BubbleWrap
BubbleWrap
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Coming back to just say that this flavor text is still missing
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the people saying that only they deserve some random shirt in a video game because they happened to play the game during the time it was available are weird, what sort of incentive to play dead by daylight is "oh yeah, i own this shirt i dont use for a character i dont play that nobody else is allowed to have"
especially people who openly admit to not playing the game for long periods of time, like, getting upset over people getting customization options literal years later for a game that you could spend entire years of your life not thinking about is not the hill to die on
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Yeah, I actually hate this a lot, I hope it's unintentional and gets fixed
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@Tinker said:
Nahhh, I want Peter Strahm!!!! And Hoffman as Amanda Legendary :D
Strahm would be awesome!
Although, I'm pretty sure Amanda already has a Hoffman outfit. Though she doesn't become Hoffman, I think the leather jacket is meant to be a reference to him, and the other tan jacket to Rigg
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@Xbob42 said:
While I think the natural counter to face camping is to just do gens and ignore the person on the hook, thus making the killer get very little value (and hopefully teaching them naturally that it's not an effective strategy), this sadly doesn't seem to be viable as many survivor players are just as bad as the face camper, and will gleefully rush in to their own death, falling for the most basic of altruism traps.
So I was thinking of making something akin to a weaker version of BBQ basekit. Not the BP gains, but maybe a few seconds of killer instinct instead of auras of everyone a certain distance from the hook, something to lead killers away from the hook and to something more interesting. Although I guess since killer instinct can trigger through lockers, this might actually be more powerful than BBQ, so... maybe just like a split second of aura or something after the killer is back in control so they don't miss it?
I know a lot of people don't think BBQ helps killers camp less, but in reality a lack of information most likely contributes significantly to camping. If you have no idea where to go, do you just wander and hope someone's at the first gen you walk up? Remember, campers tend to be at yellow/green and maybe purple ranks, it gets more rare (though is absolutely still not unheard of, obviously) at red ranks. So I'd say a large number of those killers simply don't have access to good information perks, or know how to use them.
It's a tough problem to solve. You don't want to heavily punish camping, because there are plenty of scenarios where it's by far the only smart play, but beyond that if you punish the killer for camping rather than reward them for seeking out more survivors, you're opening it up to abuse, where survivors might find the optimal strategy to all go hang around near the hook so the killer doesn't leave or some nonsense like that.
You raise a good point! My initial post was worded poorly. What I would like to see is not a mechanic to punish camping, such a mechanic would likely be exploitable, take too much time to implement, and would add fuel to the fire that is the discussion of if the game is balanced and how. Instead, what I would like to see is for the survivor who is forced to stay on the hook as a result of camping to receive (at least partial) credit for objectives done while they're hooked, and what would equate to distraction points if the killer remains within a certain proximity. This has no impact on the game play, it just makes it so that if the team is efficient as the killer decides to camp, the survivor may still be upset that they died (and there's no preventing that), they receive credit for the time they bought for their team, and for the objectives they gave them the time to complete. The only negative I could see to this is that it could encourage, in a way, for solo queueing survivors to neglect unhooking their teammates. I don't think this would be the case, however, as unhooking to have more people alive to heal and do objectives is still more efficient. If anything, I believe it would make watching 3 strangers do gens while you need to be unhooked (even while you're not being camped) less frustrating, because you'd know you're at least getting some credit for it.
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@noctis129 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1762082#Comment_1762082
"If I lead the killer on a decent chase and get face camped to death from that from the very start of the game, that killer prevented me literally from playing the game past that first chase."
Yea. That's how it is.... U totally deserve to die. U might of been having fun, imagine the frustration the killer went thru. Why do u gotta piss the killer off like that? Just stand still and get hit. If not, ur gonna get facecamped. Why are u so entitled?
"Quite literally, the survivor has 0 chance to PLAY the game."
If u are in the game, even if ur slugged, on hook, working on gens, running around for no reason, u are still "playing" the game. There is no such thing as ZERO chance of playing the game.
"not necessarily that impact gameplay, but that punish the survivor less for a situation completely beyond their control."
By ur definition of being punished. Everyone who plays dbd is being punished. Whatever ur trying to do here, will impact gameplay. U say ur not, but ur goal is to change the way, someone else plays the game.
Better way to look at it is, nobody is being punished. Ppl are just playing the game. There is no fair or unfair. There is no, I am not playing becuz I'm slugged, or being facecamped.
The game doesn't owe u anything. Game does not guarantee to give u "fun". And it will never be "fun" for everyone.
Death, is not an escape ....
