CarlAlc7
CarlAlc7
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@I_CAME said:
I've seen him do well in comp DBD. If people can have success in comp then you can beat regular survivors you will run into in pub matches. A lot of people love to exaggerate how bad killers actually are in a real match.
And despite this you still used comp play as an argument above, double standards much ?
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3721894#Comment_3721894
Agreed. His stalk doesn't get used nearly enough by most players. I'd suggest watching some Ghostface sets from DbDLeague and watch how those killers utilize him. It can even be viable to mark someone but not commit to them. That takes them out of any hook save equation and halts their ability to be aggressive.
The League you're talking about literally puts Ghostface in the lowest tier of balancing where almost all of the good survivor perks are banned to use against him and they only have him be played on Lery's and nowhere else, like that right there should tell you everything about how "good" Ghostface actually is if they need to favor him so much and put so many restrictions on the survivors in order to make him viable.
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PTB Vecna is definitely down there, homeboy has 4 gimmick powers and literally gives free cheat codes to survivors.
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All of this will just make it even funnier when he'll inevitably be tamed by a piece of wood xd.
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@Brightened said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3719432#Comment_3719432
That's fair. An anti-loop mechanic is much different than completely ignoring the loop though. It shows skill when you actually have to do the mechanic well versus all the killers they've been putting out when it comes to looping.
Think of every single killer.
Trapper puts a trap down in front of a loop… you're blocked. You can still take the time to go to another loop if necessary. Good mechanic.
Huntress can hit you with a hatchet. You can still continue to run forward and mind game. Good mechanic.I'm not saying that all the anti-loop mechanics are bad, but they're making killers with unavoidable anti-loop mechanics.
Unknown's UVX is not hard to dodge and the killer has a very short window to even get a hit with it, so that's anything but an unavoidable anti-loop mechanic.
Xeno's tail is hard to dodge but that's why he has the turrets so survivors can use them in order to counter his anti-loop or at least slow him down in a chase.
Chucky's getting nerfed so he can have more reliable counterplay.
And Singularity ... You're seriously complaining about Singularity ? Girl bfr.
These killers only have unavoidable anti-loop when you're too lazy to learn their counterplay.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3719236#Comment_3719236
no. she had add-on reliance problems like many of the killer changed in that patch. She needed a bit of a glow-up.
I mean, that pretty much just proves what I said lol.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3718613#Comment_3718613
how is she getting power-creep? She just got buffed to have 7 hatchets and 10% faster-wind up. She had potencial to get faster m/s when holding hatchets but it got changed due to outcry. She gets significantly good buffs and slinger gets these joke changes.
I'm pretty sure these buffs only happened cause of the power creep I mentioned.
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Well in the 8.0.0 PTB they just said that they fixed an issue where Plague would lose Corrupt Purge when stunned by any means necessary (so I assume pallets as well ?), so literally everyone who was defending this change just received a huge pie on their faces lmao.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
i find it impressive that they're still not giving deathslinger 24 meter TR for being 110%. Why give all these pointless changes to slinger if your not going to make his power good? Just make 4.6 m/s at this point.
I guess they don't want to leave Huntress as the only ranged 110% speed killer when she's already getting pretty powercrept in the current meta as it is.
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Maybe Wesker just isn't for you. Have you tried maining another killer to see if you get better results with them instead ?
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Wesker has the 6th lowest kill rate on nightlight currently and yet he's getting nerfed next patch, so what's your point again ?
Also going by your precious kill rate Sadako and Pig should be nerfed cause they're in top 5 highest kill rates while Xeno and Artist should be buffed cause they're in the top 5 worst kill rates atm, would you agree with all of these changes ? I mean you should considering how you think these stats are completely infallible ...
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@blastea said:
I thought about Legion as well I just didn’t think the play style would really make sense to her with Legion’s ability. I’ll definitely recommend it if she doesn’t like Wraith though!
Besides them you can also suggest Myers, Pig and even Chucky (he's the easiest killer to play out of the 110% speed ones).
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@Aven_Fallen said:
Coldwind Farm has become killer-sided overall since the Maps usually feature huge Deadzones nowadays. Survivors who burn Coldwind-Offerings actually hurt their team more than they benefit them.
We will see Haddonfield-Offerings used by Killers in the upcoming weeks.
You'll learn to deal with them just like killers deal with Eyrie/Badham/Garden of Joy/etc. offerings.
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Just say that you want Xeno to get nerfed, this is clearly what this post is actually about anyway.
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Considering that the devs said that they don't want survivor perks to directly counter killers' powers anymore it doesn't make any sense why they'd suddenly allow stun based perks to remove Plague's Corrupt Purge.
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@zarr said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3707334#Comment_3707334
You add 4 seconds every time you recall him, latched or not, which results in bigger cooldowns overall.
