Xetoil
Xetoil
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One thing I think is absurd about this game is the amount of "Meta" information (Information which persists between trials and not within the trial itself) the killer has to juggle/keep in mind, which only increases per significant patch.
To a new player, the first time they see Borrowed time, they must think "Why did he glow white then not go down". From that game onwards they have to play around the potential existence of Borrowed Time.
Same for Decisive Strike and Unbreakable, which have the added bonus of having to remember which survivor used which so far.
In contrast, when I play survivor, the only killer perk which comes to mind which I have to alter my playstyle to potentially counter during every game is Barbecue and Chili.
The thing about these above four perks is that they have zero telegraph to allow you to play around them, you just have to assume they are in play every game, as when they come into play they put you at a major and immediate disadvantage. In contrast, another line of strong perks, exhaustion perks, come into play many times in a game, and are often telegraphed quite early on, and are, to an extent, mutually exclusive in the sense that if someone has already used sprint burst, you can count on them not using dead hard in the same chase at the very least. As well as this, after their initial use, opportunity to play around them during future encounters presents itself.
Perks like the above four instead demand that players always play in a certain way due to the potential existence of these perks, (I know that BBQ has counter play, but you are actually playing against the potential that BBQ is in play, rather than playing against the perk itself).
This means two things, that the knowledge that a new player needs to have in order to play in a viable way increases as more of these perks are released. And that the (seemingly) most viable tactics during common in-game situations are often based inordinately on information gathered outside of the trial/match, (namely, the possibility of certain perks being in play) instead of from information gathered within the match.
I just think its bad game design, but then again, a system wherein the most effective tactic is to remove a player from the game as soon as possible, and then continue to play the bulk of that match without said player, is also bad game design.
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@ZoneDymo said:
Right after we get an actual African female, Libya, Egypt, Ethiopoia, Botswana, South Africa, Mali, take your pick.
As well as right after a Russian, Australian, Indonesian, Argentinian, Brazilian, Mongolian, Indian, Finnish, Turkish etc etc etc characters have been introduced.
Not to mention obviously characters from countries that no longer exist and countries from the future.
Honestly I would love a medieval survivor or some variation thereof. Or else something similar to the Plague, (being from an ancient civilization) but in survivor form.
The cast of Eternal Darkness and their variety comes to mind.
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I never noticed this, but actually I agree. Part of what gives the survivors their charm (in my opinion) is their plainness. Although I still like the designs of all of the celebrity-tier female characters, it's true that none of them are a David or a Meg in the sense that they are relateable, and DBD's survivor roster may start looking like a group of unlikely heroes instead of regular and unfortunately tortured souls if it continues.
I imagine these kinds of characters sell better though. Although I like the original cast. I'm not sure I would buy them if I didn't have to.
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I actually really like the perk, although I havent yet had the chance to test it in all the situations that it may be applicable.
I first started using it on Spirit where I would just stand still at pallets and people would think I've phased away and walk into me.
I've considered it might be fun to use (not necessarily optimal) at long loops with LOS blockage, you could just stand there for 2 seconds and the survivor may think you've moonwalked or gone away and run into you, but I haven't really tested it yet.
I'm sure this perk allows lots of creative ways to get the spook on survivors or otherwise confuse them. Sure its obvious application is as a camping perk but I don't think thats the be all end all of its potential use.
Maybe someday I'll give it some rigorous testing, I think it may have a lot of unrealized potential.
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@Marcavecunc said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1087530#Comment_1087530
Good :D
Some people need to learn that mistakes happen. Just because someone leads the killer to you doesn't mean it was done on purpose. Unless they do it over and over, then it's suspicious.
Sometimes the only safe place to run away from the killer happens to be the jungle gym you're in.
Well said mate, reminds me of another story where a fellow survivor had that kind of sour attitude and sandbagged me for what she thought of as "leading the killer to us". Its not a great story though because it ended with my internet crashing and being forced out of the game. But I heard that she learnt her lesson in the post-game chat where she raged about me only to find that both of her remaining teammates were part of my SWF :)
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Honestly, whenever a forum post says "Mod" or "Dev" on it, I rush to that one straight away, sometimes the Dev responses on the forums can be sassy or blunt it really makes me laugh (in a good way of course), and I think they really do a good job at keeping the tone on these forums light and a constructive.
