WoopinAngel
WoopinAngel
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@MadLordJack said:
What you are suggesting is making Nurse and Spirit the only playable killers in the game.
Going for 12 hooks is completely unreasonable. Killers are, thanks to gen speed, forced to either tunnel, camp or slug. I like the idea of shared hooks, but you have to work it around a more reasonable number, like 8 hooks. That's the number of hooks a good killer can reasonably expect to get against sweaty survivors without tunneling or camping.
With this in mind, make it so that the killer has to get 5-6 hooks before survivors start to die and it could be a good system.
Thank you for your suggestions! Although 8 hooks for the counter is what I said, I don't expect it to be the final product. The end goal of this idea is to make it so that the outcomes of all the matches are more consistent. Some killers prioritize hooks while others prioritize kills. With how the game is, you could have your first kill in three hooks, or not have any kills after 8 hooks. I think this problem makes balancing the game a lot difficult, which is why tunneling, slugging, and camping are strategies. With a shared hook counter, the number of hooks and kills you get are related to each other, which allows the devs to balance the game more effectively by changing the balance of loops between survivors and killers.
I personally don't think gen speed is the issue we should be focusing on. Forcing survivors to spend more time on a generator would actually make tunneling and looping more effective strategies, because they can't complete the gens as quickly if the killer camps, which leads to a 3v1 with more gen progress to complete. The problem that should be changed is looking at how much of the killer's time survivors can waste by looping. However, if loops are survivor-sided (like they are now), and the killer doesn't camp or tunnel, then we have the current issue where gens get done extremely quickly and the killer barely has time to get a lot of hooks in. On the other hand, if loops are killer-sided, then killers can get downs quickly, which means they can afford to camp and tunnel the first survivor and force a 3v1.
By making hooks and kills directly related, then most of the game would be spent as a 4v1, which means that devs can more accurately guess how much time generator progress is being completed across the entire game, which means they can adjust loops on each map accordingly. Your issue seems to be that gens fly quickly, part of the issue is that killers can't get hooks as quickly. If the devs just make it so that killers can end chases faster, then tunneling and camping become more effective strategies. So to resolve that, we'd have to make it so that tunneling and camping are bad options for killers.
If you still think my idea is bad or have any new concerns you'd like for me to talk about, please respond!
@mylesmylo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2004486#Comment_2004486
Yeah I dont fancy having the game lasting that long even as survivor lol
With the change I've suggested, games could go quicker by making changes so that the killer can down quicker, but also making it so that tunneling and camping make the killer lose progress.
Thank you for expressing your concern!
@SirCracken said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2004910#Comment_2004910
I think that forcing the killer to wait out an 8 minute timer is not the answer to deter tunnelling and camping. In a lot of scenarios such as survivors who go down next to 99'ed gens or after the exit gates have been opened, the best possible decision the killer can make is to camp them. The extended timer punishes them for punishing the survivors. Which I don't think is the way to go.
Instead, killers should be given some incentive to go after the other survivors. For the end game this can be as simple as being able to close the exit gates, forcing other survivors to either open it again or abandon their team mates. But in the early game I believe the killer needs some new kind of mechanic that activates upon hooking different survivors.
Perhaps suspending generator completion in accordance with how many hooks the killer has if someone is currently hooked? This would buff killers that would otherwise be weak because of their inability to get downs quickly by stopping the number of completed gens from reaching a certain amount of they hadn't gotten enough hooks.
For example: if the killer hooks someone for the first time after 2 gens have popped, chasing another survivor would prevent gen repairs from going over a certain percentage. Survivors would have to spread out their repairs until the killer gets another hook. At which point they would be free to complete another gen.
This idea certainly needs more refining. But what do you think of it so far?
A lot of great points here! I'll address them now.
If the killer downs a survivor next to a gen that's 99'd, then the killer is faced with the choice of camping or leaving to find and down another survivor. There are two reasons why the killer would camp, the first is that there's a gen that's nearly completed close to them and that they don't feel incentivized to find someone else because they can't down them fast enough. This change isn't forcing the killer to wait the 8 minutes for the survivor on the hook to die, it's meant to incentivize them to go and find other survivors to down. If the killer wants to wait until the generator doesn't have as much progression on it, they can do that. But keep in mind that generator regression is only a quarter a speed of normal repair speed (It takes 80 seconds to complete a generator, a nearly completed generator would take just under 320 seconds to fully regress). If the killer waits the 160 seconds for the generator to regress to 50%, then just one survivor alone could complete 2 generators.
To further incentivize killers to go for chases, I think making loops more balanced towards killer (but not in an overpowering way) is the way to do it. If the killer can get hook states faster by hooking rather than camping the hook, then it would be beneficial to go for hooks on new survivors. Also, because hooks are directly related to kills, a 3v1 won't occur until late in the game, and ideally, the generators are completed by then, and the killer has hooked everyone at least once.
Your idea is an interesting one, but I don't think it's a good idea to have the killer control how much progress the survivors can complete on generators. There are already several perks in the game that inhibit generator repairs like Pop or Ruin. Also, the killer could take advantage of that system by not hooking and slugging. And if the system was changed so that it counts downs instead, then survivors could take advantage of that by purposefully going down at pallets with a teammate nearby to go for the pallet save.
Great ideas, though! If I misunderstood what you were saying, please let me know!
@CLAUDETTEINABUSH said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2004839#Comment_2004839
You suggest survivors to be sacrificed only when all 4 survivors have been hooked up first correct? (8 hooks). If a survivor hides and they're never hooked, nobody can be sacrificed.
Unless I didn't understand correctly then I'm an idiot
Ah! I think you were mistaken. Survivors die when they've been hooked a collective total of 8 times, yes. But not every survivor needs to be hooked for the killer to be able to sacrifice people.