So you are suggesting the regrow time should always be 10 seconds, even on recalling Victor when he isn't latched onto a survivor? Sure, while that is the first time you bring this up as far as I can tell, that would be a nerf for them that someone could argue might make up for the reduction in time before you can recall. But instances of recalling Victor when he isn't latched onto a survivor are rare and barely relevant, the strong thing is injuring someone, recalling Victor, and attacking again. The important difference is between how Twins are supposed to be (30 seconds to recall on injuries, 6 to regrow) and your suggestion that this should be reduced to 20 (10 to recall, 10 to regrow). I'm not debating you on why the one or other may be appropriate and adequate and balanced or whatever, all I'm saying is that going from 36 to 16 (or 20) is a significant difference.
That's why what you did there is a false equivalency fallacy.
You don't seem to understand what an anology is. Just because someone draws parallels between two things does not mean they are creating an equivalence. I won't spend energy on further explaining this simple fact to you. What it boils down to is this: Do you or do you not think that a more than 50% reduction in power cooldown constitutes a meaningful change?
Yes, they can. From the 18 seconds that would take nowadays to crush Victor while latched and being able to use it again, to 36
The 36 seconds are their intended cooldown that I was referring to and that we have been talking about and contrasting to the current 16 seconds/your 20 seconds all along. Whether the 36 seconds are appropriate or not is again another question, but that is factually their intended cooldown and survivors cannot increase this.
Except that you can do this on top of punishing her by literally doubling her power's cooldown
What does one have to do with the other? All kicking Victor does is put him on a cooldown before he's available again, giving survivors respite, just like Spirit's power goes on cooldown.
And that "balanced ratio" has to be 36 - 40 seconds without the possibility of recalling it earlier? It can't be having the ability to recall and use him after 20 - 30 seconds with other compensation changes for balance?
I never argued any of this. Sure they could reduce the recall time and compensate for that buff with other nerfs, such as endowing Victor with more counterplay opportunities. There could be a thousand changes to Twins in theory various of which could be just as if not more balanced than the 36-second cooldown Twins. My opinion is that Twins as they are now with the 10-second recall time are broken, and that a 30-second recall time is more adequate.
Oh right, I forgot about your circular reasoning point: The devs agree with you, so they are right and there is no point in arguing if there is any other way to do it.
I'm sorry, but you really are being incredibly obtuse. I never said they are objectively right, much less that they are because they agree with me, or that there would be no point for anyone in debating whether they are right. I said I personally don't feel like arguing over this because the only reason I would is to convince the devs, you know, because they decide what happens in the game. And I don't have to convince them of my opinion, they already hold the same opinion. Go and debate with someone else all you want, all I did is point out your mistake in the beginning, you came back at me arguing for whatever your suggestion for Twins is.
That's totally false, it does not guarantee anything
I said "basically" every time. But if you really want to go and argue that Victor totally has counterplay and doesn't basically always converts hits, I won't be the one to argue against this, can't be arsed. The actual point was that Victor is a stronger ability than Spirit's, and as such appropriately has a longer cooldown than her. I hope you understand that that is true. After all, if you could control Victor the entire match and hook people as him and such, surely you don't think that would be weaker than Spirit.
No, I said that survivors can punish the Twins by taking Victor hostage and making her cooldown way longer.
This I suppose is where we had a misunderstanding, because as I pointed out before, the 36 seconds are their actual intended cooldown, just because a survivor could decide to crush Victor earlier doesn't suddenly mean their intended cooldown is 18 seconds. Because, you know, otherwise the ability to hold Victor would not have been implemented.
Either way, this still doesn't explain where you got that, according to my logic, Spirit should have no cooldown. It doesn't make sense.
No cooldown was an exaggeration on the logic behind you saying that killers being "punished" for using their power "correctly" (i. e. hitting people with it) is a bad thing. Disregarding that the hit is literally the reward in itself, from this logic would follow that killers should have reduced cooldowns on successful hits. Because why should they be punished if they used their power correctly with a cooldown just as long as if they had incorrectly used their power (missing)? Although I'll concur that you meant Twins having a longer cooldown on successful hits (on healthy survivors anyway) if the survivor decides not to crush Victor. Which again is a moot point however, since the intended cooldown is the time-to-recall, the ability to crush Victor exists because a survivor that he is latched onto can't do things such as repair gens or heal.
So, killers should be punished (more than they already are) if they play good and use their kit correctly and successfully, including giving survivors the ability to punish them even more. Got it. Sounds reasonable.
Killers are not being "punished" if they use their ability to get a hit, they are rewarded by the effect getting a hit has on the game. The cooldowns and slowdowns and whatnot this incurs are a balancing tool. And yes, a reasonable balancing approach is one that creates an adequate amount of respite for survivors from such abilities. In the example of Spirit, if one were to determine that she needs balance adjustment, both things could potentially be argued for, that she could have an increased cooldown on successful hits or an increased cooldown on missed hits. I think the former approach would be more reasonable, but ultimately both approaches would just boil down to creating downtime.
