Dathro
Dathro
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- Dathro
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I'm just jealous he's getting a rework. Clown boi needs one bad.
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nerfing OP things is rly easy, because you know exactly the problem.
Buffing things is difficult, because you dont know exactly the problem.
I see zero reason supporting that position. It might be just as easy to see why an OP thing is OP, as it is to see why a weak thing is weak.
I wasn't even talking about how strong your suggestion was, I was talking about using already existing in-game resources as opposed to suggesting devs hand-craft new assets.
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Killers get nerfed constantly, and survivors just kinda.. slowly become the gods they are...
This just isn't true at all. Go look at the entire game's history of patch notes and say that. Survs started super overpowered, like actually one of the silliest balances you can imagine in an asymmetrical game, and gradually over the past... I'd say 1 year, they've been nerfed quite a bit more than Killers.
If you think Survs started out weaker and have gradually become as strong as they are now, you probably weren't playing since launch.
The Heal nerf in particular was really big.
We have seen a Killer or two ascend from being a trash Killer to in a much better place. I would argue this happened with Spirit, Hag, and to a much lesser extent, Trapper & Wraith (even Ghostface compared to his PTB). With the exception of Freddy, we have never seen a truly great Killer be nerfed into oblivion (most of them started there).
Yes Pig, Legion, Doctor, Clown have been nerfed for no good reason. But the truth is they weren't exactly very good Killers to start with, these changes didn't destroy them, just made them even slightly less relevant.
Broadly speaking, I don't want to have a discussion with anyone who does not first agree that balance has improved since launch. Those people just don't grasp the facts. It's not worth talking to them.
But to answer your question, I think it's less about bias and more about a lack of understanding their own game. Consider that the devs are actually pretty casual. You can watch them stream, you know. They do things that demonstrate they lack critical knowledge of how to play the game.
Now ask yourself, how does the game balance look at 1) the lowest level of play, 2) the middle level of play, and 3) the high level of play?
1) Killer favored 2) highly unpredictable and 3) Surv favored, in that order.
That's the answer to your question. Where they're standing, Killers look rather strong. They don't know what it's like at high levels. They hear about it, but they don't know first-hand. They don't know the specific reasons.
It's also that they have no interest in balancing around high level play. They know where their bread is buttered. If you want to give them no benefit of the doubt, there's a vested interest in being Surv-biased since there's a 4:1 ratio in any game. If there will be a bias for selfish reasons, it'd be due to that.
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The "Special Trap" is silly.
But this trap will automatically hook 1 survivor in the basement, if a survivor got trapped.
Like... what? What exactly is the in-game mechanism by which a person would be trapped, and sent to the basement Hook? Are they lifted by a claw on a conveyor belt like one of those arcade games? Just randomly teleport there? Makes no sense at all.
Changes like these will never be put into the game. At least suggest mechanics which already exist so we're not talking about devs hand-crafting something. It's not like this is the most proactive dev team, they will take shortcuts when they can.
How about let him walk through his own traps? How about give him more traps, increase his baseline number to hold, and place more of them around the map? How about slow the disarm animation and make traps harder to see?
The easy thing about Trapper is he's fairly similar to another Killer who is in a great spot: Hag. If all the above changes go through, it closes the gap a whole lot and he'll still probably not be great, but we can at least imagine Trapper should be decent.
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He's a pretty average strength Killer. Which is to say... not very good. Most Killers are not very good, and this applies to Ghostface.
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Croquedead's (Godly Hag main) July 2019 tier list:
"The Clown is definitely the worst Killer in the game. There's no doubt about it. He's hands down the worst f*cking Killer ever."
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@NuclearBurrito said:
Like. Even if he moved at survivor speed for a full second after throwing his tonic. His average speed over the next 2 seconds:
4+4.6 = 8.6
compared to the average speed for the slowed survior
3.4*2 = 6.8
8.6-6.8 = 1.8 meters gained on the survivor
Compared to without his power
4.6*2 = 9.2
4*2 = 8
9.2-8 = 1.2 meters gained on the survivor
1.8-1.2 = 0.6 extra meters gained by using his power.