Let's say in a game with have Survivors A, B, C, and a Blendette who hides the entire game without doing gens and is never caught. Each survivor can be hooked multiple times without dying, as long as the hook counter doesn't reach 8. Let's say Survivor A is not as experienced as Survivors B and C, and so they go down more frequently than those two. Survivor A ends up getting hooked a total of 4 times. This happens because the counter hasn't reached 8 yet, so Survivor A lives past their third hook. Now let's say Survivor B was hooked 3 times, and Survivor C was hooked once. Now that the counter has reached 8, and Survivors A, B, and C have all been hooked once already, they are all now on their death hook. Even though Survivor C has only been hooked once, they are still on their death hook. Although this may seem unfair for Survivor C, keep in mind that the killer has had 8 hooks so far, which means that Survivors A, B, and C have completed 8 hooks worth of generators among the three of them. The survivors most likely won't be able to get much progression completed because only three of them are on gens, but the three of them get to play the game for about the same time even though Blendette is hiding.
As for the Blendette who's hiding in a corner, because the hook counter has reached 8, and she hasn't been hooked yet, she gets an extra hook state because of that, which means the killer needs to hook her twice before she dies. Although this seems unfair for Survivors A, B, and C who have been playing the game while Blendette has been hiding the entire game. Survivors A, B, and C will receive more blood points and higher rankings at the end of the match while Blendette will most likely depip and not break 5,000 blood points.
Although the idea is flawed, I think it's still better with what we have currently. If there's a Blendette hiding, forcing the other 3 survivors into a 3v1, then the killer could tunnel one of the survivors without much trouble to turn the game into a 2v1, which is impossible to win unless a survivor is a god at looping.
You're not an idiot, you just misunderstood, which is completely fine. I hope I was able to clarify what I meant for you!
@lagosta said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2004707#Comment_2004707
I believe that this is a deeper discussion between the devs and the community.
The hot topic and one that intertwines with this post is: what constitutes a win? The proposed changes skew the answer towards the 12 hooks instead of the number of kills. The only concrete info we have is provided by the in-game tutorial: Survivors need to escape, Killers need to kill as many as they can. But if you do either efficiently, you do not progress in ranks. If survivors fix gens and leave in 4 minutes no one pips. If the killer kill manages to down everyone in 4 minutes, no one pips either. That dichotomy is more a symptom of design changes that happened as the game evolved into something more than it was intended to.
If the game was remade today, I am certain many changes would be made to its core, or at least I would hope to. How would you change the game to make the premise of victory clearly delivered to both sides? There are many possibilities, my personal favorite would be:
1-Make each player in the Survivor Team select 3 different characters and 1 main to start the match, for a total of 12 characters in the team.
2-The 8 remaining survivors start the match trapped, inaccessible, and uncontrollable by any Survivor Players.
3-Hooking a survivor instantly kills that character, no questions asked, and the Survivor player goes idle.
4-Upon hooking, a limited duration trap key spawns on the floor by the hook. If the duration runs out, the survivor team effectively loses one active player.
5-Upon retrieving the trap key, any of the remaining caged survivors can be released and will be controlled by whatever an idle Survivor Player.
6-Idle Survivor Players can be rescued as a survivor character that belongs to someone else.
Hook counts effectively become kill counts, The killer can still camp the trap key to reduce the number of active players in a match, and the message of winning is delivered clearly to both sides as the number of casualties in the group of 12.
How emblems would be affected by this change is a great point. I agree that the current emblem system is flawed and needs changes. I have some ideas about how I would change emblems, but I think it's important to know how emblems work in the game currently. I will be referencing this link here which explains how emblems are earned between killers and survivors:
Emblems are a new Ranking Mechanic that was implemented with Patch 1.9.4 into Dead by Daylight . 1 Overview 2 Survivor Emblems 2.1 Lightbringer 2.2 Unbroken 2.3 Benevolent 2.4 Evader 3 Killer Emblems 3.1 Gatekeeper 3.2 Devout 3.3 Malicious 3.4 Chaser 4 Emblem Qualities 5 Ranking 5.1 Pip Conditions 6 Change Log 6.1 Patch 2.0.0 6.2 Patch 2.3.0 6.3 Patch 3.0.0 7 Trivia The Emblem System is a replacement for the Victory Cube for Killers and the old Bloodpoint-related Rank Mechanic for Survivors. A PHere are the changes I would make:
Survivor EMBLEMS:
- Lightbringer:
- No change
- Unbroken:
- Because survivors will be alive for about the same time, I would change this emblem to focus on how many times you've been hooked rather than how long you survive the trial. For example, if the hook counter reached 8 and the killer has hooked you 4 times out of those 8 (the killer has hooked you 4 times, not you have contributed 4 counts to the counter), then you should get a Bronze.
- In the current game, if the killer has tunneled you, you wouldn't get many points because your Unbroken emblem would be Bronze at best, and you wouldn't have many Lightbringer points because you weren't in the game for as long. However, with the hook counter idea, a tunneled survivor could still pip because they will last longer in the trial, which will earn them more Chaser and Lightbringer points.
- Benevolent:
- No change
- Evader:
- No change
KILLER EMBLEMS:
- Gatekeeper:
- No change
- Devout:
- Because with my change, kills coincide with hooks, I think no emblem to silver should be based on how much progress the hook counter has, and gold and iridescent should be based on how many kills you get (1-2 kills earns gold, and 3-4 kills earns iridescent, or something like that).
- I'm not sure how kills by Moris and Reverse Bear Traps would work with my idea, if anybody reading this has some ideas, please let me know!
- Malicious:
- I'd add it so that insta-downing a healthy survivor (like with a chainsaw) awards the same amount of points as hitting that survivor twice with a basic M1.