Using your same logic, the devs don't seem to agree with you on this, as the only change they have made to her base cooldown is to lower it […] So they are completely right, and there is no point in debate if this decision is the correct one, right?
You really don't get it. I never said they are right because they agree with me, and would be wrong if they didn't. The kind of immature reasoning you are showcasing here is beyond my desire to interact with.
With this specifically, I was referring to the idea that it could be argued a longer cooldown on successful hits could be reasonable for Spirit. I didn't say this is the only true and right and best way to go about it, nor did I even say it's a conviction I hold absolutely or do more than make a throwaway remark on that being a possible way to adjust Spirit if one were to consider balancing adjustments to her. Besides, this change by BHVR reduced her cooldown regardless of whether she gets a hit or not, so it isn't even relevant to the matter of whether killers should be "punished"/"rewarded" for using their powers "correctly"/"incorrectly". Regardless, It isn't part of any actual argument I made altogether, this asinine Spirit comparison has long outstayed its purpose, you just don't get that the only thing I off-handedly brought her up for is to highlight how significant slashing a power cooldown in half is.
And for that example and argument to be valid, those two killers should be comparable and assume that Twins cannot be balanced with their cooldown cut in half because Spirit will not. That's why it is a false equivalence and not a valid argument.
But I didn't say that cutting Twins' cooldown is half would not be balanced because it also wouldn't with Spirit. That's an equivalence you made up. I only used Spirit to highlight that cutting a cooldown in half is significant, of course it does not literally have to be 1:1 just as significant for Twins as it would be for Spirit, but it helps to get a feeling for how ridiculous of a change this was.
And smart saying "in ways", as there is nothing preventing The Spirit from downing a survivor and using her power to just down the next.
There is a power cooldown that prevents Spirit from downing multiple survivors in quick succession with her power. But again, there is no use in drawing direct comparisons between these killers, that is asinine. My argument here merely was that Victor is a stronger ability, and thus adequately has a longer cooldown. And I only argued this because you falsely implied I stated that Spirit's cooldown is fine and Twins' isn't, as if that would be some "gotcha" on errors in my thinking. No, their abilities have different power levels and therefore require different cooldowns. Halving their existing cooldowns would still respectively be ridiculous.
And that "cooldown approach" has to be letting the survivors take your power hostage for 36 seconds by removing her ability to recall him earlier, of course. There is no other "sensible" and well balanced approach.
I never said no other approach could ever be sensible. I have various ideas for Twins, some of which would also include reductions in recall time. You are arguing against delusions.
No, what I'm suggesting is not letting the survivors literally double her power cooldown by taking it hostage in response to getting hit by it, when it already has a minimum of 18 seconds if they crush it (8 seconds to crush, 10 seconds to return), which is basically the only reason they are now bearable to play in comparison to before.
It's not doubling the cooldown by deciding not to crush Victor, the intended cooldown is the timer until the killer player can recall. Crushing is in the survivor player's hand to reduce the time they are locked out from various actions for. Regardless, this just goes back to your idea that a 20-second cooldown (10 to recall, 10 to regrow) or let alone the current 16-second one would not only be better, but make them "bearable to play". I disagree with this, as do the devs, but I for one won't debate you on this. Maybe you are right and everybody that's saying the current cooldown is oppressively overpowered is wrong, I personally don't care to prove otherwise.
If you really don't have any reason to argue against not reverting the change and making the cooldown as high as before, simply don't debate.
I merely corrected your misunderstanding regarding Twins' power trivia, you started debating me on this, saying your suggestion of a lowered cooldown would still be sensible and the 36 seconds not. I have not once in this exchange started debating you on whether the 36-second cooldown is adequate, gone through the reasons why I think it is, whether it could be different, or whatnot. All I did in that regard is tell you that I am of the same opinion the devs are (36 seconds cooldown is needed, with Twins as they are), and that I don't care to argue or convince you of why I think that.
Now you're just assuming things about what I believe just like you were assuming that Twins were a top 5 comp killer with a high kill rate with absolutely zero facts backing you up and even lots contradicting you instead, guess this is just a pattern with you at this point.
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@zarr said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3707126#Comment_3707126
I already addressed this point earlier in the thread. "Unbound" means not bound to Charlotte or a survivor. It goes without saying that Victor has to not be bound to Charlotte in order to be able to recall him, so it's obvious the reason "unbound" is specified here is that it pertains Victor not being tied to a survivor. That change had also already been in on the PTB, and yet Victor could not be recalled while latched onto a survivor, further suggesting this is not what is meant here. And finally, if this were intended to also apply when Victor is latched onto a survivor, there would not be a 10-second timer until you can recall, because that is not "at any point". What this patch note refers to is recalling Victor when he is parked around the map, which was not possible in the past.
