Looky_Here_93
Looky_Here_93
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@Seraphor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2383670#Comment_2383670
The only one there that's remotely similar really, is the Wraith.
Yes, he has a charge up and charge down animation (which is made up for by a speed burst after uncloaking), but Spirit also has a charge up, so it's just the charge down that's missing.
Wraith can use his power at any time, for any duration, but Spirit only gets 5 seconds without add-ons, and spends 75% of the time without her power available to use. This is the main reason why Spirit isn't at the top of the kill table, and why, despite all the cries from survivors to nerf her, its perfectly possible to escape from her and do just as well in a match against her as pretty much any other killer.
The next most similar killer after Wraith, is probably Nurse. Yes she's harder to master, but once you learn to account for the fatigue state, she is relentless. Her power recharges so fast, its just blink after blink after blink. Spirit doesn't get that, and no amount of practice will allow you to gain that much pressure with her. If you can successfully dupe her once, her power is gone for 15 seconds and she's a 110% M1 killer for that time.
That's her counterplay, duping her mind games, making her miss a hit when emerging from a phase. Do that and she's impotent.
Losing the ability to rely on mindgames, however much, is what would improve the experience of going against her. Her loop mindgames are such that the longer she just stands there, the more likely she is to win that mindgame. Limit it to 3 seconds, and she can't rely on it.
I think you have touched on a very valid point. While the Spirit doesn't have her power, she is just a 110% M1 Killer. This is what makes bad or even average Spirits much easier to deal with. If they consistently misuse their power, then they are essentially a slower, powerless Wraith, which makes them generally easier to deal with.
However, I think there is a flaw in your logic. First of all, "duping a Spirit's mindgame" has less to do with how a Survivor plays and more with how the Spirit plays (in my opinion). A Survivor constantly offers up audio information about their location (unless the run Iron Will) and can only change positions without leaving Scratch Marks by walking. If a Spirit player has a decent understanding of tracking via sounds, that combined with her inherent speed and invisibility means she can win most mind-gameable scenarios. She will either hit immediately after exiting Phase or will exit Phase close enough to be able to land a hit shortly later. Secondly, a Spirit doesn't have to use all of her power in any one given Phase. If she uses her power briefly, even for just 2 or 3 secs, that 15 sec cooldown is cut to something like 6-9 secs. So even if a shorter Phase doesn't result in a hit, the Spirit can generally recover fast enough to make another attempt before the Survivor can make it to a safe loop.
These two things together are what can make Spirit really unfun to go up against. If the Spirit player is slightly above average, can track via sound, and uses their power in short bursts, the Survivor can generally do nothing in terms of mind games or consistent counters.
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@TLuigi003 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2383649#Comment_2383649
Thing is, the power would still be unbalanced even if we could see it.
I'm not going to get survivors into the mix, I'm just going to compare her with other killers, specially those who their power let's them go fast.
- Hillbilly: Power takes longer to activate. Power has a light penalization when stopping (a great penalization if he bumps into something). Movement is restricted when using the power. His direction/position is visible
- The blight: Movement is restricted when using the power. Movement is heavily slowed down when exiting the power. His direction/position is visible
- The wraith: Power takes longer to activate. His power goes fast, but not as fast as the rest of this list. Exiting power is 2-phased with an slow and a fast phase. His direction/position is partially visible
- The legion: Cannot down survivors with power. Movement is slowed down on power exit. Their direction/position is visible
- The nurse: Her power is really hard to manage and can be heavily disrupted by breaking LOS. Slow speed at all times. Terribly slow speed a few seconds after exiting the power. Clear indications of her position and direction
- Spirit: Her power is not visible. She is not visible when using the power. She can go pretty fast while using it. She has no penalization when exiting the power. She has no movement restriction. She's not so hard to use. She can down using her power.
Spirit is the result of taking only the good attributes of the rest of mobility-based killers and putting them into a killer. Even best because all the killers stay visible at all times, except the wraith who is only partially visible.
Spirit debate reminds me of Pyramid Head debate. It's not even whether PH/Spirit are hard for survivors, it's that they're way better than similar killers. PH used to have no penalization for preparing the projectile, while similar ones like The huntress do have this penalization. PH was basically a more powerful huntress and that doesn't make a lot of sense. Thing is, PH was easy to fix, while spirit needs a full remodelation instead.
This is a neat line of thinking! I didn't consider comparing her to the other killers. And I think you have a bit of a point here. Spirit definitely doesn't have as many immediate penalties while/after using her power like most of the killers you listed but I think there are two aspects of the power that you may have not considered.