- Chaser:
- No change
Your 12 different character idea is interesting, but unfortunately, I don't think it would work. The killer could make it so that they hook survivors far away from where the idle survivors are. The killer could also camp the key or focus a survivor who has the key. And survivors would spend too much time picking up the key and going to a cage to unlock survivors.
On top of that, you could have different builds on each one that could counter specific killers or work great on different maps. If you're worried about Spirits, just have one of your survivors run Iron WIll and Quick and Quiet. If it's a stealth killer, having Sprint Burst on one of your builds would be great. It gives survivors too much power to have three different load-outs.
Thank you for sharing your ideas! If there's something I missed or something I'm not understanding properly, please let me know!
- Lightbringer:
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I see where your concern lies. Please read "Tunneling" which is under "How This Will Alleviate Some Issues". If you still think that tunneling is an issue, then read this:
Currently, if the killer tunnels one survivor the entire match and ends up putting the remaining three survivors in a 3v1 situation, then the survivors will have only repaired 3 hooks worth of generators, and can each be hooked three times. With the idea I've proposed, the remaining survivors will have repaired 9 hooks worth of generators, and can each be hooked only twice. This means that with the change, survivors will get roughly three times the time to repair generators before the first survivor dies, and the killer will have to hook each survivor 2/3 less. This still results in an advantage for the survivors, as their triple time saved trumps the killer's 2/3 time saved.
If this hasn't convinced you, please let me know!
@Zozzy said:
It would make it impossible to win
A tactic swf already use is to throw survivors with hook states to spare at the killer to keep them distracted.
You would need to reduce the hooks for this to work.
Part of this issue is the disparity between the number of hooks you get with the number of kills you get. I've addressed this issue in "Hooks vs. Kills" under "How This Will Alleviate Some Issues". If that section wasn't clear or if you still have the same concerns, then read this:
@WoopinAngel said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2004674#Comment_2004674
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2004707#Comment_2004707
Since you both share a similar concern, I'll try to answer your questions at the same time. You both bring up the fact that killers have a harder time at red ranks because of how survivor-sided the game is. I 100% agree with that, so to that address that issue, I'll do my best to explain how things got this way.
Let's assume that with how hooks work in the game currently, the killer will play in a way that gets them the most guaranteed kills. Let's also assume that loops are balanced fairly between killer and survivor such that on average, a killer will get 10 hooks (two kills and two people dead on hook) by the time all the generators are completed. If we assume that the killer will always be chasing a survivor, one survivor will be on the hook, with another going for the rescue and healing, that would leave, on average, one survivor's worth of repairs for the entire game. Let's also assume, for simplicity, that time spent traveling between generators among other things (hiding from the killer when he's close by, survs looping the killer close to a worked-on generator, the killer regressing gens) is canceled out by the lead survivors get at the beginning of the match.
This would mean that it would take about 400 seconds before all the generators are completed. Because we assumed that the game is balanced fairly between survivor and killer, such that the killer will get two kills and two people dead on hook by the time the game ends, then that would mean the killer, on average, would get 1 hook every 40 seconds.
Let's start the match. The killer gets their first hook with 360 seconds left to go until the last gen pops. After the killer hooks the survivor, the killer camps them. This is optimal for them because while they now only get 1 hook every 60 seconds, they only have to deal with three survivors after the 120 seconds are up. If the killer instead had alternated hooks between two survivors, then the killer would get their first kill after the 5th hook, which means it would take them, in our model, 200 seconds before their first kill.
Let's assume that while the killer camps the survivor, two people go for the save and stick around waiting for the killer to leave. Then the survivors would only have one survivor working on gens, which means after the 160 seconds the killer would have used up to hook the survivor and wait for them to die on hook, only two generators would have popped, leaving 240 seconds worth of repairs left to do, minimum. This would result in a 3v1 where one survivor is on the hook, another is going for the save and healing, and the last survivor is going down in 40 seconds. I don't have to explain why the killer would get the 4k here.
Next, let's assume that when the killer camps, only one survivor goes for the rescue and sticks around while the other two work on separate generators. Once the killer gets the hook, there will be 360 seconds left in the match. With the two survivors working on generators, they would get two minutes' worth of gen time completed by the time the camped survivor dies (assuming they work on different generators the entire time). Then by the time the two minutes are up, 240 seconds worth of gen time will have been completed, which leaves 120 seconds left in the match. This means, at best the survivors have two gens left to complete in a 3v1.
Although all the survivors could spend their time only repairing generators, by the time they need to repair two generators, optimally, at least two of them will be working on the same generator, which reduces each of their repair speed to 85% of its max. If the penalty wasn't there, then the 3 survivors could repair the generators after (120 seconds of camping * 3 survivors) = 360 seconds of gen repair. But because the penalty is in place, the survivors won't have enough time to finish the generators by the time the camped survivor dies.
Because this set-up makes it so that it's unfair for the survivors who want to try and play the game by going for saves, the devs make it so that loops are now stronger for survivors, which means that the survivors can loop for longer, which means more time to repair generators. Now let's say that the devs make it so that on average, survivors can loop pallets for an additional 20 seconds, for a total of 60 seconds. Now, after three minutes, the killer will secure their first kill. We assumed that the first 40 seconds of chase have been canceled out by travel time and various other things, but with the additional 20 seconds the devs put in, each of the three remaining survivors can repair a generator for another 20 seconds before the first survivor gets hooked. So by the time the survivor gets hooked, the survivors would have done 40 + (3 * 20) seconds worth of generators, which is equal to 100 seconds (Assuming that each survivor is working on a different generator). This means that there will be 300 seconds left in the match before the last gen pops by the time the first survivor gets hooked.
