Jakeroo
Jakeroo
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- Jakeroo
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Heck yeah! This would be great!
I constantly try new perk builds even though we all know the optimal builds just a personal challenge to keep the game fresh - it would be amazing to see actual reasons to run new perks, and putting it on this type of schedule where the devs don't need to worry 'what if we change this perk and it's too strong or too weak' because they can just change it again next month would be great for figuring out how to make weaker perks viable and stronger perks more fair!
100% on board!
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@LetsPlayTogether said:
You need to prevent Camping and Tunneling. Or make it at least easily countered. Rewards for not doing it doesnt solve anything.
BBQ and Chilli disagrees with you.
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I would advise against merging CS and IW: IW is already a very strong perk, I'd rather see another perk get buffed so that the number of viable perks increases and the meta becomes more interesting.
I think if calm spirit affected falling screams/grunts it would become reasonably powerful...
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@bm33 said:
I play Solo more than SWF. When I'm playing SWF I do so much worse than solo because my teammates are either my older brother who doesn't listen because I'm the younger sibling and/or my nephew who doesn't listen because he's a teen. More often than not they get me killed, and fairly early on in the match - especially the nephew, he loves sandbagging. They like to do the opposite or ignore anything I say and won't give updates like when a killer has stopped chasing them. If I'm running Kindred it's to help me because how bad they are at communication. I can't count the number of times they say they'll be going to grab someone off first hook only to see the poor random go to struggle because my SWF started getting chased by the killer and didn't say anything so I have to try and make it to the person from across the map - I pop Kindred on with them and can see if they are actually going for save before struggle hits. I've had conversations with others that have similar experiences when playing with their SWF. For us the killer is getting an advantage because our SWF is hurting us more than helping. It also explains why during the Q&A they said their stats don't show a significant difference between SWF and Solo survivor - there's plenty of SWF that are not coordinated at all bringing down the SWF stats.
I'm good with giving killers extra BP/rewards for facing an SWF because going against a coordinated one is rough. I'm not OK with giving killers advantages and SWF disadvantages, that's just punishing people for wanting to play with friends - and for stats to be close to solo there's obviously plenty of uncoordinated teams that'll be hurt if forced to have disadvantages.
I think I've been pretty consistent throughout this thread in saying I don't want to ruin SWF's fun, nor do I think all or even most SWFs are super competitive.
My gripe is that comms provide a potential hideously unfair advantage, and that's where my gripe ends. I don't want to nerf survivors generally, and I don't want to do anything more than what's necessary. I want to take care of the problem, and unfortunately that DOES mean non-competitive SWFs will suffer slightly... It may be callous to say, but I think the minor nerf of not being able to run object of obsession and letting the killer know there's a SWF in their lobby isn't extreme in the slightest, and moreover it's downright necessary if you want to prevent the most unfair matchups in the game - IN MY OPINION.
If you have counter-arguments or suggestions I'm happy to hear them, but the fact that some or even most SWFs are fine doesn't negate the real, crippling disavantage of playing ghost face against a SWF with OoO, or bringing in perks/addons the give blindness against people on comms.
so I guess my questions to you are:
1) Do you think the scenarios above are problems?
2) How severe do you think those problems are?
3) Most importantly: How would you suggest solving those problems? If I could think of a way to ONLY impact comms I would. I'd gladly push a magic button that said "everything about SWFs remains exactly the same except they can't communicate in-game knowledge to each other" - ALL of my problems with SWFs would vanish. If you have ideas I'm TOTALLY DOWN to add them to the list! They just have to solve the above problems to be relevant to this thread.
I'm sorry if this is a little aggressive - I'm SINCERELY not trying to be rude, but I have killers telling me I'm arguing for not doing anything about SWFs and survivors complaining that these frankly mild suggestions would kill the game and I'm just a salty killer main... Which, as I've said repeatedly, isn't true.
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@elvangulley said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1301935#Comment_1301935
So By everybody you mean just survivors well have fun when theres like 10 killers left in the game.
I feel like you're just trolling... I'm literally making a thread talking about nerfing SWF's because I think comms are a problem...
