pig needs buffs honestly
Its like taking a hammer and nail to the pig only, there is no nail and you keep hammering a non existent nail. Like you nerf pig so many times. Like no sloppy butcher when ambush? like what? and the pig skillchecks arent hard at all. I suggest to make them really hard. like maybe brand new part difficult.
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But normally they can still do that...even if it's not activated.
This is the much more eloquent way of putting it.
They can. And when they do that, they're not doing a generator, which is what you want from the RBT.
Ahh I understand now. But even if they did a gen, they cannot do anything other until they get rid of it, even in end game. So it still helps you there.
Backfired? I think it did exactly what it's supposed to do, put the survivors on a timer.
"The trap activated, now you gotta search the 4 boxes in 2:30 minutes, that's 38 seconds per box, that's ok"
"Whoops, tempered timer... only 2 minutes, meaning 30 sec per box, still ok"
"Whoops, there's 5 boxes... you have 24 seconds per box. Good luck"
Tell me if this isn't stronger than anything the pig has currently?
I am fully on board with making Rule Set No.2 either lower rarity or base kit, same with Last Will, however, I'm not so sure about about any other changes to her the directly relate to stats or extra effects.
I don't know how I can word this any more clearly, but both require you to take off the trap. That'll take the same time no matter what. Only difference is, Rule Set no. 2 usually means they'll do a generator first. Meanwhile without it, they immediately go and search boxes, giving you a chance to build up more pressure to prevent generators from going off in the meantime.
Shortest version I can possibly write: You can't unfinish a generator.
Sorry for bothering you, again! I just love discussing with a developer, and hearing your reasoning! :)
The issue is that the two and a half minutes it takes for the RBT to go off gives the survivors enough time to take off their trap.
Maybe, but 2:30 can possibly get them killed if they aren't careful. There have been plenty of times where I did a generator, and then the timer is what ultimately got me killed (either by the killer or by the trap itself).
Give it a chance, test it on the PTB (with a new RSN2 to take its place). If it doesn't work, you can always try later, I want y'all to get out of your comfort zone and go crazy! :)
I fully support you 😍
is there any chance we can get @Almo's opinion on Rules Set No. 2 basekit? she is queen of the pig mains after all.
It's possible, but quick math time.
150 seconds, 4 boxes. 150 / 4 = 37.5 seconds per box.
A box takes 12 seconds to search. 37.5 - 12 = 25.5 seconds to get to the next box.
You move at 4.0m/s. 4 x 25.5 = 102m.
As long as each box is within 102m of the last one (and that's wicked far), you'll be able to do it in time. This is assuming the absolute worst case scenario and your key is in the last box you check.
And the same for tampered timer:
120, 4 boxes. 120 / 4 = 30 seconds per box.
30 - 12 = 18 seconds to get to the next box.
4 x 18 = 72m
As long as the boxes are within 72m, you're fine. Little tighter, but still very doable. (Tampered Timer or + Jigsaw's Sketch works out to the same time per box.)
So ultimately, it's still probably not going to kill them anyway unless they're really unlucky. For fun, let's just do TT + JS.
120 / 5 = 24
24 - 12 = 12
12 * 4 = 48m
Each box needs to be within 48m (3 tiles). That's pretty tight timing. If you get unlucky (maybe another survivor does a generator while you're still on the hook), you're going to die. Yes it'd be a buff, but that would be absolutely awful for gameplay. You wouldn't have gotten outplayed, you just got unlucky because of someone else's mistake.
But like I said in the other comment, if they are gonna waste time taking the trap off, might aswell be when they have a timer and gotta go fast.
People already finish a gen before taking a trap off. Or try 1, maybe 2 boxes on the way to the gen.
But because they can see the auras, they have all the information about where they need to go and how to go about it. It's just too easy.
Without the auras you also limit the areas where the survivors could be, and conviniently, the areas they are likely in are the gens, which you are already patrolling anyway.
I still wanna test it on the ptb. It can't be done live because you can't test rns2 as base with only 1 addon space left
Unfortunately I can't comment directly things we may or may not be working on. I'll just say that when we do a pass on Pig's addons, we'll look at them all carefully.
well that wasnt as enlightening as i had hoped. thanks for stopping by and letting us know though.