If that isn't enough to convince you, take it from the devs themselves saying this is an unintended bug, surely then meaning they didn't intend for that note to imply otherwise.
What are these weird hills people are trying to climb up to me from. Even if it were "documented", what does that change about the fact that it's broken? What is your purpose with this?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3707192#Comment_3707192
Lies? You really love your death on this hill. I said they were considered top 5 comp (past tense), which they absolutely had been, and no changes had happened to them since then. I did not specify they were considered top 5 up until the very day the update dropped, but again, the primary reason why they may not have been is simply that they don't see regular play in comp anymore and are not considered much at all. That is not mutually exclusive, I hope you can understand that. You also only brought up one event to support your point. Again, Outrun The Fog for instance has Twins in their second-highest tier. The Arkade has them more heavily restricted than half the killers.
"20th kill rate" is disingenuous. Again, the difference between the top 10 cut-off and Twins is 2%. If you bracket the killers by kill rate, Twins would be on 8th place, and that's a very strict bracketing by 1% integers. And regardless, I said high kill rate, which 58-60% absolutely is (60% in the high MMR bracket in Sep. 2022). Top 3 kill rate on Nightlight in the last month, top 9 and top 4 respectively in the two months prior to that. Saying only the most dedicated mains are playing them is also disingenuous, or just showcasing your lack of understanding that even a pick rate of 1% correlates with a huge number when looking at millions upon millions of matches throughout a month.
But yes, let's say you got me good, I heinously lied about Twins' standing in comp and performance potential in pub matches, to serve my sinister plot to get this 10-second recall time reverted that they absolutely need to be able to compete.
The only one dying on a hill is you babe, I literally proved you wrong with the exact same stats you yourself tried to use an argument. And compared to other killers then yeah, mostly just their dedicated mains are playing otherwise they wouldn't have one the lowest if not the lowest pick rate constantly, that's really not rocket science to understand. You literally gone back on stats from 2 years ago to salvage your argument, talk about actually dying on a hill lol.
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@zarr said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3706997#Comment_3706997
"20th kill rate" (or 58%) is within 2% of the top 10. They also had 60% in high MMR brackets (top 5, among other killers), as well as 60% on Nightlight right now (3rd deadliest killer there over the recent month of stats). What do you mean "living in a past", nothing about Twins changed in those years, and if anything the one thing that could regularly make them tangibly, consistently less potent if in play (Circle) has been nerfed substantially and sees little to no use.
At this point you just seem to be intent on dying on some tangential hill. Do you genuinely not believe that Twins were a strong killer prior to this update and direly needed buffs? Moreover, do you take issue with me suggesting the 10-second recall time is broken, and think they are fine with it? Because otherwise I can't see why you would hold up this argument. I even welcomed most of the improvements to them in the update, even if they went back on addressing one of their primary reasons to touch Twins to begin with, namely their propensity to slug.
No, I just took issue with you saying that they're a top 5 comp tier and had a high kill rate, which I already proven that there were both lies. 20th kill rate isn'f anything to brag when literally only the most dedicated mains are playing them, it proves that even they aren't dominating pubs like you were implying.
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@zarr said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3706841#Comment_3706841
The point was showing that even some of the best players in the game with top tier coordination struggle against Twins, i. e. that they were a strong killer before these buffs. That they do well in pubs where there are no restrictions is something I also pointed to, with their high average kill rate and the existence of long winstreaks.
As a general point and a bit of a tangent, people really overrate or misconstrue what restrictions do in comp play. First of all, it instantly changes the entire narrative from "survivors too strong" to "well, if all survivors have these stacked loadouts, then they can be too strong". Comp balancing doesn't change the basic game, most of it is just perk, item and add-on bans and restrictions. It goes to show that top killers are able to compete perfectly well with top survivors, and even outperform them. That already is something most people don't really seem think about, the fact that if you were to invoke comp for balance arguments, it would be most of all about perks, items and add-ons, because comp proves that it isn't gen times, most maps, vault speeds, movement speeds or any other base game aspect that creates a major imbalance (and again, if anything shows the game to be killer-favoured, with more than two kills per match on average).
The next thing is that the level of stacked skill and experience of the individual players in comp teams as well as their level of coordination and communication is something you will basically never see outside of comp. I would not hesitate to bet that those teams on their restricted loadouts will outperform most of any pub juker SWF armed to the teeth with everything they desire. And of course, not only are full SWFs with voice comms rare enough to encounter to begin with, but for them to then to also have stacked and coordinated builds and practiced communications and such is just non-existently rare. So really what we are comparing these highly skilled and coordinated comp teams against in an average pub match is worlds apart, which is solos and duos most of the time, of mediocre-at-best players, without any communication or coordination. An average random pub group like this will be less competitive even if they were able to use 8 perks per player than a top-level comp team with restricted loadouts.