Likewise, they often have eye-opening and insightful things to say about the state of their game, and I'm often looking at my screen internally saying "THANK YOU DEVS" for talking sense when perceptions in the community get a bit out of whack (which they do from time to time).
I think the team of devs/mods we have on the forums definitely bring an injection of personality to the community, and it would surely be a far poorer place without them. In fact, I remember times when they weren't posting as much, and I thought of these forums as this place where all people do is rage, but that has really changed now, there is a lot of constructive discussion going on here :)
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Today I accidentally sandbagged my teammate in solo queue and then dropped a pallet on her face, causing her to take a hit. I could literally feel her rage through my PC screen, so I ran in circles around her whilst she just stood there (presumably raging IRL), and took the hit for her when the killer followed through.
In the end everyone escaped and I was quick to be like SORRY LAURIE in the post-game chat. We had a laugh about the whole thing, she told me she was raging hard when it happened but then I took the hit for her and she realised it was just a mistake and cooled down haha. Not really a story about getting back at toxic teammates, but it was a good laugh with a stranger.
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I love the new doctor, and I would definitely recommend giving him a spin because I honestly don't see enough of them when I play survivor.
He is also really versatile, in the sense that he responds well to a lot of different builds and playstyles, with his addons allowing for even more flexibility. I'm pretty much in the position nowadays where I only want to play doctor, although that could just be because he fits my preferred playstyle well.
My personal build is PGTW, Dark Devotion, Infectious Fright and Nurses Calling, with any Order and Restraint Addons (The order addon is important). This lets you keep everyone in madness 2 pretty constantly, and pretty much lets you know where everyone is without them knowing where you are.
Another build I like is "Silent Doc", Stack 2 calm addons, and then Monitor and Abuse, then pick your favourite non-terror radius perks. You will have virtually no terror radius whilst your power is on cooldown, so you can sneak up to survivors to spook the daylights out of them, it's pretty fun.
I could go on about doctor builds for ages honestly, but its worth giving him a spin to see for yourself.
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@Carlosylu said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1086694#Comment_1086694
Meh, true.
Then don't tunnel or just leave him slugged? It's annoying and another survivor has to waste time healing him
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1086699#Comment_1086699
No man, I'm not being rude, I really mean it, I know the feeling of dying to a killer cause of NOED when he didn't deserve a single K cause he was tunneling and/or camping or just cause you outplayed him the whole match but NOED gave him a k.
But I don't feel bad when he was a really good killer and also had NOED, I usually think like "damn, you're that good and you also use NOED, give us a chance man! Hehehehe"
Okay cool yeah, I wasn't sure but thought I'd mention it because things are so easy to misinterpret when its text only, no worries :)
Thats a pretty good attitude you've got there when good killers run NOED haha, I guess it doesn't really happen often enough for me to really draw on my experience in that regard, but I can completely understand how if your adrenaline is already high enough, adding NOED into an already difficult equation can potentially make the situation even more thrilling, which in turn is the prime reason why devour hope feels so amazing to go against, it gives you that epic rush of "oh god no!". It's something that DBD would really benefit from having more of, but from a developer perspective it really is a thin line that has to be handled with care.
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@Carlosylu said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1083304#Comment_1083304
I get it, I also hate when a baby killer uses NOED to get 1k, not when a good one does even without an end game build
I can't tell if you're trying to be rude or not, but yeah there is a certain amount of respect for when the killer isn't riding on the back of NOED to get his/her kills. That being said, even if the killer is good, if your team had to sweat out 5 gens in what was otherwise a balanced game, only for the last two remaining survivors to get NOED'd that also feels bad.
I just want to make clear I'm not talking about the balance of the perk, I'm talking about the way it feels to lose against. Videogames where you are expected to lose work best when losing feels good (which it does in many, many games), but DBD often doesn't really capture that feeling of losing and it being epic. I think Moris and NOED (and keys to a lesser extent), really sit on the far side of the spectrum when it comes to mechanics that make losing feel bad. This isn't really a criticism of the balance of the perk at all, it's of how the mechanics of DBD have been handled.
I'm sure there is another universe where NOED is pretty much functionally identical to the way it is now but when it activates you feel excited rather than cheated, which is how it ideally should feel.