I understand what you're trying to say, but that's assuming you have a straight line to the next box, and if the killer does not interfere with you.
The killer, even through they aren't supposed to go after survivors with traps, won't ignore you if they see you — you're not invincible when you get a trap on your head.
Therefore, survivors have to navigate around the killer and through terrain within 25.5 seconds per box without add-ons. There are tons of variables to consider when you think about travel time, but at the end of the day, RSN2 can really pressure survivors. :)
dont forget the possibility of a survivor being on the box you were headed towards. thats happen to me a couple of times.
This is true. But that would only exacerbate the issue of having TT + JS with RSN2 base kit. RSN2 being base kit alone wouldn't really break anything (although I personally wouldn't want it when I play Pig), but being able to take two add-ons to make the timer even longer would. Keep in mind that you only have about 12 seconds on average to get to that next box.
I definitely think it's possible to go too far in the other direction, where the trap becomes focused on killing people who aren't lucky rather than slowing down generators.
You can say the same about prayer beads, iridescent heads+ infantry belts, instasaw
It's something that requires 2 specific addons that is particularly hard to go against.
And pig's thing still depends on your luck
Would you also choose to add more stuff like that, though? I feel like the opinions on those things are already pretty split as is.
@Peanits Really... ? The ambush against a good player is a real .. uselessness. When I see pigg crouch in one structure, I run to another structure making the ambush useless. Seriously scorpionz is good with pigg or ... does he face situational players who ... don't know how to fight pigg? Actually, pigg is in a real endless pit even if we think that a high level player will take him to the highest level and get 4k all the games ... which player does Scorpionz face? Because really .. the ambush of pigg is useless.
The same survivors as anyone else. He's got about 7,300 hours in the game. He's bound to come across some who know what they're doing and some that don't, just like everyone else.
He's live right now if you'd like to take a look.
EDIT: Okay, not live anymore.
I think they are fun. They are also fair. And so is this.
All you need to do to counter it, is find 1 box before doing a gen. Or not be so unlucky that the key is in the last box and there we go. All clear.
The pig is already using 2 addons to increase her chances of this specific thing getting you, it shouldn't be simple to beat it.
And it's 1-2 minutes where you were running around the map not doing any gens and being really loud.
And if it still sounds too powerful, make the timer go slower when searching a box.
However, the survivor is voluntarily, by doing a generator, taking the risk of the trap potentially killing them either directly or indirectly.
That's why RSN2 benefits the Pig because the survivors either waste time finding a box or do a generator and risk getting killed.
Developers. When you talk about survivors, you are based on novice players. Why do you refer to a top player when talking about killers? Many killer players are not him.
I think that's more of an unfun factor rather than an OP factor. If these add-ons were made in a way to be more interactive, then I don't think most survivors would mind in my opinion.
For example, iridescent hatchets are comparable to a FPS sniper — no one likes to be on the receiving end of a headshot (sniper headshots are usually oneshots).
Therefore, my idea to make iridescent hatchets more fun is to make them a "One in the Chamber" add-on. If you miss, you will have to refill at a locker, and if you hit someone, you will deal 1 health state worth of damage and you won't have to refill. :)
The only change I think Pig needs is to have her end game fixed. She was a great end game killer, but EGC destroyed her. Fix that, and she will be better off.
WOw, that is actually a good idea. I'd say that every time you hit with a hatchet, you refill hatches with an Iridescent. That would be a great shift. ENdless hatchets if you are good enough with them.
What I am trying to say is that, the ambush is very situational, it depends on the player you face, if the player (survivor) is a bad player, Scorpionz surely succeeds with his ambush.
I have 3,000 hours and I really consider Pigg a bad killer, in his current state, can it be good? Of course, but only with players of 200-500 hours.
Not specifically as strong as those, but there's a serious issue when most of the playerbase agrees that almost every add on she has is utter garbage
We've already acknowledged that stealth =/= map pressure. :P
Exactly, nobody thinks of all rank positions. Balanced or too powerful on high ranks means dismantling for low ranks.
Not really. Lots of other games seem to balance for high rank just fine.
