place.I feel like you're operating under the assumption I'm somehow defending BHVR's handling of feedback, which I have actually been vocal about on a few occasions over the years. Hell, the pallets comments in the livechat were a great example of how they tried to play off feedback as being vapid when it was about a very hot topic in the game at the time. I'm saying that the more you clog up feedback channels with insipid whining, the more you give them excuse to ignore you. Your militant perspective has had successes in the past with the game, and very rarely have they been positive for the game's health as a result. I talk about how they monkey paw user feedback constantly by not understanding what its supposed to mean, and just going off of their kneejerk reaction to it. When entire killers, who are unique across the entire roster (though some have obnoxiously copied aspects) are in the balance, your choices have a direct impact on a significant portion of the customer base. That means that regardless of how important small changes are, their further reaching consequences are equally-if-not-more important to consider, which is why these decisions should be made on actual feedback, and not just generalized dissatisfaction.
I'm saying you're literally giving them the fuel and excuses to do exactly what you accuse them of. If the only feedback they get is constructive, it becomes significantly harder to ignore. And since there is no transparency on how these things are handled internally past things like the dev streams and the product that sees at least a PTB, that fact is crucial to actually having your voice heard and not giving plausable deniability to it when its actually sound advice.
Edit: in regards to when it does work, I'd like you to equally consider when it doesn't. Note how your examples are about bugs and not balance. That in itself makes them much more clearly identifiable and less subjective. Meanwhile CoH stayed overtuned for a very long time, Overbrine actually saw the light of day and stuck around for far too long, and MFT eventually got nerfed by the same arguments that were being presented in its beta. The constant is that we can't control how BHVR takes our suggestions or even evidence, but if the bulk of it is just focused on general dissatisfaction, that prioritizes speed over quality in a reaction, and is why we have so much useless content in the game from items to perks to addons to whole characters. We want less digital garbage in our game, not more, and if you are willing to dumpster things without even trying reasonable solutions, you're kinda robbing people of content they likely paid for.
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@BongoBoys said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4043846#Comment_4043846
I was a original freddy main and later down the line a SM Main it's sucks what happened to them but you just gotta accept it ain't coming back like it used to be and move on. Your clearly just going to continue having a problem with it no matter how many people will tell you I'm no longer going to respond to you.
Thats not my point. My point is that the Ghoul can very easily join their ranks if he gets kneecapped to appease people just venting their frustration instead of providing actual feedback about the things that frustrate them without any clear focus or direction. You haven't really made any points to try to change my mind, you just keep trying to shift your arguments away from my points on the subject. In case it wasn't obvious, I'd like to see the Ghoul get nerfs, but specifically ones that don't involve gutting him then putting him on the backburner for years awaiting a proper evaluation. If your main reason for hating him is frustration, you shouldn't even be arguing with me in the first place.
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@BongoBoys said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4043839#Comment_4043839
She gotten buffed recently nowhere near as she was but least it's something
And if that was how your preferred playstyle (since killers are more than skins, and no I'm not talking about the peak of her infamous design issues) was treated, would you be ok with that level of scraps? She isn't even the first killer that happened to, Freddy was dumpstered for years before even a single update to address any of his issues, which were the results of panic nerfs.
Why not instead FIX the issues that people specifically get frustrated with?
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@BongoBoys said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4043828#Comment_4043828
I am focusing on that and no SM has largely been forgotten about it's all about ghoul now
You know who hasn't forgotten SM? People who would like to play her as a functioning, viable killer. But hey, maybe they'll figure it out by the 20th rework in another 40 years.
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@BongoBoys said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4043822#Comment_4043822
Bro you and I have done this song and dance already I'm just going to say this then it's done.
Yes Ghoul is more hated then old skull merchant ever was there is also people in this VERY THREAD explaining and linking other similar post topics with substantial substance on why Ghoul is majorly hated by everyone.
If dbd ran a Global official poll for everyone to Vote on most hated Killer it would be Ghoul who would win.
there is also people in this VERY THREAD explaining and linking other similar post topics with substantial substance on why Ghoul is majorly hatedExactly, so focus on doing that instead of forcing in the
by everyonepart. Hyperbole makes your opinion look less credible.If dbd ran a Global official poll for everyone to Vote on most hated Killer it would be Ghoul who would win.And it stayed as Skull Merchant even after she got obliterated multiple times, because people were that frustrated with a previous version that had been gone for ages by then. This is why vitriol alone isn't effective as feedback, and has collateral damage elsewhere in the playerbase.
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@BongoBoys said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4043430#Comment_4043430
They shouldn't be looking at data alone? When 99% of the user base hates going against the killer they should take that into consideration
Do you have hard facts that it's 99% of the community? Or is that just an inflated number you assume because you want it to be the case?
Its well known there are many vocal complaints about the character, but thats all the more reason why its important for those grievances to consist of more substance than just dissatisfaction. We already have a history of that ending very badly for sometimes years within this game about particular aspects, especially particular killers overall.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4043504#Comment_4043504
The point i'm making is not that those players don't exist in those games. They do, but those players are often made fun of by the community at large and told to "git gud". But for some reason the majority of players in DBD are like this.
If there are more scrubs than players who want to improve, why would the scrubs turn on each other about things like personal improvement or adaptation? Most only care when it impacts their own games, unfortunately.
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@Defnotmeghead said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4043290#Comment_4043290
As someone who has created a LOT of constructive feedback. It doesnt help.
With this PTB, that's literally killer number 2 that gets free injuries without any skill needed to do so, without any downsides to it. On top of that having an ability like Krasue that on paper sounds fair, but its extremely easy to turn a non-damaging ability into a damaging one.
Plague has free injures, but she's an m1 killer untill she gets her power from a basin, which is limited to how often survivors cleanse. Legion has relatively free injures, but its relatively difficult to use his power to get downs.
Like, imagine Doctor got the ability to use his Static Blast to injure survivors that were madness T2 or higher. That would instantly make him an A tier killer, if not higher.
Constructive feedback has proven to not be the best way of getting change to happen. They literally didnt even adjust the kidnap tech untill outrage on a stream that happened 7 months after release. Despite 7 months worth of constructive feedback, it was 10 minutes of frustrated yelling that got the attention to actually get changed.
And just for the mods: that's not an invite to start yelling for change. But this definitely is a sign that BHVR should streamline their processes again, because this is 2019 DBD again, where yelling on streams worked while forum feedback was mainly ignored. We want 2020-2021 DBD back, where forum feedback actually had notable impact and screaming on stream wasnt neccesary.
As someone who works in IT, I know for a fact that Ghoul should have been a high priority case on the backlog due to how often people complain about playing against him, and due to how often he is being played. Yet he is being treated as if people play him as much as people play Twins.
That alone is indicative that someone either purposely is ignoring things, some stakeholder(possibly license holder) has a lot of influence to keep Ghoul as he is now, or messages never reach the backlog.
I genuinely hope that the license holder is the main reason Ghoul isnt getting changes, because the other 2 are worse.As someone who has created a LOT of constructive feedback. It doesnt help.Thats not how feedback works. You have no idea if your ideas might have led to multiple hour long internal debates on whether it would work or not, or if they were just discarded as complaining before even being read. That's my point. The best thing you can do when providing feedback is to make it as constructive and open ended as possible, and reverting to petulant complaining is a surefire way to get it discarded. In a system where the only real possible feedback would be getting your way and seeing your changes ingame, I don't understand why this is such a hard concept to grasp.
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@random1543 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4043397#Comment_4043397
Do you hold people who complained about pallet density and tunneling ptbs to such high standards for feedback? You are holding complaining about something that is unfun and bad about the game to some sort of high standards of criticism before it is valid, people have given clear as day changes they would be happy with in this thread.
