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What happened to the reasoning that got old DH nerfed?

1ettuce 1ettuce
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You guys have recognized before that perks that give easy free distance to survivors are a problem and don't have counterplay from a killer's end, so then why do you go on and make MFT and Dramaturgy? They could at the very least have SOME precondition or requirement like SB and Lithe, but no. All Dramaturgy requires you to do is press a button (sound familiar?), and MFT literally doesn't require you to do anything! In fact, because MFT has no cooldown, you can do with it near or on par what you could've done with old DH at loops, but over and over again instead of just once....

The only significant difference between MFT/Dramaturgy and old DH is old DH's i-frames, and I'm not gonna sugarcoat it, that was absolutely never the bigger issue. Although the i-frames part had its points where it was uncounterable, they were overall NOTHING compared to the sheer consistency of straight up extra distance. The only real situation I can think of where the i-frames were more useful than the distance was vs a nurse, but it's nurse, I'd much prefer nurse getting the short end of the stick over the rest of the killers, especially the already weaker ones, getting it.

So please, change MFT and Dramaturgy (and Overcome maybe? :3) and stop making stupid perks like this that just give survivors extra distance for nothing, they're terrible for the game and you guys should already know it based on your understanding of the problem with old DH.

Comments

  • Devil_hit11 Devil_hit11

    @1ettuce said:

    https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/WVWV3J3AZMX4/image.png

    You guys have recognized before that perks that give easy free distance to survivors are a problem and don't have counterplay from a killer's end, so then why do you go on and make MFT and Dramaturgy? They could at the very least have SOME precondition or requirement like SB and Lithe, but no. All Dramaturgy requires you to do is press a button (sound familiar?), and MFT literally doesn't require you to do anything! In fact, because MFT has no cooldown, you can do with it near or on par what you could've done with old DH at loops, but over and over again instead of just once....

    The only significant difference between MFT/Dramaturgy and old DH is old DH's i-frames, and I'm not gonna sugarcoat it, that was absolutely never the bigger issue. Although the i-frames part had its points where it was uncounterable, they were overall NOTHING compared to the sheer consistency of straight up extra distance. The only real situation I can think of where the i-frames were more useful than the distance was vs a nurse, but it's nurse, I'd much prefer nurse getting the short end of the stick over the rest of the killers, especially the already weaker ones, getting it.

    So please, change MFT and Dramaturgy (and Overcome maybe? :3) and stop making stupid perks like this that just give survivors extra distance for nothing, they're terrible for the game and you guys should already know it based on your understanding of the problem with old DH.

    i think i know what dramaturgy is about. i think they're testing some legion changes to see if you can dodge feral frenzy with haste effect. i can see some youtube highlight compilations of 360'ing killer with that perk. they're going back on their previous survivor changes.

  • 1ettuce 1ettuce

    @Devil_hit11 said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/383400/what-happened-to-the-reasoning-that-got-old-dh-nerfed

    i think i know what dramaturgy is about. i think they're testing some legion changes to see if you can dodge feral frenzy with haste effect. i can see some youtube highlight compilations of 360'ing killer with that perk. they're going back on their previous survivor changes.

    By "they're going back on their previous survivor changes" do you mean changing their mind about free distance perks? If so that is MAD unbased of them

  • Devil_hit11 Devil_hit11

    @1ettuce said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3481395#Comment_3481395

    By "they're going back on their previous survivor changes" do you mean changing their mind about free distance perks? If so that is MAD unbased of them

    yes. it is like playing 4 survivors that have 99% SB ready at all times.

  • 1ettuce 1ettuce

    @Uxoxe said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/383400/what-happened-to-the-reasoning-that-got-old-dh-nerfed

    Maybe the developers realized that if they want survivor endurance perk variety, they have to make endurance perks that are as good as Sprint Burst and Lithe. If you look at nightlight.gg, MFT is not seen to be as good as Lithe by the survivor community. If the survivor community starts using MFT significantly more than Lithe and Sprint Burst, then it may get nerfed. Dead Hard was nerfed because it was used significantly more than any other survivor perk, the developers gave the reason as above.

    That's not happening with MFT.

    My guess is Dramaturgy won't even see usage over 2.5% after it's 2 month release. It's far inferior to Sprint Burst, Lithe, Dead Hard and MFT. Dramaturgy is a bad endurance perk and a bad Plunder's Instinct perk, creating a "slightly bad" combo perk.

    By endurance I'm guessing you mean exhaustion? Also honestly, dramaturgy is a jack of all trades, not a master of none

  • jesterkind jesterkind

    I strongly disagree with your assessment of old Dead Hard, and the thing that made it problematic hasn't been replicated before or since.

    It wasn't just the distance, as any number of perks (Sprint Burst, Lithe, Balanced Landing) already gave distance at the time- in fact, all of them gave you considerably more distance than Dead Hard did. The problem was that the distance was a burst you could activate whenever and that gave you i-frames. Those i-frames are why this distance was so overwhelmingly, disgustingly broken, because it guaranteed that no killer in the roster could do anything to stop it, whatsoever. It didn't have moments where it was uncounterable, it just was uncounterable, period.