1) The Spirit can't afford to use her power for both map-mobility and chase ending like most of the other killers(at least in my opinion). Due to her requiring a completely charged power meter, if she uses it to transverse the map, she doesn't have it for chase and vice versa until it completely recharges.
2) Even if the Spirit dedicated her entire power to map-mobility, she actually doesn't get that far at base kit. As 7.06 meters/sec * 5 secs = 35.3 meters, that means a default Spirit traveling in a straight line can move a little farther than a standard 32 meter Terror Radius; and then she would incur a 15 sec cooldown where can't use her power for anything else.
Now of course, both of the above points can be mitigated with add-ons, but the negative aspects of the other killers could also follow suit. At least in my opinion, the Spirit's power was designed to be used primarily in chase, and has a secondary situational use for map-mobility.
Do you agree with this or disagree?
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@gilgamer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2383920#Comment_2383920
Its not super consistent but you can do it fairly easily if she is trying to do the "do nothing mindgame" which is why I say i'd be fine with making it an actual intended mechanic instead of it mostly just being the product of wonky animation interactions
Oooooooooh. Ok, I gotcha! I have heard something along those lines. I've heard it's more consistent than the Shards appearing on the Spirit's Husk, but hoping for a cue that only happens some of the time can actually misled you though. Your waiting for the animation "twitch" thinking the Spirit isn't Phasing, when she very well could be barreling straight towards you.
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@Seraphor said:
Showing where the Spirit is via scratch marks kinda defeats the whole point of her being, you know, invisible.
Her power is a stealth power, being invisible is the whole point. In exchange there's a significant cooldown on her ability, so she can't use it all the time, or for very long.
The main gripe people have with Spirit's power is the counterplay at loops. The 'mind game' that gives you a 50/50 chance of getting to the next loop, before she does it again.
I would simply give a time limit on the duration the 'husk' remains at the spot she started phasing. Have it vanish after 3 seconds, so that she basically gets a 3 second head start, and mind games are limited to 3 seconds long.
I don't know if I agree with that 1st point. I don't really think that her power could be considered a "stealth power." Don't get me wrong, you are undoubtedly right about the fact that it has stealth components, but the stealth component of her power wouldn't be completely removed by including the Shard Trail (at least in my opinion).
Let's do some math real quick. If the Spirit can move at 7.06 meters/sec while Phasing (at default), and there is a 0.5 sec delay before the Shard Trail starts appearing in the environment that the Spirit has Phased through, then that would mean that even if a Survivor was perfectly tracking the Shard Trail as it appeared, the Spirit could still be about 3.53 meters away (in any direction) from the latest cluster of Shard Trail. While this would give the Survivor a definite idea of where the Spirit has been, I don't think a Survivor could definitively know where the Spirit is in real time. That would (in theory) open up the opportunity for mind games, because the Survivor must guess what the Spirit is going to do, based off of how she has moved while in Phase moments before. What do you think of this?
Also, I really like that idea of the husk fading after a short duration! Would the 3 sec "Husk duration" start when the Spirit starts charging her power, or would it start after she begins moving while in Phase? The reason I ask is because the math says that at default speed for 3 secs, the Spirit could travel roughly 21.18 meters before the Husk fades. That's almost the entire default Terror Radius of the Spirit. Wouldn't that be too much of a head start?
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@gilgamer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2383868#Comment_2383868
Well currently you can tell if spirit is phasing fairly consistently by her animation but you could also just actually make her shards shine properly and obviously or maybe even make her shards retract or something if you want to make it even more clear but I think just directional sound ques while she is phasing would be enough.
Really? I thought that the animation change was a debunked myth. Is there something in particular that cues you when a Spirit Phases?
Also that would be a nice and simple change! Although what worries me would be that while you know the Spirit is Phasing, you would still have no idea where she is. As I understand it, one of the main problems with Spirit right now is that good Spirit players can use the audio from Survivors to get an almost exact location, whereas Survivors get nothing. Do you think that directional sound ques (cues?) would be enough for Survivors to get an accurate idea of where the Spirit is?
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@Shroompy said:
While the shard trail may seem good in theory, I do believe it gives off a little too much information to the survivor
You also have the problem of some maps being able to blend the shard trails very well, like MacMillan or Ormond, maybe even tall grass would obstruct the scratch marks
I believe the best way to approach The Spirit is to give both sides the exact same amount of information. But of course The Spirit would have the upperhand because of increased movement speed
Here was my go at it: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/263326/my-attempt-at-a-spirit-rework
Oooooh! I gave your post a read and I got to say that I kinda like that idea. I wonder though if completely shutting off all sounds from Survivors might be a bit too much? What I would be worried about with your change is that since both sides have no sounds and no visuals (if the Survivor doesn't run) on where the other side is located, it would truly become a 100% guessing game for everyone. Even if the Spirit Passively Phased into view and saw the Survivor, that only occurs every 2.33 secs and I assume it would only last the briefest duration. Would that be enough to locate a Survivor and catch up to them with the nerfed speed and somehow land a hit?