And remember, that's assuming the survivor stays in the gas for the absolute minimum amount of time possible. Every additional second is an extra 0.6 meters gained on the survivor (for a total of 1.2 M/S gained).
Actually. Just for fun lets see how long he would need to slow a survivor if his power put him at a dead stop for 1 second.
Using the power initially gives the survivor 3.4 meters of distance. Each additional second is 1.2 meters gained on the survivor so starting at 4 seconds of slow (3*1.2 = 3.6) you start to gain distance on the survivor, meaning if you can keep the survivor in the gas for 2 seconds (since it lingers for the remaining 2 seconds) then you will gain distance on the Survivor regardless of how big the slowdown on the power happens to be.
That a good enough mathematical counter argument for you?
I think your argument supports my point. First I have to say I don't know that Clown is slowed for exactly 1 second, or that he moves at exactly 4m/s for it. Those are heuristic figures for sake of argument. I think it's pretty close. I would love to do such an experiment but setting up SWF and recording software would be a pain.
0.6 meters gained to me is basically nothing if you compare it to the gain of any other Power. It's like when people say "Thanatophobia does nothing". It's not literally nothing, but practically the same as nothing since it's very rarely impactful enough to change the outcome of a given event.
Lastly I would point out that standing in the gas for a full second is like running through the entire cloud. With good prediction you can force such a thing maybe a few times in a match if you're lucky, usually on really enclosed maps, but usually the Surv only runs through about half the cloud, inside for maybe 1/2 second.
Getting them to stand it in for 2 seconds - you're talking strictly about unsafe pallet standoffs, forcing them to stay in it, which I mentioned in OP that bottles help here, however all Killers can generally get hits in these situations with good mindgames so it's pretty moot.
If you want to party up on SWF sometime I would try to set up a day to test this with you.
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@LordGlint said:
@Dathro why do you insist that his slow is not benefiting him? While it's true that he himself gets a small slow when he throws a bottle, the amount is NOT the same as the slow a survivor would get. The survivor is ALSO slowed for longer than JUST the 2 seconds you keep mentioning, since you also have to take into account the time it takes for a survivor to walk through the gas. This is why its generally better to preplace the gas in a spot you know the survivor will want to walk through, so you can fully take advantage of the time it takes for them to get out of it. If I see a survivor wants to loop killer shake for example, ill toss a bottle through the window, towards the middle-ish of the room, before continuing with the loop. The survivor is then forced to walk the entire diameter of the gas, followed by 2 seconds after they get out. Any time they spend slowed is effectively doubling how fast you are closing the distance, It also denies the use of fast vaults, further slowing them down.
Test it in KYF. You'll see that yes, while there is a little variance regarding how long they stay in the cloud, it is in any case so close to neutral that it's not clear the Power is worth using except niche situations.
I mentioned in original post that it changes fast vaults into medium vaults, but you really need to stack that with a good duration of slow to actually overcome Clown's self-slow and get a net benefit. For this reason, Jungle Gyms are a spot where Clown can get some value from the bottle, but even that's really clunky due to how small the gyms are, since by the time you have a good angle to throw the bottle, and are also not already simply in melee range, the Surv is well on their way to the window already and it's too late to try throwing a bottle unless you throw one over the wall before you enter the gym.
Also as Nephs mentioned, good Survs will see you pull the bottle out and just bail to the next loop instead of going through the gas and window like you want, buying time, because they know this is how Clown extracts maximum value.
Let's say for the sake of discussion I'm wrong here, say the gas consistently shortens Clown's time-until-melee-range when chasing optimally as long as he touches a Surv with it. The question now is, by how much? Test it. This isn't the easiest game to do experiments on since it's difficult to run a loop identically multiple times, but you'll do well enough to see the Power yields pitiful results.
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@EldritchElise87 said:
I think most of your points are valid, but its easy to get distracted when you say Clown is the worst killer, when its clearly not true.