    That's why the devs, showing their understanding of why Dead Hard was so problematic, changed it to be a parry that gave Endurance, removing the i-frames entirely. They could have just removed the i-frames and kept the dash, which would've put it in a situation where it was only meaningfully uncounterable for a handful of killers, but they went the safe and smart route in giving it a new effect entirely.

    So, then, we have to compare that to these two new perks. Dramaturgy first, as it's the closet comparison: Does it give distance whenever you want it? In comparison to Dead Hard, yes, but only mostly. There is a wind up portion that old Dead Hard didn't have, but it's pretty short. You have to be healthy, but that's a health state requirement similar to old Dead Hard, so it's in the running to be compared to that perk. Then, we must ask the more crucial question: Does it render every killer in the game impotent?

    ...No. Haste is just Haste, it doesn't render you immune to any killer powers, let alone all of them. It also doesn't even really mess with any specific killers either, it's in a pretty fair spot. Cage's strongest perk, no doubt, but not overpowered and definitely not the same as old Dead Hard.

    Next, Made For This. Does it give distance whenever you want it? No, not in a meaningful way. Holding W with Made For This only gives you a moderate distance gain in a way that doesn't prevent a killer from using their power where applicable and will, inevitably, be countered by Bloodlust. Not nothing, to be sure, but not strong enough to warrant discussion, especially not in comparison to other Exhaustion perks. The stronger use of MFT by far is to use it in loops, where your smaller hitbox and increased speed make turning corners easier, and that's where we'll ask the second question: Does it render every killer in the game impotent?

    Again, no. It does mess with some specific killers more than Dramaturgy does, but the majority of killers can mindgame and M1 loop to counter it (though it gives the survivor an edge, as it should) and a majority of killers again have powers that directly respond to a survivor being harder to hit with an M1, because again, Haste is just Haste. It isn't i-frames, and it isn't even close to i-frames.

    While both perks can absolutely be debated, especially Made For This, invoking the spectre of old Dead Hard is just inaccurate here. Neither of them are close and they never could be because they do not contain i-frames, which was what made Dead Hard's distance free, reliable, and uncounterable.

  • Devil_hit11 Devil_hit11

    @jesterkind said:

    I strongly disagree with your assessment of old Dead Hard, and the thing that made it problematic hasn't been replicated before or since.

    It wasn't just the distance, as any number of perks (Sprint Burst, Lithe, Balanced Landing) already gave distance at the time- in fact, all of them gave you considerably more distance than Dead Hard did. The problem was that the distance was a burst you could activate whenever and that gave you i-frames. Those i-frames are why this distance was so overwhelmingly, disgustingly broken, because it guaranteed that no killer in the roster could do anything to stop it, whatsoever. It didn't have moments where it was uncounterable, it just was uncounterable, period.

    That's why the devs, showing their understanding of why Dead Hard was so problematic, changed it to be a parry that gave Endurance, removing the i-frames entirely. They could have just removed the i-frames and kept the dash, which would've put it in a situation where it was only meaningfully uncounterable for a handful of killers, but they went the safe and smart route in giving it a new effect entirely.

    So, then, we have to compare that to these two new perks. Dramaturgy first, as it's the closet comparison: Does it give distance whenever you want it? In comparison to Dead Hard, yes, but only mostly. There is a wind up portion that old Dead Hard didn't have, but it's pretty short. You have to be healthy, but that's a health state requirement similar to old Dead Hard, so it's in the running to be compared to that perk. Then, we must ask the more crucial question: Does it render every killer in the game impotent?

    ...No. Haste is just Haste, it doesn't render you immune to any killer powers, let alone all of them. It also doesn't even really mess with any specific killers either, it's in a pretty fair spot. Cage's strongest perk, no doubt, but not overpowered and definitely not the same as old Dead Hard.

    Next, Made For This. Does it give distance whenever you want it? No, not in a meaningful way. Holding W with Made For This only gives you a moderate distance gain in a way that doesn't prevent a killer from using their power where applicable and will, inevitably, be countered by Bloodlust. Not nothing, to be sure, but not strong enough to warrant discussion, especially not in comparison to other Exhaustion perks. The stronger use of MFT by far is to use it in loops, where your smaller hitbox and increased speed make turning corners easier, and that's where we'll ask the second question: Does it render every killer in the game impotent?

    Again, no. It does mess with some specific killers more than Dramaturgy does, but the majority of killers can mindgame and M1 loop to counter it (though it gives the survivor an edge, as it should) and a majority of killers again have powers that directly respond to a survivor being harder to hit with an M1, because again, Haste is just Haste. It isn't i-frames, and it isn't even close to i-frames.