But back to your reply. When you say that the Shard Trail gives a little too much info, what specifically are you worried about? As for the environment sometimes blocking out the Shard Trail, I thought that would be balanced out because those same environments could block out Survivor's Scratch Marks while Phasing. Lastly, I agree with your point that both the Survivor and Spirit should get information when Phasing, and that's what I thought I was suggesting. It's not exactly the same kind of and amount of information, but while the Spirit gets constant audio information from Survivors, Survivors get constant visual information (although slightly delayed) from the Spirit. What would you change to make this better?
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@gilgamer said:
I like most of that but i'll be honest as someone who doesnt play spirit and hates going against her, the scratch mark idea is kind of awful, and gives away way too much info.
Ok, so what your saying is that I went to far in the opposite direction? Whereas Spirit right now gives arguably too little information on when she is Phasing, this change would give too much information right? That's a fair point. I honestly was just trying to come up with some sort of indicator that would let Survivor's now she is using her power.
So what about the Scratch Marks, in your opinion, would give the Survivor too much info? Is there anything in particular you think the Survivor shouldn't be able to see/figure out?
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@Trwth said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2314568#Comment_2314568
I wrote it like so in a past thread:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/P4TUFQLPYKYF/7b5bf436-3de9-45d4-baa7-33d338a21fbc.jpeg
Specify that the condition is damage, not just successful hits. They’ve done it with old Zanshin Tactics, so it’s possible.
OOOOOOH! That certainly sounds interesting. I actually really like that idea, especially the concept of the Entity breaking dropped Pallets for you. I see you incorporated past Perk mechanics like Spirit Fury (breaking the Pallets) and Zanshin Tactics (the activation/deactivation trigger). Would you happen to have made other Perk/Power change suggestions? I would like to read them if you have.
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@Bran said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2314344#Comment_2314344
no problem;
- i think reducing sprint burst upon basic attack will have unforeseen consequences that will render the perk a lot more powerful than it should be for what it's suppose to do (which is to block pallets from being dropped). or cause more grievances.
- this as i said is debatable (disregarding #1). this could work given the perks short radius, allows a better chance for a chase. i was thinking more of the effect it will have with save the best for last. (i like the idea though).
- i may absolutely hate pallets, but disallowing survivors to throw them down until blood favor is cleansed will lead to backlash due to undying or thrill of the hunt combos.
- the perk is useless without unused pallets, so a buff like this can give more meaning into it, since it can hurt and help the killer depending if its on cooldown or not (referring to breaking pallets or not).
- a buff to range and duration opens more possibilities. the killer can avoid being looped from an upcoming loop that the survivor is running to rather than just the one they are currently at. also it'll just allow better chases in general.
- (bonus) i think it could be better converted to a regular perk (same feeling toward crowd control). i just feel like some hexes are made just to have more hexes in the game.
Ah, I see! Those are some fair points. I think I was trying to come up with powerful effects to give Blood Favor that could be justified with "Well it's a Hex Perk so it needs to be powerful so it has an effect before it's cleansed." But with perks like Undying and Thrill of the Hunt, especially on some of the bigger or indoor maps, dealing with Totems can be a huge pain. There definitely needs to be a lot of care when changing a perk like Blood Favor, since its whole focus is removing one of the go to resources for Survivors. Wouldn't want it to be needlessly oppressive.
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@Trwth said:
I wouldn't give it too much stuff to the point it's confusing and conflicts with existing perks like STBFL. The core issues with Blood Favor is that it demands much of the Killer for a mundane reward. So, remove the basic attack requirement and cooldown, as being a hex compensates for its strength. Buff its range, possibly to match the Killer's terror radius for extra maneuverability, and duration a bit. Lastly, reveal the auras of blocked pallets so the Killer can zone the Survivor into those pallets. It may not be as strong as, say, Crowd Control, but at least I could see it being more useful outside of meme builds.
That certainly sounds interesting, but if you remove the Basic Attack requirement, what would trigger the perk? Any damage to the Survivor's Health State, including "special attacks"?
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@Kees_T said:
There's only 2 fair and balanced options:
- Keep it as hex perk but remove the cooldown
- Remove as a hex perk but keep the cooldown.