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@SurviveByDaylight said:
i definitely can’t say it’s survivor sided. In the red ranks killer wins most of the time. It’s a cesspool of Ebony Mori’s and tunneling campers 😂 EZ 4Ks. Every passing patch it gets easier and easier for them. Yet somehow.... we hear the same complaints. Gens are too fast, Whine about this loop where the survivor ran him for more than 5 seconds because if they don’t get their ez downs or ez kills complaints start rolling in.
I understand the sentiment - I play a lot of solo queue survivor and moris and face-campers are pretty frustrating to deal with... however, I'm really looking for data.
I'm moving under the assumption that the devs pay attention to win/loss statistics and balance accordingly: I don't think they'd just change half the maps involving a ton of dev time if they didn't see an issue... And I believe we're scheduled for a mori/key rework soon, which would be fantastic!
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@SpiritLover1133 said:
Its SWF sided.
It feels that way to me - at least when SWFs know what they're doing - but do you have any data? Again, I feel as though the devs would notice if SWFs were such a huge problem and aim to correct it... I could be wrong, but I hope I'm not...
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@sulaiman said:
I am a survivor main, and i say its survivorsided. I play both sides anyway, but survivor i like better and play it more.
But since the last patch i keep stats on my survivor games.
So far, i played 172 games as a solo survivor, and i survived 108 of them, which is over the usual survival rate.
The kill Rate in those games however was on avarage at 2,26 Kills per game, above the 2kill the devs aim for. I started keeping tracks of the maps only later, but can do a sum up if you want to.
What i found is that most of the 3k and 4k games resolve around camping/tunneling/mori, or around a very bad team after the rank reset, where the games where not so much won by the killer but lost by the survivors (like 2 people, me included, simply not saved from hook, people not doing gens ("i havent done gens for the last 10 games, and i am not going to" is a quote, hookfarming, and so on)
Thanks for the info!
And yeah - I forgot to include moris in my assessment... Honestly moris need a total overhaul and statistics involving them probably shouldn't be used to determine the balance of the game. When a mori is involved, the game is severely in the killer's advantage for sure... but it's 'in the killer's advantage' in the worst possible way.
Do you make this data available online anywhere? I'd love to have a closer look!
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@NursesBootie said:
Nope, just the same impressions as you. Billy is not a top tier killer imo. Nurse and spirit are the only truly viable ones.
I feel that... I think Billy is in a great spot right now: I feel that spirit is really boring to play as and really frustrating to play against, for nurse I think the rework put her in a great spot but she's still undeniably the strongest killer and in all but the strongest maps vs the stealthiest survivors she can take control of the game or lose it because of her plays, Billy is like nurse but where the survivors can outplay the billy no matter how well he plays the same can't be said for nurse, and the rest are in various levels of 'not strong enough in certain conditions'.
Which is a shame, because my favorite (and main) killer is wraith, who's just... really bad. XD
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Hahaha, it certainly feels that way sometimes!
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@The_Bootie_Gorgon said:
I want to see active survivor count and active killer count...
I want to see a LOT of the metrics of the game... I can only imagine that the reason we don't have access to that data is because a lot of people would complain the moment they saw a slight advantage to either side in any niche scenario, or possibly that a coordinated effort would be made to skew the data... But I really think a quarterly release of really detailed statistics could be very helpful!
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@stvnhthr said:
I hardly ever play SWF but when I do my friends online are young kids who actually make the game much more difficult because I have to carry them. I know when I play SWF I'm probably going to die and the game is going to be frustrating while I listen to young kids swear, make bad jokes, and listen to terrible music they got blaring in the background; so I only play SWF when I need some laughs and don't care about points or rank.
I have heard many killers complain about SWF. If I survive and do well killers instantly blame it on SWF; which has never happened in an actual SWF game; 99% of the time I play solo. I think there should be a SWF bonus given to killers.
One solution I thought might be interesting is if SWF games assigned perks randomly for one to all slots. This means a team would have to really communicate and learn to work well together because they would not be able to know which perk each player would get.
During matchmaking it would also be nice to scroll over each player and see what their escape/death ratio was it could also notate percentages of solo play vs SWF play. It would give you a bit of a heads up on who you were facing.