    While both perks can absolutely be debated, especially Made For This, invoking the spectre of old Dead Hard is just inaccurate here. Neither of them are close and they never could be because they do not contain i-frames, which was what made Dead Hard's distance free, reliable, and uncounterable.

    take trapper as m1 killer. when your out of reach of the killer. you are invincible as survivor because killer cannot swing to hit you. you become vulnerable to the killer once the killer is in distance to hit you. a large amount of haste is invincibility vs a lot of killers. trapper cannot hit you when your further away from him. Other exhaustion perks give distance but they have predictable activation conditions for killer to avoid their value. the other exhaustion perks also tend to activate when the killer is not in distance to hit the survivor meaning that they are hit or miss. they're not perfectly reliable in every situation. They're only reliable in the situations they are designed to excel in. Dramatulogy excels in every situation and it will activate in every chase that the survivor is healthy in. It is guaranteed value exhaustion perk. MFT is also near guaranteed value but the guaranteed value is incrementally small. It means that it might not make a huge impact in the big picture unless survivor utilizes its incrementally small advantage to get a bigger time advantage through looping.

  • DaddyMyers_Mori DaddyMyers_Mori

    I don't consider this nowhere as bad as old DH.

    MFT is broken imo, but Dramaturgy seems fine to me so far.

    Reason is simple, it works only while your are healthy.

    At that point you didn't really commit and can easily drop the chase. Basically same as SB.

    It's weaker than SB, but easier to use and more fun imo.

    DH was used at point where you were about to end the chase and you already wasted time on it.

  • 1ettuce 1ettuce


    @jesterkind said:

    I strongly disagree with your assessment of old Dead Hard, and the thing that made it problematic hasn't been replicated before or since.

    It wasn't just the distance, as any number of perks (Sprint Burst, Lithe, Balanced Landing) already gave distance at the time- in fact, all of them gave you considerably more distance than Dead Hard did. The problem was that the distance was a burst you could activate whenever and that gave you i-frames. Those i-frames are why this distance was so overwhelmingly, disgustingly broken, because it guaranteed that no killer in the roster could do anything to stop it, whatsoever. It didn't have moments where it was uncounterable, it just was uncounterable, period.

    That's why the devs, showing their understanding of why Dead Hard was so problematic, changed it to be a parry that gave Endurance, removing the i-frames entirely. They could have just removed the i-frames and kept the dash, which would've put it in a situation where it was only meaningfully uncounterable for a handful of killers, but they went the safe and smart route in giving it a new effect entirely.

    So, then, we have to compare that to these two new perks. Dramaturgy first, as it's the closet comparison: Does it give distance whenever you want it? In comparison to Dead Hard, yes, but only mostly. There is a wind up portion that old Dead Hard didn't have, but it's pretty short. You have to be healthy, but that's a health state requirement similar to old Dead Hard, so it's in the running to be compared to that perk. Then, we must ask the more crucial question: Does it render every killer in the game impotent?

    ...No. Haste is just Haste, it doesn't render you immune to any killer powers, let alone all of them. It also doesn't even really mess with any specific killers either, it's in a pretty fair spot. Cage's strongest perk, no doubt, but not overpowered and definitely not the same as old Dead Hard.

    Next, Made For This. Does it give distance whenever you want it? No, not in a meaningful way. Holding W with Made For This only gives you a moderate distance gain in a way that doesn't prevent a killer from using their power where applicable and will, inevitably, be countered by Bloodlust. Not nothing, to be sure, but not strong enough to warrant discussion, especially not in comparison to other Exhaustion perks. The stronger use of MFT by far is to use it in loops, where your smaller hitbox and increased speed make turning corners easier, and that's where we'll ask the second question: Does it render every killer in the game impotent?

    Again, no. It does mess with some specific killers more than Dramaturgy does, but the majority of killers can mindgame and M1 loop to counter it (though it gives the survivor an edge, as it should) and a majority of killers again have powers that directly respond to a survivor being harder to hit with an M1, because again, Haste is just Haste. It isn't i-frames, and it isn't even close to i-frames.

    While both perks can absolutely be debated, especially Made For This, invoking the spectre of old Dead Hard is just inaccurate here. Neither of them are close and they never could be because they do not contain i-frames, which was what made Dead Hard's distance free, reliable, and uncounterable.

    1 i-frames weren't necessary to make the distance from old DH significant, like you said it can be activated whenever you want, and that's significant enough as it is. There's a reason why DH's rework scrapped the distance part instead of the i frame part. DH's distance was very much free vs all killers and reliable/uncounterable vs most without needing to consider i-frames 2 Bloodlust does not really counter MFT, it only counters it as much as bloodlust does what it does, and it does that even when MFT isn't being used, MFT will *always* make it take longer to catch up. 3 Holding W for distance with MFT is a bad idea, just like using old DH to get distance in a straight line, its value comes from using it around loops, where it can easily buy as much time as old DH would over the course of multiple loops being used

  • 1ettuce 1ettuce

    @DaddyMyers_Mori said:

    I don't consider this nowhere as bad as old DH.