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@Hoodied said:
If you are talking about the "Breakbreakablewall" code, something is wrong that people are ignoring
People instantly went, even me, "New killer smasher", but I recognized in the coding with slasher, All the killers I believe will have Slasher-Killer#, so for example, A killer has Slasher-10 I believe, while in the code, it says just Slasher.
This could mean that this is a passive ability, or a perk ability. The code could, however, not be finished and eventually have the killers code in it. It is also labeled in the "Destruction" part, I think this means that this is Destruction-Brutality. I could be wrong as I am not a dataminer, but I am learning!
I would actually love it if this were a perk.
Survivors be doing gens and then from nowhere -
TRAPPER SURPRISE.
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To address: DS, BT, Adrenaline, DH
It's because these perks don't define a "playstyle" (except Dead Hard, I quite like that one), they just make normal actions better.
I take a lot of joy in creating builds, and thinking about perk synergies, so just slapping on "the best" feels kind of hollow.
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@[Deleted User] said:
The first is too harsh it should only be seconds at most. Why should everyone in our SWF have to wait 5 minutes every time someone gets a loading screen crash before we can play again?
Since they basically admitted making it not punish innocent folks is impossible the least they can do is ease up on the first one so that it's not as harsh on them.
After that, the later ones honestly are the opposite problem, they should be much more harsh, assuming that the cooldown period is about 24 hours in between or 12 hours between the DCs or something.
It would be worth chasing confirmation about this but, if someone crashes on the loading screen then the trial never actually begins, so it may not apply a penalty in that scenario.
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Definitely Dark Devotion. I bought this game to spook survivors. I live for the spook.
When I see that black shadow envelope my screen, I drop everything I'm doing and go in for the spook.
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@EvilJoshy said:
I'll believe it when I see it. Which I won't. You don't exactly see a dc'er get punished so you never know if it's working.
Just DC from a game yourself and you'll know that its working.
@Tactless_Ninja said:
DC'ing should also up your rank. Game shouldn't be easier for being salty.
I think that would be hilarious, rage quit only to come back 4 minutes later and get curbstomped. It probably wouldn't work as a feature in the long run, but its a nice thought.
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@Carlosylu said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1081554#Comment_1081554
I like it as it is and only use it with Freddy as a combo for remember me and BW
Theres exactly one time where I thought NOED was a cool thing to go against, and that was when I was going against a Demogorgon with pretty much exactly the build you said. Thing is he was actually an okay player, and it was clear he was building up to an end-game massacre, I think that is what stopped it from feeling lame, (kind of like you said in the opening post).
I just think it would be better if there was a way to keep it from feeling lame in other contexts, but still keep its potential as an end-game perk as part of an end-game build.
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I hit red ranks today as survivor for the first time and honestly I'm only there because I pip against the rank 16 killers I'm matched with.
It's kind of frustrating because it builds bad habits into you, on the rare occasions I do go against an experienced killer, they will know how to get me at tiles in ways I've never thought of, if only because "the wrong thing" often works against killers who are less experienced.
I know this is the way you learn, but it would be nice if I could learn once every few games instead of once every 15 or so, but I suppose with the new MMR coming out that may be alleviated somewhat.
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Personally when I'm ranked against a rank 16 who is "trying ghostface for the first time", then yeah it's too easy and not really fun. But those few times I am actually ranked against a killer who is experientially on a similar level to me, then nah its not too easy, win or lose it feels about right.
I feel like this is entirely a matchmaking problem though, but it does make me wonder if the matchmaking is this bad, is the "good killer" (loose term here, please forgive me) population just really low? Or otherwise is the "good killer" population just mixed among the mid-low ranks and thus indistinguishable via matchmaking? I'm not trying to make the statement that either of these things are happening, but it does cause one to wonder.
The reason I say this is because most of my SWF group is in the red/purple ranks (the green doesnt play that much), but we've only gone against 2 red rank killers since January I think. I know they exist, but I ain't ever seeing them outside youtube. Purple ones are likewise rare.
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My killer definitely, my survivor would dead hard into all the walls.
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@AsePlayer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1081727#Comment_1081727
Oh my bad, I wasn't insulting you. It was directed at the killer haha
Oh right, cool mate, thought I'd give you the benefit of the doubt there :) He was an alright killer really, it was our last match of the night and we were memeing with each other until he unexpectedly steamrolled us haha. It was a pretty good way to end the session.