Thanks for sharing! I definitely grok that not all SWF groups are seal team 6 - and it's DEFINITELY true that a lot of killers blame SWF when the SWF wasn't the problem at all!
My issue in general is that comms can provide an unfair advantage that isn't accounted for in the mechanics of the game, and certain survivor playstyles and perks can be abused by using comms (namely calling out where the killer is at all times and/or using OoO), and that certain killer perks, powers, and playstyles can actually be fully negated by SWFs (things that block aura reading or trying to play stealthy killers when the SWF can call out your position).
I really don't want to hurt SWFs just because I'm salty and I CERTAINLY don't want to discourage them or make them less fun... An ideal solution will account for the fact that not all SWFs are on comms or trying super hard.
I think a randomized perk build would be a fun challenge mode for sure! However, I think forcing SWFs to use random perks may not be the experience most SWFs want, and may significantly hurt the player base.
That said, thanks for sharing! I'll add a randomized perk option to the list above. If killers do get info about a SWF, they should also definitely know whether a SWF is using randomized perks so they know that the group is just in it for fun!
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@elvangulley said:
disabled head on adrenaline borrowed time decisive strike flask lights med kits tool boxes in swf. You can play with your friends and you can abuse comms but thats it.
While I understand the sentiment, I think this goes too far into the realm of punishing SWF's rather than trying to balance them. I don't think it's reasonable to remove adrenaline, DS, or items in SWF groups and the only logic I can think of behind removing BT seems a little excessive - namely, 'this is a good altruism perk and you can use it better when you're coordinated' - we definitely don't want to remove every perk like that.
We want everyone to have fun: the game depends on SWFs providing content and not feeling like they shouldn't queue together. IMHO, as a solo queue survivor and killer player, I really dislike SWF as a concept... but it's a significant part of what keeps the survivor player base strong.
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@Ikalx said:
The suggestion I made when joining the forums (and the one that made me join the forums) was to add an aura perk slot for survivors that would be disabled in SWF. That way you could narrow the communication gap between swf and solo and be able to balance killer more effectively.
I think a lot of people don't run auras because they need that slot for something else and swf greatly lowers the need for them, so this might help them be on more even footing.
If we want to expand on the idea of restricting perks, though. You could potentially go the path of making the aura slot be the only slot to accept auras, and have that disabled in swf, but...that may bring its own troubles.
I like this idea. I'll add it to the main post shortly... it could pair especially well with the suggestion that hex perks should be their own slot for killers, that way you could have some parity between the groups. I don't think they'd implement either idea, but it IS a neat idea, and it would stop what I think is the most egregious perk abuse in SWFs: namely Object of Obsession.
Thanks for the feedback! <3
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@elvangulley said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1299419#Comment_1299419
And you will defend and unfair advantage that requires no skill. What am i talking about nothing survivors do or have requires skill.
I understand the desire to respond to vitriol with vitriol, but this really doesn't help. Most people playing the game aren't just 'killers' or 'survivors', and making a broad accusation against a significant portion of the player base is counterproductive to making this game better for everyone. I think survivor takes plenty of skill - I happen to think killer takes more depending on the killer you're playing, but that's just my opinion and it doesn't deserve to be treated like it has any clout, whether someone agrees or disagrees.
Try to keep it civil, man! Negativity doesn't help, even when it's directed at trolling.
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@1300 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1295113#Comment_1295113
Killers will cry about anything survivors do if it means they don't have to be better at the game themselves.
First off, I have over 3k hours in the game and most of that is survivor. So I'm not just a 'killer.'
Second off, the tone of this post is pretty negative. I'm genuinely glad to listen to your opinions if you just throw them out there with some evidence or rationale. I'd like to think I'm not just complaining - I believe I gave pretty strong reasons as to why SWF CAN BE a problem and some solutions that don't 'ruin the fun' for anyone.
Third off, I really don't think you can dismiss a significant portion of the player base by making this general accusation. It seems to come from a place of resentment rather than anything useful.
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If the killer knows where hatch is when it's about to open, camp the exit gates so you can start opening the second they close it - preferably the one further from the exit gate.
With that said, remember that this is a pvp game. If the killer has gotten to this point in the game, they've already done really well against your team. The best way to escape this situation is to avoid it in the first place.
