“Shoulder the Burden” needs to be nerfed, or the anti-camping mechanic needs to be removed
“Shoulder the Burden” at high MMR is becoming a serious problem. This perk is making organized SWFs practically invincible. Killer players are being punished for playing well, since this perk nullifies all of the killer’s good plays and all of the survivors’ mistakes. Did I play well and take down the survivor quickly? Shoulder. Did the survivor play poorly and die quickly? Shoulder. The only way to TRY to prevent getting Shoulder is by pressuring the hook up close, but anti-camping doesn’t allow it. Behavior has no way to win a match at high MMR without taking out a player quickly, and this perk in the hands of good SWFs—with 3–4 Shoulders—completely nullifies the killer’s chance of winning the match. Quite simply, the game is relying on SWFs winning matches not through skill, but through the repetition of Shoulder, DS, and DH. Either remove anti-camping so we can deal with Shoulder up close, or change this perk, or just allow it to be used only once on the same player—because it’s not fair to be matched against a killer knowing I’m going to lose to a team repeatedly using Shoulder The Burden. Behavior needs to stop balancing the game based on beginner or poor players, as this is bad for the health of the game for those who are already experienced. When something is balanced with beginners in mind, experienced players will take greater advantage of it. Poor players need to be encouraged to improve, and the game needs to be balanced with experienced players in mind; that way, things would be fair for both sides.
Comments
Shoulder wouldn't have been problematic if it was implemented as a one time use basekit element as Otzdarva suggested in a video before the perk even came out. Removing anti-camp is just not an option though, that just causes a much bigger problem to solve another
...ya know I still don't really GET why shoulder has suddenly become a problem now. It's been what? A year or 2? And it still does the same thing, still only really affects tunneling... like what really changed?...did tunneling somehow become MORE popular than it was already?...
Over time, more people realized just how broken this perk is. In SA, because streamers were racking up win streaks with 3–4 shoulder pads and 4 toolboxes containing new parts, this became an epidemic—almost every match now has SWFs with 3–4 shoulder pads and a toolbox to speed up generator repair. In other words, SWFs have toolboxes to speed up the generators and, on top of that, a perk on 4 survivors that delays the killer from eliminating someone from the match—do you understand how serious this problem is?
Anyone else think a good nerf would be making it so you can only use it on a survivor who has been hooked twice in a row?
That way Killer players aren't punished for managing their hook states, but are punished if they are genuinely trying to force one survivor out as fast as possible which is what the perk is designed to hinder. The perk would still be strong, but it would mean only playstyles that revolve around hard tunnelling someone out as fast as possible are the ones that get hit the most from it going off
Rather than a lot of cases where Killer is balancing hooks between two diff people, then suddenly one of them just gets a state back from the survivors you're not focusing too much on.
If this is how it's changed, I'd remove the expose from it. It feels like the only reason the expose exists is to stop people being able to freely hook dive with this perk and get away with it, rather than making the Killer want to target the person who used it. It could probably stay though idk.
See though, it really ain't. Reminder to the people that it TRANSFERS hook states. It doesn't delete them, it makes it so the unhooker has the hookstate.
Now assuming you didn't tunnel... what happens? Not much, a surprise living or death hook at best. What happens when you do tunnel? You end up hooking that single survivor alot more times.
Now for clarity I'm going to repeat this again: IT DOESN'T DO MUCH IF YOU DON'T FOCUS ON ONE SURVIVOR. "Delays the killer from eliminating someone from the match", so does SB, so does DS, so does DH, so does Overcome, A LOT of perks do this. This ain't special.
Like really people…your problem above is with the toolboxes and a unhealthy desire to tunnel, not shoulder.
Almost every match? I've played plenty of killer and I don't even know if I've ever ran into a team with more than 2 Shoulders. I've never run into a team of Shoulder's with OP toolboxes
Of course it makes a difference—I'd take two decisive strikes, not to mention the other shoulder hits.