Allow me to clear up a few misconceptions and inconsistencies you seem to have if you'd like to continue offering discussion in this thread. It seems you are holding a double standard to the experience of the survivors as opposed to the experience of the killer. It may be frustrating to be led on a chase by an efficient survivor, but there is also room for counter play and decision making to be had for the killer here. Regardless of whether that counter play is performed well or poorly, it exists and is part of the games dynamics. Even if your argument is that both sides being frustrated all the time is fair and how the game should be played, (which doesn't seem to be the stance you're taking, in favor of killers), for a survivor on the hook being face camped, the only decision is whether or not they feel like buying their team that extra minute while they mash space. I play both survivor and killer at red ranks, and I can assure that there is much more going on in an active chase than there is for a survivor on hook. Even long chases can be interesting and fun for a killer, even if you end up being upset with a poor outcome - you can get some hits, trigger some perks, maybe disrupt some gens, etc. In that instance, both of you got to participate and enjoy some part of it. The survivor got to enjoy trying to escape, buying time for their team, perhaps hiding, and the killer got to enjoy playing mind games, pressuring that survivor(s) off of objectives, and actually downing them. Being stuck on hook for two minutes while a killer stares at you is none of that.
And yes, while being on hook is technically playing Dead by Daylight, what I mean to say is that the actual active part of Dead by Daylight, where one has to find objectives, decide if it's safe / worth working on them, trying to run from / hide from the killer or save a teammate, is completely taken away from someone when being face camped. It makes no difference whether they are even at their controls or not until they get to phase two, which almost seems to be there just to make sure they ARE at their controls. When someone is being face camped, they have no chance to participate in the active parts of Dead by Daylight.
I also don't understand what you mean about my definition of being punished. When I say the survivor is punished, I mean that they're playing in a ranked queue and forced to lose that rank simply because the killer decided they wanted to stay right next to the hook, instead of focusing on their other objectives. Giving that hooked, camped survivor credit for generators that get done while they're forced to stay on hook, and distraction points if the killer is staying close to them does not in any way discourage the killer from camping them or force any sort of decision from the killer. It merely makes it so that the survivor who gets camped doesn't have to get penalized for a situation they have 0 influence or control over - It is now up to how they play as a team. For a game that queues on a ranked system, especially for the side that relies on teamwork to succeed, I feel that a change such as this would be highly beneficial.
I intentionally left emotions out of this post and argued my opinion using in game dynamics and mechanics, since that seems to be what you want to hear. Camping is a strong mechanic, and face camping can practically guarantee a kill. If the survivors play well as a team and get objectives done while a killer is guarding a hook, it is my opinion that the survivor who was sacrificed so that those objectives could get done at all should receive credit for that. In my original post, I mentioned that face camping will continue to occur unless a game mechanic punishes it. I was using this to justify why I think being face camped should be less punishing for the survivor, not why the killer needs to be punished.
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@dezzmont said:
I think getting clear rewards that show the survivor that enduring being camped may be a good way to make being camped feel better and in most games would be fantastic game design to make something that seems negative convey that something good is happening...
...Which is why I don't think it should happen...
Part of the psychology of the hook, why it exists the way it does, is to cause player distress. Positive distress mind. It is supposed to be an ultra-negative experience that makes you want to go above and beyond to avoid it, making mistakes or playing more defensively than you might otherwise. Likewise, its meant to put mental pressure on the survivors, making them want to rescue even if they know its a bad idea.
Sorta like how the killer doesn't get points for bad chases where the survivor successfully wastes a lot of time by goading them on a chase through a gym with lots of resources, survivors shouldn't be rewarded for falling for the psychological battle of camping.
Camping is a purely survivor sided problem. In theory, survivors who want to play optimally will just do gens during the camp, win, and have 3 survivors pip, 1 depip, and the killer depip. If your all equally good survivors, whoever gets camped will be 'random' and because 3 people pip and 1 person doesn't, you will all pip extremely fast using this method.
But you don't WANT to do that. You WANT to rescue. And the killer knows this. The entire reason the hook is a hook is to let the killer mess with you emotionally. If they didn't want being hooked to feel bad, to affect behavior, they would just have everyone hook you like Pyramid Head, which virtually guarantees you get free and that he can't really camp you... but they didn't. Good killers will get reads on your team, determine if how badly you want that unhook, and how coy they need to be about camping it for you to make a mistake. Bad killers just mindlessly facecamp... but they also just mindlessly run from the hook as well. It isn't about defending the hook from them, its about good chase conversion: The easiest and most efficient way to start a chase is the survivor coming to you, ideally eating a hit to rescue, in an area devoid of resources where you just won a chase. As a survivor, you CANNOT be mad at the killer for having a theory of your mind and using it to win, they aren't your friend and unlike something like a Mori they also can't really control this interaction: if you play into camping, your also creating a scenario where the killer NOT camping is a horribly bad choice that actively hurts themselves extremely badly. A killer not converting a hook to another chase cleanly if the unhook is swift is an absolute nightmare scenario that often loses games entirely at high ranks. They cannot AFFORD to pretend to not notice your crappy sloppy rescue you made because you got emotional.