Now, if one survivor tries going for the save, while the other two fix generators, during the two minutes the killer spends camping, the two survivors can repair 240 seconds worth of generators, leaving 60 seconds worth of generator to complete, a little less than one full gen. Even though the survivors got loops buffed in their favor, this situation still isn't ideal. So the devs buff loops even more.
Now, killers can't down survivors fast enough to have an ideal match where the game ends with two survivors escaping on death hook with two survivors dead. So if people tried playing in this way, it's extremely difficult without some outplays.
With my idea of the hook pool, games will become more consistent, which means devs can balance them accordingly without killers having to camp and tunnel to secure any kills. With better balancing, MMR can be a more accurate portrayal of how well you fare in the game, which leads to being paired with better teammates. I went over this in "How This Will Alleviate Some Issues" under "Hooks vs. Kills".
Thank you both for your comments! If you feel like I haven't addressed your concerns, please let me know.
If you need clarification on anything or still disagree with me, please let me know why and I'll respond as soon as I can!
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@CLAUDETTEINABUSH said:
You have a really good gamesense, but I disagree with your idea entirely. Imagine if the survivors have a p3 claud that hides in bushes all the time, she's not even doing gens. That means that it's quite literally impossible to find her, the only possible way to do that is aura reading.
Now, a different example. A swf keeps messing with you while one person is doing gens. They're not afraid that they'll die since the one guy will be on the hook. Since survivors also have hook counters, your idea could massively backfire and reward stealth over good looping skills, so the game will basically become hide and seek.
In your first part, I'm not sure how this change I've suggested would lead to P3 clauds hiding in corners. If the survivors play stealthily for the entire game without doing generators, then no repairs would get completed. I might be misunderstanding what you mean here, but please let clarify for me if I did!
In your second example, if there's only one survivor doing gens while the other three members of the swf loop and bully, then the last gen would pop when the solo survivor finishes them by themself. If it takes let's say roughly 15 seconds or so for the solo survivor to move from one generator to the next after it pops, then it would take the surv (80 seconds of repairs * 5 gens) + (15 seconds of travel time * 4 times needed to travel) = 400 + 60 = 460 seconds to repair all five generators by himself, which is 7 minutes and 40 seconds. I think with only one person doing gens, this is a fair amount of time to get several hooks by the end of the game. You'd just need 1 hook a bit under every minute. which should be easy to do if a group of survivors is always close to you.
Also, the above example is assuming that the survivors don't loop you to where the solo surv is repairing generators, the game would take longer if the solo surv can't do gens because you're close by. Thank you for your response! Please let me know if I've addressed your concerns.
@Raptorrotas said:
Sooo. How is there pressure to leave a gen to rescue a teammate, or ATTEMPT flaslight saves or any other strategy/reaction, if that teammate isnt in any danger.
Everyone talking about killer behavior bit ignore that this concept would kill any survivor strategy except genrush.
I also consider deathgardens changes to the kill system a main reason for its demise.
Let's assume that nobody goes for the rescue because the survivor can stay on the hook for up to 8 minutes if nobody else gets hooked. The killer is still in the match patrolling generators looking for other survivors. If the killer manages to get another down before the first survivor can get saved, then the remaining survivors will be losing hook states twice as fast, because the first hooked survivor is still on a hook, and now a second survivor is on a hook as well. There's no way for people to complete the generators that quickly by the time both survivors die within 4 minutes, with the killer still looking for the other two survivors. If nobody goes for saves, then the hook count would stack up fairly quickly, with the survivors eventually being overpowered by the pressure the killer applies.
I hope this clarified some things for you!
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@Zaytex said:
The core problem is in how killers can't apply pressure easily, namely through massive maps or extremely strong loops tied together.
If you were to reduce the size of the maps to something relative to coal tower or father's campbell Chapel, then it would make it much easier to apply pressure since it wouldn't take an entire generator of time to simply walk to the other side of the map.
Also weakening the amount of safe pallets in the game and loops tied together would be beneficial, since it's brainless and would encourage more mind games at unsafe loops, which is more fun.
I don't think you could fix the issues of tunnelling or camping, they're part and parcel of the game and survivors do have perks to supplement a defence against them. Adding a shared hook counter wouldn't be satisfying since a weak link could literally get the entire team killed.
@Hex_Salt said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2004461#Comment_2004461
I appreciate the effort you've put into this and it's good to have people think outside the box. However the main concern i have is this is very very survivor sided. So what about the killer? Do you know how hard it can be to get 8 hook states at red rank? So now I have to get 8 until someone dies? What about ridiculous gen rushing? Even at a 3v1 survivors can still be optimal but now it's 8 hooks until any death? What about the sweaty 4 man SWF they already break the game is this gonna make it fair?
As I said i appreciate the effort and im not trying to be confrontational but please answer me this;
What's the incentive for me to play killer?
The love of the game- it comes and goes. And of late I'm getting impatient with the constant sweaty SWF
Balance- very survivor sided as is and nerfs to gen rush perks and combos don't help.
Higher BP than a survivor game- but is it worth the stress?
So, what's would my or anyone else's incentive to play killer be? Apart from increased stress levels and/or no longer playing as killer if this was implementation why implement this? Sure it'll help tje survivor side but having even less killers playing won't help it either.
Not including the low rank killers, facecamping or 'hard tunneling ' - aiming only for the unhooked and ignoring other survivor, as in going out your way to tunnel- ask yourself one question;
At higher ranks why does proxy camping and tunnelling occur??? What makes a killer do that? If 3 gens go in 2 minutes do you think I'm going to pkay by the survivor rulebook?
Maybe thats a question we should be asking ourselves
Since you both share a similar concern, I'll try to answer your questions at the same time. You both bring up the fact that killers have a harder time at red ranks because of how survivor-sided the game is. I 100% agree with that, so to that address that issue, I'll do my best to explain how things got this way.