The restrictions also not only go both ways (killers having a plethora of add-on and perk bans and restrictions too), they aren't as restrictive as is sometimes thought. Survivors can still use perfectly viable perks, that they get great value out of not least because they can coordinate their uses very well. Just take a perk like Camaraderie, something that is little more than a bad joke in most pub matches, but can be incredibly impactful in this environment where all players coordinate to make perfect use of it, with the player having it intentionally taking up aggressive roles (such as pressuring risky gens, contesting hooks, etc.) to be the one ending up on hook, only one player leaving to activate their Cama, with the rest sticking to gens for its duration. That already would be unthinkable in most of any pub match.
Comp-restricted DbD is still just DbD for the most part, it's still survivors against killers with all of their basic mechanics (well, the anti-facecamp mechanic has been negated, something I for one wouldn't do). If in that environment with full teams of highly skilled and coordinated survivors with practiced communications killers can still compete, it's no wonder they outperform in the pub environment where even just having a 4-player SWF is incredibly rare, let alone them then being highly skilled and experienced, having voice comms, team cohesion, coordination, stacked loadouts, and whatnot.
In the most recent released stats Twins had the 20th kill rate while literally having the lowest pick rate out of all the killers in the game, so even when they're not getting dragged down by new players and essentially only have their most dedicated mains playing them they're still mediocre in kill rates. At this point you're literally just living in a supposed past where Twins were a top 5 comp killer and had a high kill rate cause this is clearly not the case today.
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@zarr said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3706743#Comment_3706743
Yes, in the past when they were played in tournaments regularly, they were considered top 5, with 4ks being common results. Nothing about Twins had changed since then. The point I made was to highlight their strength, it wasn't about the comp scene, this isn't the gotcha you may think it is. I don't know why they don't see much of any comp play anymore these days, I guess teams just don't enjoy them (it isn't strength-related because a plethora of low-tier killers still of course do see play).
I also don't know why DbD League had them in tier 4 for the winter circuit, but again, not only do other tournaments still have them in higher tiers, but it may simply be balancing-specific. The explanation you are referring to was given by the thread creator, I'm not sure whether that was the officially given explanation from DbDL at the time. But even if it was, that doesn't mean there can't be outliers, and Twins might have simply ended up in that tier due to its balancing being more fitting for them. After all, the lowest tier is also not the "weakest", it's just the stealth balancing tier, with indoor maps and some exotic restrictions. But those killers actually 4k regularly on that balancing; Ghostface, Dredge and Myers on indoors are strong and that even against these highly coordinated teams with precise calls for those maps.
In either case, here's an example from DbDL itself of back-to-back Twins 4ks in a match between Eternal and Trauma (the best teams at that time):
In the most recent released stats Twins had the 20th kill rate while literally having the lowest pick rate out of all the killers in the game, so even when they're not getting dragged down by new players and essentially only have their most dedicated mains playing them they're still mediocre in kill rates. At this point you're literally just living in a supposed past where Twins were a top 5 comp killer and had a high kill rate cause this is clearly not the case today.
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@zarr said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3706743#Comment_3706743
Yes, in the past when they were played in tournaments regularly, they were considered top 5, with 4ks being common results. Nothing about Twins had changed since then. The point I made was to highlight their strength, it wasn't about the comp scene, this isn't the gotcha you may think it is. I don't know why they don't see much of any comp play anymore these days, I guess teams just don't enjoy them (it isn't strength-related because a plethora of low-tier killers still of course do see play).
I also don't know why DbD League had them in tier 4 for the winter circuit, but again, not only do other tournaments still have them in higher tiers, but it may simply be balancing-specific. The explanation you are referring to was given by the thread creator, I'm not sure whether that was the officially given explanation from DbDL at the time. But even if it was, that doesn't mean there can't be outliers, and Twins might have simply ended up in that tier due to its balancing being more fitting for them. After all, the lowest tier is also not the "weakest", it's just the stealth balancing tier, with indoor maps and some exotic restrictions. But those killers actually 4k regularly on that balancing; Ghostface, Dredge and Myers on indoors are strong and that even against these highly coordinated teams with precise calls for those maps.
In either case, here's an example from DbDL itself of back-to-back Twins 4ks in a match between Eternal and Trauma (the best teams at that time):
Then what even was the point of bringing up comp play in the first place as an argument when they make special conditions and restrictions for even the weaker killers to be able 4k coordinated teams ? You literally just shot yourself in the foot with that entire argument.
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@Header said:
everything they did basically buffs new blights and nerfs experienced blights
Pretty sure that was the whole point of this change tbh.