Trapper, LF and current Freddy are all far below him, and he sits roughly in low A high B tier, hes very much average in terms of power level compared to other killers.
The point about his slow is true, and without bleach you do rely on survivors avoiding the gas or otherwise using the bottles to cause them to make a mistake, but then thats no different to trapper, or hag to some degree.
Having a killer being reliant on 1 addon to make them decent isnt ideal, but its no different to many other killers.
So yes, Clown could use a few tweaks, and could be buffed without troubling the top 3 easily, but hes by no means the worst killer in the game.
You say LF, Trapper & Freddy are below him, but fail to give reasons why. You say Clown is between A and B tier and that he's average in Power, despite everything said in this thread, despite agreeing with me that his Power does nothing without bleach.
It is not the same as Hag or Trapper, not at all. Those Powers are used out of chase. They then help you either get a free hook (trapper) or shorten a chase when you're in one later (hag), as opposed to Clown's Power, which as mentioned, doesn't even help in chase (the one thing it's supposed to do).
Hag traps do not rely on mistakes. They're in your path and you get hit if you step on one against a good Hag no matter what you do. You might argue "stepping on Hag trap is a mistake":
- It isn't much of a mistake if there's no way to avoid this, which often times, there isn't.
- If a Survivor is godly enough to know where all the traps are, and loop away from them, their loops will be SIGNIFICANTLY worse than if the traps were not present, so in conclusion, she does not rely on mistakes at all, her Power is guaranteed value if used correctly.
Trapper's trap, like Hag, forces you off a loop if one is in your way, or you'll very soon be on a one-way trip to the Hook, which is a lot more upside than Clown's addonless Power is ever capable of. You can argue these can be sabotaged, and failing to do so is a misplay, but:
- That often comes down to your teammates sabotaging them or not if you're in chase, and you have no direct control over them.
- It requires constant scouting of the Trapper, which is a resource that would not necessarily need to be spent against non-trap based Killers
- Sabo'ing a Trap is time spent not on a generator, healing, etc...
Clown's Power does not shorten loops or give him a hit sooner - like Hag, and it does not threaten an instadown like Trapper. In threatens nothing.
So how exactly have you reached the conclusion that he is better than Trapper? You can't say Clown's power helps with loops, as we've established it does not.
He doesn't just rely on Bleach to make him good, he relies on it to make his Power useful in any capacity. That still doesn't mean he's good when he has Bleach. It just goes from actually useless, to slightly useful. And the fact that you still get kills with him sometimes is evidence of nothing except that Survivors are potatoes sometimes at all Ranks.
I'm tired of people like you defending Clown as being a mid-table Killer without an explanation of why. I put together a thread debunking the mathematically false, but typical reasoning, and you reject it.
I don't want you to tell me he's average, or strong, or weak but not the very worst. I want you to tell me precisely why. Address the points made in this thread.
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Also, is it odd that most (not all) of Liscensed characters are all Bad? But their own OC-Kind of Chapters/Paragraphs are Actually balanced and viable?... Most of the time?
Looking at my own tier list, there's not too much correlation with licensed Killers and how strong they are. Just none of them are above mid-tier.
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Pike clearly doesn't understand the concept of tiers in a video game guys. Presumably they don't actually believe Nurse is as strong as Trapper, Legion, Leatherface, Clown etc...
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Clown can't be that high since his Power doesn't do anything. He's in the dumpster truly in a tier of his own.
At the peak of Hag and Huntress skill (which few have ever seen in-game), they're at least as good, or better than Billy.
Freddy has long been underrated. Plague is possibly B Tier, I have the least confidence in her placement of all Killers at the moment.
Mine is probably super controversial, but I feel I can defend every placement.
S = bypass Survivor mechanics regularly. Consistently performs well at top level.
A = Less consistently performs at top level. Highly dependent on map.
B+ = Pretty solid Killer at most levels.
B = Not very good, but not total trash.
C = Trash at top level.
D = Broken pile of pixels. Power doesn't perform intended function at all.
In general A and B+ are where all Killers should be balanced in my opinion.