Let's assume that with how hooks work in the game currently, the killer will play in a way that gets them the most guaranteed kills. Let's also assume that loops are balanced fairly between killer and survivor such that on average, a killer will get 10 hooks (two kills and two people dead on hook) by the time all the generators are completed. If we assume that the killer will always be chasing a survivor, one survivor will be on the hook, with another going for the rescue and healing, that would leave, on average, one survivor's worth of repairs for the entire game. Let's also assume, for simplicity, that time spent traveling between generators among other things (hiding from the killer when he's close by, survs looping the killer close to a worked-on generator, the killer regressing gens) is canceled out by the lead survivors get at the beginning of the match.
This would mean that it would take about 400 seconds before all the generators are completed. Because we assumed that the game is balanced fairly between survivor and killer, such that the killer will get two kills and two people dead on hook by the time the game ends, then that would mean the killer, on average, would get 1 hook every 40 seconds.
Let's start the match. The killer gets their first hook with 360 seconds left to go until the last gen pops. After the killer hooks the survivor, the killer camps them. This is optimal for them because while they now only get 1 hook every 60 seconds, they only have to deal with three survivors after the 120 seconds are up. If the killer instead had alternated hooks between two survivors, then the killer would get their first kill after the 5th hook, which means it would take them, in our model, 200 seconds before their first kill.
Let's assume that while the killer camps the survivor, two people go for the save and stick around waiting for the killer to leave. Then the survivors would only have one survivor working on gens, which means after the 160 seconds the killer would have used up to hook the survivor and wait for them to die on hook, only two generators would have popped, leaving 240 seconds worth of repairs left to do, minimum. This would result in a 3v1 where one survivor is on the hook, another is going for the save and healing, and the last survivor is going down in 40 seconds. I don't have to explain why the killer would get the 4k here.
Next, let's assume that when the killer camps, only one survivor goes for the rescue and sticks around while the other two work on separate generators. Once the killer gets the hook, there will be 360 seconds left in the match. With the two survivors working on generators, they would get two minutes' worth of gen time completed by the time the camped survivor dies (assuming they work on different generators the entire time). Then by the time the two minutes are up, 240 seconds worth of gen time will have been completed, which leaves 120 seconds left in the match. This means, at best the survivors have two gens left to complete in a 3v1.
Although all the survivors could spend their time only repairing generators, by the time they need to repair two generators, optimally, at least two of them will be working on the same generator, which reduces each of their repair speed to 85% of its max. If the penalty wasn't there, then the 3 survivors could repair the generators after (120 seconds of camping * 3 survivors) = 360 seconds of gen repair. But because the penalty is in place, the survivors won't have enough time to finish the generators by the time the camped survivor dies.
Because this set-up makes it so that it's unfair for the survivors who want to try and play the game by going for saves, the devs make it so that loops are now stronger for survivors, which means that the survivors can loop for longer, which means more time to repair generators. Now let's say that the devs make it so that on average, survivors can loop pallets for an additional 20 seconds, for a total of 60 seconds. Now, after three minutes, the killer will secure their first kill. We assumed that the first 40 seconds of chase have been canceled out by travel time and various other things, but with the additional 20 seconds the devs put in, each of the three remaining survivors can repair a generator for another 20 seconds before the first survivor gets hooked. So by the time the survivor gets hooked, the survivors would have done 40 + (3 * 20) seconds worth of generators, which is equal to 100 seconds (Assuming that each survivor is working on a different generator). This means that there will be 300 seconds left in the match before the last gen pops by the time the first survivor gets hooked.
Now, if one survivor tries going for the save, while the other two fix generators, during the two minutes the killer spends camping, the two survivors can repair 240 seconds worth of generators, leaving 60 seconds worth of generator to complete, a little less than one full gen. Even though the survivors got loops buffed in their favor, this situation still isn't ideal. So the devs buff loops even more.
Now, killers can't down survivors fast enough to have an ideal match where the game ends with two survivors escaping on death hook with two survivors dead. So if people tried playing in this way, it's extremely difficult without some outplays.
With my idea of the hook pool, games will become more consistent, which means devs can balance them accordingly without killers having to camp and tunnel to secure any kills. With better balancing, MMR can be a more accurate portrayal of how well you fare in the game, which leads to being paired with better teammates. I went over this in "How This Will Alleviate Some Issues" under "Hooks vs. Kills".
Thank you both for your comments! If you feel like I haven't addressed your concerns, please let me know.
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@yobuddd said:
Interesting, but I think it would really frustrate people who die on their first hook because the rest of the team blew through the first 8 health states.
This issue is addressed in "How This Will Alleviate Some Issues" under "Survivors Dying Before Other Teammates Have Been Hooked"! If the count reaches 8, then any survivor who hasn't been hooked yet will receive an additional hook before they die. If you still think there's an issue, please be sure to comment!
@Woot1234 said:
Perhaps not make it a pooled hook count but make it optional for survivors. Whoever is rescuing, If they are not on second hook they can transfer the hook count to themselves by pressing special ability button during the unhook. Killer should get a notification just in case they're keeping track of hook counts.
Just finding a way to make it so a crappy survivor doesn't pull down the entire team. I personally still dislike the whole idea.
Please read my post again! If you still dislike the idea, then please let me know!
@dezzmont said:
They tried this in Deathgarden.
It was, in short, a horrible horrible system that basically gaurenteed, along with a few other choices, that the game died.
See, it sounds neat, but the problem is that hooks as a shared resource remove all the tension from the snowball potential of killers. It turns out that while getting camped, tunneled, or whatever doesn't feel good IN THE MOMENT it actually is really really REALLY important to the overal experience of DBD, and removing it makes the game kinda braindead and removes most tactical consideration from the game.