Man I'm not the forum police, I'm just trying to be helpful.
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@BongoBoys said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4043388#Comment_4043388
Ok Ghoul is a very high mobility killer with his power and should be 4.4ms instead of 4.6ms Scamper on ghoul is problematic and always has been and adding a 50% hinder to the grabbed target make that's even were so they should both be removed like Chucky's was.
Auto aim grab attack needs to be reworked or tweet somehow because not only does it take away skill expression by being auto aim but it injures and deep wounds survivors easily since I know Devs are gonna take forever to rework him so a solution they could do is Survivors need to be marked first before they can become injured or just make it so it only powers up kaneki only no injure.
Ghoul also has extremely short cooldowns being able to cancel mid leap is very strong and can quickly follow up with a m1 a fix for this should be he has to land before he can cancel his leap and his attack cooldown should be 4 seconds before he can attack after cancel his power.
Still might come off as complaining, but much more to work with.
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@BongoBoys said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4043318#Comment_4043318
Your dismissing actual feedback as unconstructive complaining when in reality it is feedback I've already explained he's a low effort high reward due to his design his auto aim grab attack his scamper his hinder he applys when he scampers on you tons of reasons tbh
Ok, now take that and try to be constructive with it instead of just saying "its bad fix it." Offer solutions, identify aspects of why those are issues, just give them something to work with.
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@Nicholas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4043245#Comment_4043245
I never said it was your fault, and I believe you. I have friends in remote corners of the world that would love better internet infrastructure, too! My point is that the way the game punishes Survivors with good or better connections to improve The Killer's experience. And while you're not among them, some people induce the conditions necessary to gain an advantage; it happens in other games, too.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4043254#Comment_4043254
It's entitled to think that a game should accommodate you at the expense of other players because you live in Timbuktu, have economic and/or geographic considerations/limitations that negatively impact your online experience. It's unfortunate, whatever the circumstances are, but I'm no fan of the punishing experience. Those players can choose not to play or accept that their experience may be diminished based on their internet connection. The server is neutral and fair, and it should be the arbiter of hits.
I spent a few weeks visiting a friend in Cambodia (an amazing country), and I couldn't play one of my favorite FPS games because that game punishes lag with Server-Side Authority. The game even warned me that my ping and connection were suboptimal and that I shouldn't play. I tried DbD as Killer, maybe 1-2 rejected hits due to extreme lag, but I got some 3-4ks, and I know the experience was miserable for the Survivors. I've also done experiments with using a mobile hotspot to test 'Favor The Killer,' and it's massive. Survivors get punished and screwed while my delayed and laggy hits connect. It's a bad system.
It's entitled to think that a game should accommodate you at the expense of other players because you live in Timbuktu, have economic and/or geographic considerations/limitations that negatively impact your online experience.Remember when I said hyperbole is detrimental to this topic? People in flyover states in a country like the USA might only have one option that isn't satellite or dial up. Internet availability and network distribution can be a lot worse than you think, even in 2026. In that very post, I even stated:
When it gets to the point of numbers like 200+, it becomes something that the offending player needs to evaluate how disruptive they are being toward the game (similar to people who have frequent outages/dc issues) but thats part of why these ping thresholds are important to be reasonable about.Meaning, I don't disagree with that statement when its not just hyperbole. I do have reservations about geography however, as I'm pretty sure that is usually considered a pretty important aspect to trade regulations in some countries. Not sure what the thresholds are (if any?) regarding things like reasonable server distance requirements are on different digital platforms either, but it really could be a matter of reasonable expectation for that to be solved by BHVR and blaming the affected consumer would be a bit disingenuous.
The server is neutral and fair, and it should be the arbiter of hits.Its literally not in some cases, for the reasons I've already explained. Since the game was designed with an expectation that the killer's ping will always be zero due to being the host, a lot of things were impacted by the shift to dedicated servers. This can happen often with things like animation timings, as now they possibly need to have a more variable timing to avoid desync issues, and it doesn't take long for things like visible hits to roll back into misses, yet still potentially carry over followup code for things like the blade wipe animation. The game's foundation was not written to work that way, and we don't exactly know if they are still running into aspects of its p2p roots that are affecting how its netcode functions today.
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@THE_Crazy_Hyena said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4043278#Comment_4043278
What if he got changed to injure normally with the grab attack, and only trigger Deep Wounds if he used it again on an already injured survivor.
Also, the hitscan needs to go, to make it a little more challenging to land.I like the idea of making it more of a skill shot than a hitscan, brings it more in line with how a lot of other ranged attacks need to be lead, and raises the skill requirement without really hurting the ceiling much. That type of change in DW could also open up a little more variety in enraged vs non-enraged state as well. It would be pretty easy to monkey paw that one though, so they'd really have to test how that kinda stuff ends up before it should see a PTB.
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@BongoBoys said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4043305#Comment_4043305
It is feedback and many other ghoul threads have given plenty of great examples of his problems and what they suggest to fix them your also a bias killer main so
How am I "bias killer main", and how does unconstructive complaining twist into constructive feedback? Yes other people have made actual cases and provided legitimate feedback in other topics, my point is that by flooding channels with aimless complaining, you do more to bury those cases and drown them out.
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@BongoBoys said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4043257#Comment_4043257
The end user experience is 99% of Survivors don't like going against Ghoul cause he's a S-Tier low effort high reward killer due to his design and we want him to be adjusted accordingly. But Devs have been ignoring the feedback we have been providing.
Thats not feedback, thats complaints. Feedback would be along the lines of my previous post, even when you don't have reasonable solutions, at least giving the devs a place to start with their approach is both constructive and gives merit to your reasoning. Focus on specific aspects or concepts, and do so in a measured and not emotionally driven manner. If something you dislike is a core component to his kit or identity, explore ways of reducing its frustration without destroying its viability. Addons, items, even perks are one thing, but whole killers need a lot more insight than "I don't like it" or "its too easy to do good."
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@Philscooper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4043264#Comment_4043264
Yet it works alot more.
Perks that got nerfed over heavy backlash :
Shoulder the burden, fog-vials, wake up.
wicked got a rework due to the many complains.
At this point we tried to be constructivey but it should take 9 months to make one killer who recently came out not frustrating to play against.
At this point we tried to be constructiveyThats exactly my point. When its just constant complaints with no actual considerations or reasonable feedback, it leads to kneejerk reactions that dumpster something to calm the fire instead of actually fixing it. Fog vials are actually a great example, because the most constructive arguments (especially normalization between maps before ANY opacity adjustments) got ignored or lost in a sea of posts showing loaded examples of it being too strong or weak depending on the map, using them to try to force arguments about it being too strong or not strong enough. As someone who has a lot of accessibility issues with the item (still do, so literally nobody is happy with their current state) I absolutely would have preferred measured re-evaluations were made as the items variables were more contained, but instead, its just bloodweb clutter now.
but it should take 9 months to make one killer who recently came out not frustrating to play against.If you think 9 months is a long time to wait for a promised change, you might not be terribly familiar with this game's history (or present, for that matter.)
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@100PercentBPMain said:
will any amount of nerfs kill the Ghoul complaints? even if he is Skull Merchant'd people will still hate him.
I hate to say it, but probably not. And its a shame, because a good portion of it is warranted, but it gets lost in the blind rage. Gotta agree that smerch is a good example, and a good warning.
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@random1543 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4043257#Comment_4043257
Topic is why hasn't the ghoul been changed even tho the community clearly thinks he needs to be.
I am voicing my outrage with lack of consideration to complaints against ghoul.And I'm saying that raw outrage is not feedback.
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@random1543 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4043247#Comment_4043247
I have commented on numerous ghoul posts over the months suggesting how they can either remove the lock on free hit and make him a mobility catch up killer, or keep the lock on hit but you are going to have to nerf his cooldowns and mobility catch up playstyle.