    MFT is broken imo, but Dramaturgy seems fine to me so far.

    Reason is simple, it works only while your are healthy.

    At that point you didn't really commit and can easily drop the chase. Basically same as SB.

    It's weaker than SB, but easier to use and more fun imo.

    DH was used at point where you were about to end the chase and you already wasted time on it.

    I can agree that it probably won't be as bad to deal with, but free distance is still a design flaw that we should really be done with already

  • jesterkind jesterkind

    @1ettuce said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3481492#Comment_3481492

    1 i-frames weren't necessary to make the distance from old DH significant, like you said it can be activated whenever you want, and that's significant enough as it is. There's a reason why DH's rework scrapped the distance part instead of the i frame part. DH's distance was very much free vs all killers and reliable/uncounterable vs most without needing to consider i-frames 2 Bloodlust does not really counter MFT, it only counters it as much as bloodlust does what it does, and it does that even when MFT isn't being used, MFT will *always* make it take longer to catch up. 3 Holding W for distance with MFT is a bad idea, just like using old DH to get distance in a straight line, its value comes from using it around loops, where it can easily buy as much time as old DH would over the course of multiple loops being used

    In order:

    1: As I said up above, the only reason the distance was completely free and reliable was the i-frames. If you didn't get i-frames, a large number of killer powers would completely undo your attempt at making distance, and it separately wouldn't be immune to a handful of other killer powers like Trapper's bear traps either. It was the i-frames that made it reliable, when combined with the distance. The distance alone wouldn't have been as powerful by a very wide margin.

    2: Bloodlust counters MFT insofar as it makes the chase end quicker than if you didn't have Bloodlust, but that was really just brought up to support my argument that holding W with MFT isn't a good idea. Leading to...

    3: So, this idea that MFT would gain as much value as DH over time already kind of undercuts the idea that it's anywhere close to as bad or even comparable. Dead Hard did not need to happen over the course of multiple loops, where at any point you are vulnerable to killer powers and killer mindgames, it just gave you that time straight away, because it could not be countered or reacted to in any way.

    I'm not necessarily saying that MFT is completely balanced, though I personally do think that the 3% Haste on its own with its two restrictions is pretty fair. I'm saying that Dead Hard was a level of broken that MFT couldn't even dream of, and nor could Dramaturgy. This is true primarily because of Dead Hard's i-frames removing all reaction or counterplay from the killer, which Haste alone does not.

  • 1ettuce 1ettuce

    @jesterkind said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3481716#Comment_3481716

    In order:

    1: As I said up above, the only reason the distance was completely free and reliable was the i-frames. If you didn't get i-frames, a large number of killer powers would completely undo your attempt at making distance, and it separately wouldn't be immune to a handful of other killer powers like Trapper's bear traps either. It was the i-frames that made it reliable, when combined with the distance. The distance alone wouldn't have been as powerful by a very wide margin.

    2: Bloodlust counters MFT insofar as it makes the chase end quicker than if you didn't have Bloodlust, but that was really just brought up to support my argument that holding W with MFT isn't a good idea. Leading to...

    3: So, this idea that MFT would gain as much value as DH over time already kind of undercuts the idea that it's anywhere close to as bad or even comparable. Dead Hard did not need to happen over the course of multiple loops, where at any point you are vulnerable to killer powers and killer mindgames, it just gave you that time straight away, because it could not be countered or reacted to in any way.

    I'm not necessarily saying that MFT is completely balanced, though I personally do think that the 3% Haste on its own with its two restrictions is pretty fair. I'm saying that Dead Hard was a level of broken that MFT couldn't even dream of, and nor could Dramaturgy. This is true primarily because of Dead Hard's i-frames removing all reaction or counterplay from the killer, which Haste alone does not.

    1 Just because the i-frames countered powers specifically doesn't at all mean the distance wasn't free and reliable. Take any m1 killer, can easily DH at a loop to buy more time. Take a ranged killer like huntress, DH around a corner to break line of sight. Etc. No doubting that in that interaction are the i-frames more enabling, but DH when used for distance still was definitely the strongest and most consistent use of the perk, as a DH for invincibility in the open or whatever was easily countered by waiting it out, DH for distance had no counterplay in general, made stronger by the i-frames sure, but was easily useful in itself

    2 I've noticed MFT's value a ton while playing survivor and it honestly is pretty wild, I have no doubt that if old DH didn't have i-frames that MFT would be stronger, and even compared to old DH with i-frames I still think it's close because MFT really can buy you so much time at one loop, and can be used at every loop afterwards, and makes getting to that loop faster, etc u get the idea

  • sizzlingmario4 sizzlingmario4

    I’m not sure how I feel about Dramaturgy yet. The distance part of it is not as obnoxious as old Dead Hard was, but at the end of the day, it is still on demand free distance and I’m not sure that’s a good thing. I also don’t like that it can give you iridescent addons.