Either a good survivor can carry and the game is just boring cuz the survivors always escape, or they can't so one anchor causes you to just flippin die.
You actually kinda want things in the game like 'the weak link gets eliminated' or 'the killer focuses weaker/stronger targets depending on how threatened they feel' because that creates like... an emotional arc and a relationship between the killer and individual survivors. Without that you get really lame interactions where the killer just constantly picks on the weakest player, and never has to feel threatened by the strong ones, and strong players feel unduly punished by weak ones.
The real problem with hooking and tunneling is something the devs talked about earlier when they discuss why they aren't going to nerf camping anymore: Killers NEED TO SNOWBALL. They NEED IT. They need to reach a point in the game where they hit critical mass and are disproportionately threatening the survivors.
Slugging and camping are SYMPTOMATIC of killers not having enough general pressure and not feeling rewarded enough by taking more dynamic playstyles. Fighting these is without addressing the fundemental lack of reward for killers results in killers just slugging or tunneling HARDER. If a killer doesn't think they will be rewarded with a player elimination on a realistic timeframe and that the rescue is too likely to come fast, they won't hook because slugs remove someone from gens longer.
So, paradoxically, if you want killers to camp less and slug less... you need to make hooks safer, easier to defend even if your not next to them, and generally HARDER to unhook people from. This is why camping was really rare pre BT-DS and pre swivelhook: The trapper could literally trap the unhook spot meaning they got a giant warning the unhook was happening, and the survivor who was injured would be easy to win a chase vs again, so they could roam anywhere on the map and not lose too much tempo to an unhook. As more and more unhook tools were added this became less and less true, and 'slug metas' develop any time unhooking is too strong.
So, you want less camping? Give the killer a tempo based perk that rewards them for letting you unhook. Or even better? Add it to basekit. We have 'anti-camp' rewards right now in the form of Devour Hope, BBQ (Which also is well designed because it tells you when defending the hook is a good idea), and Make your Choice, and none of them address the core problem with hooks, which is they are generally a major tempo loss. Something as simple as 'If a survivor is unhooked outside your TR, all survivors repair slower for X seconds' would do a LOT to make killers less dependent on converting any hook or down into two and would make winning lots of chases rather than playing very defensively around downed and hooked survivors a lot more valid a playstyle for killers that aren't able to insta-win chases like Nurse or Spirit.
Thank you for your input! You make lots of great points I haven't thought of but am happy to address!
If the survivors want to leave the weak link on the hook until they die, that's completely fine. My idea wasn't meant to encourage going for saves, rather to stop situations where the killer could force a 3v1 by their third hook. Personally, I don't like the idea of the weak link getting eliminated early because it forces the 3v1 situation. I've mentioned this in the post, and unless a survivor is a god at looping killers, 3v1s usually end with the killer getting a 4k very easily. Also, if the weak link kills themself out of frustration by not struggling after failing the escape attempts, then they will die, but not add an additional hook to the hook counter.
I agree with you that killers need to have the confidence to be able to perform well. But I don't think forcing them in situations where they have to camp and tunnel is the way to do it. The game should be balanced in a way where the killer can threaten survivors without having to camp. You mention a lot that because killers don't have that confidence to be rewarded by going for downs on different people, they end up slugging or tunneling. A huge part of this issue you've brought up is that matches are too random to be balanced properly. I think the rest of your concerns are addressed in "How This Will Alleviate Some Issues" under "Hooks vs. Kills". There, I talk about how it's difficult for the devs to balance the game because of the huge disparity between how games go.
Thank you for your comment! Please give my post another re-read and let me know if you have something else you'd like to mention!
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@RepostRiposte said:
Do I have to pay $4.99 for expansion pass DLC?
You don't have to, if you save up iridescent shards, the new killer and survivor will cost 9000 shards each! This will take some time, but if you don't want to spend the money on them, you can save up shards. Please keep future responses related to what I posted!
@lagosta said:
The idea sounds interesting, but I might have some concerns:
1-At the moment killers tend to search and find the weakest link in the group to focus, remove, and make the match a 3v1. How would the change solve the issue with a killer focusing on the weakest player to eat the most amount of team hooks?
2-How do you think a team composed of the average DBD players with a shared hook resource pool would address an inexperienced team member dipping too much into that communal resource?
3-How do you think the average first hook suicidal teammates would dip into that resource while trying to leave the game?
Thank you for commenting! I'll address your concerns right now:
1: Addressed in "How This Will Alleviate Some Issues" under "Tunneling". Currently, if the killer tunnels one survivor the entire match and ends up putting the remaining three survivors in a 3v1 situation, then the survivors will have only repaired 3 hooks worth of generators, and can each be hooked three times. With the idea I've proposed, the remaining survivors will have repaired 9 hooks worth of generators, and can each be hooked only twice. This means that with the change, survivors will get roughly three times the time to repair generators before the first survivor dies, and the killer will have to hook each survivor 2/3 less. This still results in an advantage for the survivors, as their triple time saved trumps the killer's 2/3 time saved.
2: A strategy I've thought up of is only saving the inexperienced survivor just before they advance the counter. I agree that saving that one survivor too early will cause them to dip too much into the pool, but doing gens while they're on the hook and saving them before they can advance the count, saves you and the team time. Also, keep in mind that if the killer doesn't hook you before the count reaches 8, they'll have to hook you an additional time.
Also, although an inexperienced survivor may try to escape from the hook and cost the team an additional hook count, that's a mistake they can only make once per trial until they realize how bad it is.
3: THANK YOU FOR MENTIONING THIS! I completely forgot to mention this in my post and will edit it after I've finished responding to comments. If a survivor is continuously pressing the struggle key, then after a minute, they will continue to struggle and also increase the count by 1. If the survivor lets go of the struggle key, then they will die without adding additional counts to the hook count. (If a survivor is caught first and kills themself on hook ASAP, then they will have only increased the hook count by 2 out of the total 8).