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@zarr said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3706142#Comment_3706142
Twins just haven't been part of the competitive circuit or at least not seen much of any regular play in it for years now. When they were, they were considered top 5, with 4ks being common. They are still in top tier balancing on tournaments now, such as Outrun. I'm surprised League's winter circuit had them that low, but it has to be noted that "tiers" here don't merely denote strength, but mostly what kind of balancing they call for. Twins usually have all healing stuff banned, so that might be why they had them in that low a tier.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3706191#Comment_3706191
The delay before unleashing is negligible if you recall. And you don't always have to cross the map (which however doesn't take a lot of time with Victor either) - if Charlotte unleashed Victor when she was on you the hit will happen quickly and won't allow you to make much distance, and she will be right on you and unleash again. It isn't even about the "10 seconds and he's on the map again" thing strictly though. It's that Victor has no counterplay, he guarantees hits and downs, and that already made them a very strong killer when survivors had the ability to frequently keep Victor out for the count for 30 seconds at a time. That being reduced to 10 seconds is ridiculous.
You are right about them being much more threatening in comp due to the restrictions on means of healing, but I still hold that highly coordinated teams of some the very best players in the game are worlds better than some pub SWF stacking healing perks. And actually meeting a full SWF that brings stuff like We'll Make It, Botany, Circle, 4 med-kits and whatnot is vanishingly rare to begin with.
This is not something I for one think is worth even having an argument over. Just play as or against Twins, or watch streamers do so. It'll be obvious soon enough.
Oh, so now Twins went from "were generally considered a top 5 comp killer" to "haven't seen comp play in years", how convenient 🤣.
Also they gave explanations for each one of the tiers and the tier Twins was placed in was for killers with either a weak chase power or with an old power that good survivors can easily counter, so that explanation you gave about comp tiers not correlating to killers' strenght is not flying I'm afraid.
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@zarr said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3706013#Comment_3706013
You are referring to "Charlotte can now recall Victor at any point while he is unbound.", which isn't what this is. First of all, "unbound" would mean not bound to Charlotte or a survivor. Secondly, this change was already in the PTB, and yet Victor could not be recalled while latched onto a survivor. And finally, if this were also applying when latched on, you would be able to instantly recall him, instead of having to wait 10 seconds. They simply reduced the time before you can recall Victor while latched on to 10 seconds, undocumentedly.
And while it isn't quite as horrendously broken as Twins were on PTB, you will still lose every time to an even just decent Twins unless you are a 4-SWF on comms abusing Power Struggle. And even then you will still lose if the Twins player is more than just decent. Victor will be out constantly, there is no respite, no time to reset, he'll be injuring and downing someone without counterplay every 20 seconds, and of course again be able to slug everyone in quick succession once they are injured.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3706030#Comment_3706030
You don't have time to out-heal Twins, Victor is on the map every 10 seconds ready to injure and down survivors.
Twins were already an incredibly strong killer before this update that were generally considered top 5 in tournament play and 4k'd even highly coordinated teams. I welcome the quality-of-life improvements to them, but this specific change is uncalled for and breaks the killer.
Twins being a top 5 comp killer is clearly something you took right out of your ass cause in a comp tier list posted 2 months ago they were literally placed on the second lowest tier of killers:
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3705415#Comment_3705415
i predict that he is going to be next artist. so far Nightlight says he has high pick-rate. So far I am wrong. let's see how long it holds up.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3705424#Comment_3705424
agree. Another newbie-stomp type killer. I like scottjund idea for buffing him. Make it so that survivor has to not look at the killer. Maybe if you look at the killer, he hinders you. that sounds like a more unique design then current iteration.
I think he's always going to have a higher pick rate than Artist cause his teleport alone makes him more fun to use than her. Also he can damage survivors through different floors levels unlike Artist, so you can do more tricky shots with him than with her.
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@E5150 said:
I don't think he's undertuned at all. Maybe the hindered part, but other than that, i think his problems come much more from being clunky, janky and ultimately needing too much effort to use effectively (like Singularity, which i feel almost the same when i'm playing).
While not an easy killer to use effectively I still wouldn't say Unknown's in the same ballpark of difficulty as Singularity.
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As someone already mentioned it's cause Xeno's pretty one-dimensional in terms of her gameplay, which makes her boring to play for most people in the long run. There's some tricky shots with you can do with the tail but the skill ceiling is still not as high as some of the other killers. Also this may be subjective but dealing with turrets in general is a real pain in the ass.
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@CrowVortex said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3704805#Comment_3704805
I'd rather they give back the ability to flashlight her crows but take away locker's removing swarm. Disagree with no skill though, sure she can anti-loop, it's not always a guaranteed direct hit though, you can bait the crow or swarm yourself before she can fire the dire crow as there's some delay after a summon. The skill ceiling is her snipes and dire crow follow-ups', slingshots and 1v2 harassment. 115 is justified as she requires 2 hits to injure with power, power working across the entire map is her whole theme as a reconnaissance killer. I'm surprised you don't have a problem with Trickster being 115 and being near impossible to loop on some map layouts.