Kind of cant say same things over and over, he needs changes its clear as day
Edit: could of added solution in original but legit people have been complaining about this so much and they don't do anything its tiringThats great! This topic isn't that, which is my point. You also don't know if they read your posts, and just disagreed with them. Feedback isn't about demands, its about letting devs know what the end user experience entails.
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@Nicholas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042803#Comment_4042803
The problem is that when you reward lag, it leads people to induce those conditions, such as using a mobile hotspot or a VPN for an advantage. Your internet troubles or limitations, such as poor internet infrastructure, shouldn't dictate the experience for everyone. There are players in remote corners of the world who expect a great experience at the expense of everyone else. It's not fun or fair to see your ping at 20 and The Killer at 200, easily getting hits that shouldn't connect.
The reason this is usually considered entitled is because internet access is not universally available (or even affordable) in all regions where people play the game. When it gets to the point of numbers like 200+, it becomes something that the offending player needs to evaluate how disruptive they are being toward the game (similar to people who have frequent outages/dc issues) but thats part of why these ping thresholds are important to be reasonable about. something like 80 or 90 ping might be on very good internet, just far from the nearest regional servers. Its a topic where hyperbole is particularly misleading, which is why people acting like 90 ping is as bad as 300 aren't particularly helpful to the issue.
Its also worth noting that there is much more to netcode than just ping. And considering this game was a P2P connection that got morphed into using dedicated servers, the backend probably looks much different than any of us are aware. It wouldn't be unreasonable to want improvements to be focused there (beyond just shifting validations between clients and servers) as much as possible. Even something as simple as more server regions to reduce particularly long distances could make a pretty big difference.
For the record, I don't think anyone on any side supports things like lag switching or other ping manipulation, unless they're the ones doing it. Tends to be a pretty obvious way people tell on themselves if they advocate for it.
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@random1543 said:
PTB seems to be lacking any changes to the ghoul even tho your community is out crying for you to nerf him.
I personally wont keep quiet until he is fixed so he isn't miserable to verse.Don't mean to downplay or anything, but self reporting it as "crying" for nerfs and not offering constructive feedback doesn't really get the ball rolling on that front. A lot of time that kind of stuff gets filtered out by game devs as noise, similar to feedback that laser focuses on aspects to complain about while offering little in perspective for improvement. Even if its just places to start more than just "this is what needs to be changed," the more helpful the more likely it'll be taken as more than just complaining.
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@runningguy said:
i wont tag because you seem to not like it but i will say…. pvp means player v player. you are thinking of a co-op game where players work together and win together. That is not dbd.
PVP means two or more players have objectives that are at odds with one another. Teams within PVP games are not at odds with each other, unless explicitly stated, often due to a lack of rewards (everyone gets one key for victory, but there aren't enough chests type of scenarios as an example.) If the game were actually 1v1v1v1v1, it would be a pvp free for all mode, a battle royale, whatever flavor you prefer. It would not one where almost everything revolves around assisting one another. You can't even self heal without resources. Your teammates are as much, if not more, valuable of a potential resource than anything else in the match.
The hatch was designed specifically to prevent players from hiding in lockers for literal hours trying to get the killer to give up. Hatch standoffs were the first very blatant flaw in how it defies the rest of the game's design. You get nothing specifically for screwing over your teammates outside of things like perks that were designed for the same reason as hatch: To stop people from giving up and holding the game hostage until the killer gives up. They not only had to lower the server time limit because of both killers and survivors exploiting it, but they even had to give the killer a token 10 minute no progress abandon condition. Thats how much of a problem people giving up and refusing to take the hand they're dealt has been in this game's history, and how the mentality persists even despite it all.
Edit: and to really drive the point home, sandbagging is directly against the rules of the game. That would be, essentially, the essence of purposely going "vs" your teammates.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042878#Comment_4042878
it sounds more like you are ignoring every single thing that suggests the game is not strictly a team game because it doesnt fit your belief of what the game should be. Its a choice. i have said i dont always leave them die, just quite often i do. i have saved people, looped, healed people. We all have a choice on how to play the game, work as a team or not… not working as a team when the team works for me. if working working a team works for you then great, we all play out own way and do what works for us.
it sounds more like you are ignoring every single thing that suggests the game is not strictly a team game because it doesnt fit your belief of what the game should be.You're free to think that, but I'm pretty sure thats not how pvp game design (or the concept of teams in general) works. At this point I honestly don't care what you think about my position, and you're welcome to not tag me if you want to ramble self justifications. If you understood how much your mindset contributes to the sheer entitlement in this community, you might understand why its tiring to continue trying to explain these things to you.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042872#Comment_4042872
if people stealth it doesnt mean its my job to loop the killer. its either or….i can stealth and do gens thats why i do what i do. i cant do gens if im looping.
you say im one of those 3 not doing the objective when im doing gens lol the objective is do gens and escape it is not loop the killer. How the gens are done can differ and looping can help but it is not the objective.
i dont assume other players hold me back, i know they do from experience. you cant expect SWF standards to apply when solo does not have SWF things such as comms.
IF we have the same shared common goal…. whos to say we do in solo? if i have a hatch challenge then we do not have a shared common goal, the hatch is my goal. Therefore we are not on the same page and not a team. we share the same role (survivor) and we can work together if we choose to. But we can also work alone to achieve whatever personal goal we have. it is not just the 1 v 1 v 1 v 1 v1 quote that states this, the description on steam also states players can work as a team or play selfishly.
If the hatch mechanic is only designed for when players have lost then why does it spawn after 3 have left via the gate after doing gens? and why is it still in the game when we can abandon when we are last survivor remaining? Regardless of how you feel about the poor mmr system or bad design of the rewards system it is still a fact these things grade people as individuals not a team. Even playing the way i do i still get to iri 1 rank in the first few nights of playing the game so whatever im doing seems to work on multiple levels, reduce tunneling, increase escapes, increase fun, increase grade emblems. When or IF they change it so we are scored as a team and when 3 man out while i die on hook means the team wins then yes it will be a team, untill no its not. You might not like it and you might wish it was something else but like it or not this is the reality of the game as it is now.
i share the steam game description which i have done previously:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/Q9VSCK8ALEE1/screenshot-2025-09-17-011857.png
You can share it all you want. Its just proof you fundamentally don't understand half the game's design, and cling to an edgy description about how you can leave people behind in the exit gate as justification to being actively opposed to them. Cheers.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042800#Comment_4042800
This is true, and many don't want advice. Sometimes people just want to complain or commiserate. I do get pretty tired of the forum being spammed by people who just got hard tunneled by a Blight at 5 gens or dunked on by a comp 4man. I think this is just a weird place for that but the forum is rather loose on rules. If you have something worthwhile to say about the mechanics, or even a well thought out emotional take, then cool. But there are always these people (like some of our recent bans) who have a bad match or two then immediately come to the forum to blow off steam with zero-thoughts posts that belong more on a personal blog. It would be nice if people could reflect a bit more instead of knee-jerking. When you get hot, take a moment to cool before screaming into the internet void.For example, I had what might have been my worst session as killer last night, and a casual couple hours turned into an eight-hour manic episode on a work night with the sun coming up making me finally stop. That, and a 25-minute match that became essentially a 1v1 against probably the best survivor I've ever played against. But I didn't run to the forum to rage against perks or opponenents. I knew the whole time I wasn't in my right mind and they I also had no valid complaints, just a whole lot of unfiltered anger.
And to the other point, about everyone coming into a match with a different mindset, by the end of these matches, I was not acting like me. I wasn't letting anyone get the hatch, I wasn't swerving on recent unhooks, I wasn't being considerate of anyone's feelings. I played overly aggressive and I'm sure I made some people have a bad time. So even when someone is being nasty, it's not necessarily how they always are. They might just be having a bad run and are low on empathy. When people are treating me in what feels like a crappy way, I try to keep that in mind as well. The only thing I won't really excuse is unwarranted BMing.