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Unless this has been patched at some point, no, it only affects standard M1 for any Killer.
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The 2 nastiest pieces of tech I've seen are the instant teleport hit, and the placement of a trap such that it turns the Surv's camera so that they are forced off their loop.
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Right now looks like he's going to be another dumpster-tier Killer.
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@KillermainBTWm8 said:
I would say LF and GF are on my list for the actual worst and wow it's funny how the two killers with last word "face" in them have the shittiest powers interesting.
1) Ghostface isn't even out yet.
2) While I would never say Leatherface is good, he absolutely must be better than Clown since his stats are exactly Clown, but with an actual Power. He can cut down pallets and instadown, and he bypasses a lot of the nonsense mechanics around unhooking since he can saw both players down.
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@TheGameZpro3 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/518808#Comment_518808
You keep on mentioning he self-slow's himself using his power, but so do most of the killers when going to use their powers.
- Spirit has to stop moving for a moment of time to use her power.
- Hillbilly and Leatherface have to charge up their chainsaw.
- (This part is I think, I know nothing about this killer) Nurse walks slower to charge her blink.
- Trapper and Hag have to stop completly to place their traps.
- The Plague walks slower charging up her vomit.
- Michael walks slower when Stalking.
- Freddy (no add-ons) has to wait SEVEN seconds to even hit his victims.
- Huntress has to wind up her hatchets to throw them.
- Wraith walks slower when uncloaking.
- Pig has to charge up her Ambush, which while crouching, she moves slower.
Not trying to say Clown's a good killer, but that self-slow part is kinda irrelevant when every other killer, in some way, also self-slows themselves.
The difference is those Powers all do something which if successful, is so strong that it more than compensates for the temporary self-slow.
It would be different if the bottle slowed Survivors by so much that it was worth it. By so much that Clown actually shortened a chase by gassing them. But currently it's a neutral tradeoff. It actually does nothing. Clearly you've been reading my comments, so I don't know whether you missed the part about Surv slow and self-slow canceling each other out, or whether you think I'm being dishonest about it.
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@Mister_xD said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/513043#Comment_513043
his power is literally one of the best anti chase abilities in the game...
his problems lies in another aspect of his design: map pressure. he has literally no map pressure, therefore he gets genrushed super easily, losing a lot of games.
Explain to me mechanically, using math, how it helps him in a chase, in light of what has already been detailed ad nauseam in this thread regarding his Power having a self-slow, and I'll tell you why you're wrong.
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@Traslogan said:
My understanding of it, which could be wrong, is that unless you are in a chase actively, your proximity counts either way.
This isn't right. The 4 conditions that prevent standing within 16m of a Hooked Surv penalizing Chaser are:
- Killer is in chase
- Any other Surv is within 16m of the Hook
- It's the last Survivor
- Hook is on different floor than Killer
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@ReikoMori said:
Clown lacks an effective way to pressure the map and get survivors to slow down. He's definitely a weak killer, but his chases are pretty nice. Afterpiece Tonic is probably one of the best made powers. It makes sense to use, helps out in the chase, and can get a lot of variety out of its addons. It is also just fun to hit people with a bottle.
This thread details why it actually doesn't help in a chase without specific addons. The concept is a good one, the math is why it's useless.
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@FTSA said:
clown isn't weak at all, he's extremely underrated actually. The reason people dont play him isnt because he's weak, its because he's boring. BHVR should focus on fixing weak killers not the boring ones.
Instead of just replying to the thread title, could you respond to the contents? His power doesn't do anything. Lowest impact Power by far.
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@DoubleTap said:
Here's a scenario for you:
Survivors are hook camping and go for an unsafe unhook by an open exit gate
There where no other hooks further away, if you had tried to get to another hook they'd have escaped, and dropping them as far as you can away from the gate isn't an option because they can crawl out within the EGC timer and trying to pick them up again once they near the exit results in them escaping anyway.
You don't have Noed because your not a scrublord and wouldn't have done anything anyway because of the above reason.
All other Survivors have full health and those that aren't trying to body block the unsafe unhook are waiting by the exit gate mere feet away.