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@AsePlayer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1081705#Comment_1081705
Improving is overrated.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say, although it sounds like you're insulting me, but I was only trying to support your point that 4-man SWF groups are not equal to death. From my experience, you're right about solo queues with skilled players often being indistinguishable from an organized SWF group, and I was just trying to humorously point out that sometimes the 4-man SWF groups perform worse than a random solo queue.
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From an earlier game, 2 of us rank 4, one rank 6, one rank 10
But we all had a good time.
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I agree with you about the mindset around NOED, likewise when people say it "punishes survivors for doing gens fast" these arguments are also absurd. Even if you do gens slow NOED can still activate, seeing as its difficult to quantify how many totems were done in any less than a 4-man SWF.
Regardless, my only two concerns about the perk ATM is that as the devs roll out better hiding locations for totems, NOED gets quite stronger. Consider totems go from being a thing that "you see between generators", to something you "Won't notice unless you're looking", that's quite a strong buff.
Secondly, NOED just feels bad to lose against. Blood Warden on the other hand doesn't, it makes you go WHOOAAAAA HE HAS BLOOD WARDEN!!!! As opposed to the more lackluster reaction from a NOED reveal.
I think if NOED gets reworked, the strength is less important compared to the way it feels to lose against it. I have some ideas about how it could be reworked but I haven't really refined them through discussion, and that isn't what the thread is about anyway.
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"I teabagged for the first time since 2018"
"Clicks link"
"So, I've had daily for Ghostface"
Did not expect, well played mate.
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For a long time it was the Trapper, I really enjoyed the strategy aspect of his gameplay and his overall design really appealed to me, but he was also really frustrating to play at times, as his tactics tend to rely on either heavy map knowledge or very advanced tile knowledge, so I hit a skill ceiling quite quickly before I realised I would have to heavily commit to studying DBD to get any better.
Then the Doc rework happened and although it's still early days, I have taken to pretty much exclusively playing as him. The way I play him takes advantage of the knowledge you get from survivors being in madness tier 2 (I use a brown order addon for guaranteed tier 2 every shock), and I use perks like dark devotion to get the jump on survivors and juggle their health states similar to how you might as Wraith/Ghostface. I have to say I feel menacing playing as him, which is exactly how I want to feel playing as a psycho killer. Plus Dark Devotions synergy with static blast, allowing you to proxy shock, is so damn funny.
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I would be interested to know whether some regions are more toxic than others, (so far when I play SWF we take guesses on our teammates/the killers nationality based on their playstyle and we for the most part we tend to guess right). We play in EU, but I will be changing regions this year so my interest in the subject has piqued somewhat (I'm generally interested in culture/behaviour in my life outside the game).
Personally I get quite a bit of toxicity in my games but as others have pointed out, when I take a step back and look at the bigger picture it IS the minority. Although when I finally do change regions it will be interesting to see if/how that minority shifts.
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Some of the features of this game's balance are awful, worse than any other game I've played. (I still can't believe Mori's were a thing that some guy thought "yeah this would definitely make our game more enjoyable", same with old Mettle of Man).
But at the same time, alot of the issues in this game can be played around or ignored entirely for most sessions. For example, I find NOED and DS both absolutely awful to play against under certain circumstances, but for the majority of the games I lose, these perks often aren't the reason. (And when I win, these perks are often in play too, because they're popular).
I don't think either perks are really in a good place balance-wise, but the game isn't destroyed by them in the same way that a cacophony of scrub players picking Ryu and spamming Hadouken for every match of whichever Street Fighter game hasn't destroyed online play for that franchise.
People do complain a lot in this community, and whilst many of their complaints may be valid, I do agree with your sentiment that players should shift their attitude to one which analyses & adapts to difficult situations, rather than one which lingers on vengeful emotions. This is pretty much the one quality which, IMO, is the biggest block for any player (or any person) who wants to really get good at something, whether it be in a game or life in general. You don't always get to change the rules, and even if they do change its going to take time, so better get good in the meantime.
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I'm pretty sure I was in one of those games with a 3-man SWF group, and the guy you moried was the only one who wasn't part of our group.
I felt bad for her but at the same time seeing it come full circle with this post makes me lol.
Thanks for the contribution and have a nice day.
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I would go with first injure, personally, as I would want to avoid creating a situation where the first survivor does well on their first chase but the team is penalized for it because gen speed was slower the whole time. I also would want to avoid situations where the killer injures multiple people but the game hasn't started properly yet because none of them have been downed.