Unfortunately a lot of it comes down to ego. One of the biggest aspects of the scrub mentality is a desire to shift blame away from oneself, which is why "I lost because of X! Ban it so I lose less!" is such a popular direction these posts tend to take, especially when seeking vindication more than improvement. Improvement requires taking personal responsibility, and that seems to get disincentivized more with every year.
As for the end, thats an unfortunate aspect of Tilt. Everything tends to get less about logic and reason, more about emotion and impulse. Its the essence of when to take a break, because even aside from all of that, it tends to make people play worse (especially in terms of things like patience and strategy) so its generally just best to take a step back whenever feeling it coming on. I can't count how many loss spirals it took me to take that one to heart, especially in games that really scratch that "just one more game before bed" itch.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042869#Comment_4042869
No matter what i do i rely on my team mates….if i loop i rely on the team to do gens. if they dont do gens my looping is a waste of time which is often the case in soloq. if i stealth i rely on others looping well. if they dont then gens are not getting done by the time the killer gets a kill, especially if they have pain res. fact is, when 3 other people on the team dont do the objective and generally dont bother then there is a point where i have to rely on my own ability to stay alive long enough to get hatch or open gate at the end.
There is a reason i play the way i do…. soloq players do go adepts, they do totem challenges, go for blinds, meme around, go next or DC. What your describing where people share hooks, share chase time, this is SWF not soloq.
Everything about the game suggests it is not a "team". it is 1 v 1 v 1 v 1 v 1….the survivors may have a common goal they may not, they may work as a team, they may not. This is how the game is designed. Everything points to this, the hatch, the score system, mmr, BP rewards, personal challenges even perks designed around stealth and selfish play. With this in mind, it is irrelevant if my actions are a detriment to the "team" because there is no team
No matter what i do i rely on my team mates….if i loop i rely on the team to do gens. if they dont do gens my looping is a waste of time which is often the case in soloqThats true, but so is preemptively letting your teammates down by not doing your job when its time to step up. And to reiterate, your job is more than just being a gen jockey (regardless of how important doing gens is.)
if i stealth i rely on others looping well.And if they stealth, they rely on you to loop well. See how quickly it falls apart when 50% of your team is actively avoiding the killer?
if they dont then gens are not getting done by the time the killer gets a kill, especially if they have pain res.And the only way you can directly control that is by using your superior looping skill to waste the kiler's time. You can hope that others will step up and do it for you, but you can (I assume) actively control yourself in game. Notice how there is a constant? It even improves in efficiency as your skill does, as chase on both sides is arguably the biggest form of skill expression in the game, and can be directly improved on the individual level.
fact is, when 3 other people on the team dont do the objective and generally dont bother then there is a point where i have to rely on my own ability to stay alive long enough to get hatch or open gate at the end.And your solution is to be one of those 3 right off of the bat. Because again, gluing yourself to gens can only include avoiding the killer if you avoid any and all pressure they apply on said area. Just to make sure we're on the same page, excessive stealth isn't the same thing as "not running directly into the killer," its putting avoidance above any of your objectives that may jeopardize it. Hatch is also a pity escape, and being able to open the gate after hatch is closed is extremely RNG dependent on gate positions. Its more effective to work toward actually escaping the right way than it is playing in a way that specifically hopes to be given scraps from the table.
There is a reason i play the way i do…. soloq players do go adepts, they do totem challenges, go for blinds, meme around, go next or DC. What your describing where people share hooks, share chase time, this is SWF not soloq.Thats a self fulfiling roadblock. You only expect that kind of stuff from SWF because you assume everyone in solo holds you back, yet your playstyle actively holds back everyone around you by design. If more players thought like you and whatnot.
Everything about the game suggests it is not a "team". it is 1 v 1 v 1 v 1 v 1….the survivors may have a common goal they may not, they may work as a team, they may not.That stupid quote did more damage to this game's community than release Legion. You aren't "vs" your teammates if you have the same shared goal, and it isn't mutually exclusive to their own completion. The gate doesn't have 3 exits and one person is forced to stay behind. The closest you have to any vs between survivors is ironically regarding rats waiting out the hatch spawn vs each other. You are on a team with your teammates.
This is how the game is designed. the hatch, the score system, mmr, BP rewards, personal challenges even perks designed around stealth and selfish play.Lets do a rundown real quick. A pity mechanic designed to prevent players from giving up when they've already lost, A score system that has limits on categories to force diversification in how you play (including 1/4th minimum of the total being dedicated to interacting with the killer, and another 1/4th being dedicated to helping teammates) an extremely badly implimented MMR that nobody has been happy with pretty much since its introduction, "BP rewards"(?) which I'm assuming is referring to rank rewards(?) which are determined by emblems and not escapes (many pips requiring, again, well rounded play including both interacting with the killer and literal altruism) personal challenges which have pretty much always just been directions to sandbag yourself selectively since their inception, and rat perks being in the game.
With this in mind, it is irrelevant if my actions are a detriment to the "team" because there is no teamThen I hope you get out of every match exactly what you put into them in your future, my friend. May you live forever.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042865#Comment_4042865
Indeed, which is why my very first post on this threat stated i have no empathy for either side. I agree my self growth benefits me not the team because it is not strictly a team game. You cant please everyone no matter how hard you try. If half the team wants to win and the other half want to mess around having fun then someone will not be happy, so i dont play to what others want or what others like, i play for me and my goal and my enjoyment.
The people that complain about useless survivors are complaining about the people that refuse to touch gens, go down in 10 seconds, fail skill checks, make mistakes like unhooking infront of a camping bubba. I actually do gens, i last longer in chase than a lot of people, i dont fail skill checks and i dont make mistakes like unhooking infront of a camping bubba, i heal team mates when the killer isnt around. Just because i dont let myself get chased doesnt mean im not doing my part.
Admitting to having zero empathy for other players, including your teammates, while resting on your laurels as they drag you across the finish line is… certainly a flex. "If more people thought like you" then your escape rate would be in single digits. Sentiments like
i last longer in chase than a lot of peoplemean nothing if you actively avoid ever being spotted. AlsoJust because i dont let myself get chased doesnt mean im not doing my part.is an oxymoron when drawing the killer's attention away from vulernable teammates is part of "your part." Again, if its a 6 hook game and you have 0 hooks, everyone else is on death hook and your chances of being one hooked (either by being left there, or nobody being in a position to save you) go up exponentially.There is absolutely nothing wrong with avoiding the killer strategically. Making them waste time searching near a 75% complete gen, misleading them away from someone who might be getting tunneled, being on death hook and banking on the killer dumping extra effort into finding you, there are absolutely times where stealth is a very smart play. But avoidance is actively not, and the game design for everything minus the hatch is centered around interaction more than non-interaction. If you can't understand any of this, at least try to understand that you are being an active detriment to your team if you refuse to engage with the killer, especially if you "last longer in chase than a lot of people."
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042859#Comment_4042859
That depends. Like everything its all situational. It just happens to be many many situations calls for stealth. i dont ALWAYS leave my team to die. i do sometimes save them when i feel its the right choice to make which would help in my escape, like if they are a good looper its worth going for the save so they can buy me even more time. If more players played like me then more gens would get done, killer wouldnt find people as easy, people wouldnt be tunneled out at 5 gens. I wish players did play like me, maybe if they did then i wouldnt think "why risk myself to unhook a awful looper that will go down in 10sec after i have been hooked trying to save them?"