I honestly don’t know if that would be enough though. While I definitely agree that making the perk not a Hex or simply removing the cooldown would help make the perk stronger, I still think that its effect is what holds it back the most at the moment. Holding down all Pallets within 16 meters for 15 secs isn’t very useful in most situations, in my opinion. Survivor’s would simply run to unaffected loops with the On-Hit Sprint or would loop a window until the 15 secs elapses. The major problem here is that unlike Bamboozle, which doesn’t give the Survivor a speed boost to an unaffected loop when used, Blood Favor requires a Basic Attack. Plus, I’m afraid that if Blood Favor was made an effective perk that isn’t a Hex, than a lot of Killers would simply run it alongside Bamboozle to completely shut down all the main options for Survivors. I think the actually effect of Blood Favor needs a buff to justify the Hex nature of the perk, rather than just removing the cooldown. Do you agree or disagree with this?
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@Bran said:
- unfair
- debatable
- no.
- good
- good
- (bonus) make it into a normal perk similar to bamboozle.
I noticed that you responded negatively to the first three proposed changes, which are undoubtedly the stronger suggestions, but responded more positively to the last two options. If you don’t mind me asking, what makes you think these options are unfair or not good? I would love to hear your opinion!
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@MementoMori_Massacre said:
Since the last change to the clown when they added these ‘antidote’ bottles, I can’t say I’ve actually found any good use for them.
I’d prefer if they revert back to the way he was before with only the original tonic bottles.
I agree with you on that. As the Clown is now, I have difficulty utilizing the Antidote bottles as effective speed boosts. However, I have an idea I would like to bounce off of you. If the gas clouds for both the Tonic and the Antidote were allowed to linger for longer, than perhaps the Tonic clouds could be used as “traps” and the Antidote clouds could be used as “bait.” For example, let’s say that as the Clown you’re in a game on the Shelter Woods. You have recently broken a pallet on one of the “rock loops” that can spawn on that map. After breaking the pallet, you through down an Antidote gas cloud, and leave before triggering the Invigorated effect on yourself. Now, if another Survivor who you are in a chase with gets close to that broken “rock loop”, they may be tempted to enter that loop to get a speed boost. Even if the Survivor does get the boost, if the Clown is right behind them and gets the boost as well, then no distance will be lost AND the Clown will have effectively corralled the Survivor away from a potentially safer area. What do you think of this idea?
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@Devil_hit11 said:
Bad idea. whenever survivor is affected by tonic, they scream. Stealth concepts like.. oblivious do not work with killers that constantly reveal the position of a killer. Clown does that. Antidote already gives clown utility(speed). Its just too situational to use due to activation time. Reload 3->2 is a yellow add-on called Thick Cork Stopper. None of these change proposed affect generator progression or Tracking.
Those are fair points that you bring up, so allow me to explain myself.
Firstly, I did not think that the Survivor Screaming Noise Notification was visible to other Survivors when playing the Clown. It is when you play Doctor, I know, but I’m pretty sure that as a Survivor you only hear a map wide scream when another Survivor is Intoxicated. Additionally, if the Tonic clouds lasted long enough to act as traps, then a Survivor screaming doesn’t necessarily mean that the Clown is right by them.
Secondly, I understand that the Antidote already provides utility in the form of a speed boost, but this speed boost is quite minimal, as it’s only 5 seconds of a 10% inc. to movement speed. I suggested the dec. to reload time as an additional utility on top of the speed boost because I foresee this bottle being used primarily as a way to recover distance and time after using 3 of the 4 bottles to set up Tonic gas traps. Also, the DBD wiki says that the Cork Stopper Add-On only dec. the time by 0.5 secs. Is this wrong?
Thirdly, I know that nothing in the suggested changes slows gen progression speeds, and that was done on purpose! As a general rule, the DBD Devs and Survivor Players find that Killer powers that slow down generators are unfun, especially when they are combined with slow down perks. I mean, think about how oppressive and unfun it was to play against “Forever Freddy.” What I wanted to slow down was progression of the game as a whole by providing a choice for Survivors who come across a Tonic gas cloud outside of chase. If a Survivor finds a generator that is covered in the Tonic gas cloud, they have a couple of options. Wait for the gas to dissipate on its own, which could take up to 45 secs, which is precious time wasted. They could leave that gen and try and find another gen, which also uses up time and leaves that gen vulnerable to being broken by the killer and start regressing. They could enter the Tonic gas cloud, getting rid of the hazard, but revealing their location with a scream and becoming vulnerable due to oblivious. (It is this last option that I believe can be used for tracking. If a Clown throws down a Tonic gas cloud in an area, than for 45 secs, they know if a Survivor moves into that area via the Scream notification… unless the Survivor is running Calm Spirit. Calm Spirit would do to the Clown what it does to the Doctor.)