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Avocium
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@sulaiman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3030089#Comment_3030089
i often read the claim killer would just choose solo queue, but i dont understand why.
Remember, my idea means that both queues are balanced seperatly to make both forms equaly fair, so in solo queue, the killer is much weaker than in swf queue, where they would be way stronger to compensate for the swf.
So, if a killer would have to choose between 2 equally fair matches, with the same chances of winning or losing, why do you thing he would only choose one of them? Just give me a reason that doesnt ignore the sepereate balancing.
if they're balanced then it would be fine, but why wouldn't people just divide into 3 man groups instead of 4 man in that case to get into solo queue? or duo?
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@sulaiman said:
I actually disagee about the communication for solo, because it would only solve one of the problems solo queue has compared to swf. People not playing in a team is another one, as well as some people having their own agendas, be it challenges, bp - and thus, hook - farming, or just want to screw people over.
I think seperating solo queue and swf queue would be the right way to go, while balancing both for the task at hand. Meaning killers can get nerfed if they so to the solo queue, but buffed if they choose to face swf-teams (compared to the now-standard). That would make fairer games all along.
Sure, balancing maps would be great, but i doubt you can, especially if you want a)better placement of things like pallets, but b) more random maps...
So, but we don´t have different queues for solos, and we dont have balanced maps, so your main take is screw the solos because swf is too strong, do i get that right?
separating the two would not work because no killer wants to play against 4swf, they would all choose solo queue.
Increased communication would not fix every problem, but it would at least give survivors the potential to play in harmony and increase their survival rate if they choose to use it. If the game was balanced around teams using a system like this together instead of just solo queue 4 swf would still be overpowered but not by as much.
making the maps truly random while maintaining balance would be unrealistic. It would be better to have 20+ unique versions of each map handcrafted by the devs and randomly chosen. Moving the pallets wouldn't be enough, it would require moving buildings/ruins around as well. For some maps this would be more difficult than others obviously.
Killers with high MMR get 4swf very frequently and it actually kind of ruins the experience because 4swf can be almost unbeatable a lot of times. I don't want to screw over solo players obviously but there must be a way to nerf 4swf while also making games somewhat fair for solos. There are plenty of ways to do this - they could just increase gen repair time for teams that have have more people playing together for example. Honestly that wouldn't be enough, but it would be a start - but it would also require balancing because you don't want to discourage people from playing together either.
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It is hilarious that uncensored chat is too much for a game about serial killers repeatedly executing people
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@sulaiman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3027469#Comment_3027469
Stealth is heavily nerfed by the map reworks, you want to nerf looping more than already planed, and pallets are only good once, in the beginning of the match. without looping or any way to conserve them, they are gone fast and then there is no protection anymore.
Since solo survivors can not coordinate well enough in most cases, how do you expect them to be able to win? (if you agree with me that the possibility should exist in the first place, maybe you are not).
i would be very interested in your thoughts on this, and this has to include killers like blight which you cant just escape with holding shift + w.
(and just to make it clear, i am a solo survivor main that does play both sides, and i dislike looping in both roles. To me, its the most boring aspect of the game. as survivor, i prever stealth, because making the killer lose you in a chase is much more satisfying for me, however with map reworks there are very few options left to do that, and with the iron will nerf it becomes harder again. so i see that looping is needed, since there is nearly nothing left for solo survivors).
A huge part of the balancing issue is that there are two groups of people that play this game: you have small parties or solo players and 4 man groups. The difference of capability between these two is so massive that the devs cant balance around them both. If they make a buff for solo players it will usually translate to a massive buff for a 4swf which already holds a massive advantage over most killers. The answer to this can only be to increase the communication available for solo/small groups, voice chat should be the first thing they implement
To be honest my original post was only made as a response to the bt problem i foresee in the future. As a whole i dont think looping is so bad that it needs to be artificially removed and id rather it not be. Gameplay is best when you are not forced to play in a specific way, but i do think the upcoming changes will make this game even more frustrating for killers and something will have to be done so they stand a chance against 4swf
A better, more natural, solution to this problem would be for the devs to recognize looping areas in all of the maps and alter them to make it a bit harder than it currently is to draw out a chase, remove pallets in some areas and add them in others. I would also like for the contents of maps to be more randomized than they are.