Cause we already know how a 110% Trickster would look like and he was a complete disaster.
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@CrowVortex said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3704805#Comment_3704805
I'd rather they give back the ability to flashlight her crows but take away locker's removing swarm. Disagree with no skill though, sure she can anti-loop, it's not always a guaranteed direct hit though, you can bait the crow or swarm yourself before she can fire the dire crow as there's some delay after a summon. The skill ceiling is her snipes and dire crow follow-ups', slingshots and 1v2 harassment. 115 is justified as she requires 2 hits to injure with power, power working across the entire map is her whole theme as a reconnaissance killer. I'm surprised you don't have a problem with Trickster being 115 and being near impossible to loop on some map layouts.
Cause we already saw what a 110% Trickster would like and he was a complete disaster.
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Annoying sounds.
Boring anti loop power that forces survivors into holding W simulator, which is the worst type of gameplay for both killers and survivors.
The only fun part of her power, the sniping hits across the map, was already done much better by Huntress, thus the much, MUCH higher pick rate of the latter compared to Artist.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3703762#Comment_3703762
A Killer notices immediatly when the Survivor has OTR since there is no grunts of pain. No Killer is then stupid enough to wait out 10 seconds just to get hit with OTR.
That literally has nothing to do with what I said.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3703394#Comment_3703394
Nope, not wrong at all. You can just hit the Survivor after the Unhook and all measurements of Endurance are removed.
Except even in that case you still tank the hit which gives the possibility to run away. Killers tend to wait base kit BT but they won't wait 80 seconds of protection, so an extra hit is guaranteed if they tunnel you with OTR, which is want the perk's supposed to give you to begin with, not complete impossibility of getting downed during that timeframe.
Also as someone who constantly runs OTR I don't have a problem in avoiding getting hit right off hook. Seems like a case of either you or your teammates (or most likely both) playing badly which in return makes the perk look bad, which I'm not surprised about considering what other takes I've seen from you.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
Off the Record for Survivor. It is not 80 seconds of Endurance, it is as much Endurance as the Killer allows. Could be a long time, could be 1 second when hit right after the Unhook. Terrible Anti-Tunnel Tool since none of the effects do anything against tunneling.
For Killer, Bamboozle (not sure if this can be called Meta). I think it is just a Perk which makes Killer players play worse because instead of trying to mindgame structures, they just vault a Window and block it.
"It is not 80 seconds of Endurance, it is as much Endurance as the killer allows".
Weird flex and a plain wrong one at that lol.
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Grim Embrace. It's still not that good by itself and even paired with Deam Man's Switch it's not the OP combo people made it out to be when it got buffed (which is why now almost everyone stopped caring about this combo entirely and went back to complaining about Pain Res and Pop lmao).
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I'd def put Chucky and Clown lower.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3692977#Comment_3692977
He is very biased, one of the most biased players. There are Killer Mains who are less biased than him who always hides it with "I play both sides".
And the current Endgame is not unhealthy. One Survivor getting a pity escape via Hatch is not unhealthy. Killers can make it unhealthy by slugging endlessly for a 4K, but this is on the player, not the system itself.
Because as Killer, you dont NEED a 4K most of the time. If you finish the game with Gens still up and a 3K, it does not matter if the last Survivor gets lucky and finds the Hatch, you won as Killer. Let alone that the Survivor most likely has to get lucky to find Hatch first, because they a) move slower and b) have to hide while the Killer finding it first is more unlikely.
Example from yesterday:
Playing against a Spirit, 2 Gens to go, second Survivor dead. The only Survivors alive are SWF-Mate (0 Hooks) and another player (1 Hook). Spirit downs me, so I will not struggle or anything. But, she does not hook me. Instead, she lets me on the ground for almost 4 minutes to search for the other Survivor. Then (I have AFK-Crows at this point) she picks me up and plans on walking around with me (she had Agitation) to find the last Survivor. When I started wiggling she let me escape and ignores me for a minute or so, but since I am doing a Gen, she downs me eventually. I kobe (classic) while trying to suicide and then she lets me repair a Gen for 1 minute again before finally hooking me.
In the end she finds the Hatch first and gets the other Survivor while they are opening a Gate. So tell me, if she would have not done all of this, would the Endgame be unhealthy? No. Would it be unhealthy if the other Survivor escaped via Hatch and it is "only" a 3K with 2 Gens left? No.
But she MADE it unhealthy by keeping me slugged the whole time AND trying to prolong it even more by not letting me Bleedout. It is the Killers action which make Endgame unhealthy, this fixating on having a 4K instead of just accepting a Win with a Hatch escape (which it clearly is).
So yeah, Killers are the problem Endgame can become unhealthy, not the system itself.
"There are Mains who are less biased than him who always hides it with I play both sides" you don't need to tell us about it, we've already seen you do it all the time already, so maybe put that projector down next time before you're typing.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3690075#Comment_3690075
"Some other regression perks will need to be buffed, so that they can fill in the gaps."
