ElizaSteph
ElizaSteph
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@RakimSockem said:
When I play survivor, I respect the hell out of a good Huntress. Huntress gameplay feels the most fair and when they do well, it's because of nothing but skill (typically).
On the contrary, the second I see a Trickster or a Doc, I'm like "ugh, why?" We got no skill brain dead knife thrower and I can't find people so let me use my automatic tracking device to compensate and I just find them both so low skill ceiling that I don't feel they deserve their wins XD
Can anyone relate?
I like huntresses but I tend to get really dodgy hits a lot, like around corners, through windows where I can’t even see them because they threw it from a wall behind the window, over boxes where my head is not sticking out etc. I don’t know if it’s just the hit boxes or connection but so many huntresses get some nasty shots, way more questionable hits than other killers imo. I can’t think of the last time a billy or plague hit me and I was like “wow that shouldn’t have counted,” but at least once per huntress game I have a “wow, uh huh ok” moment. I def think huntress takes a lot of skill and when I see a good one that hits some sick shots I’m really impressed, but I cannot stand those hatchets hitting me when my whole body is out of sight, or when I go left and they throw right and somehow I’m still injuried.
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2740730#Comment_2740730
Don't worry, it didn't come off as whining to me. Was just originally confused why there was a second thread. Hope I helped answer your questions. And yes, she makes chase dynamic drastically different from other killers. It becomes very heavily mind-game oriented. Who can make the better read? Who can throw off the other person's reads? Who can adapt better? So on and so forth. Which boils it down to pure skill. Nurse missing a blink attack is quite punishing basekit (aka, not using double recharge). Feel free to ask if you have any other questions.
Also, another reason people have a weird perspective of Nurse is because she does what a killer should be able to do. You take most regular killers to strong tile setups and you can essentially guarantee a won chase 9/10 times. (By won, I don't mean escaping, I mean buying enough time to be worth it, which is ~30 seconds for downing a healthy person). This ends up with regular M1s particularly just auto-losing at very strong tile setups because they are just straight up not capable of dealing with it, when playing at high enough level where people will take advantage of that to the extreme. (Not that it's wrong for the survivors to do that, this is more just a map/tile weighting issue). In other words, it's not that Nurse is punished "too little", but that other killers are comparatively punished far too hard. Does that make sense?
Also hope the earlier mention of statistics is sort of reassuring, in that Nurse still ends up evenly matched regardless assuming equal levels of skill.
This makes a lot more sense when you say it like that, I appreciate all your advice and tips, thanks a lot! :)
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@SuzuKR said:
Nurse basekit crosses a map roughly in the same speed a regular 115% (4.6m/s) killer does by walking. Her "mobility" is pretty much entirely in regards to in an actual chase. It's not like Blight's where it's generic map-crossing mobility at basekit. Obviously, range add-ons would change this.
Oh yeah I’m sorry, I figured. I was referring to chase because of her ability to bypass walls, windows, and pallets gives her a lot more distance in a chase as opposed to other killers like hillbilly and blight that still have obstacles. I get that she’s a really mindgame based killer and that mindgaming goes both ways, I just also think that the devs added vaults and pallets because they knew survivors couldn’t rely solely on mind games as eventually killer ability, increased based speed, and or distance closing capability would outmatch them at some point without obstacles like that.
That’s how I understood the game and was why I figured we had those things in the first place. But it’s fair to say maybe with nurse I should try and think differently. It’s just kind of tough when it seems like the devs made killers have to follow certain rules (like having to either break or go around pallets, and not being able to travel through solid objects) all while giving survivors specific tools to use in order to make it more balanced. Then they designed a killer that goes against that and made it all about mind games alone. If mind games weren’t enough counter for the devs to be considered fair, it’s difficult to understand why it’s fair for that to be the result of going against a nurse yk? Because once she’s skilled enough, recovering from a miss isn’t very hard as you don’t make much distance from a whiff or miss, and you can’t get distance from her breaking a pallet because she doesn’t have to.