The space between hooks on some maps is also easily abused by survivors and needs to be fixed.
And these are just a few problems. Balancing this game for every killer is probably impossible, but more than half the killer roster can easily be looped and abused by 4swf. These are usually the lesser played killers and would need to be reworked to compensate, but then their kill % will increase for solo queues so again - before any other changes the moat important thing should be adding communication methods for solo queue
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killer is too weak. Your post should be complaining about the devs ######### lobby and chat
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body blocking is fine but bt body blocking absolutely should not be a thing. The sort of gameplay mechanics that allow survivors to bully the killer completely destroys the horror aspect of the game and feels forced to appease the survivors that suck at the game imo
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It does suck when the beginning and mid games are instantly skipped over by 4swf but i would recommend creating a build around camping late game honestly. still can be fun and youll get some practice in either way
maybe like no way out, starstruck, no one escapes death lmao
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@GoshJosh said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3027996#Comment_3027996
No, it is perfect game design. It means killers can’t just mindlessly go after one person until they down them and still win the game (at least sometimes). It’s what sets apart good killers from bad ones.
dude, you can still easily mindgame and draw out a chase by 15+ seconds without looping. And the only thing that would change by making it slightly harder to loop is survivors would actually have to ... you know... *hide* more instead of being able to run up and faceroll killers with 4 swf.
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@Shooby said:
It's not an eSport. Never will be. But let's not forget the only online matchmaking game modes are Ranked matches. Always have been too.
I wouldn't really call them ranked matches tbh since you stay in a bracket once you push through to it. It's a fun goal to achieve but really you just gotta play enough games and you will naturally max your rank
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@Phantom_ said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/331033/not-an-esport-dont-try-to-make-it-one
Do you really have the audacity to say the devs have a lazy game design because they change their game and the QoL of it in the ways they see fit (mind you based on the stats they have)?
This is their game and they can change it however they want without having to take anything their community says into account, yet they do. Since when is looping a killer playing a game of hide-and-seeking? Like what are you even on about? There is no "beating the killer" other than looping them and the others doing gens to escape.
Every match is called a 'trail', not a camping ground. Speaking of being lazy.
Seriously? There are people that don't think the devs are lazy? Even before this update people complained for years about how OP survivor perks are without them changing them. Zero new game modes, can't even be bothered to remove blood point limit, I'm assuming their servers are failing based on the universal increases in lag lately, etc etc
It's a fun game even if I have gripes, but I'll call the devs lazy straight to their face
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@Predated said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3027777#Comment_3027777
I played every single killer, not a single killer can be looped indefinitely. If you've been looped indefinitely, you've been playing against survivors who are at least 3x as good as you are.
"they can stun with flashlight and grenade upon pickup"
So, every survivor gains either a flashlight or a flash grenade basekit, no more durability, got it.
"there are places where they can basically disappear into bushes"
Ah, but there is a thing called sound. They might visually disappear, but you can perfectly hear which direction they are from your POV. If they went ahead of you into a bush, you can hear footsteps on your left or right, and bam, problem solved.
"with 3 gens left, a 20 second chase is all you need", no, you dont, because gens will take 90 seconds, that means you need a 90 second chase to pop. Otherwise you can hook them, so 1 would need to go for the unhook, 1 would be on the gen, and 1 would be in chase. Ruin alone would regress gens fast enough, Pop, Call of Brine, Overcharge and Pain Resonance would slow the game more than enough to down a survivor within the next 60 seconds, meaning out of those 3 gens, maybe 1 has popped. And repeat.
Since there are no loops, 20 seconds chase means you can down and hook a survivor within 40 seconds of finding them. So you can chase 1 survivor off a gen, use Overcharge+pop, go to the next gen, use Overcharge again, and now at least 1 generator will be regressing at 400%. Then chase that survivor, hook them again within 40 seconds, and only 1 gen has popped, go to the one gen you kicked first before and now you've gained 2 hooks for the price of only 1 gen, and the rest being practically 0% progression.