You have one, JUST ONE option and that is to tunnel the Survivor who just got rescued and HOPE they don't have MoM or DH and that the rescuer didn't have Borrowed Time.
You down the Survivor, you can't leave them to bleed out for 60 seconds to safely pick them up or they'll escape.
In this scenario where your only option is to tunnel, upon which finding out you never had any option in the first place because of DS? Bad game design. Every situation should always be counterable with the right application of tactical nuance.
It's actually funny how many times this exact thing happens to Killers who aren't Billy/LF. All 5 people in the lobby know exactly how this is going to play out if the right perks are in play.
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It doesn't matter if Clown is slowed 1 second versus 2 seconds for Surv. The total amount of how much Clown and Surv are slowed is equal. Test it. Those times you got a hit after slowing them with bottle, you would've gotten without using the bottle as well.
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The way around it is called not tunneling.
My problem with this is it discourages tunneling to such a degree that there's nothing to discourage hook dives. If you hook someone and 5 seconds later, when you are not attempting to camp/tunnel they are unhooked, are Killers supposed to let that happen for free and patrol other side of map? So they can get looped for 2-3 more gens? Or rather punish the unsafe unhook and be accused of "tunneling" and in the process punished by DS for an action we were forced into if we want to do well.
Used to be unsafe hooks were punished, and they should be, but now what do you get for hitting a Surv fresh off the Hook? You have to leave them on the ground for 1 minute, which means either letting gens get done if you camp them or letting them get healed up if you patrol.
The presence of DS alters Killer behavior in a way that makes hook dives which should be punishable, unpunishable.
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Regarding your 3 problems with my post:
1) it does not matter whether the slow occurs during his bottle throw or after. It clearly occurs every time he uses his Power.
2) I didn't imply the goal is to get the Survivor to stand in the gas, but the longer they're in it, the longer they're slowed, and if you can get them to run through an entire cloud instead of just touching it, that stacks with slower vault speed to create one of the only conditions by which his Power has any use whatsoever.
3) My entire post explained why getting hit by gas doesn't give Clown a hit and why Survs do not need to respect it unless certain addons are used.
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@Toxicity23 said:
Laddie, Clown ISN'T the worst killer in the game. If anything, he's A-tier in my book. The worst killer (As of right now), is Freddy. There are a few issues as to what your saying.
- Clown ONLY gets slowed down for a second AFTER throwing the bottle. Not during, or before.
- You're not trying to force the Survivor to stay in the gas, only to force them to get into it the first place, since the hindered effect is still applied 2 seconds after leaving the cloud, long enough to close the distance significantly or land a hit on the survivor. Either way, if the Survivor is hit with the gas, it's a potentially free hit for Clown.
- Survivors DON'T avoid the gas because they're respecting the [Bad Word] out of it. They avoid it because they know that if they run into the gas, they'll get slowed down, therefore, giving the Clown a free hit. Which is why Clown is good at shutting down loops.
I've played Clown so much. So much to the point where I feel I main him. The Clown is a strong killer, a great one, a fun one. The Clown (to me) is the makings of a good killer. Fun to play, and has a place in the competitive ranks, (Which I don't plan on reaching.) The fact that you think that the Clown is weak is suggesting you're not playing him correctly, or you don't quite understand how his power actually works.
Are you denying that his Power has no net effect in a chase?
If Clown throws a Bottle and a Surv runs into it, Clown doesn't gain ground unless Surv makes some mistake or vaults within 2 seconds. This is the point of why he's bad.
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It's like Survivor version of NOED. Theoretically the devs want us to base strong play around the broken Emblem/Rank system rather than Kills/Escapes.
A perk that only comes online for the final objective can only matter so much. The only way for Killers to do really well in this game is to Snowball off a strong early-mid game, so this should be where Surv resources take priority.
NOED & Adrenaline are both annoying when they're high impact. They're unreliable and tend to have minimal impact on Emblem system, best case usually turning a totally lost game into an okay one. You don't win a lost or neutral game with these perks.