I didn’t mean for this thread to be Survivor main whine or anything and I hope it didn’t seem like that, I just figured that with a killer so many people have a problem with countering there would be a nerf at some point, but after reading around I guess that would call for a rework which would be really lame and a lot of work.
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@Phasmamain said:
It’s either because her killrate is too low for the devs or they are not bothered to do another full on rework since that’s the only way to effectively nerf her
I think you’re right, that makes a lot of sense :3. I think a plain nerf would just make her not strong at all maybe? And a rework be be a lot perhaps. Idk. But thanks for answering <3
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@SuzuKR said:
So. You saw a thread, and decided to make an entirely new thread, for the exact same topic. Why?
I don’t think they made the same points as I did in their opening discussion and I wanted to make it easy for everyone to see the specific reasons why I was curious so they could respond more clearly and address my question better. Didn’t mean to be rude or anything, just wanted to have a better understanding.
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@Labrac said:
She has been nerfed already. The Nurse we have now isn't as strong as the one that we had before 2019.
My bad, I meant a more recent one. The changes they already made did help, but even with the way she currently is, a great nurse is still very very hard to counter. I don’t think killers should just be hella easy to go against, but when the game gives you devices made for countering killers that one killer can blatantly ignore with no problem it’s really challenging. Everyone says you just have to play differently against her, but at this point a great nurse knows this and will bring perks that counter a different play style.
If you want to play stealthy bc pallets and windows don’t really help in chase, many nurses just use perks that give location information anyway. That’s why her line of sight counter is also iffy at best on a good nurse. Distance means nothing to her in a chase. A common play is to double back and try to move unpredictably, but her blink speed is faster than a survivor and if/when she sees you on her first blink, you don’t have much time between that and the second one to get much distance. Her being able to lunge makes this harder. Ive played against good and okay ones and using strats recommended by better players helped me get better, but even then great nurses are a dif story. I’ve seen some of the best players from twitch to YouTube easily lose a game. Not because of lack of skill but because she’s just really hard to counter if she’s good at blinks. It’s all up to the survivor to be able to guess where she’ll go or think you’ll go, and a killer who’s only strong counter is guessing can be broken.
but that’s just my opinion, and I don’t have any suggestions for a nerf. Just wanted to know if her player number was the reason she hasn’t had another impactful nerf in a while or if they think she won’t be good anymore with any.
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@Laluzi said:
When I do that, it's because I'm trying to get the triangle head daily challenge. Sometimes you get survivors that really do not want to be tormented and it makes getting his daily a nightmare, so you can waste time forcing the issue for them.
Doing it legitimately isn't the best strat, since it wastes tons of time hooking each survivor, and you can't really camp cages the way you would hooks if hard tunneling is your angle. It's better to torment them, hook them, and then tunnel and cage/kill if that's your angle.
Yeah I can understand that. It’s definitely a good strategy and I see how it’s really helpful :3 it just sucks a bit when you can’t use the only strong line of defense against tunnelling because of his ability. But it doesn’t happen often and a lot of pyramid head players don’t play like that unless they gotta so it’s no big deal, ggs to the lad. I can just see it being abused if more and more players decided to play him with that stray just so they could hard tunnel.
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@gendoss said:
It could have also been for the achievement to cage 30 survivors or something like that.
Yeah, I’m not really mad bc that was a smart play to be fair, but it kind of blows he can by pass ds and borrowed and have no counters to tunnelling. Usually the whole play is to avoid his trails as much as possible so it’s harder to tunnel, but I don’t really see a way to get passed this when he can force you to run through it. The only real counter to avoiding this is just get gud. Just sucky when you get those killers who are set hard tunnelling. But it is what it is.
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@BrokenSouI said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2737053#Comment_2737053
If chases are the fun part of the game. Why do people get so angry about "tunneling" ? 🤷 You're literally engaging in the fun part of the game. Which is being chased.