  • 1ettuce 1ettuce

    @sizzlingmario4 said:

    I’m not sure how I feel about Dramaturgy yet. The distance part of it is not as obnoxious as old Dead Hard was, but at the end of the day, it is still on demand free distance and I’m not sure that’s a good thing. I also don’t like that it can give you iridescent addons.

    Totally agree, probably won't be as obnoxious but still has that awesome thing that made old dh old dh, and idk how to feel about the addon stuff either, its definitely funny as hell but I do kinda worry some teams might just hide all game until they get like 50 BNPs and totally murder the gens, since the scream doesn't reveal your location I'm pretty sure

  • DaddyMyers_Mori DaddyMyers_Mori

    @1ettuce said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3481751#Comment_3481751

    Totally agree, probably won't be as obnoxious but still has that awesome thing that made old dh old dh, and idk how to feel about the addon stuff either, its definitely funny as hell but I do kinda worry some teams might just hide all game until they get like 50 BNPs and totally murder the gens, since the scream doesn't reveal your location I'm pretty sure

    How does it work with Calm spirit?

    Could we just hide around map for 10 minutes and hoard items?

    It will be hell for a killer, but sounds fun.


    Dramaturgy, Vigil, Calm Spirit

    One survivor with Distortion to check for aura perks.

    Rest can tell with fixated or urban to hide more. Or just use some meta perk....

  • 1ettuce 1ettuce

    @DaddyMyers_Mori said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3481757#Comment_3481757

    How does it work with Calm spirit?

    Could we just hide around map for 10 minutes and hoard items?

    It will be hell for a killer, but sounds fun.

    I think it straight up just makes you scream without revealing your location or doing anything else lol but I could be wrong

  • DaddyMyers_Mori DaddyMyers_Mori

    @1ettuce said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3481774#Comment_3481774

    I think it straight up just makes you scream without revealing your location or doing anything else lol but I could be wrong

    Yeah, but will you scream with calm spirit, which makes you not scream?

  • GrimReaperJr1232 GrimReaperJr1232

    @Uxoxe said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/383400/what-happened-to-the-reasoning-that-got-old-dh-nerfed

    Maybe the developers realized that if they want survivor endurance perk variety, they have to make endurance perks that are as good as Sprint Burst and Lithe. If you look at nightlight.gg, MFT is not seen to be as good as Lithe by the survivor community. If the survivor community starts using MFT significantly more than Lithe and Sprint Burst, then it may get nerfed. Dead Hard was nerfed because it was used significantly more than any other survivor perk, the developers gave the reason as above.

    That's not happening with MFT.

    My guess is Dramaturgy won't even see usage over 2.5% after it's 2 month release. It's far inferior to Sprint Burst, Lithe, Dead Hard and MFT. Dramaturgy is a bad endurance perk and a bad Plunder's Instinct perk, creating a "slightly bad" combo perk.

    Lithe has been in the game for years and comes from one of (if not the) most popular survivors in the game. MFT is a month old. Yet, they're already comparable.

  • 1ettuce 1ettuce

    @DaddyMyers_Mori said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3481776#Comment_3481776

    Yeah, but will you scream with calm spirit, which makes you not scream?

    Oh I believe you don't

  • adaw0ng adaw0ng

    Yes I honestly can't wait for them to release a perk that gives 1% totem cleansing speed after doing 1 generator, unhooking 1 team mate and getting 3 tokens in chase. I bet a lot of people would find it fun to use and would bring some changes to the meta. Looking forward to it!

  • 1ettuce 1ettuce

    @DrKetchup said:

    There was no true reasoning to start with. If it were then they would have addressed the root problem, which is Shift W. The actual reason they did the change is because killers have quit en masse after the so-called "meta change" patch, where developers claimed to have changed both survivor and killer meta. This was a lie, adding meta perks base kit for survivors such as BT, the 10% haste, the survivor info hud, perks like unbreakable which were meta, never got changed, DS got nerfed but a way overpowered version of the perk was introduced in the form of OTR. And then they threw a bone to the killers, giving them 2 stacks of STBFL basekit, slapped 10 seconds on gens, but at the same time nerfed EVERY regression perk into the ground.

    Idk what 99% of that text block has to do w this but to the 1% that does yes there was, the reasoning is right there in the picture I attatched

  • 1ettuce 1ettuce

    @adaw0ng said:

    Yes I honestly can't wait for them to release a perk that gives 1% totem cleansing speed after doing 1 generator, unhooking 1 team mate and getting 3 tokens in chase. I bet a lot of people would find it fun to use and would bring some changes to the meta. Looking forward to it!

    what ru talking about lol

  • fulltonon fulltonon

    Honestly being forced to stay healthy is good enough restriction, as long as it won't make 150% happen...