Camping is actually an intentional mechanic. And its intended to mess with you. The system obfuscating both how camping helps your team AND how it can hurt the killer (Because the hook ALSO is messing with the killer's mind and may trap them into a defensive loss adverse posture they shouldn't have, so it not clearly showing the killer things like the 'camp circle' or the fact that chases near the hook don't count as camping, or making the hook timer change color to show its slower) is an intentional, and brilliant, bit of design.
That said showing people that trying to unhook themselves is VERY BAD I feel is important, as is showing people that unsafe rescues are bad. I don't think they did a good enough job with self unhooking, and unsafe rescues don't really have good negative feedback at all. There is a lot of room to add these elements while keeping the hook psychologically distressing, and playing into how it (rightfully) feels cruel.
I really like your discussion and the points you bring up! However, as a brief response to what you say here, my intention is not to make being camped feel good or anything like that. I was just brainstorming ideas that, if implemented, would make being camped less frustrating for the person getting camped, and to make the teammates feel less guilty for having to abandon them. Of course, your opinion would seem to still be that this is a bad idea even with a full understanding, and I think I understand! You want to maintain the negative feeling being stuck on hook provides, and I think that's a good opinion to have. I feel as though my idea could also encourage ignoring rescues in a way and just genrushing, which would also be a bad outcome. However, despite that, face camping is undeniably one of the most frustrating aspects of this game, and I would still like to see some sort of change that doesn't impact the gameplay, but alleviates that frustration.
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@noctis129 said:
Camping, tunnelling, and slugging is not the issue. The issue is the mentality of entitled survivors.
This game is not always fun, most of the time it's frustrating.
Hardcore guilt tripping killers on forums is toxic.
Just leave killers alone.
The real issue is, survivors think they deserve 3 hooks per game. Than it's 'fair'. Otherwise it's toxic.
Too many ppl play dbd w their emotions. And get their feelings hurt. And that right there, is the real problem.
I'm doing no such thing, trying to "hardcore guilt trip killers". It's no secret that being face camped completely takes the fun out of the game. Quite literally, the survivor has 0 chance to PLAY the game. If you feel guilty when people discuss ways to make face camping less horrible for the survivor, i.e. credit for objectives their teammates get while hooked (similar to how it works for chases, or maybe something like the distraction / protection points survivors can get), that is on nobody but you.
At no point in this post did I ever shame killer players for camping. If I die on second hook because my teammates were well pressured, that's just how it is. If I die on first hook because I was hooked last or something, that still sucks but okay. If I lead the killer on a decent chase and get face camped to death from that from the very start of the game, that killer prevented me literally from playing the game past that first chase. To make that process less frustrating, for myself and for anyone who's ever been in that situation (whether the killer is acting "malicious" or not), I want to discuss changes that could be made, not necessarily that impact gameplay, but that punish the survivor less for a situation completely beyond their control.
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@splat said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1760508#Comment_1760508
They been there since the other teammate died, in the basement, crouching and moving so not afk it was 100% intentional.
😥
Oh yeah, but what I mean to say is that since they're ignoring the objective 100% (not doing anything altruistic, not running or hiding from the killer, not looking for gens or totems, etc.), they're essentially AFK, even if they aren't literally away from their keyboard. And I believe that if them playing like that bothers you, as it actively disrupts the game, it's a valid reason to report.
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Report them and move on, I'd say. That seems to be practically AFK, and there is a report category that lists being AFK as a reason, I believe. I may be mistaken. Unlucky :(
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Typically, it's way safer to escape and then heal if you're given the opportunity. There have been very, very few times I have ever healed after a basement unhook, I was playing with a friend and they asked me to. I had We'll Make It and was able to heal them by the time the killer came back, letting us escape.
That was one time out of probably over 200 hours. So, it can happen, but it's not likely :p
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@Moundshroud said:
<laughs> Yeah, I don't get that Perk either. It could be it is awesome in some extremely skilled hands, the Monto of the world, but in mine, it is just putting myself one step closer to death for the Killer. I do feel it needs a rework because the UPSIDE is not enough to balance the DOWNSIDE in my opinion. It does NOTHING for you whatsoever if the Killer just hooks you.
Right! Exactly. The downside No Mither comes with often ends up negating the upside - since the killer knows about it, they won't give you the chance to revive yourself even IF a situation arises where they may want to slug. At that point, it's just super crippling (and less effective) Iron Will.