That means on paper, you would easily have 10 hooks on 5 gens, only 2 survivors surviving, both on dead hook, so you can slug for a 4k easily. This is already quite bad. But it gets worse, with that optimal survivor strategy, you can kill 1 survivor in about 5 hooks(they would HAVE to work on gens, heal teammates or unhook them), so no risk of DS, or they basically tell you that you've gained a ton of time. Since the first survivor would die at 2.5 gens being done, now you'd have 1 survivor on hook, 1 in chase and 1 in need of unhooking+healing. Since there are no loops, you can now guarantee to kill your second survivor, assuming you didnt do so before(which you could have done). Leaving only 1 survivor that can do chase, and 1 that can do gens. Now maybe the 3rd gen pops, you have 1 survivor on hook, and 1 that cannot be on gens, they are either trying to unhook, or in chase.
So now, to make it fair for survivors, 2 generators are being removed from the game because there are no more windows and pallets.
@GoshJosh said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3027777#Comment_3027777
“Looped indefinitely”? Are you still somehow on a build of DbD from 2017?
Yeah, this is certainly a case of git gud.
on most maps you can easily loop most killers around killer shack for 1+ minute drop pallet, move to next loop, juke killer once move to next loop etc. etc etc.
in the right set up you can loop killer for long enough for the rest of your team to unlock every generator.
Should the killer keep chasing? Of course not. Thats my point. A good killer knows when hes at a disadvantage and will immediately change who hes chasing. To do this right now is extremely easy and you're either lying or just bad if you claim you can't do this against most killers. It doesn't mean that the killer automatically loses, it just means that if you don't give up chase then you're probably gonna lose - that is bad game design imo.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3027683#Comment_3027683
Imagine writing a title that correlates with what you wrote in your post.
I get if you disagree with me but now you're just being ridiculous
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3027461#Comment_3027461
"Did I say that it would?"
Well your title states that. - "HAVE ENTITY BLOCK WINDOWS TO END CAMPING" Not very ambiguous.
imagine actually reading the post
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@ThatOneDemoPlayer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3027461#Comment_3027461
Maybe because tunneling is unhealthy for the game while looping isn't?
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3027470#Comment_3027470
Yes, Bubba is weak against Windows, your point?
"bad game design is whatever I don't like"
lul.
Most of my hours are on survivor, I don't really like being tunneled or camped either but it's even worse playing a killer that can get looped indefinitely and forced to give up chase - not because of a skill differential but because of speed and map abuse.
If I continue getting looped out of killers that I want to play then don't ######### complain when I start camping and running nurse wit NOED more.
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@DEMONANCE said:
looping is fun for both sides the possible outplays, the clever use of your power as killer and your game knowledge as a survivor is what makes things interesting, it just stops being fun for killer when survivors get the most broken maps.
maps should be balanced which i hope becomes something the devs pay attention to in the future and this upcoming patch makes me hopeful.
believe it or not if the upcoming patch is done right this could be the best time to play killer.
I would agree with this if looping is done completely with mind games as it should be, but like I said and like you also pointed out many maps are broken and its even worse for many slow or low tier killers that depend on winning chases.
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@C3Tooth said:
Survivors cry too much.
- Body block complain
- Block windows demand
- Gen time increase is not enough
The absolute irony of this post when there are multiple posts on this forum complaining because a good nurse can't be looped.
Gen time increase will help some killers at highest levels of play. For most killers it will not be enough to make a difference and is outclassed by perk changes imo
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@GoshJosh said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3027469#Comment_3027469
Oh I know you are. Which is exactly why I said what I said.
so you're just afraid of new opinions then or can't explain why this is a bad idea?
Looping is no skill map abuse that can buy a ######### ton of time for survivors unless killer immediately gives up chase. Many slower killers can get looped indefinitely. Are you saying this is good game design then? Even without looping you can mindgame to buy plenty of time so please explain why looping should continue to exist other than to provide literal escape areas against some killers at best and buy an extra 30 seconds to a minute against other killers at worst
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@RakimSockem said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3027345#Comment_3027345
Have I played killer? Yes.... yes I have. And if what you said earlier about your playtime ("140 - 90" is your hours as survivor and killer respectively, then I have roughly 4x as much experience on killer than you have your total playtime combined.
Then maybe you have too much time logged and can't see how frustrating and unbalanced the game can be for most players
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@GoshJosh said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3027453#Comment_3027453
Hex: Crowd Control. This post is Hex: New DbD forum user.