  • adaw0ng adaw0ng

    @1ettuce said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3481871#Comment_3481871

    what ru talking about lol

    Let perks be fun to use. You're literally asking to change even the new Nic Cage perk already and OVERCOME of all things. Most people just want to have a quirky silly time with this game. You're tired of perks such as DH, MFT, etc etc etc, and I get it and understand that, others are going to tell you they're tired of Nurse, Blight and Wesker and we are going to go anywhere. Just play whatever is fun for you and let others have fun as well. People complain about killers being boring to play and not strong, but if you make all survivor perks boring nobody is going to play the game because survivor perks + chase is what makes the game appealing for them. Like if survivor perks for chase keep getting nerfed, everybody is going to resort to gen perks, and then complain about gen rush because "omg all survivors bring gen perks now".

    MFT. Is. Okay. As. Is. Period. Just ask for new killer perks to counter it more directly, that sure needs to be implemented, but asking for perks to get nerfed like that is just going to turn the game boring for those who still find it entertaining and fun.

  • 1ettuce 1ettuce

    @adaw0ng said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3481890#Comment_3481890

    Let perks be fun to use. You're literally asking to change even the new Nic Cage perk already and OVERCOME of all things. Most people just want to have a quirky silly time with this game. You're tired of perks such as DH, MFT, etc etc etc, and I get it and understand that, others are going to tell you they're tired of Nurse, Blight and Wesker and we are going to go anywhere. Just play whatever is fun for you and let others have fun as well. People complain about killers being boring to play and not strong, but if you make all survivor perks boring nobody is going to play the game because survivor perks + chase is what makes the game appealing for them. Like if survivor perks for chase keep getting nerfed, everybody is going to resort to gen perks, and then complain about gen rush because "omg all survivors bring gen perks now".

    MFT. Is. Okay. As. Is. Period. Just ask for new killer perks to counter it more directly, that sure needs to be implemented, but asking for perks to get nerfed like that is just going to turn the game boring for those who still find it entertaining and fun.

    1 Chase perks can exist and be fun without having unfair designs like MFT and Dramaturgy have, unless your only way of having fun is winning ig, so I'm not at all asking for the perks to not "be fun to use" 2 Just because you say MFT is okay as is doesn't make it true lol, even if you add a period, and no let's not just release more bandaid anti exhaustion perks unless we wanna keep trying anti tunnel to perks? Which I don't think we wanna do

  • GrimReaperJr1232 GrimReaperJr1232

    @1ettuce said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3481780#Comment_3481780

    Screw lithe

    Well that's random.

    I was just saying that it speaks volumes of MFT's strength when it's a month old, yet is already comparable to an old, easy to use, and widely accessible Exhaustion perk already.

  • 1ettuce 1ettuce

    @GrimReaperJr1232 said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3481867#Comment_3481867

    Well that's random.

    I was just saying that it speaks volumes of MFT's strength when it's a month old, yet is already comparable to an old, easy to use, and widely accessible Exhaustion perk already.

    oh. gotcha

  • nars nars

    (it only matters after its broken for 5 years)

  • AetherBytes AetherBytes

    Dramaturgy is fine, it's a wacky perk that doesn't give much distance and can seriously harm a player if used wrong

  • 1ettuce 1ettuce

    @AetherBytes said:

    Dramaturgy is fine, it's a wacky perk that doesn't give much distance and can seriously harm a player if used wrong

    Gives 2 extra meters of distance (same or near old DH's extra distance), has a chance to do it again, and 12s exposed is honestly is nothing

  • AetherBytes AetherBytes

    @1ettuce said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3482001#Comment_3482001

    Gives 2 extra meters of distance (same or near old DH's extra distance), has a chance to do it again, and 12s exposed is honestly is nothing

    doesnt have I frames during the dash, can force you to drop your item, and if used for distance to grab off hook at the last moment can make you scream and let go.

  • adaw0ng adaw0ng

    @1ettuce said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3481956#Comment_3481956

    1 Chase perks can exist and be fun without having unfair designs like MFT and Dramaturgy have, unless your only way of having fun is winning ig, so I'm not at all asking for the perks to not "be fun to use" 2 Just because you say MFT is okay as is doesn't make it true lol, even if you add a period, and no let's not just release more bandaid anti exhaustion perks unless we wanna keep trying anti tunnel to perks? Which I don't think we wanna do

    I don't care about winning, I care about having a fun time. Looks like all the people whining and crying over MFT want to win instead.

    Everything in this game has been a band-aid addition when a problem has emerged. From Nurse who was made because they could not figure out how to balance maps and loops back in the day (when there were actual infinites and stuff) until today. So MFT does not need a nerf, it needs a more direct counter even though there are killers that counter with addons, and some killer perks as well. It's really not that serious.

  • adaw0ng adaw0ng

    @Uxoxe said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3482165#Comment_3482165

    If some people want to be competitive and play meta perks, like Windows of Opportunity and MFT, then that's just as valid as people wanting to play fun perks like Red Herring, maybe even more so. Because if you play fun perks that reduce your chances of winning, you are also causing the game to be lost for your teammates, who may want to win the game.