I think if someone is injured, that's inarguably a mark that the game has started, and should be good enough to kick off the trial proper.
The only problem I can think of is that there is now probably a coefficient out there detailing an estimated chase time + pallets used per second time, in which, if achievement is a reasonable possibility, makes it so it is now better for the first survivor to take a hit and do the first chase injured, than to do part of the chase healthy and the rest injured. I don't know if that number will be significant but if it is then I would be uncomfortable adding that mechanic into my game. (It's maths problems like these that make me glad I'm not a professional Game Designer).
Otherwise Myers' ability to stalk and delay the trial start until tier 3 could also pose a problem, but you could add the addendum that stalking to tier 2 also counts in addition to the base requirements if a similar maths solution to the above does indeed show that he may be a problem.
Regardless, I think some sort of trial warmup would be a good addition, and also add to the games atmosphere greatly if introduced with care. I would be epic watching the lighting changing etc, almost as if the killer "has arrived", similar to how it was in deathwatch.
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To those who are saying nothing has changed post-ruin nerf if you never used ruin in the first place, I would disagree, I think quite a bit has changed.
I see way more survivors running prove thyself now that old ruin is gone.
(although not directly related to ruin) survivors have started running unbreakable way more. Although this was always the direct counter to the DS -> Slug gameplay that new DS created, it seemingly became way more prevalent after the ruin nerf, I would guess this is because the ruin nerf led to more slugging overall and not just to counter DS, but at the same time it may just be because survivors, as a group (as opposed to just a few ahead of the curve players), started to realise that the chance of being slugged was higher since DS changed.
I seem to see a lot more green+ toolboxes in my games too, but its possible I just never paid attention before the ruin nerf.
I wouldn't be surprised if resilience also became more popular, although I think this is more to do with several streamers highlighting it after the ruin nerf and not directly because ruin was nerfed.
I don't think it would be much of a stretch to say that survivors may also get a kick out of doing gens faster now that they know theres a 100% chance of no ruin (old ruin), and that this has led to some slightly different in-game behaviour, although it would be hard to quantify.
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I think the draw of playing both sides is different.
Personally, I consider myself a killer main, but I do play a lot of survivor too, it's just that I almost exclusively play survivor as part of a 3-man SWF group and very rarely alone.
When we play SWF, it is pretty similar to Ayruns experiences, we just mess around and have fun. We're all red/purple ranks but to be honest none of us are really that good at the game, a fact which doesn't really matter as we consistently get ranked against killers who are far less experienced than us anyway. None of us are really toxic, clicking flashlights teabagging etc. but simply by virtue of knowing the game and being organized as a team we get flashlight saves etc, we even get MoM to procc fairly often for what its worth.
Often I feel pretty bad for the killers we win against (we lose a lot of games too mind you), because some of our behaviour is borderline bullying from another perspective (although its not intended that way, but when a killer spends 3 gens going for 1 chase only to get pallet stunned whilst holding the survivor it can't feel good at all), but we spend most of our time laughing and bantering around the game, and for me at least that is the main "pull" of playing survivor alongside trying to win.
Killer on the other hand is a completely different game, it's like comparing AoE II (Killer) to Halo 3's Big Team Battle mode (Survivor). I go in knowing that I may potentially (Mostly due to the RNG of survivor skill, map and items) have to give every ounce of my brainpower to get through the game. I enjoy playing games for this reason.
The gap between survivor and killer in DBD is IMO huge, they're like completely different games, but I think theres nothing inherently wrong with that. The fact that killer makes you sweat is, for me atleast, actually its attractive point. Sure maybe at the moment its potentially too survivor sided with insane maps like the farm maps mixed with a very, very solid meta strategy on the survivor side, but because of the useless matchmaking system I just as often go against potatoes as I do deathsquads, and so the crazy imbalances of this game are at least not ubiquitously apparent.
Plus its always fun to curbstomp a player who thinks they're good when they actually aren't.
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@Lufanati said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1076725#Comment_1076725
You got rekt. Can't say I ever have people do bones in my games. I think noed has activated every time I brought it. Whether it stays active for any time is another question
I was joking dude. Although all bones cleared did happen to me once whilst doing the NOED tome challenge from Tome 1, but it wasn't a death squad. Otherwise I don't really use it enough to know.