I’m not even saying the person being tunnelled isn’t having fun, because they might be. But what about everyone else who doesn’t get to play bc the killer only is targeting that individual 🤷♂️? you think holding one button to do gens and leave is fun for three people?
It can be boring for everyone. Someone being hit immediately off hook isn’t going to have fun, and neither are three people sitting around while one person gets max escape points.
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@chargernick85 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/303796/killers-being-accused-of-ruining-the-fun
I agree for most part but would like to add being good is one thing...being good and trying to do everything in your power to make a killer miserable is another. The game is favored to survivors (maps, spawns, tiles connection, meta same for years, now boons) it takes teammates being stupid to lose these days so win the game and leave. No need for macro, dancing, notification spamming because you want the killer to see you leave, notification spamming when you are sole survivor jumping in hatch, etc. Both sides are toxic ######### but to say survivor toxic is just being good is shortsighted....maybe play killer some is my recommendation.
Now I will agree killer has a bit more control but be a little more clear about what is hated. A killer who slugs to chase another is not the same as leaving you on the ground for 4 minutes (unless he couldn't find you after but that's on you), Face camping is toxic....Proxy camping is legit, tunneling? Tunneling honestly means you need to get better (killer and survivor) a good survivor wants to be tunneled.
No no survs can def be toxic of course, I just meant like they just can’t take out a big aspect of the game for the killer like they can do and being toxic in that way. I can’t prevent the killer from playing a big part of the game. Not being able to have fun as a killer because you’re losing and getting tea bagged and clicked at definitely sucks but is a lot different than not having fun as a survivor because you literally don’t get to play the fundamental part of the game.
There’s definitely times where strategies that suck for survs are needed to win or is what the killer has to do to get a kill. And even when I have to be the one to die I get it. Proxying is sometimes a great idea, slugging is sometimes a given, but it’s when they go out of their way to stop you from playing it becomes an issue. But being tunnelled, both before and even rightly off the hook, can suck. Not even for the tunnelled person, especially if they’re good, because that just means three other people don’t really get to play yk?
Survs can def be really toxic and mean, they just can’t really take the potential out of the game the same way.
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@Gwinty said:
Uff, this will be some work. First of all: "toxic gameplay". You consider the Killer doing their objective toxic but when the survivor does they are just "good at the game". This is a huge leap and you also ignore tbaging, flashlight clicking (on macro!) or bodyblocking with Cycle of Healing in groups and many other things.
Thing is: You just labeled one type of gameplay as "toxic" on an arbitrary base.
Some people consider Franklin's Demise or Hex: No one escapes Death as toxic perks. Are they?
Later on you even argue: "Even if the killer is losing and doesn’t have any kills because survivors are playing super well, they still get to chase ...". Well, if a Killer is tunneling you, you get to play the chase as well. If you are on the hook your team can still come and rescue you it is quit possible. Camping is a way of provoking the survivors to come to you, thus easing the risk of going for the wrong generator or getting stealthed by a survivor when you finally get there. Also a reason why BBQ is a good perk btw it allows Killer to find you.
Now you talk about somebody taking away someone else fun, let me give you an example: Imagine I am Ghostface and we are playing Haddonfield. I play against a 4 people SWF and one is constantly on the watch out, calling his teammate my position and revealing me, while using Balance landing. Where do I get to use my power? Right, I do not. I play M1 knife man the same way you play M1 generator man.
Now "fun" is subjective thus this is not an objective answere of course. This is my fun getting taken away.
Some Killers also have a very slug heavy gameplay: When you play Oni and you want to get hooks and kills, you have to snowball. Thus you slug people. Sometimes resulting in 4 slugs when survivors play poorly. Note also that mass slugging in this way is a misplay on the survivors side for the most part...do I take their fun away or do I just capitalize on their mistakes and follow my objective and playstyle as Oni?