I'm from SA. The difference between bad players in SA and NA is striking—there are way more of them in NA. It's no wonder that players from NA can go on such long win streaks.
How exactly are you determining this? What data are you even going off of? I don't know why there would be some huge difference between how many bad players there are, or why that is somehow relevant to Shoulder the Burden + Brand New Part SWFs. Unless your argument is that everyone in NA that doesn't do that must be bad at the game, which is just insane
I’ve been playing and following DBD since 2016. When I watch streams, I tend to watch more NA streamers to practice my English, and over time I’ve noticed that there are way more bad players in NA than in SA. If you ask anyone on the competitive scene in SA, they’ll all tell you the same thing. Maybe it’s because there are so many more players in NA and far fewer in SA? Maybe. When I or a streamer from SA uses a VPN to match as a killer in NA (because in the afternoon, the killer matchmaking queue takes forever, whereas in NA you get matched instantly), I notice—and they also comment—that it’s much easier to win in NA. It’s bizarre. If Momo, or any other competitive player from NA, tried to go on a win streak here in SA, they’d never get very far.
I don't watch “otzdarva,” but here on SA he's always getting made fun of for suggesting nonsensical perks and balance changes for survivors, because when we watch him play, he wins most of his matches—and, most bizarrely, he manages to win public matches without any perks, which is impossible here on SA. If he played here for just one night, he'd never suggest broken perks for survivors again.
i almost never see it. it may have been in play and i didnt notice the yellow coloring (i dont tend to pay much attention to hook stages) but i can only recall 2 matches i have ever seen shoulder be used and i play quite a bit.
So maybe because i havnt experienced it, i struggle to understand how its that big of a deal. i can see how in situations it can come in handy which is what its purpose is for but its still a hookstate on a surv is is now on stage 2 or death hook. I suppose a 4 man all running it would be rough maybe but they are still collecting stages.
…Read this again:
IT DOESN'T DO MUCH IF YOU DON'T FOCUS ON ONE SURVIVORIts the one survivor part you seem to miss.
Let me ask this: Are you tunneling?
If yes, shoulder is working as intended and making it very difficult to tunnel a single survivor out in that manner. If no, then shoulder is not really doing anything that would affect you.
Also if you'd please explain this:
I don't exactly know what you mean so before i make an ******* of myself could you please clarify?
Only people who want this nerfed are the entitled losers who love to slug and tunnel and cant handle something that counters that because the suck at the game. This is a learn2play issue because your bad at the game and want to cry to get something removed because your lazy.
No, the people who want it nerfed are competitive players with over 10,000 hours of gameplay who understand what needs to be changed in the game and what doesn’t. Instead of nerfing the killers’ strategies, Behavior should teach bad and “lazy” players how to play the game instead of just whining about anti-camping and removing the grab from the hook.
No, it makes the tunnelers cry and that's a good thing
It is the usual: Other things get nerfed and the goalpost gets moved further and further. Now Shoulder the Burden is currently then Perk which makes Killers lose games. The same Killers lost games because of other Perks before and if Shoulder the Burden gets nerfed, they will still be losing games, obviously because something else is at fault (or it is just good old SWF which is the scapegoat).
In their "argument" they often add "high MMR", even if we all know that "high MMR" is just random matchmaking. The people who complain about Shoulder the Burden will not encounter teams where it can it be problematic 99,99% of the time. But they demand Nerfs regardless.
Killer's goal is to kill, via tunnel or not they just do their objective. Survivors are also not punished for sitting on gen in killer's face to pop it. Shoulder The Burden allows scenarios where you have someone dead on hoook to completely vanish. If similiar perk works on killer's side like that one generator loses all progress if other is popped too quickly it would become immidiate complain
Shoulder is still very effective against non tunneling killers, arguably more effective than its primary use.