GL in the fog!
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You can disable endgame chat for yourself... at the end of your next match, look at the bottom of the chat box and there's a little arrow. Click it and it's disabled in all future matches until you choose to enable it again. I'll grab a screen cap at the end of my next match.
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@Snowstruck said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1296609#Comment_1296609
Because killers can already see survivor usernames. It doesn't hurt to add it now, honestly shrug
I think it would hurt, though... for the reasons I specified in the post you quoted. Do you have any counter-arguments to those reasons? Again I'm glad to listen to them if you do - I'm often wrong... but until someone can demonstrate to me WHY I'm wrong I'll continue to be in the dark...
I've expounded on the points mentioned in the original topic below to make them more clear:
1) This doesn't seem relevant to the topic of SWFs, which is what this thread is intended to discuss. You may have some reasoning linking the two; if so, please explain. I'd love to understand and update my post with some new rules or edits to current ones... but if it's not relevant, this may not be the best place to bring this particular change up. (If it's not relevant, feel free to make a new thread and link me to it: I'll be happy to discuss it there! I feel rude for bringing this point up, but I really do want to talk about SWFs here...)
2) Since some players play certain killers exclusively or tend to binge certain killers on a given night, if you could see their username you'd have a guess as to which killer they were playing and could swap your perks/items/offerings/playstyle accordingly. Some killers can be totally annihilated with some preparation: Bring flashlights and urban evasion for hag, bring OoO for Ghostface, bring spine chill for myers (that one's not as bad as the others, but it will make him have an incredibly tough time getting out of tier 1), etc.
2.2) This is significantly less of a problem for survivors because seeing which survivor is picked doesn't tell you anything about their perk setup
2.3) This is also significantly less of a problem for survivors because the killer can't easily counter survivor builds: Most killers have a set of perks they need to run to be viable at higher ranks and can't swap out too much from that build, and even if they don't, the killer only has 4 perk slots to try and counter 4 different survivors.
3) Given that, per all my previous claims, SWFs already have an unfair advantage, talking about buffing SWFs in addition to buffing killers would potentially negate the buffs given against SWFs, which would be counterproductive... UNLESS the buffs to both sides were made to facilitate some kind of solution that would be untenable with a buff to only one side.
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@MiniPisa said:
The only perk I can think of that would be fair to disable would be Object of Obsession. It has a very unfair advantage with comms.
I agree. I've edited the original post to reflect this. Thanks for the feedback!
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@Snowstruck said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1295141#Comment_1295141
Well, for the BPS thing= That's also like saying survivors should get extra bps if they get slugged and die very early. It just doesn't make sense. You have to EARN bps..
And they shouldn't restrict perks because they are swfing. And lots of people (including me) swf without comms. There is no legitimate way to tell if they are communicating or not, guess I should of read that better.
Sorry for being hostile, I appreciate someone like you who doesn't lash out because their opinion is different from the opposing side.
Again, it seems like you're missing the reason WHY I think SWFs need special attention in the first place.
Imagine survivors could opt to play a game in which they get 5 perk slots and killers could not do the same. If a killer went against survivors using this option, don't you think they should get some additional rewards as compensation?
My argument is that comms provide more benefit that most information perks in the game combined, and do not take a perk slot. Therefore, killers should get some extra BP as compensation for going up against a team that potentially has an unfair advantage.
Your note about SWFs that do not use comms is why I've kept the suggestions in the initial post from being tremendous game-changers: I'm well aware that plenty of SWF groups aren't Seal Team 6, as I stated in the initial post. However, since we can't be sure which are on comms and which aren't, I think we should treat it somewhat like the DC penalty: If your router geeks out and you DC from a match, you still get the DC penalty because we can't be sure.
In the same way, I think letting killers know they're going up against a SWF and providing some additional compensation is a fair move, and one that doesn't affect the survivors in their match at all.
I believe before you raised a concern about going against SWFs making killers dodge lobbies: I've been keeping tabs on which people I'm playing against nare in at least a 2-man SWF for the past several games. Again, this is ALREADY something killers can do, it just takes about 30 seconds to do so, so you just potentially don't have any time to swap to a killer/build that can handle it.