How i escape is irrelevant to me, an escape is an escape. gates boost MMR and hatch keeps it neutral so next time i escape via gate it would go up again. Some things are out of my control, like if 3 team mates go next or go down instantly all together i cant do much about it but im not going to let them bring me down with them.
All that is besides the point, my point is that playing my way works for me, it makes it fun, prevents me being tunneled and i often win. Which is why to anyone that says they cant loop or cant counter being tunneled or cant escape…..i my advice is what works for me. about 3k hours in and now i can not only loop ok but i have stealth too.
All that is besides the point, my point is that playing my way works for me, it makes it fun, prevents me being tunneled and i often win.And my point, in a topic about empathy within the community, is that you are actively transferring those negatives to your teammates, decreasing their chances of having a fair shot at winning, and doing nothing to actually engage in self growth that naturally leads to better outcomes both for yourself and your teammates. Just remember this every time you ever see a survivor post about useless teammates, because TOO MUCH stealth makes you exactly that. You are being who they are complaining about. You could be instead improving your weaknesses, but instead you want whatever shortcut you can get. The irony of using that as a counter to excessive tunneling is just bafflingly shortsighted.
I wish players did play like me, maybe if they did then i wouldnt think "why risk myself to unhook a awful looper that will go down in 10sec after i have been hooked trying to save them?"The irony is that this is the first thing survivors think when they see someone crouched in a corner doing nothing. If more people thought like you, it wouldn't go like you think.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042854#Comment_4042854
If the team was scored as a team yes i would agree. And to some degree hooks are a resource… a resource i often use. But its the hook states of the other survivors i use to buy me time to do gens so i can walk out the gate and win. This way of playing has helped my chances of escaped, it has significantly boosted my escape rate.
And if a single other survivor uses your mentality, your chances of escape plummet significantly, especially if you continue in kind. I have a lot of problems with how the game rates wins and losses (especially on the survivor side) but being a leech is actively hindering your team with your portion of shared agency. You basically give up any and all rights to blame your teammates for anything if you're actively weighing them down.
As for your escapes, gates or hatch? If gates, powered by gens or hatch closing? Because the only way that would boost escape rates would be if you are very poor in chase, which is something you can improve in order to get a better win rate without mooching off of the work of your teammates. No matter how you slice it, anything more than situational stealth is your teammates carrying you more than you earning your victories, which actually says a lot about the agency distribution of the role.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042851#Comment_4042851
I dont consider my actions dishonourable. Brutally harsh and cold maybe but not dishonourable. Actions like playing stealth (i mean stealth not rat), playing selfishly and thinking of my escape above all others. These actions are part of the game as far as im concerned. When im killer i have seen some survivors like me and i dont consider them dishonourable for walking out the gate when im securing an end game kill i think "smart move".
I mean they'll end up with you tunneled less, but you're not helping your chances of winning by going that far. Hook states and even just killer attention are a shared resource between the whole survivor team, and extensive avoidance is purposely designed to be inefficient for that reason. The only real dishonor is toward your teammates, who probably don't appreciate all being on death hook 6 hooks into a match. Its basically playing for a draw from the start, and hoping you stumble into a win.
Edit: Stealth in itself is a perfectly valid strategy, but its very easy to overdo to the detriment of your team. Time and place, don't let it prevent you from stepping up when you need to, etc.
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@random1543 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042842#Comment_4042842
I'm firm in my belief that soloq comms would fix so many issues in soloq so I'm just gonna agree to disagree because I don't see us coming to agreement good lad. 🤝
I was convinced the crazy amount of information the HUD update provides would fix solo q because I was under the assumption players would at least attempt to learn additional information through applying deductive reasoning and gleaning contextual information from it. Then I remembered people don't even bother with kindred but demand it basekit.
We constantly get taught how to fish, but just demand we're given more fish instead.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042710#Comment_4042710
To be fair, killers do have a perk that's equivalent to old Distortion, and it's Lightborn.
Both are silly and the game would be better if Lightborn gets changed too.
Honestly, if Lightborn was changed to have a strict timing window and replace the blinding effect with a subtractive one instead of the associated brightness, I feel that would be a fair compromise. Make it so it'll pretty much always work if the survivor is lazy with their timing, but give a window for it to be able to be overcome with skill. Good players can adapt, bad players don't get to bank on how forgiving the blinding timing is, killers who use it for photosensitivity reasons are taken care of, everybody wins.
The issue of course will be on how strict it would be, as I feel like nobody would ever agree on that, and BHVR would most certainly monkey paw it into a value nobody is happy with.
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042843#Comment_4042843
Mainly? Understanding. You say you play Survivor, you say you've been tunneled and learned how to counter it, so it sounds like you should understand. I'm just having trouble seeing that in your responses.
I've play thousands of matches since I first started, I've got about 3300 hours overall. If that hasn't helped me improve, then what will?
Not only do I understand, its like I'm talking to my 2017 self. I took my own advice and lament these scenarios significantly less than I did in the past. Do they still suck? Sure! but they're both far less frequent and far less impactful when they do happen, because killers tend to recognize I'm not an easy target and look for someone who is to maximize their efficiency in adjusting the game's time scale. If you want understanding, argue less and discuss more.
If that hasn't helped me improve, then what will?I've given this advice multiple times, but identifying shortcomings and frustrations and working on improving at them. I'm pretty sure I remember you posted a gameplay video of a chase not too long ago (correct me if I'm wrong, can't remember the thread to verify,) which I went through in regards to going against a Wesker. You had a lot of foundational ideas that were consistent with the understanding of a 2k+ player, but not the confidence nor execution of that level of experience. And that in itself is fine, especially when I spent my first few years pretty much solely gen jockeying and over-relying on stealth. But 200 hours of direct growth is worth more than 5000 hours of stagnation, so its important to identify things like bad habits, mindsets, and muscle memory and adapt them if they get in the way.
If you want understanding, play your opponent. Be willing to do the things you hate that they do to you, even if you have to stop at the last second and just let the survivor go afterward if you conscience demands it. Watch killer main content creators, look past the myriad of opinions you disagree with and focus on their reasoning and logic in their moves. Many of them are actually quite good at explaining that type of thing if you are genuinely willing to hear them out. If you know any particularly skilled players, you can even request they coach you on aspects you struggle with. Experience is not the same as skill, or even understanding the game itself, it just facilitates those types of improvement. Its not a passive experience, and its not something you gain by forcing arguments.
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042839#Comment_4042839
So you've never been in a situation where tunneling was the right call?
Even when tunneling was the right call, I still wouldn't do it. If I lose as a result, fine. I prefer to play with honor and lose than sweat my arse off and win.
Thats neat. More power to you. But its not going to help you understand how to effectively counter it, which leads me back to what you're trying to accomplish. If you are just trying to spread good vibes, great, we could all use more of that! But if you want to reduce the impact an unfun situation has when you find yourself in it, self destructive levels of moral superiority is not going to do you any favors. In a genre like fighting games, refusing to engage in basic concepts like zoning or neutral because of moral objections means accepting you will never improve as a player, and is a mindset that is actively looked down on in almost every genre, like @Reinami has been arguing. Pretty sure TLC even wrote a song about it a few decades ago.
My point isn't to argue. I stick with these discussions because I do honestly intend to expand people's mindsets to their opponents, regardless of how any of us personally feel about them. If you don't want to learn from it, I have to reiterate, what do you hope to gain?
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@random1543 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042831#Comment_4042831
Yet they have teammates, and can abandon if in that position when they do not. They can bring anti-slug perks, but are incentivised not to because their teammates can be in positions where they can abandon before you even get to use them. My point is that you can't skew concepts like finality as you see fit, the details may vary but a check vs a checkmate is a very clear distinction that occurs before a match ending or even an individual elimination. You need to keep that scope consistent when comparing roles with different structures.a team which I cant communicate with which every other team game that exists allows for some sort of comms with the team. my point in pointing it out is that is why you cant compare dbd to other games. because the killer is the power role.