I'm talking about making it inherent, not a perk.
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@ThatOneDemoPlayer said:
There are 2 Perks that do that, Bamboozle and Trickster's Hex Perk (I forgot the name)
And theres already a perk to shield survivors off hook, its called borrowed time but thats not stopping the devs.
@Phasmamain said:
So getting rid of looping will stop every single killer from camping. I don’t see any flaw in this plan /s
Did I say that it would? This would definitely help more than giving all survivors borrowed time and off the record buff
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3027345#Comment_3027345
"At high levels of play there are maybe a few killers who can secure that kill ratio.... at low levels of play there are even fewer because knowledgeable survivors have the advantage."
What are you basing this off? At lower level killer usually dominates. Of course, until I see actual stats that break down this kind of information I can only speak from personal experience.
high level being the highest level of killer and survivor play.
low level being average competitive play. At low levels of competitive play where both sides know what they're doing 4 swf have a huge advantage and there are very few killer/perk combos available that can counter. Not to mention some maps are just impossible for some killers to even get close to victory.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3027333#Comment_3027333
Just to head one thing off at the top of the order here- there is a defined idea of what a win is. Three or more kills as killer, escaping as survivor. Those are the win conditions, it's not ambiguous.
To tackle everything else: When you say that killers should be adjusted so they're possible to win against, that's balancing. The game needs to be balanced or the people who want to approach it more casually are going to have a worse time, not a better one.
As someone else pointed out, the 50% escape rate isn't actually two out, two dead in every match, that's partially my bad for phrasing it that way. It's an average- two games, one where every survivor escapes and one where every survivor dies, would still give a 50% kill rate on average, and that's more where the devs seem to be looking. Which is a good thing, because you're right- a 2k is a draw for the killer, not a win, and that'd suck.
There are also degrees of winning and losing, to be fair. The emblem system will give you different score depending on your points, so there's absolutely such a thing as winning with high points and winning with low points.
Yes, as far as I'm aware the game is balanced around 2k/2e being the average game. Given the nature of this game that is very different from the game being balanced around that explicitly as an average, ie (4k one game, 0k the next game, average of 2k/2e). I would rather it be the latter over the former for the reasons I've given in previous posts about how 2k/2e feels like a win rather than a loss to most survivors and a tie at best to killer.
To be more specific about balancing, I think killers should simply be balanced around their win rates (which you can call 3+ kills but I'm not sure if the devs feel the same way) rather than maintaining the 2k/2e ratio as I previously believed they were, now I'm not so sure. This is sort of what I was trying to say but honestly the difference in opinion over what constitutes a win is making it difficult to make my point.
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@RakimSockem said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3027333#Comment_3027333
Not feeling like a win to YOU is a personal issue though. It doesn't matter how it feels to you. 50% out and 50% dead is a good balance for an asymmetrical game to aim for
I don't think thats true. It feels fine for survivor because it feels like a win. 2k/2e is not fine for killer because it inherently doesn't feel like a tie. If you took a poll of the killer playerbase I would also be very surprised if 3k felt explicitly like a win.
Conversely, 1 escape feels like a win if you're a survivor. 2 escape feels somewhat good as survivor even if you're not one of them. 3 escape almost feels like a complete victory if you're not the survivor who died.
This is the problem in my eyes, and it's a substantial problem because the feeling of the gameplay will reflect how the game is played. It's obviously off balance already which is why we don't get a variety of different killers and why people camp/tunnel
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@RakimSockem said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/331033/not-an-esport-dont-try-to-make-it-one
What are you rambling and whining about??? How is balancing for a 2k/2e going to piss off anyone? When I play killer, I'm happy to get 2 kills. When I play survivor, I'm happy if even ONE of my teammates lives, let alone 2.
People who camp and tunnel to secure kills are the ones who are trying to make the game an E sport because they're tossing FUN out the window to compensate for their lack of ability to secure kills and all they care about is securing kills as if it's an E sport and their stats are being tracked and they aren't going to get paid unless they try their hardest to secure a kill. I agree the game is not an E sport, so why care about kills so much instead of just enjoying the chases and having fun?