    Playing meme perks is somewhat akin to players who DC. You're placing your enjoyment over the enjoyment of your teammates.

    Now if you were playing a 4-man SWF, where everyone was playing meme perks, like Nic Cage's perks that reduce your chances of winning, then that's fine.

    I don't know what am I supposed to do with this information

  • GrimReaperJr1232 GrimReaperJr1232

    @Uxoxe said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3482281#Comment_3482281

    I reread your post and I think you meant killers were whining to get MFT nerfed because they want to win. When I first read it, I thought you were saying survivors were whining, because they didn't want it nerfed, because they wanted to win.

    I do think whining to nerf perks, just because a person doesn't want to deal with them, is annoying. There's a lot of perks that just didn't need nerfed, but the forums kept whining about them until they were nerfed. For example, the last nerf to Dead Hard just wasn't needed.

    And you lost me completely. I don't know how you can actually defend a perk like Dead Hard.

  • 1ettuce 1ettuce

    @adaw0ng said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3481965#Comment_3481965

    I don't care about winning, I care about having a fun time. Looks like all the people whining and crying over MFT want to win instead.

    Everything in this game has been a band-aid addition when a problem has emerged. From Nurse who was made because they could not figure out how to balance maps and loops back in the day (when there were actual infinites and stuff) until today. So MFT does not need a nerf, it needs a more direct counter even though there are killers that counter with addons, and some killer perks as well. It's really not that serious.

    1 Just because bandaids have been brought into the game doesnt make that a good thing 2 So yeah, MFT still needs a nerf, I say that literally from a survivor perspective since that's the only role I can really notice the effect

  • 1ettuce 1ettuce

    @AetherBytes said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3482029#Comment_3482029

    doesnt have I frames during the dash, can force you to drop your item, and if used for distance to grab off hook at the last moment can make you scream and let go.

    1 Doesnt matter that it doesnt have i frames during the dash, as that wasnt old DHs biggest problem 2 jhardly matters that it can force you to drop your item especially when it can give you a commodious with a bnp 3 that last point is just so niche and irrelevant when the usage will be either mid chase or for item farming 99% of the time

  • adaw0ng adaw0ng

    @1ettuce said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3482165#Comment_3482165

    1 Just because bandaids have been brought into the game doesnt make that a good thing 2 So yeah, MFT still needs a nerf, I say that literally from a survivor perspective since that's the only role I can really notice the effect

    It's how this game and so many others work, and it's fine because it helps to create counters and metas that can be switched, it's not that hard to accept that. Not everything that is strong needs a nerf, sometimes like in this case it just need a new addition that will counter it even better than what is there already in the game. You guys just love acting like the fun police, and it shows that you don't even enjoy the game at this point. Sucks for you! Cheers and good luck :)

  • adaw0ng adaw0ng

    @Uxoxe said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3482281#Comment_3482281

    I reread your post and I think you meant killers were whining to get MFT nerfed because they want to win. When I first read it, I thought you were saying survivors were whining, because they didn't want it nerfed, because they wanted to win.

    I do think whining to nerf perks, just because a person doesn't want to deal with them, is annoying. There's a lot of perks that just didn't need nerfed, but the forums kept whining about them until they were nerfed. For example, the last nerf to Dead Hard just wasn't needed.

    People just love asking for nerfs for perks instead of new ones to counter those, then complain that "omg [role] has not good perks, it's boring". Instead of that just ask for base mechanics to get nerfed, such as map designs or whatever. This community is just bored of the game and wants everything nerfed because they don't know how to cope with the nature of the game and want it to be something it was never meant to be and the devs have said so many times they don't want the game to go in that direction. Like just find something else to do at that point and stop whining on the internet about a videogame.

  • 1ettuce 1ettuce

    @adaw0ng said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3482416#Comment_3482416

    It's how this game and so many others work, and it's fine because it helps to create counters and metas that can be switched, it's not that hard to accept that. Not everything that is strong needs a nerf, sometimes like in this case it just need a new addition that will counter it even better than what is there already in the game. You guys just love acting like the fun police, and it shows that you don't even enjoy the game at this point. Sucks for you! Cheers and good luck :)

    1 Just bc its how the game work doesnt mean thats a good thing lmao 2 "Not everything that is strong needs a nerf" ok but everything thats busted does so....you could keep saying its fine but youre genuinely providing 0 reasoning as to why and fr calling me the "fun police" now just because I think a busted perk needs a nerf (nothing to do with fun) lol

  • mca240 mca240

    @1ettuce said:

    https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/WVWV3J3AZMX4/image.png

    You guys have recognized before that perks that give easy free distance to survivors are a problem and don't have counterplay from a killer's end, so then why do you go on and make MFT and Dramaturgy? They could at the very least have SOME precondition or requirement like SB and Lithe, but no. All Dramaturgy requires you to do is press a button (sound familiar?), and MFT literally doesn't require you to do anything! In fact, because MFT has no cooldown, you can do with it near or on par what you could've done with old DH at loops, but over and over again instead of just once....