Those are not the Killer's objectives, though. They are simply ways of working towards them, which have different perspectives due to the afforementioned design differences. If a survivor has zero agency but a killer has full, does that mean the killer has won the game? Or simply put the survivor into a position where they control their agency? Thats a very important distinction when comparing a 1v4 setup.That's my point with agency, the killer can work towards there objective in different ways. Someone that is on the hook cannot work towards there objective they can only swing there arms around on hook, they don't even have the agency to communicate with there team.
Edit: my original reply was to a comment trying to compare dbd to non 1v4 games and "why is dbd not like these communities" its the agency between roles.Have you never played a team sport?I've never played one where the team cant communicate with someone else on the team and strategize with them.
I wont accept other teammates as agency is a surefire way to have your team not get any wins in a season, regardless of the reason.Cutting off the part where I say "without comms" I'm not saying I wont accept it just not without comms. "regardless of the reason" no the reason is a big issue.
That applies to everything from baseball and hockey down to teams in mobas and fps. Communication can be often extremely minimal in those sports,I don't agree with that statement at all the baseball and hockey players can communicate with each other what you think training is, even in fps if they don't have mic they have ping system.
a team which I cant communicate with which every other team game that exists allows for some sort of comms with the team. my point in pointing it out is that is why you cant compare dbd to other games. because the killer is the power role.So you mean to say you have a telepathic link with all players on the field in a baseball game? Maybe everyone is always on a party line with bluetooth headsets at a pickup baseketball game? Communication is not a 100% constant in shared agency as a concept, its even the entire point of players like quarterbacks being the "head" of the team that calls shots and coordinates with the coach. Despite what you might see in movies, your average tackle or guard doesn't exactly give his teammates orders in huddles. Some sports you can go for very long periods of time without any communication at all. Even with SWFs in discord, not everyone might have a mic or be able to talk. The game is designed to be more friendly to a lack of communication than possibly ever before in its life, yet most people don't even understand how to get additional info from the HUD update.
That's my point with agency, the killer can work towards there objective in different ways. Someone that is on the hook cannot work towards there objective they can only swing there arms around on hook, they don't even have the agency to communicate with there team.How does a killer work toward their objective when 4 survivors are standing in the exit gate, positioned so that falling out will land them outside the threshold, vs a trapper. This is exactly what I mean and about pick and choosing things to suit your narrative rather than actually considering the consequences of your implications. I've brought this up in countless topics, but checkmate scenarios for the killer accomplish literally no meaningful gameplay, but apparently they are different from ones where the survivor still has multiple mechanics (both loadout based and basekit, depending on situation) to restore a game's life well before people claim its over. You can't have both, regardless of the design issues with the abandon mechanic around the quagmire. You can't measure one thing in inches and the other in yards then go solely off the raw numbers, consistency in reasoning matters regardless of role.
Cutting off the part where I say "without comms" I'm not saying I wont accept it just not without comms. "regardless of the reason" no the reason is a big issue.I already went over the comms part separately. My point was that shared agency is something that goes hand and hand with cooperation, regardless of any other factors (including communication.) If you've ever heard the ethical dilemma about two prisoners with a squealer getting rewarded but only if they don't both squeal, they have shared agency in that scenario without the ability to communicate. I stopped where I did because you're trying to run when you don't seem to understand how to walk with the concept.
Edit: my original reply was to a comment trying to compare dbd to non 1v4 games and "why is dbd not like these communities" its the agency between roles.Yes, and thats something I generally agree with, but not with your framing or your reasoning. DBD is extremely different, and most games like it bite the dust fairly quickly, so its main points of comparison are going to be in spite of its structure more than because of it. Nuances are crucial, but If you limit all examples to only games set up exactly the same, all you have is a graveyard to work with.
I've never played one where the team cant communicate with someone else on the team and strategize with them.I've played many. Hell, RTS used to go so fast that you wouldn't even have time to type in the depth of skirmishes before voice communication became more of a thing. The most foundational aspect of shared agency is learning how to work without being able to rely on your teammates, which is why I'll never understand this focus on communication being the sole-and-absolutely-only thing holding people back.
I don't agree with that statement at all the baseball and hockey players can communicate with each other what you think training is, even in fps if they don't have mic they have ping system.Training is not the same as adaptation on the fly, or any type of mid match coordination at all. You could similarly argue you have the entire lobby to communicate, you can use other channels like Discord or party chat on consoles, your only fuel in this argument is around randos and the game not providing built in answers to your very specific complaint. My position is that the lack thereof is far less of a detriment than you seem to think, which is most likely caused by it not being an area you try to improve in. I do this specifically to try to help you with that realization, that you might be bothered by a lack of communication less if you learned how to improve in offsetting the negatives of that environment.
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042790#Comment_4042790
But being good enough to counter tunneling isn't going to make it any more fun to go against. I've been in four out of five tunneling scenarios: One, I've been tunneled and died quickly because of it. Two, I've been tunneled, but ran the Killer long enough for the teammates to finish the gens and leave out the gate as I die. Three, I've had teammates tunneled and die quickly, and we're too busy saving them in order to do the gens. Four, the tunneled teammate is able to loop the Killer long enough for the rest of us to rush the gens and escape. The only scenario I haven't been in is the one doing the tunneling. But what do the first four scenarios have in common? None of them are fun!
More generalizations. "Killers" aren't one person any more than "Survivors" are. Instead of flipping it over, why not zoom out your perspective?
Pointing this out every time is just as pointless as pointing out that anti-camp is actually anti-FACEcamp. We KNOW that all Killers are not the same, all Survivors are not the same, so I'm sorry I can't specify that in every single comment I make.
But in this case, I believe the generalization is accurate because jesterkind is the ONLY Killer player I've seen state and explain why tunneling is unhealthy for the game as a whole. Yes, they may have played Survivor as well, but they've stated that they are primarily a Killer player.
But for your comparison to work regarding things like tunneling, you would have to similarly ignore all of its nuances:
All those nuances mean little, because the tunneled Survivor still dies too quickly, leading to the quick death of the whole team. In fact, there's an active topic about that...
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/462216/killers-win-if-they-kill-1-survivor-early#latest
While that thread isn't specifically about tunneling, it is a major factor in why Killers tunnel. (Do I also need to point out that I'm aware that it isn't the ONLY reason?)
But being good enough to counter tunneling isn't going to make it any more fun to go against.Then you can't find enjoyment from improvement, nor better outcomes, nor punishing people for relying on such strategies as a crutch. I'm going to have to assume you've never had to adapt to an aspect of a game you dislike, because being able to turn frustraton into delayed gratification and enjoyment is pretty common when experiencing those types of improvements. Or you could just compound your frustration and demand the devs cater to your lack of enjoyment and make others enjoy the game even less in the process. This is why I keep trying to emphasize to you that it is empathetic advice, regardless of whether you're willing to accept it.
The only scenario I haven't been in is the one doing the tunneling. But what do the first four scenarios have in common?None of them are fun!So you've never been in a situation where tunneling was the right call? How can you be as dismissive when you haven't even worn your opponent's shoes? I do not believe that tunneling is always the necessary play to compete in the game, but I don't have the hubris to claim a stance as absolute as yours without even experiencing it.
I have been tunneled. I have been tunneled many times, by many killers. Some better than me, some not. But the biggest growth I learned in how to tunnel it came from trying it myself, from seeing how people misdirect, their routing, their pathing, how they used tools mid chase to buy distance or time, etc. If you refuse to improve, and you refuse to put yourself in your enemy's shoes, what do you hope to achieve with your complaints? It feels like you want to demand empathy while refusing to show an ounce yourself, and I'm saying that in the hopes you might change that outlook. You will only keep burning yourself out and hating the game more and more over time, even if you get your way about things.