Great points! Hopefully this clarifies some things for some people. Thank you for commenting! If you see anything else flawed, please comment them!
@SirCracken said:
I'm argue against this with a reminder of the last game that tried this; Deathgarden.
Among a lot of reasons the game was sadly killed off was the shared life that the runners had. If even a single weak team mate was found then the hunter would capitalize and damage the entire team as a result. With dbd's match making this problem would only be made worse.
I don't think this system should be implemented.
I'm not too sure how Deathgarden works. I remember when it came out and it died after a week or two of its release, but I never actually played it. If you could remind me how the collective counter worked in that game in comparison to my complete idea, that would be great!
@bm33 said:
I've had so many matches where a weak teammate is taken out early and the rest of us are able to escape having only used one or two hooks. This is especially true when that survivor was one to run killer at gens teammates are working on. If that teammate survived they could use up all the communal hooks and screw over the rest of the team later on as well as just be a hinderance for the time they remain in the match because they now have more than 3 hooks.
Maybe this would be good for 4SWF but not so much for solo players.
Thank you for your concern! My idea for a hook counter has a bit more to it than what I think you have in mind. Please read the 5th paragraph under the section "My Suggestion". Thank you for your comment!
@Zeus said:
I like the idea but it punishes good players for getting teamed with much casual ones more than it already does now. Now imagine if this happens to them every game and then their MMR drops significantly to a point where MMR isn't just reliable anymore.
Please read my finished idea once more! Do you still have these concerns now that you can read my final idea?
@PanicSquid said:
No, this would ruin the game. Having to get 9 hook states before the first survivor can die is pretty unrealistic.
I've been playing this game for three years. Currently, I have 3674 hours on the game with every killer Prestige 3 lvl 50, with most of them having all the perks at tier 3. I try to play the game where I have to hook each survivor twice before I get a kill. In the vast majority of my games, I'll get my first kill on my 9th hook. Sure, I won't always get the 4k, but playing this way makes the game fun for both me and the survivors. I don't think it's unrealistic to pull this off, but I still appreciate you sharing your concern!
@KingFrost said:
It'd encourage tunneling if anything.
Please read "How This Will Alleviate Some Issues" under "Tunneling"! If you still have these concerns please let me know!
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I finished my post! I'll be responding to your guys' comments now. Thanks to all of you who have responded!
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This could be a connection issue on either your part or the host's part. Try playing in a public match, if the issue persists, then it might be your connection or you're playing on too high settings for your PC to run.
Also, for the log, I'm pretty sure it's encrypted so that the player can't read it. The dev team should have the key to decrypt it so that only they can read it. Be sure to attach the log to your report anyway as it may contain important information!
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@Blueberry said:
Exhaustion perks basically went from completely busted op to just normal busted.
Not only do Exhaustion addons not need to be changed but I'd even argue there should be more Exhaustion addons for other killers or the Exhaustion perks need further tuning down.
Current Exhaustion perks are literally a second chance every 40 seconds for zero cost, downside, requirement, nothing. There's literally no reason you wouldn't always run an Exhaustion perk if you're trying to win.
The devs said they want perks to have some variation of cost, skill requirement etc.
Yes! I would love to see more Exhaustion add-ons for the other killers. Add-ons that only add Hemorrhage are pretty ######### since nobody really pays attention to blood while they're chasing someone.
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@Salty_Pearl said:
Buffs for PigRBT (Bold means that she really needs these buffs)
- RBT should kill a survivor if they jump through the hatch.
- Jigsaw Boxes need to be harder to search (skill checks need to be more difficult)
- Survivors shouldn't be able to get the RBT off if it's not even activated.
- Rules Set 2 needs to be added to her base kit.
Ambush
- Terror Radius and Red Stain need to disappear immediately when crouching
- Combat Straps needs to be added to her base kit.
- Either make her faster when in ambush or increase the time she's charging.
Rework Amanda's Secret, and Amanda's Letter.
(This is from another thread of mine to change Amanda's Secret)Removes the charging sound of The Pig's ambush. (the lion roar will be removed but Amanda's scream would still be heard)
- Moderately increases the Ambush Attack charge time.
- When a survivor is downed from the Ambush Attack, all other survivors' auras are revealed to you for 5 seconds.
- Stacks
Love,
A Pig MainI agree with mostly everything you said, I just want to add a few things
I agree with you that the current Rules Set 2 should be added to her base kit, especially since on most maps, most of the boxes are in obvious places (Literally on the top of a hill in some cases with the older maps), not to mention that they make noise. I also have an idea for how Rules Set 2 could be changed:
- Rules Set 2 (Ultra Rare Add-on):
- After a generator is completed, triggering the Reverse Bear Trap, each subsequent completed generator removes 30 seconds from the timer.
I'm not sure if 30 seconds is too much (again, consider that this is an ultra rare,) but I think having an add-on that penalizes continuous progression of generators would be a great idea, especially since it could come off as a surprise since survs won't know if you're running it.
For the base box skill check, I think it's fine. What would be nice if there were add-ons that increased the difficulty of the bear trap. Right now, we only have add-ons that increase the probability of triggering a skill check and increasing the penalty of failing a skill check.
- Workshop Grease (Common Add-on):
- Slightly increases the Skill Check trigger odds when interacting with a Jigsaw Box.
Slightly increases the difficulty of a Skill Check when interacting with a Jigsaw Box.
Razor Wires (Uncommon Add-on):
- Moderately increases the Skill Check trigger odds when interacting with a Jigsaw Box.
Slightly increases the difficulty of a Skill Check when interacting with a Jigsaw Box.
Interlocking Razor (Rare add-on):
- Tremendously increases the penalty of failed Skill Checks on Jigsaw Boxes.