    The only significant difference between MFT/Dramaturgy and old DH is old DH's i-frames, and I'm not gonna sugarcoat it, that was absolutely never the bigger issue. Although the i-frames part had its points where it was uncounterable, they were overall NOTHING compared to the sheer consistency of straight up extra distance. The only real situation I can think of where the i-frames were more useful than the distance was vs a nurse, but it's nurse, I'd much prefer nurse getting the short end of the stick over the rest of the killers, especially the already weaker ones, getting it.

    So please, change MFT and Dramaturgy (and Overcome maybe? :3) and stop making stupid perks like this that just give survivors extra distance for nothing, they're terrible for the game and you guys should already know it based on your understanding of the problem with old DH.

    Overcome is fine as is. You’re exhausted after activation.

    I haven’t played the PTB but Dramaturgy at least isn’t consistent regarding its outcome.

    Made For This is just busted and should be removed from the game. I have even stopped using it as survivor because of how unfair it is toward non S-tier killers.

  • DrDucky DrDucky

    @Devil_hit11 said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/383400/what-happened-to-the-reasoning-that-got-old-dh-nerfed

    i think i know what dramaturgy is about. i think they're testing some legion changes to see if you can dodge feral frenzy with haste effect. i can see some youtube highlight compilations of 360'ing killer with that perk. they're going back on their previous survivor changes.

    Why in the world would they make a perk to test against specifically legion?

  • 1ettuce 1ettuce

    @mca240 said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/383400/what-happened-to-the-reasoning-that-got-old-dh-nerfed

    Overcome is fine as is. You’re exhausted after activation.

    I haven’t played the PTB but Dramaturgy at least isn’t consistent regarding its outcome.

    Made For This is just busted and should be removed from the game. I have even stopped using it as survivor because of how unfair it is toward non S-tier killers.

    1 Overcome is not fine as is I could not care less that it makes you exhausted, its a braindead and boring perk 2 Dramaturgy is consistent enough since it will always give you the initial haste, and no matter what happens after that you'll almost certainly be fine

  • 1ettuce 1ettuce

    @ImTheOneWhoChases said:

    Are you seriously comparing the outrageously OP og DH to mft's 3%? First of all. The is a pre-requsite to mft. You have to be injured, therefore one hit! Dramaturgy on the other hand yes. You're right. But you can say the same about sprint burst being on 99%. It's an risk/reward exhaustion perk. Very risky at that. That's. How come you can tolerate sprint burst and lithe but not dramaturgy? How is 3% the problem anyway? You killers get DH and healing nerfed and now you complain about 3%?! Jist wait a bit longer. Literally dude. The strong part of the perk is the endurance it gives without penalty, not the 3%

    1 You have to be injured for DH too so nice try lmao 2 You simply can't always have SB 99, unless you do a lot of walking which makes it less valuable 3 I don't tolerate sb and lithe, but that's a whole other conversation that I don't feel like having esp since they aren't free like dramaturgy mft and old dh 4 The 3% part is INSANELY strong, dont be fooled

  • 1ettuce 1ettuce

    @ImTheOneWhoChases said:

    Free distance perks? Why don't you mention sprint burst? Lithe?

    I hate them but they are at least very much less free than pressing a button or doing nothing, so I don't mind not getting into them since ik ppl will defend them w their lives

  • DaddyMyers_Mori DaddyMyers_Mori

    @ImTheOneWhoChases said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3483570#Comment_3483570

    mtf costs you a health state, thats the trade.

    It doesn't cost you anything.

    No mither and For the people costs you health state.

  • 1ettuce 1ettuce

    @ImTheOneWhoChases said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3483570#Comment_3483570

    mtf costs you a health state, thats the trade.

    It doesn't "cost you a health state" in any worse way than old dh lol

  • adaw0ng adaw0ng

    @1ettuce said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3483105#Comment_3483105

    1 Just bc its how the game work doesnt mean thats a good thing lmao 2 "Not everything that is strong needs a nerf" ok but everything thats busted does so....you could keep saying its fine but youre genuinely providing 0 reasoning as to why and fr calling me the "fun police" now just because I think a busted perk needs a nerf (nothing to do with fun) lol

    1. disagree 2. done discussing with you because it's really obnoxious how you number everything like if you were lecturing anybdoy. best of luck, and hope you get better at the game or at least enjoy it! xoxo
  • 1ettuce 1ettuce

    @adaw0ng said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3483473#Comment_3483473

    1. disagree 2. done discussing with you because it's really obnoxious how you number everything like if you were lecturing anybdoy. best of luck, and hope you get better at the game or at least enjoy it! xoxo

    XDDDDDDDDDDDDDD it sure is the end of the world that I number things, im not the one who needs to get better when you have zero backings to your arguments 👍

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