Pointing this out every time is just as pointless as pointing out that anti-camp is actually anti-FACEcamp. We KNOW that all Killers are not the same, all Survivors are not the same, so I'm sorry I can't specify that in every single comment I make.Then why did you barge into the topic blaming killers right off the bat? The topic is supposed to be about a bipartisan concept, considering the perspective of your opponent, yet all I see are complaints that your opponents refuse to do so while refusing to be the better person. I'll stop pointing it out when you stop doing it, especially when I have not made the claims you are arguing at me.
But in this case, I believe the generalization is accurate because jesterkind is the ONLY Killer player I've seen state and explain why tunneling is unhealthy for the game as a whole. Yes, they may have played Survivor as well, but they've stated that they areprimarilya Killer player.I've discussed it multiple times, and even proposed solutions to it on many occasions. I apologize I don't lead every post with a resume of every stance I've ever had in DBD (as most people don't do this) so maybe it would be more effective to go off of what individuals say, rather than what you project onto entire role (one which I, ironically, rarely play.) Empathy helps with not making those generalizations. You can agree and disagree with people regardless of what role they main, the important thing is to address their points (whether for or against) independent of any such affiliations, and take their experiences into consideration.
All those nuances mean little, because the tunneled Survivor still dies too quickly, leading to the quick death of the whole team. In fact, there's an active topic about that...There's also countless experiences of survivors, many of which are even on sites like youtube and twitch, not only escaping being tunneled but turning it into a game losing move for the killer. The way this is worded tells me you care more about being validated than you do understanding your opponent, which makes me question why you would keep posting in a topic about the latter.
I honestly don't know what you hope to gain from this conversation.
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@random1543 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042821#Comment_4042821
Thats selectively reductionist. If the killer is always able to do something because of such a wide net, why wouldn't it also apply to survivors crawling on the ground?That induvial survivor cannot do anything but crawl on the ground, yes they need to rely on the team that's why I mention lack of comms (which I think would resolve so many problems in solo q)
The killers can never be put into a situation where they cannot use m1 or no situation where the killer cannot chase the survivor (not catch, physically chase). that's what I mean by the killer is never in a situation where they can do nothing.you can't call a downed survivor to a checkmate until all other potential options (other teammates, perks that CAN do something in that situation, hatch, etc)I wont accept other teammates as agency until a comm wheel is added to the game, until then I cant communicate with them like SWF teams can. I cant communicate perks that may help (live forever, shoulder the burden) and in regards to hatch, 4 min slugging is mostly happening to avoid hatch plays.
That induvial survivor cannot do anything but crawl on the ground, yes they need to rely on the team that's why I mention lack of comms (which I think would resolve so many problems in solo q)Yet they have teammates, and can abandon if in that position when they do not. They can bring anti-slug perks, but are incentivised not to because their teammates can be in positions where they can abandon before you even get to use them. My point is that you can't skew concepts like finality as you see fit, the details may vary but a check vs a checkmate is a very clear distinction that occurs before a match ending or even an individual elimination. You need to keep that scope consistent when comparing roles with different structures.
The killers can never be put into a situation where they cannot use m1 or no situation where the killer cannot chase the survivor (not catch, physically chase). that's what I mean by the killer is never in a situation where they can do nothing.Those are not the Killer's objectives, though. They are simply ways of working towards them, which have different perspectives due to the afforementioned design differences. If a survivor has zero agency but a killer has full, does that mean the killer has won the game? Or does it simply put the survivor into a position where the killer controls their agency? Thats a very important distinction when comparing a 1v4 setup.
To restructure your statement, a killer absolutely can be put into a situation where they cannot down and pick up any survivor. A survivor can get downed and have hatch spawn directly under them while the killer wipes their blade, but a killer cannot have the exit gates randomly get blocked because a survivor got hit in the exit. Thats why I emphasize the use of check vs checkmate scenarios when discussing topics like this, it helps to remove the personal biases that come with trying to separate the roles by their differences instead of focusing on their commonalities.
I wont accept other teammates as agency until a comm wheel is added to the game, until then I cant communicate with them like SWF teams can. I cant communicate perks that may help (live forever, shoulder the burden) and in regards to hatch, 4 min slugging is mostly happening to avoid hatch plays.Have you never played a team sport?
I wont accept other teammates as agencyis a surefire way to have your team not get any wins in a season, regardless of the reason. Hell its a pretty good way to get benched. If you refuse to play a team based role within a, well, team based role, you would probably get more enjoyment from sticking to killer. The foundation of shared agency is about maximizing your own personal chances, minimizing how much your teammates bring you down, and maximizing any opportunities they provide you. That applies to everything from baseball and hockey down to teams in mobas and fps. Communication can be often extremely minimal in those sports, and casually in stuff like pickup games even coordination might be non-existent. Thats why you learn to improve on the individual level, and specifically how to adapt to the unknowns around you. -
@random1543 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042797#Comment_4042797
All them games you described do not have a power dynamic in the roles like dbd has.
The killer role in dbd there is never a situation where you literally cannot do anything, not talking about "oh I cant catch these survivors" I mean things like hooked survivors cannot do anything but wave there arms outside of perks, slugging survivors cannot do anything expect crawl around on the ground outside of perks.
the killer can never be put in a spot where they literally cannot do anything so comparing it to games like you mentioned make no sense as both sides can do what you describe for other games.
oh you got raided offline in rust. you can raid someone as well.
someone backstabbed you in Arc. you can backstab someone as well.
Survivors cannot slug the killer for 4 mins (nor should they be able too)
all them games also have comms which is lacking in dbd.The killer role in dbd there is never a situation where you literally cannot do anything, not talking about "oh I cant catch these survivors" I mean things like hooked survivors cannot do anything but wave there arms outside of perks, slugging survivors cannot do anything expect crawl around on the ground outside of perks.Thats selectively reductionist. If the killer is always able to do something because of such a wide net, why wouldn't it also apply to survivors crawling on the ground? They have arguably more potential to reset and regroup than, say, a trapper standing in the exit gates while the survivors refuse to leave. You can't speak in absolutes like that when actual checkmate scenarios exist, and similarly you can't call a downed survivor to a checkmate until all other potential options (other teammates, perks that CAN do something in that situation, hatch, etc) have been expended. You have to accept both or neither as agency, as you need some degree of consistency in comparing two differently structured roles.
Thats why people shouldn't selectively change the definition of concepts like agency to suit their arguments. The most consistent definition I have for how the game is structured is based off of the ability to contribute toward core objectives, which to me seems pretty reasonable. Equally addresses checks and checkmates on each side, keeps considerations between concepts like "helplessness" pretty uniform. Survivor in particular is interesting because its an elimination based role, while simultaneously requiring shared agency due to its team format, which is why something as simple as "they can always press buttons to move at normal speed" would look differently between the two sides. Likewise, the abandon feature's generosity doesn't require checkmate scenarios, completely removing most of the incentive to bring the very perks that turn survivor check scenarios back into active matches. Its a lot more of a mess than simplified "you can always swat them out" nonsense, so it feels fitting to the topic.
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/462288/a-general-lack-of-sympathy-from-ignorance
the problem i have is with survivor problem people can run ds,exponental/unbreakable/conviction and kindred i guess ti counter this but don't want to for some reason or another and killers compensate for the gutting of gen regression by using s tiers it doesn't help that killers in general get nerfed at launch including springtrap i think the exception is houndmaster
This is why empathy for your opponent matters, kneejerk kneecappings always lead to doubling down on the next thing, which is often even worse.