Moderately increases the difficulty of a Skill Check when interacting with a Jigsaw Box.
Maybe making it so that these add-ons also make the skill checks harder as well as what they already do would benefit the Pig.
Ambush:
I think that your ideas with Ambush are great; the devs should increase the speed at which her terror radius and red stain disappear, like what they did with the Wraith in a previous patch. -
@Salty_Pearl said:
Buffs for PigRBT (Bold means that she really needs these buffs)
- RBT should kill a survivor if they jump through the hatch.
- Jigsaw Boxes need to be harder to search (skill checks need to be more difficult)
- Survivors shouldn't be able to get the RBT off if it's not even activated.
- Rules Set 2 needs to be added to her base kit.
Ambush
- Terror Radius and Red Stain need to disappear immediately when crouching
- Combat Straps needs to be added to her base kit.
- Either make her faster when in ambush or increase the time she's charging.
Rework Amanda's Secret, and Amanda's Letter.
(This is from another thread of mine to change Amanda's Secret)Removes the charging sound of The Pig's ambush. (the lion roar will be removed but Amanda's scream would still be heard)
- Moderately increases the Ambush Attack charge time.
- When a survivor is downed from the Ambush Attack, all other survivors' auras are revealed to you for 5 seconds.
- Stacks
Love,
A Pig MainI agree with mostly everything you said, I just want to add a few things
I agree with you that the current Rules Set 2 should be added to her base kit, especially since on most maps, most of the boxes are in obvious places (Literally on the top of a hill in some cases with the older maps), not to mention that they make noise. I also have an idea for how Rules Set 2 could be changed:
- Rules Set 2 (Ultra Rare Add-on):
- After a generator is completed, triggering the Reverse Bear Trap, each subsequent completed generator removes 30 seconds from the timer.
I'm not sure if 30 seconds is too much (again, consider that this is an ultra rare,) but I think having an add-on that penalizes continuous progression of generators would be a great idea, especially since it could come off as a surprise since survs won't know if you're running it.
For the base box skill check, I think it's fine. What would be nice if there were add-ons that increased the difficulty of the bear trap. Right now, we only have add-ons that increase the probability of triggering a skill check and increasing the penalty of failing a skill check.
- Workshop Grease (Common Add-on):
- Slightly increases the Skill Check trigger odds when interacting with a Jigsaw Box.
Slightly increases the difficulty of a Skill Check when interacting with a Jigsaw Box.
Razor Wires (Uncommon Add-on):
- Moderately increases the Skill Check trigger odds when interacting with a Jigsaw Box.
Slightly increases the difficulty of a Skill Check when interacting with a Jigsaw Box.
Interlocking Razor (Rare add-on):
- Tremendously increases the penalty of failed Skill Checks on Jigsaw Boxes.
**Moderately increases* the difficulty of a Skill Check when interacting with a Jigsaw Box.
Maybe making it so that these add-ons also make the skill checks harder as well as what they already do would benefit the Pig.
Ambush:
I think that -
@Salty_Pearl said:
Buffs for PigRBT (Bold means that she really needs these buffs)
- RBT should kill a survivor if they jump through the hatch.
- Jigsaw Boxes need to be harder to search (skill checks need to be more difficult)
- Survivors shouldn't be able to get the RBT off if it's not even activated.
- Rules Set 2 needs to be added to her base kit.
Ambush
- Terror Radius and Red Stain need to disappear immediately when crouching
- Combat Straps needs to be added to her base kit.
- Either make her faster when in ambush or increase the time she's charging.
Rework Amanda's Secret, and Amanda's Letter.
(This is from another thread of mine to change Amanda's Secret)Removes the charging sound of The Pig's ambush. (the lion roar will be removed but Amanda's scream would still be heard)
- Moderately increases the Ambush Attack charge time.
- When a survivor is downed from the Ambush Attack, all other survivors' auras are revealed to you for 5 seconds.
- Stacks
Love,
A Pig MainI agree with mostly everything you said, I just want to add a few things
I agree with you that the current Rules Set 2 should be added to her base kit, especially since on most maps, most of the boxes are in obvious places (Literally on the top of a hill in some cases with the older maps), not to mention that they make noise. I also have an idea for how Rules Set 2 could be changed:
- Rules Set 2 (Ultra Rare Add-on):
- After a generator is completed, triggering the Reverse Bear Trap, each subsequent completed generator removes 30 seconds from the timer.
I'm not sure if 30 seconds is too much (again, consider that this is an ultra rare,) but I think having an add-on that penalizes continuous progression of generators would be a great idea, especially since it could come off as a surprise since survs won't know if you're running it.
For the base box skill check, I think it's fine. What would be nice if there were add-ons that increased the difficulty of the bear trap. Right now, we only have add-ons that increase the probability of triggering a skill check and increasing the penalty of failing a skill check.
- Workshop Grease (Common Add-on):
- Slightly increases the Skill Check trigger odds when interacting with a Jigsaw Box.
Slightly increases the difficulty of a Skill Check when interacting with a Jigsaw Box.
Razor Wires (Uncommon Add-on):
- Moderately increases the Skill Check trigger odds when interacting with a Jigsaw Box.
Slightly increases the difficulty of a Skill Check when interacting with a Jigsaw Box.
Interlocking Razor (Rare add-on):
- Tremendously increases the penalty of failed Skill Checks on Jigsaw Boxes.
**Moderately increases* the difficulty of a Skill Check when interacting with a Jigsaw Box.
Maybe making it so that these add-ons also make the skill checks harder as well as what they already do would benefit the Pig.
Ambush:
I think that the changes you mentioned would be great, especially a faster disappearance with your terror radius and red stain, much like what they did with the Wraith in a previous patch.