What I've noticed is that more than 3/4 lobbies involve at least a 2-man SWF. If you want to dodge every SWF, you're not going to be able to play the game very often.
You'll also note that I put in there a potential penalty - similar to the DC penalty - for dodging several lobbies in a row. I said that because I want everyone to have fun, including SWF teams, but I really think getting some info ahead of time to swap out your build so you can play in a way that won't be totally useless against a team on comms will reduce the frustration the killer players have to go through when they realize that they've wasted a perk/addon/offering slot or picked a killer that just can't handle a team knowing where they are at nearly all times.
I really do want everyone to have fun. I promise I'm not just a salty killer main - I have over 3,000 hours in the game. I love it to death and I play both sides a LOT. I just really think something should be done to make going against SWFs less terrible, while not ruining the game for either party.
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@ItsBoe said:
So make the game even more killer-sided? Nah. There's plenty of perks that fight up against swf... Don't punish swf because the majority of killers act like babies because they get 'ganged up on' by survivors. It's a survival game. we're supposed to work together. Jfc. This post gave me a headache.
I don't understand why some people are being so belligerent here... I'm glad to listen to any of your opinions and their reasonings - including the opinion that SWFs are fine where they are... but your tone is really counterproductive.
My basic argument is this: Comms give SWFs a severe advantage. They're potentially better than the best information perks in the game and don't take a perk slot. Killers need an advantage when going against these teams, even if it's just letting the killer know that such a team is in their lobby.
In fact, you metnioned that there are perks to counter SWF's - great! Which perks? And in order for the killer to know to use those perks - and NOT to use perks that are totally useless against SWFs like knockout or Hex: the Third Seal, they'd need to know that they're going against a SWF, right? So are you in favor of #2 on the above list, to let killers know they're going against a SWF?
If you'd care to refute that or provide some alternative reasoning, I'm more than happy to listen... But I'd really appreciate it if you could take the scorn down a notch.
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@BattleCast said:
I think the best solution to the SWF 'problem' is to warn killers in the lobby that they are going against a SWF, and award a post-game bp bonus for facing a SWF.
You shouldn't be punished for playing with friends because not all SWF's are sweaty and toxic, but I see no issue in awarding the Killer for facing a SWF.
Noted and agreed! I said it in the main post but I'll reiterate: I definitely don't want to discourage SWFs or make them feel like they're guaranteed to lose if they group up: I want everyone to have fun, it just seems like SWF groups having comms is a pretty distinct and unfair advantage in the game right now. At the very least, we could let killers know that's what they're facing so they can play appropriately - for just one example, they could adjust their playstyle account for the fact that if one teammate sees them, all SWF teammates potentially know where they are.
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@Snowstruck said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1295141#Comment_1295141
And while being able to tell if it was a swf would be great, if they added that they would have to add survivors seeing killers usernames at least.
I don't see why that's the case... Could you give me your reasoning? I'm confused on three points:
1) I don't see how knowing the killer's name affects the fairness of SWFs.
2) This could potentially make the problem <i>worse</i> by potentially telling survivors which killer would be used (since some people, like myself, tend to play a lot of a single killer in a night) and letting them bring perk builds that counter said killer, which would totally skew the balance of the game even further into the survivors' hands... IE, if you know someone is playing a lot of doctor, you might bring calm spirit when you normally wouldn't just because you have more info ahead of time.
3) I can't read your mind, hence why I'm asking for a reasoning, but my gut suspicion is that this is something like "If the killer gets a benefit, survivors should get a benefit too," which doesn't hold if the premise of my post is valid. Namely, I believe SWF already provides a benefit to the survivors, so I think a benefit needs to be given to the killers to compensate. Adding a benefit to both sides doesn't help alleviate the problem of one side having an unfair advantage.
With that said, I'm definitely down to add that to the initial post if there's something I'm missing!
And I'll reiterate again, I'm not saying you definitely hold the mentality in point 3, I'm just guessing there. Feel free to correct me!
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Removed, other post went through making this one not necessary... unsure why this didn't post initially
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@Snowstruck said:
Imagine wanting to punish people for playing a multiplayer game with their friends.
I'm sorry, but if they did that, this game would die. If they wanted to punish swfs, they would've by now.