Being upset about being camped and tunneled has nothing to do with wanting to hide? How did you draw that conclusion. It's irritating to wait for a match, load into that match, and then not get to participate in said match because some dingus cares so much about securing kills that they forget games are supposed to be fun
2k/2e will piss off everyone because it is impossible to balance every killer for that ratio. At high levels of play there are maybe a few killers who can secure that kill ratio.... at low levels of play there are even fewer because knowledgeable survivors have the advantage.
The reason perks NOED exists is to achieve some balance for otherwise useless killers who wouldn't get any kills at all - but its only use is for end game which is bad design because it basically says the beginning and middle of the game was irrelevant. The reason why you get a lot of campers/tunnelers is because many killers literally give up on the chase/hunt and try to get a team kill from preying on rescue attempts. This isn't fun for the killer or survivor - it's just a result of poor game design.
I mean seriously, have you played killer? Maps get abused so hard now it's possible to loop for days against most killers. Maybe a balance for this would be for the entity to block any window thats recently been used if survivors now get a free borrowed time
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@jesterkind said:
The game has to be balanced around something, e-sport or no. Two out, two dead seems like a pretty decent target to me, that allows both for the competitively minded and the more casually inclined to have a shot at enjoying the game.
What alternative did you have in mind?
imo the idea it needs to be balanced around something is wrong. Of course we don't want the killers to be impossible to win against so they should individually be adjusted so that they're both fun and possible to win against.
A major problem however is that there isn't really a definition of what a "win" is in this game. Many people think the two out two dead is fair because.. well... on the surface it seems like 50% of kills would be fair. The issue is that to most killers this does not feel like a win, at least it doesn't feel that way to me. If I was responsible for this game I would place much more incentive on trying to escape as a team and have different degrees of winning - right now bloodpoints are the only validation players have for whether or not they've won and ideally I would change that. There are varying degrees of victory in this game so there should probably be varying degrees of rewards as well - some variation of team points awarded based on how many of your team escaped that could be spent differently than bloodpoints. This would be the bare minimum for me however, I think the blood web/ bloodpoints/purchasing perks is terribly outdated and gatekeeps new players too hard
For the record I have more time as survivor than I do as killer, I think my hours are probably something like 140-90 so I wouldn't presume to call myself an expert on either, I'm just saying what I've felt over the last few weeks as I've put most of my hours on killer recently and overall I would say the experience is much more frustrating and much less fun than survivor overall.
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honestly if you can down a survivor in the first 20-30 seconds camping him till hes out and then 3v1 is prob the best option regardless of gens right now against 4swf
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sorry if im harsh i just need to get this out
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@rvzrvzrvz said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3025446#Comment_3025446
Nah camping is far more obnoxious than eating a 5 seconds DS stun because you tunneled someone a bit too hard, I don't even care if they delete DH, DS and BT but then you also need to destroy facecamp for good and remove every toxic perks like NOED
You need to realize killer is a player too and having too many protections for survivors is just not fun or compelling gameplay. Killer already has too few options to choose to counter 4 swf. Honestly, even without perks 4 swf will win against 80% of killers just from looping and flashlights
I agree about NOED but they need to fix core gameplay before removing killers last chance
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You are 100% right and dh, ds, and bt make this game annoying as hell for most killers. I get that people dont like tunneling and camping but it is the only option for some underpowered killers and killer mains up against 4 swf.
Focusing on removing camping and tunneling will just make less people play killer
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I was also thinking about this not too long ago. Different game modes would do wonders for this game honestly
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I agree, they are making it extremely frustrating to play killer and it will only get worse. The way things are going there will be less people playing killer and we'll have a smaller variety being played than we already do.
Honestly at the end of the day i think it would be better if they just accept camping/tunneling will happen and stop trying to balance the game around having 2 survivors leave. Its supposed to be a horror game, no? Perks that give you tenporary invulnerability or guarentee an escape so that you can basically ######### on the killer defeats the purpose of that. This is not to say that killers shpuld be able to steamroll survivors, only that i think their ideas around rebalancing will hurt what the game should be trying to achieve - a consistent horror experience where a high degree of skill can help a lot - but not ensure a victory for 2 or more survivors as it currently does
Imo all they should be doing is severely nerfing the op survivor perks, making the underused killers viable, and remixing maps so that survivors cant just loop around a few familiar map routes