Now, I do not understand Killers facecamping or hardcore tunneling a survivor just like that. For me this happens when people take the same character 4 times (I will not watch my way), when I have no information about survivors (I have to chase somebody to apply pressure) and I mostly only camp when the gates are powered and I have a person on the hook. Two gates far appart? How shall I defend that as Ghostface, better let them come for me.
tbaging, flashlight clicking (on macro!) or bodyblocking, healing in groups, don’t stop killers from playing. They’re rude and toxic too, but they do not halt the game or prevent the killer from trying. I said toxic game play because face camping and only going after one person is generally toxic. In situations where there’s no more gens and no hooks and stuff like that it’s definitely fair, but face camping at 5 gens or hard tunnelling someone out the game as early as possible is toxic. Sorry I wasn’t clear. I don’t think many high level survivors see a killer camp/tunnelling when the game is almost over as they toxic. Yes a killers objective is to kill, but at the same time aren’t they supposed to try and kill as many people as possible? They’re also supposed to prevent gens from being finished, deal as much damage as possible, etc. If they can’t and camping/tunnelling is the only way to secure one, how is that more fun than going after others and chasing them?
As for the person who is being tunnelled, if they’re not great that’s what, maybe 20 seconds or a game play? What about everyone else? Survivors cannot stop killers from chasing them. It’s simple like that. They can be better than them and not let them win, but they literally cannot prevent a chase. Whether or not it’s fun for the killer is if they care more about winning than just trying. You’re saying camping is supposed to provoke others to come, but that’s being stupid in a survivor’s part. It’s still not fun to just trade, or end up with two people down. What if there’s noed, an insta down killer, one of several insta down perks, etc. You’re saying that camping encourages saves but even if it does then what? That person who trades doesn’t get a chase, they just get to sit on hook for the next guy and then they get camped.
Your power scenario to counter my point was kind of a stretch, but even if you’re playing against a good team who happens to be able to prevent you from using your power (even though many killers don’t have to deal with that like ghost face) you still get to go after them. You don’t have to sit and hold a button and leave or sit on a hook. You.still.get.to.chase.
i am not saying none of this gameplay is ever fair, and it’s not even toxic sometimes, but at the end of the day the killer can remove a big aspect of the game that survivors cannot. Not being able to have fun as a killer because you’re having losing is a lot different than not having fun as a survivor because you literally don’t get to play most of the game.
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@Elfinlocks said:
Good survivors can definitely be boring. Hold w the moment a heartbeat comes up, urban evasion or shadow step away, pre drop every pallet if they notice you’re a killer who has trouble with that, hide in lockers for twenty minutes once two people get killed … it’s crazy to me that killers have a set of ‘rules’ they’re meant to abide for a “fun” match, yet survivors never are expected to slow down a fast match for the killer’s fun.
It’s not a set a rules, I’m just saying that you guys can literally take the fundamental fun part of the game away if you felt like it. Survivors can’t stop you from chasing them, they can only be good enough to stop you from winning, but killers can deprive the lobby of the game experience if they wanted to. If I drop every pallet and loop you until the sun comes out, you still got to chase me right?
The chase is the whole fun part of the game. They can definitely make the chases less fun by being skilled, but the overall experience of losing a chase is not as boring as not having one at all.
Again I’m not saying killers can’t camp or tunnel and it’s never the right move, I’m just saying that when they do they can take the fun out of the game in a way we can’t do. And I don’t see how that’s more fun than trying and losing. That’s just my opinion.
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@F4QU said:
Look at this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TJSvaDTrWA this is how survivors can make the game unfun for the killer. At the moment, playing at mid-high, high mmr is just like that. so, you, as a killer, what do you do ? Right now, the mmr system is designed for new players, and it is working very well, but as you keep getting better at the game, especially as a killer, all of the games look like this, just 4 swf, abusing the map designs, as well as the game mechanics. What do you do in this scenario ? slug, tunnel and camp, this is the only way for you, as a killer to actually win and not get bullied by the swf. It's NOT survivors fault for getting this game here, it's DEVELOPERS fault for making the game a contest of bullying the killer.
