TLuigi003
TLuigi003
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@Seraphor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2383670#Comment_2383670
The only one there that's remotely similar really, is the Wraith.
Yes, he has a charge up and charge down animation (which is made up for by a speed burst after uncloaking), but Spirit also has a charge up, so it's just the charge down that's missing.
Wraith can use his power at any time, for any duration, but Spirit only gets 5 seconds without add-ons, and spends 75% of the time without her power available to use. This is the main reason why Spirit isn't at the top of the kill table, and why, despite all the cries from survivors to nerf her, its perfectly possible to escape from her and do just as well in a match against her as pretty much any other killer.
The next most similar killer after Wraith, is probably Nurse. Yes she's harder to master, but once you learn to account for the fatigue state, she is relentless. Her power recharges so fast, its just blink after blink after blink. Spirit doesn't get that, and no amount of practice will allow you to gain that much pressure with her. If you can successfully dupe her once, her power is gone for 15 seconds and she's a 110% M1 killer for that time.
That's her counterplay, duping her mind games, making her miss a hit when emerging from a phase. Do that and she's impotent.
Losing the ability to rely on mindgames, however much, is what would improve the experience of going against her. Her loop mindgames are such that the longer she just stands there, the more likely she is to win that mindgame. Limit it to 3 seconds, and she can't rely on it.
Wraith is still somewhat visible while using his power, which spirit is not. Of course it's possible to escape from her, it's possible to escape from any killer. As it was possible to escape from old PH, but he still needed some adjustments. "It's possible to win" is a poor argument when discussing mechanics, because it always is. It was possible to win against old brand-new-part (insta-repair a gen), It was possible to win against an old-old mori (the one which didn't require any hooks)
It's just that she's both unfunny to play against and low risk - high reward.
Nurse is actually good as an example and you won't see so many complaints against here because:
- Nurse need a lot of skill to master, if a nurse kills me I ack that she's really good, with spirit... She has good headphones, possibly.
- Nurse power is still both visible and counter-playeable (by breaking line of sight)
Your counter-play suggestion is making her fail the hits. Making a killer fail a hit usually includes Dead Hard, some random turns and 360s. You cannot use any of this techniques against a killer you literally can't see, and even if you could, 360s/turns don't work unless the killer has low framerate, plays with controller, and/or it's completely new to the game. And DH's 0.5 seconds invulnerability is not suitable when you don't know when she will attack (and skilled killers will play around DH anyway). The counter-play to the wraith it's actually the same to any other killer, mind-gaming(with data, not rolling a dice like with spirit), just a bit harder.
@Looky_Here_93 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2383670#Comment_2383670
This is a neat line of thinking! I didn't consider comparing her to the other killers. And I think you have a bit of a point here. Spirit definitely doesn't have as many immediate penalties while/after using her power like most of the killers you listed but I think there are two aspects of the power that you may have not considered.
1) The Spirit can't afford to use her power for both map-mobility and chase ending like most of the other killers(at least in my opinion). Due to her requiring a completely charged power meter, if she uses it to transverse the map, she doesn't have it for chase and vice versa until it completely recharges.
2) Even if the Spirit dedicated her entire power to map-mobility, she actually doesn't get that far at base kit. As 7.06 meters/sec * 5 secs = 35.3 meters, that means a default Spirit traveling in a straight line can move a little farther than a standard 32 meter Terror Radius; and then she would incur a 15 sec cooldown where can't use her power for anything else.
Now of course, both of the above points can be mitigated with add-ons, but the negative aspects of the other killers could also follow suit. At least in my opinion, the Spirit's power was designed to be used primarily in chase, and has a secondary situational use for map-mobility.
Do you agree with this or disagree?
I agree, that's why I said spirit needs a huge rework to be fixed. I don't know the solutions I just stated the problems which are two.
- Playing against her is like playing dice, no info just guesses. That is something your proposal attempts to fix
- Her power comes free while similar powers do not. This is harder to fix. And it's due to the fact that her power is to be used in shot bursts, so she can't be punished each time she uses it or she would become a ######### killer. But not punishing her makes it a bit unbalanced too. This isn't as bad as the first point though
I also failed to consider the cooldown time but I don't think it's that relevant. 15 seconds are not that much in a chase and that's providing she doesn't wear any add-ons, which is weird for killers to do.
Spirit is a hard one and I expect devs and/or community can come with a solution, because randomly guessing with almost no data is not only unfair, but terribly un-enjoyable.
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@Seraphor said:
Showing where the Spirit is via scratch marks kinda defeats the whole point of her being, you know, invisible.
Her power is a stealth power, being invisible is the whole point. In exchange there's a significant cooldown on her ability, so she can't use it all the time, or for very long.
The main gripe people have with Spirit's power is the counterplay at loops. The 'mind game' that gives you a 50/50 chance of getting to the next loop, before she does it again.
I would simply give a time limit on the duration the 'husk' remains at the spot she started phasing. Have it vanish after 3 seconds, so that she basically gets a 3 second head start, and mind games are limited to 3 seconds long.
Thing is, the power would still be unbalanced even if we could see it.
I'm not going to get survivors into the mix, I'm just going to compare her with other killers, specially those who their power let's them go fast.
- Hillbilly: Power takes longer to activate. Power has a light penalization when stopping (a great penalization if he bumps into something). Movement is restricted when using the power. His direction/position is visible
- The blight: Movement is restricted when using the power. Movement is heavily slowed down when exiting the power. His direction/position is visible
- The wraith: Power takes longer to activate. His power goes fast, but not as fast as the rest of this list. Exiting power is 2-phased with an slow and a fast phase. His direction/position is partially visible
- The legion: Cannot down survivors with power. Movement is slowed down on power exit. Their direction/position is visible
- The nurse: Her power is really hard to manage and can be heavily disrupted by breaking LOS. Slow speed at all times. Terribly slow speed a few seconds after exiting the power. Clear indications of her position and direction
- Spirit: Her power is not visible. She is not visible when using the power. She can go pretty fast while using it. She has no penalization when exiting the power. She has no movement restriction. She's not so hard to use. She can down using her power.
Spirit is the result of taking only the good attributes of the rest of mobility-based killers and putting them into a killer. Even best because all the killers stay visible at all times, except the wraith who is only partially visible.
Spirit debate reminds me of Pyramid Head debate. It's not even whether PH/Spirit are hard for survivors, it's that they're way better than similar killers. PH used to have no penalization for preparing the projectile, while similar ones like The huntress do have this penalization. PH was basically a more powerful huntress and that doesn't make a lot of sense. Thing is, PH was easy to fix, while spirit needs a full remodelation instead.
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Thing is, behavior could fix this.
EAC has a native release for Linux and Unreal Engine can export to Linux
So there is no need for Valve to weird maneuvers and try to emulate the Windows version of EAC in Linux, possibly reducing the anti-cheat quality, when BHVR could use the native Linux version of EAC and everything would work properly.