Let's say a tunneling and non tunneling killer each get 4 hooks against survivors A, B, C, and D. The tunneling killer hooks survivor A back to back, with survivor D using Shoulder to take their second hook state. Since this killer is trying to tunnel they're proxying the hook, so once that happens they can chase A or D, down them in one basic attack, and have a survivor on death hook. From there they can tunnel whoever they chose to hook, and if they're Jason or brought a Mori offering they don't even need to worry about survivor D having DS. In this case the tunnel out was delayed, but by 4 hooks 1 survivor is dead and another one is a hook state down.
For the non tunneling killer, let's say their first three hooks are on A, B, and C. Afterwards, they run into A again. This would put them on death hook, which means that even while going out of their way to not tunnel they would still force survivor A to play very safe afterwards to avoid getting sacrificed. However instead, survivor D recognizes this and uses Shoulder to take their second hook state. Since the killer isn't planning to tunnel they were most likely not proxying the hook, so they end up with 4 survivors with one hook state. None of them are close to being sacrificed yet so there's no need for any of them to play safe either, they are free to focus on pressuring gens. Shoulder being used once completely eliminated the pressure of the survivor getting found again, with no extra danger from the exposed due to the killer not wanting to proxy their hooks.
Would it not be fair to say the tunneling killer is more likely to win their match from here than the non tunneling killer?
One more example: A killer's first hook is on Survivor A, who has Deliverance. They seemingly lost their chance to activate the perk, however survivor D uses Shoulder to take their hook state. Now the killer has a choice, they can either tunnel and still prevent the perk from being used or they can ignore it and leave the opportunity to be punished later when they hook survivor A again. Is this not a situation where the killer is given incentive to tunnel?
If they make it so only survivor without hook stages can use shoulder on survivor who was hooked twice and gain 2 hook stages instead of one it'd be ok perk. But true is that it turns winnable games to unwinnable and only bias survivor main can deny it.
Again, not really.
For this scenario as the tunneling killer is focusing on A the rest have the time to focus on gens realitively unimpeaded and without fear. A tunneling killer would NOT switch to D (as per a high amount of basic definitions of tunneling) so the part of D having to worry is redundant. The only time wasted is getting the correct survivor to get the unhook as once the unhook happens the tunneler will almost usually stop whatever they were doing and rush back to the hook. This time would depend on positions but if this is a organized swf like the OP mentions, then it will be negligible as they can…well organize themselves to be where they need when.
For this scenario the survivors did not have all that time completely free and assuming that "playing safe" means being near useless. I've both been and seen people on death hook "play aggressive" so its not like it actually forces anything. This scenario the killer is basically spreading their attention around anyway so things would be pressured even if no one is on death hook and theres probably more time used healing or now theres multiple easier downs instead of them glued to the gens as the killer did pressure the others in that scenario. This is also assuming that the killer wouldn't proxy hooks, people freely do that without tunneling such as waiting for the unhooker and going after them, chasing survivors around said hook or nearby, etc.
Both these are also not even looking at the long terms after those hooks. How many gens would get done during each scenario? My money is on the first scenario would have more gens done while the second would have some with progress but fewer actually done.
The tunneling killer would be more likely to win regardless as thats kinda a big reason why people tunnel. Its easier to win doing it. In these scenarios however the answer is no due to the above mentioned long term.
A very specific scenario that the killer would have no way of knowing regardless? Thats a pretty poor example. And no, the killer isn't given an incentive to tunnel from THAT because they have no way of knowing if deliverance is in play or not.
The competitive players aren't crying about it at all , its just you bad players who resort to tunneling and slugging to get a kill because you have no skill to get one otherwise. The good players know when its used the hook state stays, just on another person and can only be used once. They are also smart enough to go after the person that just used shoulder of burden because they are also 1 shot and 1 hook state away. Stop making excuses for your bad play. Learn2play the game properly or quit dbd we dont need griefers in the game.
Actually they are punished if the pop the gen int he k1llers face because you can essentially get a free hit, stop making excuses and gaslighting people to cover for your griefing of players by tunneling because your bad at the game.