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>Play Survivor
>All killers have NOED
>Die when the gates are open and feel bad
>Play Killer
>"This time Imma bring NOED hehehe"
>First match vs 4-man deathsquad
>Gens are done in 3 minutes
>"Hehehe"
>NOED doesn't activate
>????
>AllTotemsCleansed.jpg
>sadtrapper
Anyone else feel this way?
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Don't let people bully you into thinking you're a bad thing. Do what seems to be the most logical play in the moment, sometimes it will be a good play, sometimes it won't be. If someone whines that you played unfair or whatever, either ignore them or ask them what the better play would have been. Chances are they won't even know.
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I never really understood the the opinion that flashlights are this evil toxic thing. A couple of days ago I went against a team where one of the guys switched to a flashlight at the last second. Presumably he was trying to hide the fact he was bringing one.
I find this interesting because it assumes that I care enough about him bringing a flashlight that I'm going to do something in the pre-game lobby to counter it. In all honesty, I'm not going to sacrifice one of my perk slots for lightborn or franklin's (not to imply franklins is a bad perk, I quite like it, it just doesn't suit the way I like to play), because I like playing with my builds as they are.
Flashlights aren't hard to play around either, once you get used to them they'll only work every now and again against you and not all the time like they might when you're less experienced.
As an example, one common mistake I see killers make when someone tries to flashlight them mid chase is to look left and right to avoid it, which means you'll likely stop moving in a straight line, and won't catch up with the survivor easily. Other killers look down, which obscures their view of where the survivor is going. But if they look up they get to keep the downwards peripheral vision, and can duck their head down slightly every now and again to see around a bit better. This means they can continue running in a straight line, and get a hit where another player wouldn't have got one.
I do appreciate that currently they are bugged and blind you way too fast, so there is an argument for the hate against them being valid right now. But at the same time I feel the opinion of flashlights being evil has predated that bug.
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@Mo4ntus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1071746#Comment_1071746
The way this proposed perk works you could do this at the start of the game and I know gens go fast but not that fast
I took the fact that he didn"t say "Perk no longer activates when gates are powered" combined with "The ability to kill with your hands cannot be applied if the survivor was still injured once the last generator has been completed unless they are fully healed" to mean that the the fact that the perk activates when the gates are powered was left unchanged.
But if you interpret it to mean that the perk is always active then yeah, what you've said is completely valid. Moreso it would mean that potentially the first survivor you see is an insta-kill because, who would really switch targets that early if they had a perk like this, it would be mad OP.
Although if that were the case it still wouldn't really be a tunnel perk because you'd kill them before they even got hooked once.
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@NorMak3 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1071861#Comment_1071861
Thank you Xetoil, that's really helpful. I'll make sure to make some changes over the weekend for the reasoning for each of the changes listed as I go along, try to fix up the Game Feel/Rules of Balance distinction and maybe split each of these up into separate documents out here on the wiki. I'll just have to be careful not to spam with too many new discussions :). And as for the critiques themselves, this is exactly what I wanted: honest, but kind analysis. Thanks for the warm welcome!
You're welcome mate :)
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Hello Mate,
I want to keep this brief, but that probably isn't going to happen. I see you've put a lot of your time and imagination into this document, and I've had a flick through it. Considering it's 57 pages long I doubt there are going to be many others doing that, but your approach to the subject kind of reminded me of myself, so I thought I'd give you a response.
I'm not going to address specific points, because there are 57 pages of them, but as an amateur game designer myself (mostly with board games), I have a couple of things to tell you about your overall approach to the subject.
You propose a lot of changes in this document, and it is unclear to me from reading it why you believe these changes to be necessary. I'm not saying that they are unnecessary, but, for example, what made you decide that a new scratch mark system was necessary? Many would say it is completely unnecessary and overhauling it would potentially kill the game, and so it is very difficult to give constructive feedback when we don't know what issue you are trying to address by overhauling it.
The second is that the number one mantra of game design is playtest. You would be surprised how many seemingly good ideas turn out to be just plain bad (and vice versa) after they are playtested, I've run into this myself many times. Every single idea you have put forward has to be tested before it can really be validated as useful, and 57 pages of ideas is a lot of playtesting. I understand that part of the reason you might have created such a long document was because it was gratifying to do so, but in terms of practicality, the Cannibal entry alone would require at least seven different iterations of playtesting in order to implement, and even then, as I mentioned above, it isn't even very clear why we would choose your changes to implement, as your reasoning for the changes isn't stated at all.