@Peanits I don't think this has been asked in this thread (if it has been then I'm blind), but why is Pig getting these nerfs? As far as I'm aware, the general community consensus is that she's either balanced (Scorpionz's community, me, a lot of Pig mains I know) or among the worst killers in the game (most other people). I can understand not buffing her, but nerfing? Is it just for consistency purposes? Will she be getting buffed in the future to compensate? Thanks ^-^
We want the survivors be getting buffed too to compensate. They had benn nerfing us since months
I mean, to be fair, the reasoning behind the individual changes makes sense to some degree.
The EGC nerf was because they didn't want the situation of "need to escape before the timer runs out but can't escape because active RBT" to be so easily accessible/prominent for the Pig. Their solution may have been bad IMO, but the reasoning behind the change makes sense to me.
The "ambush is not a basic attack" thing is because they want there to be consistency between what procs certain perks/abilities and what doesn't. Granted, they are slow on changing that (I think Legion's Feral Frenzy attacks still proc STBFL), but it is something they are planning to do in time.
The "ambush no longer works with exposed" is an outlier from when they decided that they didn't want the ambush to be a basic attack. They don't want Killer powers to be able to function with Exposed unless that is the explicit intent behind the power or an add-on altering it.
The big problems in my eyes is that she isn't being compensated for these notable changes (and in the case of the EGC thing, the nerf was super heavy-handed and overkill).
@Peanits
Not sure if you'll reply, but I would like to ask some questions regarding Pig from you or another Dev honestly.
Would you ever consider changing the Ambush dash roar from the start to the end instead? I feel that by changing this closer to the end instead of the start she has more mind game potential for players who aren't as good with her.
Can we make her crouch be faster in the similar fashion Ghostface is? Honestly just a QoL change that would honestly be incredibly useful and fun.
Also can we reduce her terror radius back to what it once was? I never understood this change and would either like your input as to why it was changed to begin with or as to why it cant be changed back.
well right now, one of major issues with killer ranking system is that mori people doesn't count towards sacrifice emblem. Myers has similar problem with his tombstone add-on. you literally do not want those traps to kill survivors right now, so even if those reverse bear traps were intended to mori people, I think you'd need to rework the killer ranking system accommodate each individual killers play style. It's also problem with instant downs that chaser emblem doesn't count 2 hits. I know i remember some developer stream talking about reworking rank for killer vaguely, but I haven't really seen any progression on this front.
In any case, I wouldn't really touch those reverse bear traps. They're good for their intended purpose of stalling. Pig should get buffed movement speed on crouch, I wouldn't even see the problem if it was near max like 100%. It would allow her to get more first hits on unsuspecting player. I think she's heavily underrated killer because you can place traps on people, hook the player, chase another player and by the time you finish 2nd chase, BBQ will allow you to find the person with the trap who is most likely injured in front of a box. those traps while active are like -2 people repairing generators at all times. That is immense map presence, better then hex:ruin half the time. The reason why she isn't high-tier killer is because players can place pallets down early preventing you from playing the ambush mind-game. If the survivor isn't zoned out, they can also leave the loop. Some loops are too long obstacles, giving the survivor way too much time to react. There's just loads of counter-play that makes it too situational to use. I'm not sure what could be improved there, but maybe if it gave you more burst movement speed but kept dash distance the same, it might work on every loop. I'm not sure. If she ever got improved, it would be related to ambush charge and stealth.
I know these nerfs have reasoning behind them; I have enough faith in the devs to believe that they aren't just randomly deciding to gut Pig's power :P
My main problem is that the devs seem to be prioritizing consistency over balance. Pig's dash was still completely balanced while benefiting from basic attack perks (Sloppy, Third Seal, etc). Apart from "it's her power", there was no reason to nerf it. The dash even uses her main weapon, which irritates me. Nurse, Spirit and Hag are all far more powerful than Pig, and they all get to benefit from these perks, but not Pig herself?
And yeah, there hasn't been a lot in terms of compensation buffs. The things we have gotten are more QoL changes.
I don't mind the devs prioritizing consistency, personally (even if it is taking them time to do so). The problem to me comes from the fact that they are overall net minuses for a Killer that already needed improvements (IMO), and nothing seems to be done for her in the meanwhile.
I don't really have a problem with consistency in and of itself either; my problem is that it interferes with Pig's balance. So I guess we agree.