With that being said, the devs must find a way to balance the game AT HIGHer mmr, it is (kinda) balanced in low mmr, the new players having quite of a good experience, but as soon as you get better, and your mmr is getting higher, the games start being unbalanced and unfun (for both sides if the killer starts camping)
I get what you mean, and I definitely think that survivors can make the game more challenging and less fun by being coordinated and good in teams, but none of them could actually stop him from being able to play in the game and force him to do something like hold down a button for 80 seconds and leave, or stare back at each other one a hook the entire time you know? He still got to actually try and have a chase, use his power, etc, which is the core gameplay of the game.
I understand that sometimes that’s all killers can do to WIN, there’s a lot of scenarios where that’s all they can do because of how survivors play and their skill/coordination etc. But my point is that killers can play in a way to win that deprives the other side of a the whole game experience.
If one person is being camped or tunnelled, that’s three other people that don’t get to experience the fundamental aspect of the game and the most fun part. They get stuck on gens. That person on the hook? Doesn’t even get to do a gen and has to sit there. If everyone is slugged and there’s no perk for it, that’s everyone sitting on the ground doing nothing. The most fun part for killer isn’t just hooking people is it? It’s chasing them down to try and get the hooks, or coming up with mind games and trying to out play. Survivors cannot take that away. But killers can take that from survivors.
Again this isn’t some mad ramble about how it’s unbalanced and ######### or anything, I just wished killers understood that they can take a lot more out of the game if they feel like it
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@Marigoria said:
Killers have more power over the "fun" of survivors than they realize.
Sure, a survivor can be annoying, teabag and click their flashlight, but survivors don't have the power to stop killers from playing, killers can still chase them, hit them and down them. A survivor who is being facecamped, is basically doing nothing, same goes for when the killer decides to slug a survivor for 4 minutes for them to bleedout instead of hooking.
Yeah! That’s my point. A survivor can definitely be annoying and toxic, but they can’t stop the killer from actually playing. Killers can literally take the biggest part of the game out of the game for survivors. And this is usually because they’re losing.
I just want to understand how winning and doing boring things that require no real effort or challenge is better than losing and actually playing. I’ll gladly have a chase where I gave my all and still die than sit on gens and escape.
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@dugman said:
As mentioned in the Developer Update, even assuming your MMR is totally accurate you still get mismatches because of a couple of other factors
- If you’re an outlier MMR (which at 2000 hours you could be in the high tail) then the system will have trouble reliably finding enough available players in your rough MMR bracket. At which point it will be putting you into the next available slot regardless of MMRs just so you can get into a game. This timing out to a first available lobby probably happens most with really high and really low MMRs while players around the median ratings would tend to get close matchups more reliably.
- Also if someone leaves a lobby then the system quickly fills in the gap with the next available player since it doesn’t want four people waiting a long time for a new match.
- And finally, getting back to actuall MMR, they mentioned in the update that they appeared to have the starting ratings for brand new players a bit too high. They started them a bit below average, but players who are literally brand new still get stomped by “below average” opponents so they said they’re lowering that starting rating.
So hopefully they’ll be able to tweak the time the system waits before putting someone in a next available match to make the wait not be TOO long but still produce decent matchups. I suspect though that ultimately players with really high ratings and/or who play at off hours will simply not have enough players in the pool to reliably get close match ups.
Thanks for the info! <3 I appreciate it!!
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A Quick Escape
Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do
Once per trial, if you’re dead on hook and in a chase, you can trip another survivor by running into them if they have not been hooked yet in order to down them for a few seconds to deter the killer from tunneling.
A difficult skill check could be added to make harder, ( would have to use A like when dead harding) while sprinting
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Maybe add a difficult skill check like DS but use a (like for dead hard) idk just a concept