You seem to be quite passionate about the subject of balance and game design, and so if you'd like I could recommend you some books to deepen your knowledge on the subject (I would recommend them in this post but it would be on the border of breaking forum rules and I do not want to risk that).
I think that my feedback is best summed up in your opening chapter "Rules of Balance". This section doesn't actually mention anything about balance at all, and instead focuses on what is known as "Game Feel", an entirely different subject. Ideally, you would want this section to include
- The rules of the game (which can be harder than it sounds to pinpoint)
- The tools which players have at their disposal
- The limits of what these tools should be able to reasonably accomplish
- And optionally, things which inhibit these tools from acting within their boundaries
To elaborate a little, I am going to take pallets as an example of a tool. You could identify three types of pallets, defined by their limits and accomplishments:
- Pallets wherein survivors can use windows and walls in conjunction with the pallet to extend the time before they have to drop it. Accomplishes the main killer/survivor chase interaction. (Mindgame)
- Pallets where here is little space for the survivor to obstruct the killer short of a direct stun. Allows the survivor to feel like they have a fighting chance, whilst giving the killer the opportunity to end the chase quickly (Unsafe)
- Pallets where the killer can not score a hit at all and has to break the pallet to proceed. Allows a limited amount of guaranteed safety and potentially minimum chase length overall (Safe)
Then you can identify factors which inhibit these tools from acting within their boundaries:
- Strong pallets which spawn close to one another can create areas which are potentially stronger than anticipated.
- An abundance of safe pallets can feel stale for both sides as there is little interaction between players
- A bad ratio of the pallet types can leave the game feeling biased to one side
- etc. etc.
Once this is all done, you can then propose solutions for each individual factor. This way you can isolate and amend issues with the game in a way which is logical and achieves a select purpose. For every change made you must also consider:
- How does this change affect other systems in the game?
And then verify that the affects of that change won't create further problems.
If DBD could be used as an example, it's clear that even when you think you have a new addition worked out and completely tested/well implemented, there will always be something you didn't consider which will break your game, it's just part of the trade.
So I left you a long response in regards to your list of changes. It probably isn't exactly what you wanted to hear, but trying to discuss the details of a 57 page document on a public forum has its challenges. I don't mean to insult you or put you down or anything, I can see that you've put a lot of effort into the document and I think thats a great thing, I often make very similar documents, and so I suppose you just reminded me of myself somewhat, and I wanted to reply.
I hope my feedback is of use to you somewhat, I'd be very happy to hear what you think, and I would be down for further discussion of your ideas if you presented them on an single-idea basis (for example: hag changes only), but as it stands I wouldn't really be able to start with the amount of ideas you've presented.
Take care and I hope you are able to take something away from my feedback :)
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I use them when tome challenges require me to do something that another survivor would be helpful for, like that one where you had to complete 4 gens.
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@Mo4ntus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1070996#Comment_1070996
what do you mean pick pig or ghost face and put on nurses and just sit undetectable until they heal
So you mean just let the other 3 escape whilst you do that?
Once they get the gate open or almost open after the first hit the sprint burst will carry you the rest of the way provided you know where it is.
If a player is so eager to get a kill that they're willing to do that, they may as well take rancor, it'd be better in every way.
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@Mo4ntus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/127732/noed-change-how-would-you-feel-if
Too much of a tunnel perk. The noed change needs to be fun for both sides personally I think it should be a hex perk that starts at the beginning of the game it increases your movement speed by 3/4/5% this allows for something to make up for the early game pressure lost when ruin was changed and gives survivors a reason to actually spend time cleansing totems
Not to imply that I'm keen on the idea, but a perk which requires you to hit the same survivor twice, and requires that survivor to be healthy before you hit them is very far from a tunnel perk.
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I'll slug for the 4k if, like an above poster mentioned, I know or have good reason to suspect that the 4th guy is nearby, but generally I'll just hook the dude because because it isn't really much fun otherwise. I'd rather just let the hatch portion of the game play out and end (its in my favour any way), and hurry on to the next game than play walking simulator trying to find the last guy.
Funny story, I was playing survivor once as one of two last survivors and the dude slugged the 3rd survivor for the 4k. It took him 3-5 minutes to find me (I rescued the 3rd guy a few times). In the post game chat he was angry at me and said "Why didn't you just do a gen". Made me laugh.