I mean they're not tunneling because they made a vow to only hook one of the survivors, they're trying to get someone out of the game as fast as possible. Unless the killer is a 4.4, both the survivors have equal hook states and will go down in one basic attack, so there's not much of a difference even for a tunneling killer.
I mean sure, nothing's forcing you to play safe on death hook, but I think its pretty self evident that the killer is gonna find it beneficial if they find a death hook survivor doing an unsafe gen. And to be clear, playing safe doesn't mean going afk on the outskirts of the map, but it does mean doing less protected gens or going for an unhook is much more risky. If you've seen any comp dbd, this is definitely something even the best survivor teams play around.
I mean yes the tunneling killer is likely pressuring gens less, but if we are indeed talking about a coordinated SWF shouldn't they still be rotating gens efficiently against the non-tunneling killer? I don't really see how they would be forced to spend more time healing against them either, without a particularly vulnerable survivor or a need to take hits there's no reason some of the team can't stay injured. I don't think the difference would be as great as you think, and at the end of the day 4 survivors alive at 3 gens is still a better position than only 3 with 1 gen left.
This scenario is actually a game I had a few weeks ago, someone getting Shoulder'd on first hook is a pretty big tell that they have Deli and want to get use out of it. I had the choice to break chase and try to hook them again, or ignore it and keep chasing. I don't like to tunnel personally so I chose the second option, and like I assumed once I later found her on a gen and hooked her again she used Deli to remove my hook pressure. The better play in that instance would have been to slug her out of course, but its something I wouldn't have even needed to consider if I just ran back to hook to tunnel her.
Yet when people complain about tunneling the more reasonable ones complain about literally being focused down and killed with no respite. Theres no switching, theres no breathing room, its chase hooked unhooked chased repeat till dead. The tunneler in these scenarios does not give a damn. Hell a possibility is once they use shoulder the killer manages to quickly hit them and then go for the injured unhooked leaving unhooker slugged. Thats also disregarding the amount of times i've seen killers chase a recently shouldered survivor. You'd think they'd be smart about it right? Its sadly often times no they are not.
It was a point of your scenario. You made it sound like they would skit around being less useful. "Playing it safe" makes it sound really not good as you need to take risks or everyone is likely to fall. And no i do not watch comp dbd as its a joke to me. For my curiosity what would be "playing it safe"?
Now correct me if im wrong but "gen rotation" means they finish a gen then move to the next important gen right? Said tunneler will protect those gens but stop once the unhook happens, hyper focused on the target, and likely be chasing around the hook area. Meaning that its much easier for survivors to rotate. Said non-tunneler wouldn't be running back to the hook (depending on players, often enough some will go back for the unhooker) and likely chase them off and around the area of importance and possibly break chases when smart to. Meaning its harder to rotate between gens uninterrupted and safer as various resources get used in that area. This also is why the occasional healing would be good here as a single misstep while injured leads to easy pressure for the killer.
Yet its a scenario no killer will know going into the match. They can worry about that scenario, they can worry about 4 anti-tunnel perks, the killer goes in blind as to what perks survivors have which means it does not give an incentive to tunnel. Ironically i've used shoulder on someones first hook for a variety of reasons ranging from they were an amazing looper to spite the quitters to simply help a friend in a swf.
I mean yes in normal circumstances one survivor is focused down until death, but when it's for the purposes of guaranteeing a win as easily as possible a tunneling killer is given the benefit of swapping targets if they think the Shoulder user is an easier target. And yes tunneling is incredibly unfun for a lot of players to experience, that's why I'm fine with Shoulder as an anti tunnel perk. My problem is that in its current state it affects non tunneling killers too, and since they're more likely to look for a new target after hooking the exposed doesn't benefit them like it can tunneling killers. If it only worked when a survivor was hooked back to back, the exposed effect could be removed and both problems could be addressed.