And if you are so scared of swfs, tunnel. I don't care if it's a d*ck move, and if they talk sh*t end game, oh well. You have to do what you have to do. Doesn't mean you have to hard tunnel, but tunneling is a strat, no matter how much people get mad at killers for it. If it works, it works.
Killers being able to see swfs would result in lobby dodging. That's like saying survivors should be able to see the killer.
Eliminating perks because people want to play with their friends is ridiculous, period.
If you want bonus BPS, you better not mean it counts towards rank because- no. Maybe if you beat the swf, you can gain bonus BPS. Otherwise.. no.
Hmm... Seems like my response to this didn't post ot the thread...
Suffice to say: I want both sides to have fun. I don't want to 'punish' SWF groups. I want to balance them... I think comms are worth a perk slot, and I think a lot of perks were balanced around not having them, so they effectively give you several EXTRA perk slots. A variant version of those perks seems fair to me.
I already provided my reasoning behind killers dodging.
I don't understand why you're opposed to a bp bonus for going against a SWF team... BP going towards rank? Maybe there's just a miscommunication here: BP = blood points. They don't count towards rank. I wouldn't advocate for any rank-related benefit or drawback for going against a SWF group.
I really resent your accusatory tone here. I'm presenting something I think is a problem and looking for solutions, not leaning in close and begging all my killer main friends to ask BHVR to make the game worse for survivors. If you don't think it's a problem, I'd rather you find a way to express that which explains your reasoning and isn't so hostile and dismissive.
But thanks for the feedback, nonetheless. I'll add 'Don't Change Anything' to the post, since that seems to be your view... but 'Just Tunnel' doesn't really solve anything as far as I can see.
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@NekoGamerX said:
game going to die anyway with no killers playing.
Seems like my previous post was lost, but: That's why this topic is important. I love this game and I want it to continue to exist for a long time... but since I've started playing killer I've realized what a difference there is between average survivors on and off comms. I want them to have fun, but I want to have fun too, y'know? Striking that balance is going to be difficult, but right now I feel that against evenly matched opponents, the killer can be made totally helpless against a SWF.
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@NekoGamerX said:
game going to die anyway with no killers playing.
Exactly why I feel like this topic is important! I love this game, but since I've started playing killer more than survivor I'm realizing that it's really not fun for killers on a significant number of game specifically because the game wasn't built around SWF groups being in the game.
I don't want them removed, that would kill the game.. but leaving them as they are now has some potential to kill the game as well. It's a tough position to be in, I just really like this game and want it to get to a healthier state.
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I feel ya, brother. I'm rank 9 killer now, but I logged my matchmaking when I was rank 13 through rank 11 and I got a total of 3 matches out of about 20 where I got a SINGLE survivor at or below my rank.
I wonder if the reason is because high rank killers are so rare that the algorithm basically has to put good survivors against less skilled killers... and I wonder if the reason that's the case is precisely because it's SO discouraging to play low-rank killer right now... And if that's the case, then no matter how much people would complain, it indicates that killers need a buff in general.
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@MiniPisa said:
That would be pretty funny, but i'm sure the T-Bagging suffices.
Well I mean, it suffices in that these aren't necessary... I just really REALLY want them. XD
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@Ikalx I get what you're saying, but a lot of people are AFK in lobby, or people might be switching out perks and items - and you're more likely to switch your perks and items when you can see what other people are doing... I think providing the option for people to quickly glance in the escape menu would be helpful... Certain killers already have to do this to play optimally, like Ghost Face: it's important for him to be able to tell which survivor is which name on the bottom of the screen when he's stalking... I think near the end of a match when someone's on the hook, hitting escape near the exit gate to see if it was a person who had DS would be really useful... and I don't think people are going to spend a significant amount of time in the escape menu memorizing who has what perks or anything.
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Addendum: The link mentioned when submitting a bug report 'click here for how a bug report should look' appears to be dead.
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There's a fine line between offering graphics options to improve experience and offering graphics options that will provide an in-game benefit... but I still upvoted the topic because there are enough graphical issues that I really do think this is necessary... I'd really love to be able to tune my settings down low enough that skill checks aren't so choppy for sure! <3