Yeah, god forbid bad Killers cannot stack 4 Slowdowns to compensate for their lack of Skill.
Why not ? Survivors can stack 4 meta perks to compensate for their lack of skill as well so I don't see any reason for why killers shouldn't be able to as well.
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@Valuetown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3689701#Comment_3689701
Calm Spirit did not counter ultimate weapon the same way lightborn does to flashlight and flashbangs. Killers love this factually false statement so much. It removed the scream, but the blindness stayed.
Literally who cares about the blindness anyway ? If you took the screaming from Ultimate Weapon and only kept the blindness literally nobody would be running this perk anymore (just like they won't after the upcoming nerfs as well).
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Adrenaline will still be a strong, the actual meta perk that got destroyed was Ultimate Weapon (which makes the people who say that BHVR only balances in the benefit of the killers look like 🤡).
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@Baixaki said:
- decrease weakened time
- remove his ability to shoot through walls
- UVX cannot be applied near hooks (so no sniping the hook from afar)
Horrible killer to play against, but it has increasingly become worse. Oftentimes you only have the choice between an M1 or M2. Getting rid of weakened on maps like rpd is very difficult to almost impossible during chase. Most unknowns simply proxycamp the hook and apply weakened once the surv comes off.
Sight detection also feels a bit off in a lot of scenarios. Oftentimes you can clearly see him but the system doesn't detect it.
The weakened time is barely long enough to land a second hit as it is, decrease it anymore than that and his power would become literally unusuable.
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@ImWinston said:
She is the classic example of "W game". I don't understand how killers hate "W game" survivors but find it fun to play her.
for me she is a "solid" killer... not the strongest but not the weakest either. Who knows how to use it well, it's really scary.
She has one of the lowest pickrates in the game so it's safe to say not a lot of people actually find her fun to play.
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@lukeneves said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3681231#Comment_3681231
Agreed, it's too much. Worry about projectiles, worry about his clones, gens, unhooking. It's too much stuff. At least removing his projections needs to be a lot faster and he absolutely cannot be able to sense we're near them.
Dispelling his hallucinations literally only takes 4 seconds (5 if you remove them while Weakened), how much faster than that do you want them to be ? Also Unknown doesn't get any tell for when his hallucinations are being removed, you'd know that if you would just played him.
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@Emeal said:
I have seen Sloppy Butcher and Gift of Pain quite a few times still.
- You want Sloppy Butcher if you play a hit and run strategy or lose survivors easily.
- You want Gift of Pain if you wish to make sure Survivors get penalized on healing from unhooking, and -16% action decrease.
I think it was a pretty good change, despite that Survivors usually want to play safe. If they want to do that, then you can wrack up a modest accumulating reward or they can put themselves in danger, that's the choice. But it might be better to look at how busted Sloppy Butcher was before this change. Before it always accumulated reward since it was able to last forever.
I think it made sense to address it as bHVR worked on the game's healing since end of last year, forever value and perks being super reliable is probably something we can expect bHVR to take a look at.
I expect perks like Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance and Pop to get some counter play eventually.
I literally never saw anyone calling Sloppy Butcher "busted", so maybe that should tell you something.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3679178#Comment_3679178
Hmm, must be bugged then. Took about 10 seconds for me last night. I'll retest tonight.
I mean it's faster than a survivor healing you if you combine it with Botany Knowledge so maybe you had that equipped as well.
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His ultra rare add-on that makes survivors start the match Weakened shouldn't have a downside, it only makes your first chase with a survivor potentially faster but survivors can still remove the Weakened status before you start a chase with them/damage them with the UVX and afterwards the only active part of the add-on is the downside. The green add-on that makes survivors weakened after they complete a generator is much stronger than this one simply cause it doesn't have any downside.
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You can't argue that Dramaturgy is the best exhaustion perk but then also say that it needs a buff. Arguably none of the other exhaustion perks need any buffs.
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3675591#Comment_3675591
lol thats exactly my point. Killer have so many strong perks, that even those who only get used 10% are insanly powerful. Killer these day can jerry pick which of their strong tools they want to bring. Meanwhile, survivors have WoO and Deja Vu🤣
If you think these are the only 2 good survivors perks then that's just a you problem lol. I don't struggle at all with survivors powerful build variety.
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3670795#Comment_3670795
Dont know about We'll make it tho, since you get the Stack from the unhook alone. But sure, its definitly not bad synergy by any means.
Ngl I forgot that Aftercare procs on unhooks as well and not just heals lol.
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We'll Make It for the same reason as Botany.
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@BlackRabies said:
Actually like these changes. Are there any further changes to the other killers? Huntress or Pig changes?
They reverted the speed while holding hatchets buff and the RBT timer nerf, everything else from PTB was unchanged about them.