Playing safe would mean working on safer gens instead of less protected ones (even if doing so would create a less defendable 3 gen), having someone else go for an unhook even if it takes them longer to rotate over, and pre running earlier than they would otherwise. It's sacrificing efficiency for safety because getting found puts a lot of pressure on the whole team.
Rotating gens is more like survivors swapping the gens they're doing. If survivor A gets found by the killer and gets in chase, they may tell survivor B to come over to finish it while the killer is occupied. It's the same with an unhook as well, if survivor A is death hook they may tell survivor C to rotate over to unhook while they go to work on survivor C's gen. If the killer is spending time protecting the gen that still means at least 3 other survivors are free to work on theirs, so this does not necessarily mean gens will go significantly slower.
And yes of course the killer cannot know what perks survivors will bring, yet their existence is still something they need to worry about. The existence of DS may persuade a killer from tunneling even if no survivor in the match actually has it, which is a healthy effect on the game. Conversely the existence of Shoulder can create instances where they feel encouraged to tunnel since they'll be punished worse by it otherwise, which I feel is very unhealthy. It's like Fast Track in its heyday, perks that incentivize tunneling over spreading hooks are terrible for game.
It's the point when they switch that it doesn't really become tunneling to most, hence repeatedly stating that a tunneler doesn't switch.
I see shoulder as a autistic team perk. If you really want to help your teammate you take their burden and sometimes it's enough, sometimes not. It's not pure anti tunnel, it's just that it's current best benefit is anti tunnel. Regardless making it work on back to back hooks would make it a lot worse. Think if the killer went back and forth from survivors A and B. Survivor C has shoulder and can't use it to help either as the killer bounces between those two because it's not back to back and your left with something you can't even use for yourself. DS also runs into this but DS is also a pure self defense perk, can't use it on another.
Yet smart survivors would be taking risks regardless of hookstate. That guy on death hook finishing the gen in the middle of nowhere is a lot less valuable than the guy on death hook trying to finish a gen in the middle of a 3 gen. If the killer is in chase and they're closer to the hook than the other guys they take it. As for pre running... survivors already do that at literally the first sign of trouble unless that gen is finish able so I really don't see a difference. The sacrifice of efficiency for safety doesn't usually end well, atleast for the team.
Love how definitions change overtime. Why can't it just be called swapping? Personal ranting aside, both killers are protecting gens. It's just when a non tunneling killer is doing so they will usually chase around one of those gens keeping it relatively unworked on, especially if the survivors in question are injured, while the tunneler goes back to wherever they hooked the survivor, which could be nearby, could not. With the tunneler survivors wouldn't even need to rotate (I'm damn tempted to call it swapping) as again focused on that single survivor. Against the non tunneling killer the survivors would need to waste time doing this. The non tunneling killer would somewhat typically have 1 on hook and then be chasing another soon after, leaving a third survivor going to the save meaning there's temporarily only 1 survivor working. Once the unhook happens the killer is likely to get a new hook soon or already has and thus repeating the cycle. The tunneler works similar till the unhook where they drop everything and run back. This lets survivors (bar the tunneled SLB) get back to working quicker. It's not a huge amount no, but it's about not letting important gens pop. Like above, as killer I'm not gonna care if the corner gen pops first or 3rd because the others are easier to watch.
Conversely shoulder dissways tunneling because you might have to hook that survivor multiple times while everyone else has Deliverance. Maybe all the survivors have Shoulder DS DH and Deliverance. What then? Well personally I'd keep playing as normal because trying to worry about what ifs seems like an effort for insanity but it seems I'm apparently the odd one not worrying about what I don't know and making due with the situation at hand. It's funny how there's was a darkest dungeon colab and people can't use that mentality here despite the cosmetics I see. I know I'm asking for a lot but trust me, it's NOTHING like the Fast Track dilemma.
...on the note of darkest dungeon, do you happen to know where I go now to ask about missing cosmetics?