@cogsturning said:
In regards to the forum, one thing that's really not constructive is when people come here to lament, clearly bothered by some recent events, only to have someone tell them that said role is easy and they themsleves do just fine at it with zero effort. Bonus points if they drop their inflated stats. There's nothing worse than being unhappy and having someone tell you there's no problem. Give advice, give encouragement. Don't just say "KiLlEr/SuRvIvOr iS eZ mOdE."
In-game is a little trickier. I'm always a big advocate for empathy and compassion. The problem is, you don't know how your opponenet is feeling at any given time, and you don't know what we'll make it worse or better. Everyone is in a different headspace at any given moment, and everyone takes the game different levels of serious. Some people are prone to anger and frustration and others aren't. Some care more about the outcome, others, the journey. Almost everyone I know plays both roles, but how they feel about and react to those roles is different. I'm much more prone to anger as killer, and any outside effort to quell that anger will likely amplify it. Even a well-meaning gg will make it worse. If I knew what would make my opponents feel better about losses every time—pallet farming, goofing around, two-hooking, whatever—I would do it. But I don't know.
I only wish people responded better to the advice and encouragement they get, instead of seeking validation in their misery and finding reasons to dislike core aspects of the game. This often unfortunately leads to lumping good advice with being unsportsmanlike due to getting in one's own way, so to speak.
That said, well put, and that self reflectiont is a particularly important thing to understand about oneself: Being quick to anger or frustration for instance is perfectly fine to see in ourselves, and identifying those types of impulse reactions is the most important step to improving about how they affect your mindset. Not being willing to admit when one is contributing to a problem actively prevents them from being able to be part of a solution, and that goes double for internalization.
We all play differently, with different levels of intensity, and even conflicting objectives. We don't know what our opponent is expecting, so the default out of the gate action for many is to maximize the start of the game under the assumption that if their opponent does, it would generally be too late to recover. You can recognize those types of mindsets without even agreeing with them, so long as you keep your view of the game overall less focused on your personal experiences invalidating those of others.
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042772#Comment_4042772
All I have said is that tunneling is not necessary to win, and that tunneling is too strong in its current state. And I'll also say that telling Survivors to "get gud so you don't get tunneled" is also lacking empathy. Killers seem to think tunneling is fine because it's "the most efficient/optimal way to play." But let's flip the card over. Imagine that Survivors can cooperate on one generator, and the number of gens that pop would be equivalent to the number of Survivors on that one gen. Example: three Survivors on that one gen = three gens pop. That would be incredibly busted, wouldn't it? And yet for Survivors, that would be the most efficient way to play. Survivors would tell Killers, "Just get gud so they can't work on the same gen." Would Killers be okay with that? What chance would the Killer have of winning at that point? That's exactly the same kind of effect that tunneling has on Survivors. So how anyone can be okay with that is beyond me.
All I have said is that tunneling is not necessary to win, and that tunneling is too strong in its current state.I just reposted the exact comment you barged into the topic with, immediately shifting blame toward killer players without displaying the empathy for your opponent the topic was centered around. Empathy doesn't mean giving your opponent things for free, it means understanding why they play the way they do. Making a demonization assumption right off the bat isn't the best way to achieve that.
Just so we have a baseline, this is the Webster's exact primary definiton of empathy:
"the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another"
With its connection to sympathy, with its primary defintion from the same source:
"a feeling or expression of sincere concern for someone who is experiencing something difficult or painful"
To which I ask: Which term and/or definition does introducing any element of specifically us vs them rhetoric serve?
And I'll also say that telling Survivors to "get gud so you don't get tunneled" is also lacking empathy.It actually is empathetic, because its exactly how I dealt with it over the years, and regularly see killer players discuss identifying weak links when they play. I just put two and two together and realized that sometimes the harshest truth can be the most productive when appropriately placed. You could argue it's not as sympathetic unless worded in a particularly edgeless fashion, but its certain empathetic. They want you to take the advice so that you will improve your enjoyment of the game through improvement and minimizing the scenario you dislike.
Killers seem to think tunneling is fine because it's "the most efficient/optimal way to play." But let's flip the card over.More generalizations. "Killers" aren't one person any more than "Survivors" are. Instead of flipping it over, why not zoom out your perspective?
Imagine that Survivors can cooperate on one generator, and the number of gens that pop would be equivalent to the number of Survivors on that one gen. Example: three Survivors on that one gen = three gens pop. That would be incredibly busted, wouldn't it?Yes, and this is known as a strawman. Its an extreme version of an argument that has not been made, designed specifically to attack for its silliness. You are arguing at someone about outlandish expectations who is instead trying to help you find common ground.
And yet for Survivors, that would be the most efficient way to play.If the survivors were able to completely destroy the intended design of the game, yes, that would be both busted and the most efficient way to play. If the implication here is that I think LCD strats like tunneling are how the game should ideally be played, that would be one of the dangers of making these types of generalizations. I want LCD strats replaced with healthy alternatives, but I also recognize that there are many situations where they are the correct play. Your lack of understanding the opposing perspective makes you seem to think any time someone defends those tactics as being either possible or relative to that state in the game, they must be advocating for something as ridiculous as your strawman's impact would be on the game's foundation. That makes you look even more unreasonable to anyone who doesn't already agree with you.
Survivors would tell Killers, "Just get gud so they can't work on the same gen." Would Killers be okay with that? What chance would the Killer have of winning at that point?That is both poisoning the well and misrepresenting an argument. In the scenario you gave, it would be pretty difficult to not see how being able to skip gens as a resource while simultaneously consolidating 3/5ths of the objective in such a way would destry multiple core components of the game. But for your comparison to work regarding things like tunneling, you would have to similarly ignore all of its nuances: Time per hook stage, time per rechase/down/hook/etc for 3 hook states (have to include the original chase, of course) and decide that the other survivors could accomplish nothing with that amount of time. When you are tunneled, you have one role: Waste as much of the killer's time as possible, to give your teammates a chance of punishing that decision. When you are not the one tunneled, your role changes to accomplishing as much of your objective as possible to utilize that time as efficiently as you can. That is not even remotely the same as 3/5ths of the objective being done with almost the entire map still having further gens to do. Even if you were under the assumption of that one gen popping three other gens instead of just counting as 3 gen pops, that still defeats the potential of concepts like map pressure, and FURTHER LEADS KILLERS TO FOCUS ON STRICTLY THE MOST EFFICIENT PLAY POSSIBLE DUE TO TIME'S VALUE TO THESE ELEMENTS IN THE CORE GAME LOOP. In other words, even if your comparison, the result is still the same: Don't assume your enemy is just out to get you just because they aren't actively self sabotaging in your face.
That's exactly the same kind of effect that tunneling has on Survivors. So how anyone can be okay with that is beyond me.The fact you think thats exactly the same is why it remains beyond you. Thats the danger of things like conflating arguments and embracing us vs them mentalities.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042771#Comment_4042771
But that is precisely MY point. There is no other online game i have ever played where players have this attitude at a large scale. Like sure, you play a fighting game, sometimes you run into someone who gets mad because "throws are cheap" or something. But its not a large amount of players, they are usually a small minority and get laughed at by the community. Like for example players like Low tier God if you know him in Street Fighter. He is like this, and ragequits all the time and he's just a person the community makes fun of.
But in DBD its different, that majority of this community IS like this and you are part of the minority if you are just playing to win. There is no other community that is like this one and that is the part that perplexes me.
And MY point is that by using LTG as a comparison for the people you're demonizing, you're not showing a desire to understand why they might feel differently than you do. I know there are plenty of spoiled players in this community, and its certainly not a role restricted mindset. I'm saying that there are many degrees of reasonability between neutral and that far of an extreme, which is kinda the point of the topic. Don't focus on the worst to reinforce your strawman, work with people who are as reasonable as you are. If you find they don't exist, re-evaluate if you are that strawman to your opponents.