But if I am killer and someone uses unbreakable, denying me the 4k, I'm just like well played my dude.
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The matchmaking is absolutely terrible at the moment man, I feel your pain. Thankfully the devs know this and hopefully they will fix it, but its in perhaps the worst state its ever been at the moment.
Even games that I win at the moment can feel kind of meh because I know I can just be playing someone who I vastly out-experience, so the feeling of victory is diminished. Not to mention the pre-game anxiety of not knowing whether you got a team of players who vastly outrank you, or a team of players who you vastly outrank, both are quite poor experiences either way.
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This is a case by case thing. I have seen tea-baggers who were clearly using it as a strategy because they were set up with perks/items to loop me, or they wanted to abuse a god loop and were trying to get my attention in order to waste my time, allowing the rest of the team to do gens.
Then there are people who want to hurt you.
I wouldn't be surprised if the two tend to overlap, but I have also been in losing games myself as survivor (as a swf group) where one of us heroically teabags the killer in a last ditch attempt to save someone who would otherwise be on death hook. It often doesn't work but yeah.
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I don't understand all the people in this thread saying that the build was the problem. If you watch the video, bitter murmur was actually responsible for a lot of his super quick downs, Discordance let him get a good start, the only perk which didn't help much was Zanshin Tactics and even then, it allowed him to negate a pallet near the end, so it did its job of shortening a chase.
I'm not really invested enough here to take a side, but if you're going to put a point forward at least make sure its coherent.
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I think the word toxic is used too much when really it isn't a very accurate description of what is going on.
I don't think facecamping is toxic at all. If I get facecamped its just a dead gaming experience, but not necessarily someone trying to emotionally or mentally abuse me (And if that is their intention its a pretty pathetic one, there are far more effective ways to hurt someone).
From my perspective as a killer, I don't know why anyone would derive joy from just standing infront of a hooked survivor for 2 minutes, I'd rather play another game (there are literally tens of thousands to choose from).
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@Coder said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1057427#Comment_1057427
They should reskin it as 4 smurfs and Gargamel, it would be hilarious!
+1 to this idea that would be amazing.
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@Trust_me_Im_a_Doctor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1057195#Comment_1057195
What about Slippery Meat against Trapper?
Streetwise against Hag?
Small Game against Hag?
Calm Spirit against Doctor?
Sixth Sense against Freddy, Shape, Wraith, Spirit, Ghostface or any killer using stealth perks or, in demigorgon's case, add-ons?
I think streetwise against Hag is stretching a bit mate, the real issue is flashlights. All I said was the devs have expressed a viewpoint and I'm saying hopefully they'll follow through with it.
I'm wrong about what they said anyway, they said they didn't want perks to directly counter killers. For example "No Mither means No Blood Orbs" would overwrite "Injured = Blood Orbs" that would require No Mither to have to be changed to include that ability on top of its usual ability.
Calm Spirit on the other hand is "90% No Screams" not "90% When Doc Shock, You No Scream".
I'm guessing you mean either Spine Chill or Premonition by Sixth Sense. They're both strong perks, but not a direct counters in the same way that slippery meat actually works against Trapper (and only trapper) specifically. Bare in mind Premonition doesn't let you know if a killer is approaching you or not, and has a cooldown, and Spine Chill doesn't let you know the direction of the killer, nor does it always give a clear indication that they're actually a threat to you unless you're also good at reading the situation.
But this thread is not about Spine Chill/Premonition, it's about Dead Hard. Dead hard as it stands only counters trappers traps because it grants invulnerability, it's not an intended feature of the perk. If trapper got enough of a good rework, maybe it would be fine keeping it as is, but as an above poster mentioned, Dedicated Servers can make timing those invulnerability frames cumbersome and unreliable, so maybe it does need a change.
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One of my friends once suggested this game be reskinned so its one survivor and four devilish imps harassing the survivor whilst he tries to escape. Obviously just a farce but a funny one when such experiences as killer are so common.
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The devs have said before that they don't want certain perks to work as counter play against certain killers (They said this with No Mither vs The Oni)
Hopefully Trapper will get his time of day as the doctor and freddy did, and all of the outdated counter play against him specifically will be looked into and removed.
Hopefully they'll take out Lightburn too.